How effective is aikido in self defense?

Tom Hill wrote: thank you all. i have a few things to say in response to people questions and stufff. it is illigal to own a gun in the uk but i do have a air rifle , none of my freinds have been attacked but as you are aware if u live in britian some kid gets stabbed every other week. and i made a mistake by sayin pure self defense. i want a martial art that will teach me how to pass and over come potentiol situations without having to fight but at the same time i wud like to know aikido will help me in a fight if one should sadly ever arise

Hi, I was just browsing through the threads and this one caught my eye. Its an oft repeated question and most times would have been met with pretty blatant 'I'm tired of this kinda questions type of answers'. I guess you just have some decent folks who still try to answer in a decent manner.

In my case I would like to share with you 3 different occasions that I personally went through during my time in the UK. At that point in time I was living in Manchester, and there were some pretty rough neighbourhoods there especially near old trafford where gang fights and guns are pretty much a reality (gun laws in UK not withstanding).

Anyway -
1st incident. Was waiting on a friend who just arrived from Malaysia and wanted to call his girl in London. So we went to a public phone near the pub at Old trafford. Busy road and everything but I still kept an eye out. Until he called me to check the phone ringing tone since he wasn't familiar with it. It took a second for me to go into the booth, listen to the tone and tell him its alright and then as I turned to exit, a large man tried to grab me. I didn't think or tried to do anything, but in a second I had him in a modified jujinage and I was crossing the road. I think the only thought I had at that point in time was NOT throwing him into the moving cars.
After this came the low point of the story... so I'll skip it in the interest of brevity.

2nd. I came across a group of drunks on my way to Odeon City Ctr. I think a girls boyfriend started beating her on the face. At that point in time I had 2 girls with me and there were too many to handle safely so I made a conscious choice not to get involved. Again, a low point in my life.

3rd. This time I saw a girl tussling with a man outside my apartment (near UMIST) as I was walking back home. So I shouted at them about 50m away and jogged towards them. Then I grabbed the guy and threaten to strike him. However, the girl started hitting him and I had to separate them. The man told me the girl ripped him off his wallet. and not a second later she threw his empty wallet at his face and ran off.

Moral of the story
1. keeping awareness is key to good self defence.
2. common sense is also vital. Keeping to a public place is a good idea. but in the end, no one came to help in any of the 3 incidents.
3. So you are responsible for your own safety.
4. Once you start practising seriously, you will do what is necessary to keep yourself safe. But this is true only if your practice correctly applies the principles of the art. If you keep training to master techniques only, you might not benefit entirely from your training.
5. Having practiced martial arts, you will learn your limitations. It's not a license for you to have a go at everyone. So you will learn to recognise situations that call for self defense and other times when you have to leave the place. (its not the movies. Learn the art and beat everyone else up)

Anyway, its good to see you interested in martial arts at 16. I would advice you to learn a couple of martial arts during the early period so that you get a feel of the different emphasis some arts have. That way, you will find one that is most suitable for you.

If this doesn't answer your question then try this.
Ask the aikido teacher at your place that you have concerns on self defense. Ask him if he can demonstrate how aikido can help you. Tell him you will attack him the way you think someone will attack you. If he can show you how to deal with your attacks in a manner you think is positive then go study with him. Just don't think you'll immediately get it.... that takes serious practice.

David Skaggs wrote: Think of self defense as a life long pursuit of collecting the necessary tools to keep yourself and loved ones safe and Aikido as one tool in a collection of tools to be used for self defense. If you need protection immediately, I would get a gun and learn how and when to use it. Then let everyone know you got a gun and you know how to use it. David

Isn't this young man 16 years old ? He would have to obtain or carry it illegal I don't know British laws .I guess a lot of factors would come into play .I don't totally disagree but maturity plays a great deal in responsibility of carrying a gun.I wish nothing but good luck to this young man.But a gun maybe opening him up for more problems.

Ahmad Abas wrote: 1st incident. Was waiting on a friend who just arrived from Malaysia and wanted to call his girl in London. So we went to a public phone near the pub at Old trafford. Busy road and everything but I still kept an eye out. Until he called me to check the phone ringing tone since he wasn't familiar with it. It took a second for me to go into the booth, listen to the tone and tell him its alright and then as I turned to exit, a large man tried to grab me. I didn't think or tried to do anything, but in a second I had him in a modified jujinage and I was crossing the road. I think the only thought I had at that point in time was NOT throwing him into the moving cars. After this came the low point of the story... so I'll skip it in the interest of brevity. 2nd. I came across a group of drunks on my way to Odeon City Ctr. I think a girls boyfriend started beating her on the face. At that point in time I had 2 girls with me and there were too many to handle safely so I made a conscious choice not to get involved. Again, a low point in my life. 3rd. This time I saw a girl tussling with a man outside my apartment (near UMIST) as I was walking back home. So I shouted at them about 50m away and jogged towards them. Then I grabbed the guy and threaten to strike him. However, the girl started hitting him and I had to separate them. The man told me the girl ripped him off his wallet. and not a second later she threw his empty wallet at his face and ran off.

Good stories, thanks for posting.
Ahmad, your 'moral of the story' bits don't seem to gel with your three incidents... none of which seemed (to me) to involve aikido despite the japanese technique name you give to bundling a drunk across the road. What was the low point in THAT story please ... now I'd dying to know!
I wholly approve of your incident number 2 (avoiding a drunk domestic incident) and would state that showed ABSOLUTELY CORRECT self defensive behaviour, certainly NOT a low point in my opinion. Be safe.

To Tom Hill : READ the other (all of them, there's millions) 'is aikido good for self-defence' TYPE threads, then come back and tell us your opinion.
As for training, learn boxing and jacket-wrestling (Judo is good) to become better at common unarmed violence than your potential attackers. Once you KNOW you are good at those disciplines you will be far less likely to be attacked in low-risk situations as the 'crim' can tell you're not such an easy mark.
THEN go study aikido if you want, personally I'm sure it is only valuable to students who can already grapple to a competent degree.

Tom Hill wrote: as you know im new to aikido. as a martial art im lookin for it not for competitions or to show of just purely self defense as the youths generation is gettin filled with killing and crime and im 16 and want to protect myself . how effective is aikido in self defense?

hey tom.

in my opinion aikido is not a self defence. if you really need to protect yourself i would go with bujutsu. here is a good page with some media for you to check out some techniques.
http://www.bujutsu.be/home.php

I had an interesting "effectiveness" experience on the weekend. I was at the beach with my dog and this guy got super mad at me. He was screaming and running at me trying to grab me and hit me. Every time I tried to walk away he ran at me from behind and tried to take me out. For over half an hour my dog and I walked down the beach while this clearly disturbed individual attacked me over and over again.

The funny thing was, I remained completely calm and blended with his every move. I didn't retaliate or try to hurt him, I just redirected every punch and grab. Sometimes he fell down and sometimes he just got pushed away. I never really locked any joints on him or tried to pin him, I just kept swooshing him off me by doing tai-sabaki and the occasional kokyunage.

By the time we got back to the car, he was really, really mad. I squatted down and said to him, "Let's not fight anymore. I'm second-degree black belt in aikido -- you're not going to be able to hurt me." Still red-faced but somewhat appeased, he climbed into the back seat and allowed me to strap him into his car seat. He fell asleep on the way to the bakery, but when we got there he woke up and I bought him a cookie.

It was like the whole thing never happened. Aikido is frikkin' amazing.

lol Conrad

Conrad wins a cookie!
(Watch out that guy isn't secretly bearing a grudge or you could find jam in your disc drive or lego in unlikely places)

I would say "yes" Aikido is an excelant tool to have for self defense. One among many though. You must also have a mind that is aware of its surrounding, and always be mindful of yourself and your own body( i.e. your breathing, stay calm, stay relaxed), always be AWARE.
But, having said that, Aikido is also an exelant way to help develop and enhance the awareness that i have just described

And, as for me, Aikido work's exelantly for self-defense. And i started when i was about 16 too.
But, be mindful of the school you join, check it out first. Not all Aikido schools teach Aikido. If that makes any sense.

I'm not sure if i helped any. But that is my take on the answers to your questions.

Feel free to ask questions!! ALWAYS!

in aiki,
morgan

Michael Douglas wrote: Good stories, thanks for posting. Ahmad, your 'moral of the story' bits don't seem to gel with your three incidents... none of which seemed (to me) to involve aikido despite the japanese technique name you give to bundling a drunk across the road. What was the low point in THAT story please ... now I'd dying to know! I wholly approve of your incident number 2 (avoiding a drunk domestic incident) and would state that showed ABSOLUTELY CORRECT self defensive behaviour, certainly NOT a low point in my opinion. Be safe. To Tom Hill : READ the other (all of them, there's millions) 'is aikido good for self-defence' TYPE threads, then come back and tell us your opinion. As for training, learn boxing and jacket-wrestling (Judo is good) to become better at common unarmed violence than your potential attackers. Once you KNOW you are good at those disciplines you will be far less likely to be attacked in low-risk situations as the 'crim' can tell you're not such an easy mark. THEN go study aikido if you want, personally I'm sure it is only valuable to students who can already grapple to a competent degree.

I'm not sure i agree with your opinon on having to have prior training in grappling arts to succeed in Aikido. I had NO prior experience in grappling, just a little TKD, and i am coming along just fine.
In my opinion all that it takes is an open mind and a willingness to learn to succeed with Aikido.

in aiki,
morgan

Most importantly, the question "How effective is aikido in self defence?" is far less important than "How effective is the aikidoka at self defence?

Absolutely. It's the martial artist, not the martial art that determines how well you will do.

Living in NZ, I tell people that if they really want to protect themselves...take a defensive driving course. More people die on our roads than through other violent means.

"I'm not sure i agree with your opinon on having to have prior training in grappling arts to succeed in Aikido. I had NO prior experience in grappling, just a little TKD, and i am coming along just fine.
In my opinion all that it takes is an open mind and a willingness to learn to succeed with Aikido."

Heh heh, an 'Open mind' would have imagined the usefulness to have grappling experience to add to your aikido vocabulary. Seriously though, do yourself a favour and ask a friendly bjj or judo guy to show you some stuff with grappling under dojo conditions. Ask them to take you down earnestly and pin/hold/choke/lock/submit you as they see fit. Try your hardest not to get thrown down and if they do manage to bring you down, try your hardest to get finished off. It doesn't matter whether you get through it unscathed or not, but the learning experience will open your eyes a bit.

To Michael, seriously...low point. Too embarrassed to say.

id just like to say thank you to everyone that helped me. when i finally decided to call the aikido club i was told by them they only accept people 18+ and im 16 so i looked at other similar martial arts and found another dojo were i lived for aikido went down told them wat i wanted from it saying " slef deffense and to be able to fight if needs be" and they said aikido isnt really a martial art as sush its more like yoga and tai chi, so i am now goin to join a jui jitsu club because after going to them and seeing what they can do it makes aikido look like a cat fight, jui jitsu has all the moves and teaches you how to fight and defend yourself not just slap people in there faces and twist there arm... but thank you all anyway

Yea aikido doesn't work well against slefs.

Ahmad Abas wrote: "I'm not sure i agree with your opinon on having to have prior training in grappling arts to succeed in Aikido. I had NO prior experience in grappling, just a little TKD, and i am coming along just fine. In my opinion all that it takes is an open mind and a willingness to learn to succeed with Aikido." Heh heh, an 'Open mind' would have imagined the usefulness to have grappling experience to add to your aikido vocabulary. Seriously though, do yourself a favour and ask a friendly bjj or judo guy to show you some stuff with grappling under dojo conditions. Ask them to take you down earnestly and pin/hold/choke/lock/submit you as they see fit. Try your hardest not to get thrown down and if they do manage to bring you down, try your hardest to get finished off. It doesn't matter whether you get through it unscathed or not, but the learning experience will open your eyes a bit. To Michael, seriously...low point. Too embarrassed to say.

I HAVE done that, with a friend of mine who studies BJJ. I was disagreeing with the PRIOR part about it. And i stand by that, i 100% believe that even if Aikido is your first and primary Martial Art, you can most definitly succeed.

-morgan

Tom Hill wrote: id just like to say thank you to everyone that helped me. when i finally decided to call the aikido club i was told by them they only accept people 18+ and im 16 so i looked at other similar martial arts and found another dojo were i lived for aikido went down told them wat i wanted from it saying " slef deffense and to be able to fight if needs be" and they said aikido isnt really a martial art as sush its more like yoga and tai chi, so i am now goin to join a jui jitsu club because after going to them and seeing what they can do it makes aikido look like a cat fight, jui jitsu has all the moves and teaches you how to fight and defend yourself not just slap people in there faces and twist there arm... but thank you all anyway

The 18+ rule is kinda of dumb. And Aikido as an equivilant to Tai Chi? pffff. There may be some similarities. But no way would it be considered to be on the same level as Yoga or Tai Chi. Not Suenaka-Ha Aikido atleast. And CERTAINLY not just an art where you slap people in the face and twist there arms. Thats a good way to get your a#% beat. But sorry about that mate. Good luck in your' Martial studies.

-morgan

Tom Hill wrote: ... teaches you how to fight and defend yourself not just slap people in there faces and twist there arm... but thank you all anyway

Hey!
Don't knock Slappy-Twisty! That's my primary fu!

But just think, after two years of wriggling around you'll get to join the Aikido class.
Mind you, only allowing 18+ to join sounds like a very big PLUS for that dojo, they might be seriously good.

Ahmad Abas wrote: ...After this came the low point of the story... so I'll skip it in the interest of brevity.

---

Ahmad Abas wrote: To Michael, seriously...low point. Too embarrassed to say.

Oh I see. It involved wee wee didn't it.

Morgan Wible wrote: I'm not sure i agree with your opinon on having to have prior training in grappling arts to succeed in Aikido. I had NO prior experience in grappling, just a little TKD, and i am coming along just fine. ...

But not AS fine as your own style's founder Suenaka sensei who (surprise surprise) trained extensively in other combat disciplines ;

"Roy Yukio Suenaka Sensei, founder of Wadokai Aikido™, is one of contemporary budo's most experienced practitioners and best-kept secrets. Born in Honolulu, Hawaii, Suenaka Sensei's martial instruction began under his father, Warren Kenji Suenaka, who taught his son budo basics and carefully selected his primary martial tutors. These included such legends as Okazaki-ryu Kodenkan Jiu-jitsu founder Henry Seishiro Okazaki, Kosho-ryu Kempo's legendary James Masayoshi Mitose, judoka (and later, aikidoka) Yukiso Yamamoto, and celebrated kendoka Shuji Mikami, from whom Suenaka Sensei received a nidan (2nd degree black belt).

Suenaka Sensei began his aikido study upon Koichi Tohei's 1953 visit to Hawaii, and continued his study directly under Founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei at the Aikikai Hombu for eight years, beginning in 1961. That same year, Suenaka Sensei received an aikido menkyo kaiden (master-level proficiency) teaching certificate from O'Sensei, and became the first person to open a successful aikido dojo in Okinawa. He also commenced eight years of private study with renowned Matsumura Seito and Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu Karate-do Grandmaster Hohan Soken, receiving from him the rank of rokudan (6th degree black belt). In addition, Suenaka Sensei continued his judo and jiu-jitsu education at the Kodokan under famed Meijin Kazuo Ito, who personally sponsored Suenaka Sensei's promotion to sandan (3rd degree black belt) in judo and jiu-jitsu."

Tadaa!

wow... what a wealth of knowledge. his students are real lucky.

"Roy Yukio Suenaka Sensei, founder of Wadokai Aikido™, is one of contemporary budo's most experienced practitioners and best-kept secrets. Born in Honolulu, Hawaii, Suenaka Sensei's martial instruction began under his father, Warren Kenji Suenaka, who taught his son budo basics and carefully selected his primary martial tutors. These included such legends as Okazaki-ryu Kodenkan Jiu-jitsu founder Henry Seishiro Okazaki, Kosho-ryu Kempo's legendary James Masayoshi Mitose, judoka (and later, aikidoka) Yukiso Yamamoto, and celebrated kendoka Shuji Mikami, from whom Suenaka Sensei received a nidan (2nd degree black belt).

Suenaka Sensei began his aikido study upon Koichi Tohei's 1953 visit to Hawaii, and continued his study directly under Founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei at the Aikikai Hombu for eight years, beginning in 1961. That same year, Suenaka Sensei received an aikido menkyo kaiden (master-level proficiency) teaching certificate from O'Sensei, and became the first person to open a successful aikido dojo in Okinawa. He also commenced eight years of private study with renowned Matsumura Seito and Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu Karate-do Grandmaster Hohan Soken, receiving from him the rank of rokudan (6th degree black belt). In addition, Suenaka Sensei continued his judo and jiu-jitsu education at the Kodokan under famed Meijin Kazuo Ito, who personally sponsored Suenaka Sensei's promotion to sandan (3rd degree black belt) in judo and jiu-jitsu."

Tadaa! [/quote]

Michael Douglas wrote: But not AS fine as your own style's founder Suenaka sensei who (surprise surprise) trained extensively in other combat disciplines ; "Roy Yukio Suenaka Sensei, founder of Wadokai Aikido™, is one of contemporary budo's most experienced practitioners and best-kept secrets. Born in Honolulu, Hawaii, Suenaka Sensei's martial instruction began under his father, Warren Kenji Suenaka, who taught his son budo basics and carefully selected his primary martial tutors. These included such legends as Okazaki-ryu Kodenkan Jiu-jitsu founder Henry Seishiro Okazaki, Kosho-ryu Kempo's legendary James Masayoshi Mitose, judoka (and later, aikidoka) Yukiso Yamamoto, and celebrated kendoka Shuji Mikami, from whom Suenaka Sensei received a nidan (2nd degree black belt). Suenaka Sensei began his aikido study upon Koichi Tohei's 1953 visit to Hawaii, and continued his study directly under Founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei at the Aikikai Hombu for eight years, beginning in 1961. That same year, Suenaka Sensei received an aikido menkyo kaiden (master-level proficiency) teaching certificate from O'Sensei, and became the first person to open a successful aikido dojo in Okinawa. He also commenced eight years of private study with renowned Matsumura Seito and Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu Karate-do Grandmaster Hohan Soken, receiving from him the rank of rokudan (6th degree black belt). In addition, Suenaka Sensei continued his judo and jiu-jitsu education at the Kodokan under famed Meijin Kazuo Ito, who personally sponsored Suenaka Sensei's promotion to sandan (3rd degree black belt) in judo and jiu-jitsu." Tadaa!

As I study with a teacher who also practices other M.A. (judo and Krate). I can see his experiance in other M.A. affects his teaching, and so I wonder, can I stand on the shoulder of a giant or must I try to emulate his steps?

I guess part of the reason Morgan Wible does not feel a need to learn other M.A. is he has taste and ideas from them already in his teachers regular lessons. I know this is the situation in our Dojo, we do not mix M.A. but my sensei often gives examples from other M.A. and we practive against Karate style attacks on a regular basis ...

So I wonder, can the teacher experinace affect the requisites of the students, and up to when?

(In fact, my Sensei incourages us to learn additional M.A. and In took a year of Karate with him on my 3rd year of studying Aikid, which turend out to be too soon for me. Years later, I practiced TKD combined with scenario S.D. with another teacher, in parrallel to the Aikido, only to find my basic approach to the scenarios was much more sophisticated and influenced by strategy compared to other students who did not have similar experince tom and were beginners or just practiced with the TKD teacher).

Amir

Michael Douglas wrote: But not AS fine as your own style's founder Suenaka sensei who (surprise surprise) trained extensively in other combat disciplines ; "Roy Yukio Suenaka Sensei, founder of Wadokai Aikido™, is one of contemporary budo's most experienced practitioners and best-kept secrets. Born in Honolulu, Hawaii, Suenaka Sensei's martial instruction began under his father, Warren Kenji Suenaka, who taught his son budo basics and carefully selected his primary martial tutors. These included such legends as Okazaki-ryu Kodenkan Jiu-jitsu founder Henry Seishiro Okazaki, Kosho-ryu Kempo's legendary James Masayoshi Mitose, judoka (and later, aikidoka) Yukiso Yamamoto, and celebrated kendoka Shuji Mikami, from whom Suenaka Sensei received a nidan (2nd degree black belt). Suenaka Sensei began his aikido study upon Koichi Tohei's 1953 visit to Hawaii, and continued his study directly under Founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei at the Aikikai Hombu for eight years, beginning in 1961. That same year, Suenaka Sensei received an aikido menkyo kaiden (master-level proficiency) teaching certificate from O'Sensei, and became the first person to open a successful aikido dojo in Okinawa. He also commenced eight years of private study with renowned Matsumura Seito and Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu Karate-do Grandmaster Hohan Soken, receiving from him the rank of rokudan (6th degree black belt). In addition, Suenaka Sensei continued his judo and jiu-jitsu education at the Kodokan under famed Meijin Kazuo Ito, who personally sponsored Suenaka Sensei's promotion to sandan (3rd degree black belt) in judo and jiu-jitsu." Tadaa!

Thank you, i have read his book twice. I DID know all that, but that still doesnt make me change my mind about HAVING to have prior grappling training to succeed in Aikido.

Also, Suenaka Sensei has since recieved his 8th Dan in Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu Karate-do. AND and 8th dan in Aikido.

-morgan

This post will seem like trolling, or a blatant insult to Aikido people, or what-have-you, but in honesty it isn't. Let me provide some background.

I love the 'idea' of Aikido. I walk past a lovely dojo full of competent instructors (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) a few times every week, and I've wanted to join for a while now, but time and money have been an issue. As many of you know, it takes a long time to progress from level to level in Aikido, even with dedication and regular training, and that's good for a martial art.

I'm facing a dilemma, however, and that dilemma is that it is really hard to have faith in the techniques. In the situations where they are applied, it is obviously effective. Outside of the dojo, it starts to appear much less effective. This is probably something that's been mentioned around here before (in a few forums posts at least).

Many of the renowned Aikido guys do demonstrations, and what I see time and again is that their demo guys attack in unrealistic ways and in multiple vids perform the exact same attacks, often in the same sequence. Some examples:

Christian Tissier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXG57rOTE8I

More than half the "attacks" in this vid are like silly old spy movie "judo chops". No one ever gets attacked with a judo chop. Ever. No one ever has someone half-run at them with an open palm outstretched. Like Bas Rutten said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

Steven Seagal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herSynqVN3M

I like that Steven Seagal's stuff is usually faster, ergo much more like a real confrontation, but the attacks are still unrealistic and I notice in that almost all of his old demo vids he's demonstrating with the same guys -- guys who know the choreography of the demonstration and who have been with Seagal for at least a couple years.

So in a more realistic situation that isn't merely a demo, how does pure aikido stack up?

Here an MMA fighter doesn't do much to take the aikido master out of the fight:
http://fr.truveo.com/Aikido-vs-MMA/id/3792273418

Here's what I often see in "aikido vs whatever". The aikido guy begins with aikido moves, but then falls into kicks and punches like the taekwondo/karate/muai thai guy. (This happened a teeny bit in the previous vid) In this one, the half-arm man wins, but aikido is only part of it -- and his oppenent isn't all that good.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

Now, people might point to some MMA guy like Royce Gracie ( http://fr.truveo.com/aikido-vs-free-fight/id/3332018667 ) and say, "Ah-ha! Aikido guy!" But, he's not really using anything you regularly see in a dojo. If anything, most of what he does is the same stuff wrestlers do, plus punches.

There are many demonstration vids showing how aikido is effective against kickboxing/karate/etc. but the only time it appears to have an advantage is in demonstration of how good it is, not real combat. This match is the exception (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLmQ-Tci3bk) but does not appear to be the Aikido taught at my local dojo.

Here's a quote from "callsignfuzzy" from an online conversation (which I wasn't a part of) regarding the effectiveness of Aikido and Hapkido:

"I don't think either are ineffective. In fact, two of the people I respect the most in martial arts have an Aikido background. Of course they both cross-train, have hazardous jobs (bouncer and troubled-teen manager), and both look at "flower-child" aikidoka as being unrealistic. I think the difference between these folks and a lot of aikidoka is that they have been in real, physical danger and train their technique appropriately. If you look at how the majority of Aikido, Hapkido, and similar systems are trained, you'll notice a lot of unrealistic training. There's a lot of, "grab my wrist and hold on for dear life, no matter what I do" kind of training. Fun fact: adult males are hardly ever subject to wrist grabs. Think about it. When was the last time you saw two guys squaring off in a bar fight, and one of them grabs the other's wrist? I've never seen it happen. I've asked an aikido forum what techniques they found the most useful, and despite the wealth of locks and throws, they only mentioned a handful of techniques."

I know there are techniques to counter kicks or punches, but some have proven to be completely useless in real combat. The rest don't appear to be used very often to any great degree of success. There are different flavors of Aikido, and, yes, some are "harder" and more competitive, but to say one flavor of Aikido would work here and maybe this one would work there kind of dismisses those other kinds of Aikido to wu-shu status, and where does that assessment leave the practitioners of those styles?

Before the dozens of "well why don't you come to our dojo and find out on the mat" comments, all I want is for someone out there to show me more than a couple real examples of where Aikido seriously shows its mettle and merit as an effective defensive art -- because I want to respect it and even participate, given the opportunity, if it's more than hype. I've looked all over (notice the diversity of websites I've posted here), yet can't find anything showing Aikido lives up to its hype. I thought the Aikido community would be better able to provide some evidence if it exists. Also, as a side note and provided there's some evidence of Aikido's effectiveness as a martial art, how does the community feel about the style taught at my local dojo (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) ?

Thanks!

As I have said before, train as though your life depends on it. What you put into Aikido is what you will get out of it, or any martial art. Does Aikido work? For me, you bet. I was in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Mogadishu, Somalia on the Blackhawk Down Rescue mission and I actually did use aikido, and judo, to my defense. Wasn't a good thing that I had to do but that's why I am here.

You used Aikido in Viet Nam, Desert Strom and Blackhawk Down...

Okay, so to be more specific, what I'm looking for is some evidence that isn't purely (and fantastically) anecdotal. Even videos of situations where Aikido may not defeat another martial art or a brawler, but at least holds its own for a long time.

Ryan Larson wrote: This post will seem like trolling, or a blatant insult to Aikido people, or what-have-you, but in honesty it isn't. Let me provide some background. I love the 'idea' of Aikido. I walk past a lovely dojo full of competent instructors (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) a few times every week, and I've wanted to join for a while now, but time and money have been an issue. As many of you know, it takes a long time to progress from level to level in Aikido, even with dedication and regular training, and that's good for a martial art. I'm facing a dilemma, however, and that dilemma is that it is really hard to have faith in the techniques. In the situations where they are applied, it is obviously effective. Outside of the dojo, it starts to appear much less effective. This is probably something that's been mentioned around here before (in a few forums posts at least). Many of the renowned Aikido guys do demonstrations, and what I see time and again is that their demo guys attack in unrealistic ways and in multiple vids perform the exact same attacks, often in the same sequence. Some examples: Christian Tissier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXG57rOTE8I More than half the "attacks" in this vid are like silly old spy movie "judo chops". No one ever gets attacked with a judo chop. Ever. No one ever has someone half-run at them with an open palm outstretched. Like Bas Rutten said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk Steven Seagal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herSynqVN3M I like that Steven Seagal's stuff is usually faster, ergo much more like a real confrontation, but the attacks are still unrealistic and I notice in that almost all of his old demo vids he's demonstrating with the same guys -- guys who know the choreography of the demonstration and who have been with Seagal for at least a couple years. So in a more realistic situation that isn't merely a demo, how does pure aikido stack up? Here an MMA fighter doesn't do much to take the aikido master out of the fight: http://fr.truveo.com/Aikido-vs-MMA/id/3792273418 Here's what I often see in "aikido vs whatever". The aikido guy begins with aikido moves, but then falls into kicks and punches like the taekwondo/karate/muai thai guy. (This happened a teeny bit in the previous vid) In this one, the half-arm man wins, but aikido is only part of it -- and his oppenent isn't all that good. Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0 Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME Now, people might point to some MMA guy like Royce Gracie ( http://fr.truveo.com/aikido-vs-free-fight/id/3332018667 ) and say, "Ah-ha! Aikido guy!" But, he's not really using anything you regularly see in a dojo. If anything, most of what he does is the same stuff wrestlers do, plus punches. There are many demonstration vids showing how aikido is effective against kickboxing/karate/etc. but the only time it appears to have an advantage is in demonstration of how good it is, not real combat. This match is the exception (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLmQ-Tci3bk) but does not appear to be the Aikido taught at my local dojo. Here's a quote from "callsignfuzzy" from an online conversation (which I wasn't a part of) regarding the effectiveness of Aikido and Hapkido: "I don't think either are ineffective. In fact, two of the people I respect the most in martial arts have an Aikido background. Of course they both cross-train, have hazardous jobs (bouncer and troubled-teen manager), and both look at "flower-child" aikidoka as being unrealistic. I think the difference between these folks and a lot of aikidoka is that they have been in real, physical danger and train their technique appropriately. If you look at how the majority of Aikido, Hapkido, and similar systems are trained, you'll notice a lot of unrealistic training. There's a lot of, "grab my wrist and hold on for dear life, no matter what I do" kind of training. Fun fact: adult males are hardly ever subject to wrist grabs. Think about it. When was the last time you saw two guys squaring off in a bar fight, and one of them grabs the other's wrist? I've never seen it happen. I've asked an aikido forum what techniques they found the most useful, and despite the wealth of locks and throws, they only mentioned a handful of techniques." I know there are techniques to counter kicks or punches, but some have proven to be completely useless in real combat. The rest don't appear to be used very often to any great degree of success. There are different flavors of Aikido, and, yes, some are "harder" and more competitive, but to say one flavor of Aikido would work here and maybe this one would work there kind of dismisses those other kinds of Aikido to wu-shu status, and where does that assessment leave the practitioners of those styles? Before the dozens of "well why don't you come to our dojo and find out on the mat" comments, all I want is for someone out there to show me more than a couple real examples of where Aikido seriously shows its mettle and merit as an effective defensive art -- because I want to respect it and even participate, given the opportunity, if it's more than hype. I've looked all over (notice the diversity of websites I've posted here), yet can't find anything showing Aikido lives up to its hype. I thought the Aikido community would be better able to provide some evidence if it exists. Also, as a side note and provided there's some evidence of Aikido's effectiveness as a martial art, how does the community feel about the style taught at my local dojo (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) ? Thanks!

There are no techniques. There are no "realistic" attacks. You get attacked how you get attacked. That's why the attacks in Aikido are how they are. You can't say "That's not a realistic attack" half way though a fight, you have to deal with what you're given.

That being the case, keeping the attacks you train from generic makes more sense than training against a narrow range of highly specialised attacks that are deemed to be "realistic" even if it's statisically unlikely to come across someone trained enough to make them common attacks.

Fact is if you want evidence of an effective art you need to see it on the street where anything is possible and you need to see it over many different situations. You have to consider the test before you talk about the effectiveness as an art and there are many different tests.
There's one on one, there's four man attack, with weapons, without weapons.