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Old 09-07-2008, 09:12 AM   #1
Buck
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Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

I've realized all the good discussions on Aikido are in heaven. I just wanted to share. I came across this clip which I think is out of the norm of the countless numbers of Aikido clips on YouTube, and it is not the typical Aikido demo because of the lack of traditional garb and speed. We all know that Hakama and gi hides and obscures movement in what your watching. And the street clothes provide a sense out-of-the-dojo and in every daily life experience.

I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world. The clip doesn't show all the common attacks someone might experience, but they are the major ones -the clip gets you the idea.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn...eature=related

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:00 AM   #2
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target
sorry to be negative Phil, but the attacks were very obviously pre-arranged by the two participants. My guess is they also probably did several takes as well until they got them looking the way they wanted.

Just because it is outside and the speed and dynamic movement (power) has increased over what we normally do in the dojo, does not make it any more realistic.

We perceive that, but it is not what I have/do experience in reality.

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Old 09-07-2008, 10:23 AM   #3
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil,

Wanted to provide you an example instead of simply being negative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dknjl...lated&resnum=3

When you start talking spontaneous and reality, there really is no good way to train it 100% "unknown"

However, this example, which is also scenario based, like the ones in your video is a little more non-compliant and the exact time, distance, line of attack, and the actually attack are unknown.

The High Gear suits also allow for more reality in the attacks, allowing the attacker to pretty much attack without fear of really doing any real damage to the uke.

What happens most of the time in reality is that attackers close distance in a variety of ways, from verbal (socially), to attempting to off balance with mass and multiple attacks or feints in an attempt to disrupt and overwhelm.

The key to it is it is not one linear attack as we typically practice in Aikido, and that is what is shown in your example albeit it is outdoors, in street clothing, with more power and speed.

I think it is key to remember that aikido was designed by the founder not as a system primarily geared towards fighting but refinement of self...you know the party line.

As such, isolated out are many factors that would serve as distractors from the goals of aikido.

It is why many will contend that it is not a "full spectrum" system.

Aikido is the equivilant in the Military as Marksmanship training on the range. It is where you learn the most important parts of using the weapon, posture, balance, breath control, site picture. The basics upon which you base things on. However it is not "combat shooting".

On the range adding speed, noise, targets popping up and down...all start increasing the pressure...yet you are still on the range, with many known factors.

This is what I see in the video you posted.

For a military situation, we would put our soldiers with weapons in scenarios where they have to work with team mates, interact in a more unknown, spontaneous situation to more approximate reality.

I hope this makes sense.

You have to be careful drawing the conclusion that what you see in that video is "more real". Yes, to a degree it is, but still very controlled. If those guys did not put actual "aliveness" into there scenarios, then chance are, the would get into "overload" very quickly once spontaneity and pressure (aliveness) was factored in.

Hope this helps.

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Old 09-07-2008, 11:12 AM   #4
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil
You might note that the lack of "taking ukemi" changes the dynamic in the receiving body; both its structural integrity and how it reacts spacially to the guy trying his schtick on you. Normal people do not act like the trained preconditioned jumpers in the martial arts. And trained fighter?? They're a different planet all together.
If someone opts for video example #1 (yours) as good Aikido, well...have fun
If they mistakenly call it good martial arts? Well...I just feel sorry for them. They are either being deceived or are deceiving themselves. Again though. Its the internet, everyone thinks their opinions are equal, because of their own particular experiences. It may look that way, but it only looks that way.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:26 PM   #5
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Great video find Philip, I like it.
It is much much better than most of the aikido adverts out there.

(but ... maybe it could be retitled to : "What to do when camp bloke tries slowly to hit you with a fish outside the gay bar".?)
Joke, don't hit me.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world.
I don't think so.
I mean, not once does it show someone trying to punch the other in the face really really hard, then punch him with the other hand, then punch him some more.
I'm sure someone might think the video shows that, but in my opinion it never does.
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:15 PM   #6
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I mean, not once does it show someone trying to punch the other in the face really really hard, then punch him with the other hand, then punch him some more.
I'm sure someone might think the video shows that, but in my opinion it never does.
You can't show every possible street (crime) attack, but what you can do is highlight and then make the adjustments. The choice to use weapons in the demo is a step up from empty hand. You can deal with both attacks similarly. Street punks etc. often use weapons to intimidate and for control of the victim. If you remove the weapon from the attacker's hand and instead see it as a closed fist you would have a bar fight situation- in the honest bars.

What I was getting at is the clip really shows Aikido outside the traditionally framed expose demo- nothing wrong with that. Such demos can be misleading to the general viewing public about the street effectiveness of Aikido. Because the setting of many such demos are traditionally framed traditionally with all the Japanese trimmings. The clip being done in regular clothes and on the street (outside where people can see themselves being there) the viewing public can see themselves in those situations in the clip, they can relate to it. They say to themselves, ya, I can see how that works, I can see myself doing it. Rather then looking at a showcasing of cultural demo of a martial art steeped in martial arts tradition, and not relating personally to Aikido by making similarities in their daily lives.

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:31 PM   #7
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The clip done in regular clothes and on the street (outside where people can see themselves being there) the viewing public can see themselves in those situations in the clip, they can relate to it.
But does not make it real not realistic.

The regular clothes and street like location for the clip may be gives you a sense or reality in what is shown. However it is still a staged demo, nothing more. There is no show of fighting skills in the clip, it shows choreographic skills.

Maybe these guys can fight, but the video you linked does not prove anything about their fighting or self defense skills.

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Old 09-07-2008, 04:42 PM   #8
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

I agree for the most part what has been posted about the video Phil but for different reasons. The style of Aikido in the Demo is the typical "start soft finish hard" form.No Irimi No real Atemi No attempt by Uke to use combination/counter attacks.

I have got to buy me a few of those suits Kevin!!!

William Hazen
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:44 PM   #9
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
sorry to be negative Phil, but the attacks were very obviously pre-arranged by the two participants. My guess is they also probably did several takes as well until they got them looking the way they wanted.

Just because it is outside and the speed and dynamic movement (power) has increased over what we normally do in the dojo, does not make it any more realistic.

We perceive that, but it is not what I have/do experience in reality.
Of course Kevin, (and those joining us) what demo or clip isn't of any art. But that doesn't make the techniques ineffective or unrealistic.

Kevin, we talking about civilian life, everyday daily life of the common man or woman viewing this. millions of people around the world do Aikido based on the traditional demo, so I am aware of that too. I like that the clip demo'd with all the trimmings of Aikido and went with common dress and location.

I have said this before that it is a shame someone wasn't able to film an Aikidoka in a hot situation where they are attacked on the street. I am sure there might be a clip out there some where. But the reason I think there isn't a clip (assuming there isn't one of one on the street) is due largely to Aikido's philosophy. Aikidoka on a whole don't go out looking for a fight or place themselves in a situation of street violence. Yes, am aware of the Aikido dojo- stormers, and how they defeated many, but I am talking in terms of O'Sensei's vision for Aikido and not what an individual who chooses to do what they want with Aikido on their own, i.e. use Aikido in a competition fight. I am talking about capturing digitally an Aikidoka handling a street punk I think is rare. I would like to see clips of Aikidokas in a hot situation.

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:03 PM   #10
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Phil
You might note that the lack of "taking ukemi" changes the dynamic in the receiving body; both its structural integrity and how it reacts spacially to the guy trying his schtick on you. Normal people do not act like the trained preconditioned jumpers in the martial arts. And trained fighter?? They're a different planet all together.
If someone opts for video example #1 (yours) as good Aikido, well...have fun
If they mistakenly call it good martial arts? Well...I just feel sorry for them. They are either being deceived or are deceiving themselves. Again though. Its the internet, everyone thinks their opinions are equal, because of their own particular experiences. It may look that way, but it only looks that way.
Dan, I see where you are going. But please keep in mind the clip's value is in what I have posted before this. The clip is a model. The arguments you and others have laid out concerning objectivity, perspective, etc. is what philosophers and psychologist have being discussing for thousands of years, and is required fundamental study in the universities. The reason for the clip what to show the closest emulation of Aikido applied in a hot street situation vs. in a traditional setting.

I appreciate you philosophical argument, though one thing I learned as a learned person is to stay out of philosophical agreements because at a point I wonder if the argument is for real, and are we thinking we are going foward, but we are really standing still never really going forward, etc.

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:09 PM   #11
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I would like to see clips of Aikidokas in a hot situation.
Why?

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Old 09-07-2008, 05:15 PM   #12
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Phil,

What happens most of the time in reality is that attackers close distance in a variety of ways, from verbal (socially), to attempting to off balance with mass and multiple attacks or feints in an attempt to disrupt and overwhelm.

I think it is key to remember that aikido was designed by the founder not as a system primarily geared towards fighting but refinement of self...you know the party line.
Your first comment above, that is only one type of attack scenario commonly found in bar fights between males of high testoserone level and hearty doses of liquor in the gut. Typical stag liquor drinking male behavior.

You in your reality you didn't include attacks on women, situations such as muggings, etc. The clip is limited as well but I would say it does include other situations applicable. The clip isn't perfect.

yep that is the party line and if some people would figure that out, there would be less type of certain arguments and threads being started.
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:18 PM   #13
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Why?
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate.

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:32 PM   #14
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness until we throw-up) to the general public in a way they can best relate.
You've never been in a "hot" situation, you do not know what is a "hot" situation, you do not want to know what is a "hot" situation but you want see videos of people fighting for their lifes because you want to "show the efectiveness of aikido"...

Man, you are in need of professional help.

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Old 09-07-2008, 05:39 PM   #15
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

I've really used what I learned in aikido against someone really trying to take me down and not fall for me. I do think it works. I don't think it works like that video. That video does not represent 99% of all attacks for damn sure.

Lastly, I believe that what I knew wouldn't stand up to someone with a well trained body - and further that when my body is a well trained body - 99% of real attacks won't stand up to me.

I have to say I like the video though. It's the best of its kind I've ever seen.

Rob
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:58 PM   #16
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil wrote:

Quote:
Kevin, we talking about civilian life,
I understand. There are some differences on why you are engaging and the situations. However fighting is fighting. The clips you provided were assuming attackers with an intent to severely hurt or kill. How does that differ from a civilian to military status. Knives and bodies work the same and all bleed the same.

Quote:
I have said this before that it is a shame someone wasn't able to film an Aikidoka in a hot situation where they are attacked on the street. I am sure there might be a clip out there some where. But the reason I think there isn't a clip (assuming there isn't one of one on the street) is due largely to Aikido's philosophy
Probably. As an afinity group, Aikidoka are not generally involved in to many fights.

There are a few of us out there that have done aikido for a few years and use it in our jobs/situations.

I think the issue is this:

You view aikido as a "fighting style" the methodology and conditions you train in are assumed by you to some how be visibily distinctive and different than other "styles"

Bad logic, ask me how I found out.

From my perspective and guys like Kit Leblanc, Dave Valadez, Dan Harden and other...

We view aikido as a principle based methodology designed to instill certain habits and principles...it provides a framework and structure.

In a fight though...all skilled fighters start looking the same. You close distance, you clinch, you form frames, you irimi strike, kick, and do all that good stuff. It is hard to tell and aikidoka from a guy that has an afinity for Krav Maga.

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Old 09-07-2008, 07:10 PM   #17
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil wrote:

Quote:
You in your reality you didn't include attacks on women, situations such as muggings, etc. The clip is limited as well but I would say it does include other situations applicable. The clip isn't perfect.
I actually chose the video I chose on purpose. I avoided any examples of ground fighting to avoid the grappling argument.

If I were dealing with attacks on women, muggings...you know true civilian "ambush" attacks I would have provided a tape on ground figthing since this is where typically go in those situations if you are still conscious. Your attacker wants you incapacitated, on the ground, with him on top executing his will.

But, that opens the whole Ground fighting issue.

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Old 09-07-2008, 07:15 PM   #18
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil wrote:

Quote:
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate.
All I can tell you is that if you asked Saotome Sensei about his "playbook" he'd probably get quite upset. Rob L I am sure can back this up as well.

Everytime I have ever been to a class or seminar he always preaches that we are not doing aikido we are trying to do technique. To him, a senior uschideshi, it is not about the "moves" or "playbook" but about the principles.

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Old 09-07-2008, 09:04 PM   #19
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world. The clip doesn't show all the common attacks someone might experience, but they are the major ones -the clip gets you the idea.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn...eature=related
Hi Philip,
I really liked that video as a demonstration. It's one of the better demo's I've seen online...for the use of speed and ukemi somewhere other than a mat. It also showed some variety so all in all a good video in my view. I particularly liked the use of atemi in some of the movements.
As for your thread's question, I think the point Dan made about taking ukemi is the main reason it might not be described as an example of something "effective" or "realistic." My very limited experience is that many people will simply fall down or do "bad" movements which change the nature of nage's movement. In other words it's stylized because all the people in the video probably practice the same stuff together. Then again video representations always fall short. Even Kevin's video, where they're supposed to be able to go all out (more or less), it seemed to me the attacker stopped attacking. That doesn't mean it's not effective per se, just that I as a casual observer was able to see a moment where the attacker might simply have been processing what to do next (or even allowing nage to find his way in) instead of following through with another attack...and that happens often enough in Real Life.

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Old 09-07-2008, 09:11 PM   #20
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You've never been in a "hot" situation, you do not know what is a "hot" situation, you do not want to know what is a "hot" situation but you want see videos of people fighting for their lifes because you want to "show the efectiveness of aikido"...

Man, you are in need of professional help.
I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.

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Old 09-07-2008, 09:38 PM   #21
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.
Thank you Matthew, that is correct, that is what I meant and mean.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:56 PM   #22
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

It's a nice clip as far as it goes. I think Kevin's posts make good points about the differences in demos, sans hakama and dogi or not.

I've sometimes thought that in any attack there might be a chance at pulling off an inital technique more or less simply because the attacker doesn't know its coming. Notice I said chance. In addition to having the element of suprise, one would have to have requiste timing and speed and application of all those movement principles we learn in aikido. Miss any of those and you have to know how to deal with resistance. My limited experience says that unless we were to actively train in reality based scenarios that even with many years of aikido training it is likely that in a "real" situation, our ability to apply those principles can be compromised unless we can control our own impulses to engage (testostrone, ego, fight or flight reaction etc....). In my limited experience it is a very difficult thing to control and is a training aspect not normally dealt with in aikido training. We'd all like to think we'd act like 007 with those instinctive reactions but I don't think so, because most people do not train that way. At some point you realize the limitations of most aikido training. And its like George Leydard said....the chances of a street attack happening to 99% of all aikidoka is about 0.000001%. So, if you enjoy aikido, keep doing it. If not, stop. and if you want to slant your aikido training to something approximating marital aikido, well, you can do that in many ways......(insert the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many.........many threads on this here).
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:01 PM   #23
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

The guys in my dojo keep telling me I need to go to George Ledyard's seminar when he comes to Baltimore. He apparently does quite a bit with weapons (shinai) dealing with the speed, power, and spontanaity.

I am hoping I can make it next year.

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Old 09-07-2008, 10:05 PM   #24
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate.
Kevin, I guess it wasn't clear to you, so it may not be to others, the phrase"Play book" was used as colorful language for what O'Sensei's intention was for the use of Aikido in self-defense situations. Which is the rational behind the reasoning for why we are discussing a choreographed clip as a model instead of non-choreographed self-defense situation clip.

Matt I agree and see Dan's point, but honestly that is getting down to the micro level of pointing out faults of things which brings up more counter "what ifs" and variables. And that is the snag with clips like this vs. a hot situation clip: say a security camera caught an Aikidoka being mugged in a parking lot and the attack is foiled by the Aikidoka- that type of "hot" situation. That type of clip would redefine the discussion on Aikido effectiveness and answer Kevin and Dan's concerns and others expressed in this clip.

------------------

Even though the clip with all its faults and short commings it does model effective Aikido techniques. But, a plus to the clip is the speed at which the techniques are done it. The clip generally shows what we all us Aikidoka know. I think it is good for that purpose. If Aikido was about people pointing a finger the direction of the attacker and the attacker who went flying 10 feet away in mid air as a result, then I would say Aikido isn't effective.

Last edited by Buck : 09-07-2008 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:38 PM   #25
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I agree and see Dan's point, but honestly that is getting down to the micro level of pointing out faults of things which brings up more counter "what ifs" and variables.
No it isn't. It's a discussion of a gross level of movement. Such as where, the attacker stops attacking in order to set up his body to take the throw. Over, and over and over.
I can only suggest due to the level of commentary being offered that you find men of video #2 and you go and try what you are advocating in video #1 and then come and show it
There are some lessons you need to learn, not the least of which is what a continouos postional flow with strikes and kicks, feints and set-ups actually feels like from someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who is going to be disctinctly unresponsive to much of anything of the level that guy was doing -all while giving him him a couple of fistfulls for his trouble.
You're in for a very short and profound lesson on many levels of what live training really means-that ain't it.

Quote:
And that is the snag with clips like this vs. a hot situation clip: say a security camera caught an Aikidoka being mugged in a parking lot and the attack is foiled by the Aikidoka- that type of "hot" situation. That type of clip would redefine the discussion on Aikido effectiveness and answer Kevin and Dan's concerns and others expressed in this clip.
Actually you don't need a "hot" situation. There are a whole bunch of men who would be happy to give you as much "hot" as you could ever possibly handle, without you getting hurt much and they would even make sure you and they enjoyed yourselves while doing so, made notes and went and haad some beer after. Think of it like a free education without the hospital time needed to prove the point. It happens all the time in gyms all over the world.

The "re-defining aikido" you are looking for has been going on for many years and discussed to death by men who are exteremely well versed Phil-extremely.
Again, all due respect you seem to think your understanding is equal to men here who have been training for decades, and who have some interesting experiences they could share.
I would suggest, what you are discussing is such old news that I am surprised anyone is being polite enough to try and fill you in.
Try doing a search for the threads where these types of videos have been debunked by hundreds of posters with experience an understanding you might find beneficial

Quote:
Even though the clip with all its faults and short commings it does model effective Aikido techniques.
I think most of the waza shown is more in line with some low level jujutsu waza, and it shows the static positions of a choreographed response well in keeping with the fixed and staid straight line and one step attacks offered.

Quote:
But, a plus to the clip is the speed at which the techniques are done it.
So are these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK1q0...eature=related
It's called choreography. We're all just waiting for you to get what that really means


Quote:
The clip generally shows what we all us Aikidoka know. I think it is good for that purpose. If Aikido was about people pointing a finger the direction of the attacker and the attacker who went flying 10 feet away in mid air as a result, then I would say Aikido isn't effective.
Actually I would be very careful just who you think that "we all" encompasses. You have active duty military, bjjers, mmaers some ex bad guys, bouncers, active duty LEO and many other men who have been in the S#$# real time.
For some reason, I'm thinking it's a pretty sure bet that Kevin's, Roy's, Don's and many others "aikido" would you see your #1 video's subject's waza undone so fast you would....uhm....er...want to put it on a video.

Of a secondary discussion about the power in the point of a finger, you might want to ask around about some men with real power. It isn't as fruity a discussion as you might believe, and leave you yet again with a very rude awakening.
I can only say once again that it looks as if all posters opinions of the various subjects here are all equal, Phil, but it only looks that way.

Last edited by DH : 09-07-2008 at 11:50 PM.
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