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Old 10-03-2008, 09:20 AM   #1
DH
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On Using Others' Pictures

What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image and attached image deleted]

Last edited by akiy : 10-04-2008 at 09:38 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 09:49 AM   #2
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image deleted]
Hmm, looks like tori is bracing on the back leg, locking his upper body tight, and probably using momentum. Uke... well, who cares, although if he had connection his structure wouldn't be broken by tori doing this type of thing.

If tori were applying internal strength (rather than simply training it, for example), he wouldn't have his feet flat on the ground.

Best regards, Gernot

Last edited by akiy : 10-04-2008 at 09:39 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #3
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image deleted]
Dear Dan,

Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.

Is common courtesy a virtue you value ? Obviously not.

Just for your information Dan, the uke, a good friend of mine, is an accomplished Kyokushinkai yudansha, and an ex Soviet soldier (para) I'd suggest if you'd like to know what "connected body and ki" actually feels like, I suggest you should likewise train with a middle senior full contact karateka as your uke; someone like the person in the picture, who understands how, when and where to routinely resist.

Feel free to post your own images of such training for us to critique.

--Dave

Last edited by akiy : 10-04-2008 at 09:40 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 10:40 AM   #4
Upyu
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
Dear Dan,

Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.

Is common courtesy a virtue you value ? Obviously not.

Just for your information Dan, the uke, a good friend of mine, is an accomplished Kyokushinkai yudansha, and an ex Soviet soldier (para) I'd suggest if you'd like to know what "connected body and ki" actually feels like, I suggest you should likewise train with a middle senior full contact karateka as your uke; someone like the person in the picture, who understands how, when and where to routinely resist.

Feel free to post your own images of such training for us to critique.

--Dave
Oh man...
Here we go again

Ad hominem? Check
References or appeal to "experience" and/or authority? Check

If you're going to defend yourself, why not start by explaining exactly why the pic shown could be correct?
 
Old 10-03-2008, 10:43 AM   #5
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Shouldn't you be in the dojo or something rather than wasting valuable time on the internet ?
 
Old 10-03-2008, 10:46 AM   #6
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.
... now I feel stupid So much for taking things in good faith!
 
Old 10-03-2008, 10:53 AM   #7
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Gernot, forget it mate..

My point has been expressed, there's nothing more to say on the issue.

Thanks for the PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 11:00 AM   #8
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Dave
Why did you post the picture? Were I or anyone to have commented favorably and patted you on the back would it have illicited a request for permission on a public board? I mean it sincerely when I say no insult was intended.
I think you missed the point, and got defensive. No where did I question cooperation, did that really need to be said? If I thought it needed I would have mentioned it. Do you think that anyone...anyone here thought this was a snapshot of a fully resistive engagement? Come on Dave give the readership some credit. We all know what we are looking at and have all been there. FWIW, there are many of us out here who have our own experiences with very capable fighters. Some of our experiences are more relevant than others. So let's not go there.

Kata
I agree that we can get snapshots of just about everyone in the Japanese arts-myself included were I to do a kata within the Tori/ ukemi model- and discuss them. But we are discussing them -as a model.
What are we discussing?
The model.
Were the person to be exhibiting ki or internal power his response after his strike and in his body, his weightedness would be different, and the result of being overcome would not result in that *type* of structural failure, even as an uke. This is not to damn him-you just made a point of his capabilities (I'll concede the point as I haven't felt him)-but to dissect the ukemi model and the need to collapse to make waza look like it typically does. He is clearly NOT connected here in any way. So I assume you are in fact conceding that point.
Or are you proposing that what you are attempting to do in the kata would look the same were he to be fully engaged?
Were he to have internal power before, during, and after? Would it look like this?

[Editor: Link to image and attached image deleted]

Lets assume he is awesome and exhibits internal skills. Then the series is still making my points-he gave it up, to do the kata. Hence;
What is wrong with the picture?
No Ki, not internal power exhibited in order to make a waza work.
Which means it can be discussed as the waza it is as a snapshot, and ask...what is wrong with this picture.

Last edited by akiy : 10-04-2008 at 09:40 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 11:20 AM   #9
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(m...arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

Rob
 
Old 10-03-2008, 01:24 PM   #10
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(m...arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

Rob
My dojo was shared at the time with another art and they rightfully shared the shomen along with the walls, which are not clear in the picture, there rested naginata and yari.

Oh and to Dan. Thanks for your comments but let me say I don't expect adoration from anyone least of all from people I don't know.

Perhaps I posted my pictures to help promote my dojo at the time, perhaps I like looking at myself in a skirt - whatever the reason(s), and they are my reasons whatever they may be however; courtesy cost nothing. Something you seem to be left wanting a great deal of.

Dave
 
Old 10-03-2008, 01:45 PM   #11
C. David Henderson
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

"If you're going to DEFEND yourself, why not start by explaining exactly why the pic shown could be correct?"

Why should he be put in a position to have to defend himself gratuitously? Why should he and his students be grist for a discussion mill? Why wasn't he asked? That was his point.

Seems like a natural reaction to me. FWIW

DH
 
Old 10-03-2008, 02:13 PM   #12
Haowen Chan
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(m...arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

Rob
...err, it doesn't say ai ki do. It's the name of the dojo.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 02:46 PM   #13
Aikibu
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I can't wait to see a picture of Dan executing the correct form...

Now back to watching the grass grow!

William Hazen
 
Old 10-03-2008, 03:45 PM   #14
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I think most people's aikido will not be appreciated *here* in the non-aikido section. I think you can take just about every single one of the pictures from the random aikido shots and get the same reaction *here*. I can see why the guy is upset. But is there a rule about using them? Are they off limits unless we are writing glorious reviews?

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 10-03-2008 at 03:50 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 04:06 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I can see why the guy is upset. But is there a rule about using them? Are they off limits unless we are writing glorious reviews?
egads.... if ever I saw an opening for someone to use Rob's pictures and dissect them, that's it. I.e., I think we should respect *everyone* and use discretion in dragging them into unsolicited analysis. What goes around often comes around, so let's be fair.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 10-03-2008, 04:26 PM   #16
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
... is there a rule about using them?
None what so ever, unless of course you discount being courteous in taking the time to drop a quick PM or email.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 05:25 PM   #17
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I didn't say that I cannot see why the guy is upset.

If someone seriously posted a picture of me doing aikido in the non-aikido section and criticized it, I would probably join them. I might ask who is that handsome guy with the terrible structure? But that's me. And if it "comes around" I'm pretty sure I know how I'll handle it.

However, I will in the future try to hold myself up to the high standard set by Mike's infamous online courtesy.

Rob
 
Old 10-03-2008, 05:33 PM   #18
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
However, I will in the future try to hold myself up to the high standard set by Mike's infamous online courtesy.
Another call for moderation. Pure ad hominem.
 
Old 10-03-2008, 05:55 PM   #19
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Why would you even suggest this wasn't sincere? Aren't you the model - the one who *never* goes to personality or politics - that we are all supposed to aspire too? Maybe I misunderstood how you see yourself. My humble apologies.

If it were me, I wouldn't mind my picture being dissected. I CAN see why someone else might mind. It's not a rule, to my knowledge. And a picture of someone else in general doing aikido would work just as well - I'm sure.

Can we all agree to replace the face of that picture with what you imagine my face looks like?

Rob
 
Old 10-03-2008, 06:56 PM   #20
Aikibu
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Another call for moderation. Pure ad hominem.
I agree. It's hard to believe anyone could be so mean to you!

And thus... without much notice by the karma creating masses... A subtle shift takes place in the Universal Cosmic Consciousness of Love... Restoring Harmony once again...

Mastery Defined!

William Hazen
 
Old 10-03-2008, 09:13 PM   #21
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hey, I'll be the first to apologize if using the pics was in poor test. I just didn't see it that way. As I said there was no ill intent, so an apology is easy, Sorry Dave.

Since the intent was to discuss body principles and not people-next time I'll photo shop the faces out, or use graphics. On the whole I can go through the pics here and use any 50 or 60, one after the other, to show the same points anyway. The argument being "volume makes the standard" in order to discuss bodies in motion, in budo movement. Oh well.
 
Old 10-04-2008, 03:24 AM   #22
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Dan, I still think you're missing the point I originally expressed.

I'm not looking for you to apologise, I wasn't originally asking for an apology, I was miffed because you saw fit to use an image of mine whilst asking other people to critique what you thought was wrong with the technical aspects of the waza.

Are you my teacher? Do you and I study the same method of aikido? So, what gives you or anyone the right to sit in judgement of what my students and I do when we train? The answer Dan is "none"

However; had you dropped me a short PM or email expressing your wish to include a picture of mine in this thread, you would have seen absolutely no objection, instead, I'm pointed to your post by a fellow aikidoka who likewise thought it was discourteous.

Now, my point about including the information about Konstantine (the uke) was to illustrate that working with students who actively resist in addition to having good quality atemi often results in techniques that don't fit the "text book" image.

I worked for seven years as a Prison Officer and during that time managed to restrain offenders with a number of aikido waza, non of which looked anything like what happens in the dojo - see my point ?

--Dave
 
Old 10-04-2008, 07:08 AM   #23
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
Dan, I still think you're missing the point I originally expressed.

I'm not looking for you to apologise, I wasn't originally asking for an apology, I was miffed because you saw fit to use an image of mine whilst asking other people to critique what you thought was wrong with the technical aspects of the waza.

Are you my teacher? Do you and I study the same method of aikido? So, what gives you or anyone the right to sit in judgement of what my students and I do when we train? The answer Dan is "none"

However; had you dropped me a short PM or email expressing your wish to include a picture of mine in this thread, you would have seen absolutely no objection, instead, I'm pointed to your post by a fellow aikidoka who likewise thought it was discourteous.

Now, my point about including the information about Konstantine (the uke) was to illustrate that working with students who actively resist in addition to having good quality atemi often results in techniques that don't fit the "text book" image.

I worked for seven years as a Prison Officer and during that time managed to restrain offenders with a number of aikido waza, non of which looked anything like what happens in the dojo - see my point ?

--Dave
Dave
Fair enough, but in much of your reply you miss my point as well. Were I to use any fifty photos it would prove the same point. It's why the style or the people don't matter.
We alll move that way until we are trained not to. It doesn't have anything to do with what your teacher told you to do that is correct, or the waza. Your teacher more than likely does the same things. It is more along the lines of what typical movement in Japanese Budo involves ; where the weight is when attacking and when being thrown. In that light the photo becomes an example...of everyone. There is no critique of waza, or execution of waza. When I put photos with blacked out heads or a graphic (which I hesitated doing because people will debate the "realness") and people discuss
them who train this way, you will here agreement of how and why it is typical, and not what they strive to move like anymore. Further, what they are doing to prevent it from happening.
Here's another take on it. After a few years no one who trains this way will have a body that will look like that guy while attacking-even when they are fully cooperating, and no one will ever look like that, even when they were taking ukemi.

I am quite sure you can beat people up-many can. That's not the point either. So assuming your awesome, and assuming you are spot on in what your teacher taught you, maybe i am talking about something else, that is a critique of us all, in motion. and of a better way to move.
No style, no teacher, no arts waza, matter.

Last edited by DH : 10-04-2008 at 07:11 AM.
 
Old 10-04-2008, 07:21 AM   #24
MM
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I dunno. If pics or vids are made available to the public, then they're public. The "public" is huge and encompasses the world. If you put them out there, they will be discussed in some aspect. For example, I put vids out there. People can link to them anywhere on the Internet and discuss them in various blogs or forums. Anyone can totally trash them or praise them.

But, to get upset that someone is talking about them? Like I said, I dunno. I made them available and should have the courage to accept the reactions, both good and bad. But, that's the way I look at it. YMMV, I guess.

Course, it could be that I still think my stuff is crap and I'm just a beginner. If I had 20-40 years invested, maybe I'd look at it a bit differently. Then again, we all talk about having the beginner mindset and supposedly being able to learn from white belts. So, maybe I still wouldn't get upset. Like I said, I dunno.

I didn't take the post negatively on any of the people pictured. I didn't even know it was you until you posted. And, for what it's worth, it looks like you were teaching. So, uke giving up his structure -- sure. Many is the time that has happened to illustrate a point. But, then the question is, just what parts of the structure were given up and what would it look like if uke had not done so.

As an example of mine, here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSKMkqJvWmY

Okay, so I've lost structure at 0:16-0:18 and also at 0:42-0:44. Well, to be fair, I don't have great structure to begin with, but I really, really lost it at those points.

Now, I regain structure at these points: 0:38-0:40 and 0:45-0:47. So, what changed? It's a look at anyone who loses structure and how they did so. And it's a look at what the interaction would look like if they kept structure.

You can replace me and my uke with anyone in the world and it isn't personal. It's a matter of looking at what constitutes structure, how it looks when it's there, and how it looks when it isn't.

There's also this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmiUhdoUHbI

My uke is trying to not use structure but yet give a good attack where he isn't over committing himself. So, pointing to me (tori), I can see a couple of places where my structure sucks. At one second (almost to two seconds), if you look closely, you can tell that my spine isn't centered correctly, I have a bit too much weight in one leg, and my left shoulder raises up way too much. But, you could replace my face for anyone and the fact remains that there are places where structure is held and it isn't. Doesn't matter why, just that it is.
 
Old 10-04-2008, 07:43 AM   #25
David Humm
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Dave
Fair enough, but in much of your reply you miss my point as well. .
Actually, with due respect to you, I didn't miss anything, I chose to respond reinforcing my perspective. I don't see the point in either agreeing or disagreeing with your particular point of view, you've already posted the picture (without the courtesy of asking). Its as simple as that.

Now I'm quite happy to move on, if you wish to keep rehashing the issue by trying to justify yourself then we go round in a further pointless exercise.

--Dave
 

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