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Old 12-10-2008, 06:04 AM   #176
Buck
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Physics is absolute, but yes, biological evolution aside, technology has evolved, electronics have evolved, computers have evolved, communication has evolved, music has evolved, medicine has evolved and martial arts has evolved. IMO, Aikido has evolved from where a Sensei hand selects his students and lives with them and they serve him, etc. to where practically anybody can 'hang out a shingle' and teach their own 'style' of Aikido, but that's not Aikido evolving, is it? That's Aikido moving on a lateral plane, right? Imo, noone has evolved martial arts like Bruce Lee, by stripping away all the unnecessary movements and incorporating the most useful, creating a hybrid martial art, not needing improvement. Has anyone done that for Aikido?

I keep hearing the word paradigm, meaning- a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated ; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind.

I think this might be a misnomer as well. All thru history folks believed certain things, until other folks proved that to be wrong. The earth being flat being one example, thinking the Universe revolved around the Earth is another, to everything from gravity to electricity, to bloodletting, to hygiene preventing disease, etc None of that caused folks to shift a preset set of theories, etc from this to that, it completely changed all thought and understanding. Imo, MMA was an evolution ( by definition, adaptation to survive) of a hybrid MA that is superior in a 'no holds barred' situation.
Ok, take what you said in the 2nd paragraph that is what I am saying as a whole about Evolution, i.e. "everything from gravity to electricity, to bloodletting, to hygiene preventing disease, etc." Evolution is becoming a catch-all term.

Bruce Lee had a philosophy that was rejecting the rigid and focusing on flexibly and, fitting, adapting, to the situation at hand. I don't see this as Evolution, but rather innovation and divergance from the popular accepted philosophy. Thus, a variation of fighting- nothing new.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 07:25 AM   #177
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Ok, take what you said in the 2nd paragraph that is what I am saying as a whole about Evolution, i.e. "everything from gravity to electricity, to bloodletting, to hygiene preventing disease, etc." Evolution is becoming a catch-all term.

Bruce Lee had a philosophy that was rejecting the rigid and focusing on flexibly and, fitting, adapting, to the situation at hand. I don't see this as Evolution, but rather innovation and divergance from the popular accepted philosophy. Thus, a variation of fighting- nothing new.
What I think that GeneC was implying (correct me if I'm wrong GeneC) was that Bruce Lee changed MA, and that that change made his system one that survived and flourished and become an ancestor to today's MMA. So that is evolution. A change that results in a different level of fitness in the world. The change doesn't have to be in response to the environment (that would be Lamarckian); nor do temporally progressive changes have to go in the same direction (a longer beak might make available a cushier niche in the food chain, but too long a beak might see that bird species hungry again); nor, strictly speaking, does it have to be genetic (e.g. environmental bottlenecks, population genetics, migration, etc.).

So if a person's style of aikido was passed on to other generations (and that's how it works, right? Some aikido shidoin now are students of students of students of O-sensei. And it probably starts before you even hang out a shingle - I know that my aikido is informed by the people I work with in class and at seminars), then aikido can be said to be evolving.

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-10-2008, 08:07 AM   #178
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Look for a second though at the two competing analogies that are being (usefully) used in the discussion. Evolution and paradigm shift connote fairly distinct processes. Both probably are helpful in describing aspects of change in the martial arts.

MMA could be, for example, described in terms of a paradigm shift or evolution of training, tactics, and strategy in the martial arts. I would understand pretty much the topic which ever word you decided fit.

The discussion on the substance of the question -- where are we going -- seems to be doing just fine.

We have some people who see the evolution of (or "next-big-thing" in) Aikido as incorporating elements from MMA training (candidates include resistance training, sparring, and ground work).

Others see "it" in terms of the late lamented debate over Aiki.

The Utne Reader, in 2000, listed Aikido as one of the 100 most-groovy ideas of the 20th Century (okay they used a different word, same idea). What attracted people who presumably were mostly outsiders to martial arts was the aspect of Aikido of most interest to those who see focus on the martial art as a container for a more spiritual, transformative practice.

Let me throw in another mere analogy -- speciation. wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation.

People whose training goals and philosophy about the martial arts likely tend to group more together than with people whose goals and philosophy are far different from their own.

Will self-selection result in a splitting of lineages? (See you know what I meant.)

Time will tell, I suppose.

DH
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:04 AM   #179
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

No problems or issues with your experiences, as mine certainly do not invalidate yours....they simply mine.
that's nice. As you can imagine, I've encounter many folks in life who have different experiences in life and training, and yet my 1st hand experiences remain valid to me. I've discovered that my MA training has allowed me to maintain my center at such times. And MA has allowed me the strength to hear others ideas without having a feeling of 'threat'.

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There are certainly many ways to grow and experience life and martial arts as well.
Feels good to be in good company on this point.

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I think this is what makes having a discussion about an concept evolving such as aikido. It can be such a wide range of experiences for so many.
Thats what makes it interesting. If there was only one human answer and we all already had it we wouldn't be here problem solving and sharing together. At least, I wouldn't be. I'd be chewing on a turkey leg in my castle, drinking grog and generally knowing it all. Come to think of i, I must have the answer then..hahahahahah

Quote:
I think revolutions, trends, paradigm shifts, evolutions are hard to identify while you are in them. I think they are measured with the perspective of history or passed time.
Time will tell. But we'll be dead and some of the new crop of thinkers will be starting over with no reference to work already done just as some here are doing. What some describe as evolution is one step forward and two steps back. But that's part of the dance. I'm into enjoying the ride.

Quote:
They also tend to be categorical and general in nature. So in this respect on a interpersonal level it can be vastly different for every person.
Indeed, they do. But I look for pieces of conversation that are not. Keeps it all moving.....

Thanks for the thoughts.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:17 AM   #180
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
And it probably starts before you even hang out a shingle - I know that my aikido is informed by the people I work with in class and at seminars), then aikido can be said to be evolving.
Stands to reason. If you believe in evolution as a law of earth, then all things on earth are subject to evolution.

About the shingle, I have my own shingle out, yet I have no assertion that I know more than I did when i was simply training and not a dojo-cho. The configuration of my place in the dojo is different but my influences and training are still in the same stream. Although having my own dojo(s) has freed me to explore more territory and thereby subject myself and my students to more info, methods etc....for better or for worse; like all good marriages.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-10-2008, 04:29 PM   #181
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Will self-selection result in a splitting of lineages? (See you know what I meant.)

Time will tell, I suppose.

DH
David,

Ya' beat to da' punch, in the selection- self selection of Aikidoka.

Here is the spur.

What ever terms or theories we give to this action, this movement, called Aikido it has already created different schools of Aikido- both in thought and technique. That is a fact, and some people see that as evolution. I don't and here is why.

Yea, in terms of selection, we could make it fit, but is it the best fit or our we trying very hard to squeeze into clothes a size or two smaller to make us look trimmer. Is it evolution or something else.

The current different schools of Aikido are in my mind a result of a abandonment in part or whole from O'Sensei's original thoughts to do the samurai fame thing. Basically, that age old desire for fame and recognition that plays a huge part in Budo. No one could top O'Senesi so the idea then is to find another venue. And that would be to start your own school. Which entails, like the samurai (use as a catch all term) way of old, territory etc. I choose the latter base on history repeating it's self, and you can take the Japanese out of Japan, but you can't take the Japan out of the Japanese. So the other the schools are basically saying my way of Aikido is better (improved, etc.) then the original. Hang with me here. Don't get upset yet. It is the origin that I feel is important and will explain- kind of- why later, basically what is better to explain Aikido in terms of science than evolution.

The original theory of Evolution includes natural selection. I briefly touch on in some number of posts ago that in Aikido natural selection doesn't apply. If anything would apply under this umbrella would be artificial selection. Really, neither fit because of the whole heritability traits thing. I am not going into to more than that to save ware the eyeballs, I am only going to say is how many Aikidoka couples you know that have kids that do Aikido who marry an Aikidoka who then have kids that breed to the less common unfavorable heritable traits of Aikido. That is evolution in it truest form....right.

We would like to think Aikido evolves, it gives Aikido a status, an a superiority- playing one up keeping up with the Jones' with the Karate guy next door or another Aikido school etc. Aikido though is really a matter of sophistication, and not evolution. People evolve, and Aikido becomes more sophisticated. As a person evolves (synom. with better, improvement, developing etc.) the Aikidoka's abilities become more sophisticated, and hopefully the understanding of Aikido as well.

Aikido is highly sophisticated, it can be seen as a technology in its self. Something I think most Aikidoka see it as. And maybe that is what sets it apart, and not that Aikido can't or can evolve. I remember reading a little book prior to doing Aikido, which got me interested in Aikido. The book if I remember, cause it was many moons about, it discussed Aikido in terms of things like vector fields, and behavior psychology. I think it was a Ph.D. thesis published as a book. Hell, it was way over my head. But, what I could understand at the time was beyond the common martial arts books dealt with strictly hand-to-hand applications. This book dealt with explaining Aikido waza as a high science technology that I thought was revolutionary. The book I read was beyond that great little Judo book explains Judo in terms of physics. It was Aikido waza as its own field of science. There is that much material to research and explore with in Aikido.

In this light, looking at Aikido in terms of evolution pales if it fits. Aikido as a universal unit whether debated the existence of, or the degree of violence - that whole thing -doesn't matter if you look at Aikido as as its own science and technology. Heck for example, drop evolution and replace evolution with the String theory. How fascinating and expanding is that, how much more powerful is that! Wow, I all pumped up like Gov. Arnie to go and train.

Isn't that where the real discussion exists concerning the formatting of Aikido, not in the external i.e. as explained by evolution, but the internal (origins) as explained by the String theory. Doesn't that give us a better idea where Aikido should go and is developing.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 06:24 PM   #182
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Ok, take what you said in the 2nd paragraph that is what I am saying as a whole about Evolution, i.e. "everything from gravity to electricity, to bloodletting, to hygiene preventing disease, etc." Evolution is becoming a catch-all term.

Bruce Lee had a philosophy that was rejecting the rigid and focusing on flexibly and, fitting, adapting, to the situation at hand. I don't see this as Evolution, but rather innovation and divergance from the popular accepted philosophy. Thus, a variation of fighting- nothing new.
My 2nd paragraph is defining the word 'paradigm' ,which I find to be a catch-all term, used here to explain the evolution of MA and AIkido in particular, which I'm trying to say is a misnomer. .My point is that instead of a paradigm shift, old 'truths' were being proved wrong and real truths proven, forcing folks to completely
rethink the world around them, not just shift. Columbus was used to describe paradigm shift. The fact is that folks thought the Earth was flat and that Columbus would surely just sail right off. He sailed around and thought he landed in the West Indies! He was wrong about that, but DID prove that the Earth was round. Folks thought lightening was fire, 'til Ben Franklin proved it was electricity, etc.

Evolution is absolute, but even here, I think folks are confusing the biological aspect of evolution verses the "Industrial Revolution" evolution. I'm talking about the evolution of technology.

This is the evolution that we should be talking about, as that's the kind that MA applies to. Remember I said evolution is absolute in that the definition is the same- adapting to an improvement to survive. That's it. Adapting/improving to survive.

So, for Aikido, imo, the question is, what does Aikido have to do to adapt/improve to survive? The obvious answer is to go mainstream, but does folks want Aikido to do that? I can't say and I don't know if the "extension" program is right or not (seems to me third world countries need more food and medicine and leadership, not more Aikido), but I do feel that this America and there should be an American Aikido, separate from Japanese Aikido, run to appeal to Americans. Imo, the Japanese don't have the monopoly on good manners, repect and integrity.

Btw, Bruce Lee did alot more than reject the rigid and accept the flexible, by doing away with the old formalities and ceremony, but still commanded respect He studied every MA known to man at the time and found what worked on the street,in combat, and what didn't and rejected that that didn't. So, by definition his JKD was an evolvement, since he constantly proved over and over his MA was superior ( he used to go to tournaments and fight the winner of the tournament and beat them time and again) and his concepts led to the UFC and MMA, up and coming as one of the most popular sports in the world.

Btw a good example of a pardigm shift is this America moving from a Democratic Republic to Socialism/nationalism.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-10-2008, 07:04 PM   #183
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post

So, for Aikido, imo, the question is, what does Aikido have to do to adapt/improve to survive? The obvious answer is to go mainstream, but does folks want Aikido to do that? I can't say and I don't know if the "extension" program is right or not (seems to me third world countries need more food and medicine and leadership, not more Aikido), but I do feel that this America and there should be an American Aikido, separate from Japanese Aikido, run to appeal to Americans. Imo, the Japanese don't have the monopoly on good manners, repect and integrity.
Answer to your question is don't change Aikido, keep it original-refer to the String theory. What was the appeal of Aikido in the first place, original Aikido? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 07:08 PM   #184
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Why does one think Aikido is in the need of anything. There was this line in this Japanese samurai movie, I am sure it some common Japanese adage. It goes something like, a single arrow is easily broken, but together (as a bundle) they are very difficult to brake. Maybe Aikido shouldn't be thought of in terms of evolution. There is no need for salvation, well survival.
 
Old 12-10-2008, 09:35 PM   #185
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Ahhh, but it's the very nature of the Universe....everything is always changing. Nothing manmade is perfect and always has room for improvement. How many folks' dojo is bursting at the seams and have a waiting list? Why aren't Aikidoka winning the UFC? You know it only takes 3 generations to completely eliminate just about anything. Is Aikido losing ground with each generation? Everyone knows in order for something to survive, you have to get more of the next generation involved. Yes, maybe Aikido is gonna have to change to survive, or else go back into the shadows and become a forgotten art.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-10-2008, 10:24 PM   #186
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

What makes you think Aikido is in a place where it needs to survive. Everything in the universe exists in state of being more or being less at different points in time. There is your change. I could name the all the theory that could explain that better. It would be overkill.

Aikido will not die. And we assume the change you speak will have a positive outcome. But, that change you talk about could kill Aikido. And Aikido doesn't change, people do. That is the point of Aikido as I understand it, is for the individual to change. To evolve?

You must have over looked by earlier thread about Aikido as a string per the String theory. I think this applies much better to Aikido. That is the rub, what causes us conflict in a sense in this discussion is how we see Aikido, and not Aikido. I think I bring up a model for Aikido then evolution. The String theory is much more vibrant and alive, Aikido is a combination of physics stuff, not flesh n' bone stuff. That is stuff is us. I was saying Aikido is very sophisticated that it seems proper to assign it to an equally sophisticate theory that involves physics and not flesh n' bone stuff.

Am I trying to persuade people’s thinking? Yes, I am. From the idea of evolution being a poor fit where Aikido is concerned, and move to a high thinking, an evolved thinking that applies to Aikido, I feel, so much better. Lets get out of the Primordial Soup where other things are at. Aikido is more about say, the Big Bang, then how to knock heads.

Last edited by Buck : 12-10-2008 at 10:39 PM.
 
Old 12-11-2008, 04:42 AM   #187
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Ahhh, but it's the very nature of the Universe....everything is always changing. Nothing manmade is perfect and always has room for improvement. How many folks' dojo is bursting at the seams and have a waiting list? Why aren't Aikidoka winning the UFC? You know it only takes 3 generations to completely eliminate just about anything. Is Aikido losing ground with each generation? Everyone knows in order for something to survive, you have to get more of the next generation involved. Yes, maybe Aikido is gonna have to change to survive, or else go back into the shadows and become a forgotten art.
I have to agree with what Clarence is saying here...... I have noticed quite a decline in younger people wanting to take up aikido as a "defensive art" and now quite often get people inquiring about tai chi and is it similar to aikido? Generally speaking youngsters interested in "Self Defence" don't look upon aikido as a "real" self defence art and quite often quote and say that it looks ridiculous when you see it on youtube!!
The only enquiries I get these days is where can they find the nearest kickboxing club or do I do B.J.J. ? Or do you do M.A.A.?
When I ask would they like to give aikido a try?...... they now say is that the Steven Seagal stuff? When I answer that it is but not quite the same but you can enter tornaments to test yourself, the answer is "Do you punch and kick?" When I answer.... no we don't for competition, but we will and can teach you defences for those scenarios.... "How long will that take?" When you say about a year .... They are not interested!!
So I am sorry to say that I think aikido will get pushed to the side as something like the mock combat martial society's like the historic battle societies you find in the UK.
Judo which is a minority sport in the UK is still enjoying good membership.
Look at most aikdo dojo and you will find they are very small in numbers coming in compared to kickboxing and what have you clubs and sadly the many mcdojo's that you get around.....
I have now closed my dojo after 28 years of practice as I can no longer afford the financial loss associated with aikido...... Sadly this is not down to the the many keen students that I had and still have.
They are now in the process of trying to find a venue affordable so that we may be able to start up again and hope to invite anybody really interested in coming along to practice......
But I won't be running it!!! Thank God!....
I now intend giving my long suffering wife (who was an aikidoka for 15 years!) some well deserved holidays that we have had to sacrifice in the past for the sake of aikido......
Amen!!
I'll miss aikido but I won't miss being poor because of it!!

(Not unless somebody wants to set me up with a dojo)

Tony
 
Old 12-11-2008, 06:29 AM   #188
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Plastic flowers did not kill Ikebana.
The ballpoint pen did not kill Shodo.
Lipton did not kill Chado.
The AK-47 did not kill Iaido.
UFC will not kill Aikido.

 
Old 12-11-2008, 08:40 AM   #189
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Plastic flowers did not kill Ikebana.
The ballpoint pen did not kill Shodo.
Lipton did not kill Chado.
The AK-47 did not kill Iaido.
UFC will not kill Aikido.
No but "plastic" (for want of a better word) aikido will be more relegated to an obscurity only practised by eccentrics, spiritual types and those that can afford it........ and they will still be saying it is the "ultimate art"...... Well I suppose it is for those that need it to be that way....... different strokes.....

I can't really see it as being in the same category as UFC or MMA or whatever, as those in the "higher" echelons won't allow it to happen........

Shodokan aikido seems to be making some headway now on the international scene, but it has taken an awful long time and may become a "sister" sport to judo.....
It may be that eventually Shodokan might become an olympic combat sport when it can sort out its priorities and will most likely follow the same path as judo with all its ups and downs.......

Who knows for sure? Evolution in a way........?

Be interesting to see.......

Tony
 
Old 12-11-2008, 09:07 AM   #190
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Folks, let me say this, I've come home to Aikido. I love it and will study it for the rest of my life. I'm not saying UFC will replace Aikido, per se. I'm saying that already Judo is an Olympic event and UFC is infinitely more popular than Aikido. I'm just saying that unless Aikido evolves, it will become extinct. I suggest that in order for Aikido to survive, it needs to become more mainstream and by that I mean more appealing to more people. How? How about Aikido being the big umbrella, under which Traditional Japanese Aikido lives; ALL the different schools live; Sports Aikido lives; Aikido the Olympic sport lives; Aikido for kids; Aikido for seniors; and yes Aikido/BJJ and Aikido/Judo and Aikido/Tai Chi. Along with a great marketing campaign and Steven Seagal as a spokesperson (until hopefully another Aikido movie star comes up).

This is what I see as Aikido evolving.

Btw ,here's a Sensei acknowledging Aikido evolving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Uctj1CyE

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-11-2008, 09:22 AM   #191
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Folks, let me say this, I've come home to Aikido. I love it and will study it for the rest of my life. I'm not saying UFC will replace Aikido, per se. I'm saying that already Judo is an Olympic event and UFC is infinitely more popular than Aikido. I'm just saying that unless Aikido evolves, it will become extinct. I suggest that in order for Aikido to survive, it needs to become more mainstream and by that I mean more appealing to more people. How? How about Aikido being the big umbrella, under which Traditional Japanese Aikido lives; ALL the different schools live; Sports Aikido lives; Aikido the Olympic sport lives; Aikido for kids; Aikido for seniors; and yes Aikido/BJJ and Aikido/Judo and Aikido/Tai Chi. Along with a great marketing campaign and Steven Seagal as a spokesperson (until hopefully another Aikido movie star comes up).

This is what I see as Aikido evolving.

Btw ,here's a Sensei acknowledging Aikido evolving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Uctj1CyE
Now wouldn't that be lovely jubbly!!!!!!!

Maybe we can live in hope....

Tony
 
Old 12-11-2008, 09:37 AM   #192
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I suggest that in order for Aikido to survive, it needs to become more mainstream and by that I mean more appealing to more people. How? How about Aikido being the big umbrella, under which Traditional Japanese Aikido lives; ALL the different schools live; Sports Aikido lives; Aikido the Olympic sport lives; Aikido for kids; Aikido for seniors; and yes Aikido/BJJ and Aikido/Judo and Aikido/Tai Chi. Along with a great marketing campaign and Steven Seagal as a spokesperson (until hopefully another Aikido movie star comes up).

This is what I see as Aikido evolving.

Btw ,here's a Sensei acknowledging Aikido evolving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Uctj1CyE
I'd like to see you convince this particular shihan, TK Chiba, that you and he are using "aikido evolution" in the exact same sense. He is as traditionalist as they come when it comes to his thinking about aikido as budo. The last thing aikido needs is to change its approach because of marketing concerns. If you use a quotation to support your argument, please try to take it in its original context. Many of the more conservative students of Osensei would tell you that contemporary aikido as espoused by Hombu dojo is already too "watered down," too far removed from the "true" art that they studied five or six decades ago. I think it would upset them all the more if you start brandishing Seagal as the way to go. I am not saying they are necessarily right--only that you shouldn't use a Chiba quotation to support a very un-Chiba position.

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 12-11-2008 at 09:49 AM.
 
Old 12-11-2008, 10:21 AM   #193
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I'm just saying that unless Aikido evolves, it will become extinct. I suggest that in order for Aikido to survive, it needs to become more mainstream and by that I mean more appealing to more people.
We have to build McAikido to compete with TaeKwonDo King; that way, no one will accidentally discover the -do part of either art!

In the garden, people seem to find it worthwhile to pluck the superior weeds just to cultivate one challenging flower in their place. This is an aspect of the evolution of man, too. What do you suppose it means?

 
Old 12-11-2008, 10:37 AM   #194
Richard Sanchez
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I guess it would be reasonable to ask that as Aikido is said to have "evolved" from Daito Ryu aren't we simply talking about the continuing evolution of the original art as taught to Ueshiba by Takeda? Or, as some have claimed in other threads, in relation to internal skills, the devolution?
 
Old 12-11-2008, 03:14 PM   #195
C. David Henderson
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I'd like to see you convince this particular shihan, TK Chiba, that you and he are using "aikido evolution" in the exact same sense. He is as traditionalist as they come when it comes to his thinking about aikido as budo.
Gotta say, good point.

DH
 
Old 12-11-2008, 06:47 PM   #196
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I'd like to see you convince this particular shihan, TK Chiba, that you and he are using "aikido evolution" in the exact same sense. He is as traditionalist as they come when it comes to his thinking about aikido as budo. The last thing aikido needs is to change its approach because of marketing concerns.
But I am using the word 'evolution' in the same sense. He's saying that Osensei improved the Shiho Nage because the flaw in his Shiho Nage caused him to be thrown by a Judoka. That IS exactly the same evolution that I'm talking about- from every little nuance to the overall entity of Aikido, top to bottom, inside out.

Quote:
Ruaul Rodrigo wrote:
.... Many of the more conservative students of Osensei would tell you that contemporary aikido as espoused by Hombu dojo is already too "watered down," too far removed from the "true" art that they studied five or six decades ago. I think it would upset them all the more if you start brandishing Seagal as the way to go. I am not saying they are necessarily right--only that you shouldn't use a Chiba quotation to support a very un-Chiba position.
Well I'm sorry that you misunderstand me. There's folks here that deny any evolution connected to Aikido. I was just pointing out I'm not the only one who sees it. I don't know Chiba Sensei, but I'd bet we'd have a very interesting conversation and you might be surprised at the outcome. He may be totally in favor of it.

Afa the older generation, well, quite frankly there's new generations taking over the reins and that attitude might change. (just look that this Country- In 3 generations this Country's went from respectful God fearing folks of integrity who loved their Country and worked hard for honest day's work to a whole generation of Socalists wanting Govt handouts).

The thing is, the Japanese don't own Aikido anymore and I don't think Osensei intended for them to, since he brought Aikido to the world himself. I advocate an American Aikido, soley owned and operated by Americans, for Americans. As diverse as we are, we'd have everything from Traditional Japanese Aikido (for the die hard traditionalists) to the latest hiphop dance fad and everything in between- sport(Shotokan) Aikido a an Olympic event, Aikido/Tai Chi, Aikido/judo , Aikido/Bjj, Aikdo/MMA,(I know that Karate is really popular because they offer after school care, something VERY popular, that Aikido could do) all with realy cool logos (check out Still Point Aikido's logos) and National marketing with multi-media commercials, but still under the Umbrella of OSensei's Aikido. South Amercia should have their own Aikido that's tailored to South Americans( which'd proabaly have BJJ in it). Europeans have their own, Scandinavian, Russian and so on, but all under the umbrella of Osensei's Aikido. If a few die hard headed old Elitists don't want that to happen, then the majority should move on without them and let them spend their last few days enjoying the shade of "The Umbrella".

Last edited by GeneC : 12-11-2008 at 06:54 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-11-2008, 07:18 PM   #197
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
We have to build McAikido to compete with TaeKwonDo King; that way, no one will accidentally discover the -do part of either art!
If that's your perception, then my condolences. I''m not talking about a "fast food" anything, altho much can be gleaned by the efficiency of a Mickey D's franchise. Ultimately it will be up to the indivdual Dojo to provide the integrity and Budo. Btw, noone should be accidentally discovering 'do' , anyway, right?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote:
In the garden, people seem to find it worthwhile to pluck the superior weeds just to cultivate one challenging flower in their place. This is an aspect of the evolution of man, too. What do you suppose it means?
Well. I don't know if it'd be appropriate to compare Natural evolution with the evolution of man, as man has free will to do damage and free will to do repair.

But anyway, sure, look at the Kudzu vine, it has evolved to be superior, which means it has adapted to overtake and destroy every plant it comes in contact with. I've seen it destroy whole stands of trees and rows of bushes. So it needs to be eradicated and be replaced with a more beneficial plant, like say an herb or vegetable or fruit.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-11-2008 at 07:24 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-11-2008, 08:03 PM   #198
raul rodrigo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Improving your waza by taking into account counters, openings, and lessons from other arts is one thing. Many of the people on Aikiweb cross train and there is no need to convince us of that point. Reformatting the art to build up its commercial appeal, to counter the popularity of BJJ and MMA is something else. You're blurring the distinctions. Evolving as a budo is one thing. Evolving due to non-budo considerations is something else.

I wish you would have that discussion with Chiba shihan. I think you would find it very surprising.
 
Old 12-11-2008, 09:11 PM   #199
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
But anyway, sure, look at the Kudzu vine, it has evolved to be superior, which means it has adapted to overtake and destroy every plant it comes in contact with. I've seen it destroy whole stands of trees and rows of bushes. So it needs to be eradicated and be replaced with a more beneficial plant, like say an herb or vegetable or fruit.
Why stop the kudzu from overtaking another species? Because, for whatever the reason, you personally value the tree / shrub / herb / vegetable / fruit, right?

That's the point.

Aikido does not have to become kudzu (kudzudo?) to survive. Why not? Because there are people who value it and will protect it and cultivate it even when it is surrounded by "superior" kudzu.

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-11-2008 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Lost a quote-tag bracket---whoops!

 
Old 12-11-2008, 09:21 PM   #200
raul rodrigo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

In any event, Clarence, you are setting up a false dichotomy: either aikido becomes more mainstream, more "commercial," or it dies. I don't think those are the only choices. I think you would first have to establish that it is at all in danger of dying. The art has many more practitioners than it had 20 years ago--so many in fact, that maintaining quality is becoming a serious issue.
 

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