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Old 06-25-2008, 05:24 PM   #151
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Ron
There are obviously many who are looking.
Just a few short years ago, here on this board, few believed we knew something that could be taught "outside' of aikido that was, all along, the power at the very heart of making aiki exist. Further that it could be gotten much faster than, doing kata for twenty years hoping to get there.
Anyone is Toronto area training/teaching "it"?
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:00 PM   #152
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

My opinion is that if people have other avenues for this sort of training I would like to know about them.

Dan trained smarter than I did. Maybe I can train smarter than he does someday and go beyond what he can do. Who knows. I think some of the yoga exercises I do and some of the misogi exercises I will eventually do may get me training even smarter than Dan. Who knows. This is the great thing about America! It's a melting pot.

Rob
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:02 PM   #153
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Not in any order or comprehensive, but Erick, William, Ignatius, etc. Well, you're getting kind of off topic. Can we go back to topic?
If I may, it is on topic because it directly relates to points 3 & 4 on Dan's question list:
3. How do you see it impacting the art.
4. What happens next in your training or school?

At the outset, let me just say that I don't fundamentally disagree with anything William has said. So the issue, for me, is not whether Aiki..do is in Aikido™ or not. The issue and how it relates to points 3 & 4 is highlighted by Mike's post here

As much as I enjoy the odd Zen parable, and can grasp the intent of fingers pointing at astral bodies, I think the vagaries and nebulous descriptions do little to help further bringing Aiki..do (back?) to the forefront of Aikido™ training - which I believe is what Dan rhetorical finger is fundamentally pointing at. Not everyone has the requisite Martial IQ threshold™ (no slight intended on Rob L or his teacher) to comprehend obtuse Zen whacking sticks... which I think has its place... but it's like a good joke - the punch-line delivery and timing is important, and unless it connects with your audience, it means nothing. If you're lucky, they might get the joke 5mins later, but it would have lost its initial impact.

So, despite the convoluted manner in which William has played a very sporting and unwitting part in my argument, I submit to you that knowing what "it" is, what it "feels" like is one thing. Being able to do it is quite another, but the crux of points 3 & 4 is being able to then transmit it to others so that it is replicable (on whatever level).

To which I point you to Mike's post #167.

Last edited by eyrie : 06-25-2008 at 07:05 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:32 PM   #154
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

No worries. I'm not offended by the idea that I am dumber than my aikido teacher. He's probably got me by 40 IQ points... It is what it is. As far as martial IQ, well, I'm not in special ed - but until I found a tutor recently, compared to him I might as well haven been considered "martially challenged".

I got a tutor in college too for some complex Math. That's what you do when you really want to understand something and there is a disconnect in the transmission from current teacher to student for whatever reason. I'm not ashamed. I would be be ashamed if I knew there was good help and I was too stubborn to go after it - and it hurt my progress and therefore the progress of everyone under me. If you are going to teach, I think you have a responsibility to actively and continually research the subject.

Rob
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:21 PM   #155
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
No worries. I'm not offended by the idea that I am dumber than my aikido teacher. He's probably got me by 40 IQ points... It is what it is. As far as martial IQ, well, I'm not in special ed - but until I found a tutor recently, compared to him I might as well haven been considered "martially challenged".

I got a tutor in college too for some complex Math. That's what you do when you really want to understand something and there is a disconnect in the transmission from current teacher to student for whatever reason. I'm not ashamed. I would be be ashamed if I knew there was good help and I was too stubborn to go after it - and it hurt my progress and therefore the progress of everyone under me. If you are going to teach, I think you have a responsibility to actively and continually research the subject.

Rob
I have to say that the last two posts by Ignatius and Rob are some of the best I have seen on where folks need to go.
Rob, the attitude expressed in that last post is great. It's a different kind of humilty and honest evaluation that has an edginess that goes right along with responsibilty to your own training and to those below you. The lack of shame or ego is refreshing.

One of my own stories is that I would come back from training and stand in a room full of guys -as their teacher- and tell them "We're gonna work on stuff tonight that I can't do" then proceed to stink up the place, and get thrown while I was training this stuff and failing. This went on for years with Judo guys and MMer's and wrestlers making fun of my efforts. "Heres your aiki for ya...." Till years later, I turned the tables on them. I could join in and fight-and did many times. but I kept opting for aiki as well. Many left, and I embarrassed myself more than a few times working on this stuff. Like you, I was never ashamed. I left all of that for the barn in the woods so I could improve on what was happening in my body. You've met a few of the guys from back then who stayed.
My point was that I think being willing to walk away from waza and walk headlong into this type of training training sometimes...costs.
I'd be willing to bet it always has.

I hope you never stop searching, digging and innovating.

Last edited by DH : 06-25-2008 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:26 AM   #156
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We seem to have once again successfully gone beyond debating the reality of "it," So, instead of debating each other can we stick to the thread and talk about how folks are training it and how they are trying to incorporate it into their aikido.... why not just skip to technical discussion instead of teacher / student relationships; who got what and when and so forth, and instead lets focus the discussion on:
What 'it" was, and if it was worth the having.
In that light, let me suggest some categories and open it to everyone for comment, critique, (blast) etc.,

There are many, many valid ways of expressing the concept of an irreducible concrete reality. I don;t think any one here is contending there is any different concrete reality we are talking about -- and the resort to ad-hom assumptions about people's bonafides of understanding (vice levels of skill in performance, which are not at issue here, given Dan's framing of the topic) doesn't change that.

Some ways of approach are mythopoetic and more ritualized (Abe, for example, and Shaun follwoing himon that particular theme of O Sensei). Some adopt the mythic elements lose the ritualized components (losing a significant functional component of that scheme, IMO, and enter a slippery slope to aiki-bunnydom).

Some are relentlessly pragmatic (Dan) to the near exclusion of conceptualized expression. Some are able, but self-critical open ended inquirers (Rob L.). Some are knowledgeable of a body of non-western empirical systematic understanding, (Mike S.) That is so comprehensive in its own terms, it does not easily make room for alien concepts, like physics.

Some (like me) find that there is valuable empirical and sense-guidance information in the expressions of myth, (e.g. -- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0623175435.htm) and in the systems of empirical understanding familiar to Mike. But that (as with misogi ritual) it needs pairing with set of physical understandings in our common terms if it is to function as a useful guide to actual practice.

That last is now lacking: a rigorous Western physical model for the same thing that Abe and related approaches accomplish with misogi in wholly traditional terms. O Sensei actually points that direction in Budo Renshu (notably before the War) toward a more scientific understanding or guidance of the elements or principles found in that tradition,. Saotome, IMO has taken that road, and tellingly, came West to do it.

There is a reason that I think O Sensei abandoned that approach for himself, pointedly -- after the War. That same reason that he abandoned it is exactly why we Westerners ought to take it up. I think he came to the conclusion that Western science divorced from Western spirituality was dangerous -- evidenced by Japan's experience (and a theme I heartily agree with). He sought to reinvigorate his native spiritual grounding as part of the conceptual understanding giving rise to the physical expression of the art -- in Japanese terms.

We would suffer the same type danger (with different consequence) if we took the half-a loaf approach on our side, adopting a spiritual grounding that is at odds with our means of conceptualizing and then expressing the physical aspects of the art. I think this has happened in many places and is the root cause for many complaints on this subject. Conversely, what Shaun is doing -- following Abe and the misogi approach doesn't have that problem --they are adopting the whole package, and to the extent they internalize it, there is no reason it would suffer from the disconnect problem I just noted.

The pragmatic approach suffices (when has it not?) , but not necessarily with great efficiency and only through sheer force of will (not lacking in Dan, apparently) -- because it has little or no map. Dan may be an intrepid explorer, but this ground is not unexplored. We have a couple different versions of the map: on the one hand, in a drawing convention and language we can learn, if we choose, or, on the other hand we can re-draw it according to our own conventions and a translation of the legend made into our terms.

There is only one terrain and it does not differ. With the right map, we can see where else there is to go, what might be there to find, and different ways to go to get there that suit both our interest and resources.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:34 AM   #157
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

This has become one of my favorite threads.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:03 AM   #158
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Eric
As a relentlessly pragmatic guy-let me ask you a theoretical question. How do you arrive at telling me I am "exploring areas that have no map?"
I didn't invent anything-I followed.

If we are discussing models. I think you suffer for lack of skill and understanding. I know of no one who will vet you, or state your Aiki skills are of a high level or extraordinary in any way. This is, of course coupled with your self professed inability to do many of the things we and others state we can do. In light of that and in context of the thread, what value is there in anything you have to say?
Further, you have stated plainly that you think the yudansha; including 5th and 6th dans and Menkyos who have felt these things are incompetent or incapable to judge or have been hood winked by personal charm or charisma.
Your dismissal of your fellow Aikidoka-many of whom appear to be your seniors in experience and ability- was noted. Again, thank you. We see where you stand.
a)You can't do these things.
b)You don't believe anyone who has felt it.
They will continue to work and imbue their Aikido™ with Aiki...do all the same.
Next?

Last edited by DH : 06-26-2008 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:37 AM   #159
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

kokyu in space seems to have some inherent problems...

I have a fairly good idea of what Dan is talking about.
I've read Mike for years and based on that I'm certain they are on the same playing field with these "core skills".
Ignatius, I took a while off from reading aikiweb and I would love to read your descriptions now. Would you be willing to post a few links or PM. I'm not challenging you on this, I would just love to read another perspective.

I have no problem with people thinking their teacher is the best. I kind of wonder more about people who think their teacher is terrible. And lets face it, we pour so much of our life energy into a training methodology that when someone challenges that methodology they are also saying in essence "you have wasted a lot of your life's work". Who the heck wants to hear that? I _guess_ I am fortunate in a sense that I've been there, done that, got MANY tee-shirts (literally). No one "told" me directly, I just kept taking Gleason sensei's ukemi and after about 5 years I realized how far off track I had been before I met him. I actually trained with some good aikido teachers prior to Gleason sensei in my quest but I was already too mentally set in my ways to "see" what was good about those other teachers.

Here is my opinion: There is an amount of "finesse" in aikido-proper that I sincerely doubt I COULD learn from Dan or Mike or any of the more-direct-aiki-"power" guys.
1) Dan and maybe some of the other guys can help me with more direct aiki "power" training.
-If my other training (yoga/active isolated stretching and various aikido-proper approaches) enables me to pass them OR if not, if anything I'm doing proves helpful, I'll be able to "give back" to some degree.
-Otherwise, I will endeavor to become a better training partner and hopefully give back in that way in and in maybe helping out juniors to off load some of their teaching/coaching time.

2) Gleason sensei can/will help me translate what I am learning about more-direct-aiki-"power" into aikido-proper (which has a "finesse" I believe is helpful and useful - and if I'm wrong about that then it's still just plain cool and still want to study it).
-I'll have much more physical manifestation of principles with which I can study the kotodama, and go a bit more spiritual with this (which I'm positive would honor his vision).
-I am 100% certain that it would make him extremely pleased if I can pass him out in ability.
-If I can't but what I'm doing inspires him to grow in a different way then that it fine too. It's my job to give back if I can.

3) Shaun can help me with Misogi practices (when I can make time in my life to approach this - which I think will be sooner than later).
-If he has "it" then he can help me extremly quickly.
-If not, then there is a good potential for us to help each other.

4) Maybe there is some finesse things or aikido-proper strategy things I can learn from the Nishio "camp" or anyone else's approach like maybe Erick's for instance - and there is probably some trading that can go on there to various degrees.

The point here is we have the opportunity to come together in a way that we haven't EVER been. That's where my focus for the future is.

And if no one is interested, there are plently of other martial arts I like - and I can swtich focus a bit if it comes to it.

Rob
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:32 AM   #160
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric
As a relentlessly pragmatic guy-let me ask you a theoretical question. How do you arrive at telling me I am "exploring areas that have no map?"
I didn't invent anything-I followed.
From your DTR background -- Sagawa, whom you quote, is quite "clear" that the only "map" he gave was rudimentary at best. In the system as he taught it -- either people get it on their own by observing its action in the process of the system per se -- or they don't -- and he seems not really too concerned about that one way or the other ... Nor was Takeda for that matter.

Quote:
Sagawa -- 'Clear Power' wrote:
I don't teach everything, and I can't teach everything. What I can teach is the foundation of how the skeletal system works. How your muscles and organs work upon that frame is for you to ponder and discover on your own. You can't simply fight using your bones alone.
This is why you can't simply do things as you are told. You must add the "meat" to this frame and widen your view. It's a funny thing, you can learn all there is to learn, but unless you grasp it for yourself you will never be able to actually "do" it.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If we are discussing models. I think you suffer for lack of skill and understanding. I know of no one who will vet you, or state your Aiki skills are of a high level or extraordinary in any way. This is, of course coupled with your self professed inability to do many of the things we and others state we can do.
Non sequitur. You can discuss models or you make your ad hominem lacking any evidence for it -- but they are not the same thing - nor remotely related. And repeatedly misrepresenting my statements is neither germane -- nor particularly nice.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In light of that and in context of the thread, what value is there in anything you have to say?
Why don't you take apart what I have ACTUALLY said (instead of recasting it for mere rhetorical effect , which was the reason, you will recall, for my criticism) and see for yourself? I am only interested in properly framing the concept of Aiki for a western understanding:

Quote:
Yukioshi Sagawa -- "Clear Power" wrote:
However, if you train too much before you grasp the concept of Aiki, then this is no good.
Dan. Articulate the concept of Aiki.

I do not pretend this is the same as someone grasping what you or I mean by it, but, if it is to be useful tot he analytic Western mind , IT MUST BE ARTICULATED even if in succinct terms -- to aid its ultimate grasp in practice -- otherwise people are just being led in the darkness. A flash of lighting does not get one to the shelter at the top of the hill but it reveals the lay of the land to the observant.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Further, you have stated plainly that you think the yudansha; including 5th and 6th dans and Menkyos who have felt these things are incompetent or incapable to judge or have been hood winked by personal charm or charisma.
Horse hockey. There you go again -- specifically misrepresenting my statement -- in this very thread. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=130
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Rhetoric is not argument.

Dan seems to persuade people he meets, whether he does so with real points of substantive difference from the aiki in aikido training that we know, a gifted insight into that training that many have simply missed, or merely with charisma, charm and a talent with magician's arts, none of it is proved by that.
In my part of the world, we are taught to treat people we do not know as hospitably as we can under the circumstances. I hesitate to doubt your upbringing and cast your ancestors into disrepute, so I will assume it is a unfortunately frequent lapse. I give you the benefit of any doubt, and you on the other hand, proceed with your doubt as a firm conviction.

You need to read the situation before you respond to it, my friend. Some people might take it the wrong way. That's bad budo, and in that respect it doesn't matter who you are or what you can do -- it is suki and you need to correct it -- whether in this forum or any other. As ot the merits of my criticism, well let someone else say it ...

Quote:
Sagawa wrote:
<If you decide because> others tell you so, or influence you, then it's no good. You must hold your own counsel. Decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.
No matter how accomplished a person is, he is never perfect. Never hold what he says to be gospel. If you do, then it will obstruct your own determination to innovate and find things out for yourself. You must take what you learn, and then innovate it based on your own ideas.
...
No matter how much you learn something, if it is simply taught to you, you will forget it. However you will never forget something you acquire for yourself. It becomes you.
One reason I take no offense, is that I am continually fascinated with this recurring response by you, as I am 1) not attacking what you are doing , nor 2) doubting your bona fides in doing what you say, but simply examining a physical model of things, and suggesting that the model exists within the tradition as it stands, if properly seen. That is no threat to you or what you propose so why the animosity?

Quote:
Sagawa wrote:
There are many things in this world that people still do not understand, so you must not have any pre-conceptions about things. This applies to Aiki as well. This is why I can continue to innovate and change my Aiki.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:42 AM   #161
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Sagawa wrote:
There are many things in this world that people still do not understand, so you must not have any pre-conceptions about things. This applies to Aiki as well. This is why I can continue to innovate and change my Aiki.
Thank you for this Eric...It was an easy quote to find and in tune with what folks like O'Sensei, Tohei, Abe, and Shoji Nishio have said about Aikido...

We are all on the same path and there is no need to carry any rocks we "find" along the way any further than we have to.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-26-2008 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:49 AM   #162
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
The point here is we have the opportunity to come together in a way that we haven't EVER been. That's where my focus for the future is.

And if no one is interested, there are plently of other martial arts I like - and I can swtich focus a bit if it comes to it.

Rob
Amen Rob! Great Post and count me in! I would love to learn and share!

William Hazen
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:29 AM   #163
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi folks,

Please direct your discussions of a personal nature to private means. I don't think this thread nor the AikiWeb Forums is the venue for such.

-- Jun

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Old 06-26-2008, 11:43 AM   #164
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Erik
I'm sorry you took it so personal. You continue to bring me up, speak about what I do or how I think. I didn't take it personal. We've all asked you over the years if you could duplicate the things we do, and you were very honest about your limits in other threads.
As Mike said you continue to badger, asking for evidence;
Our explanations have all been discredited by you because they do not fit your equations
So now you have dozens and dozens of testimony that you also now discredit as being no evidence at all. you even started alluding to the fact that folks were somehow hoodwinked or brought into a cult of personality. Come on man.
Yet in the midst of persistent and very strong calls for evidence by you-to date you have produced none demonstrating that you even know what we are talking about
Since you also offer no explanations, I was looking for your personal abilities to be vetted by someone
There is no personal attack or agenda. As I said I am happy to come down, shoot the breeze, train, and show you just what you're missing. And I'll buy dinner.
I disagree strongly with ya, but don't take things personal.
Overall I'd be happiest hearing from those with experience in training these skills. You made a clear statement where you donlt agree. Why not go to another thread to discuss your ideas.
I've thanked you for stating your views already. Why contaminate the thread and rehash old news.
Thanks again

Last edited by DH : 06-26-2008 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:20 PM   #165
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Erik

. As I said I am happy to come down, shoot the breeze, train, and show you just what you're missing.
that's so unfair! Erik gave you grief and you are willing to show up at his place, train, and buy him dinner. How do I get on that wagon? Can I put in my bid? I'd put you up at my place, you teach me your stuffs, and I'll make you dinners (buy too if you want). you can skip Erik and all the aggravations. Besides, Florida is just too hot and humid this time of year.
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:33 PM   #166
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Yeah PHI,
Because everytime I have been in Charlotte its been snowing

Howie
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:36 PM   #167
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

Please direct your discussions of a personal nature to private means. I don't think this thread nor the AikiWeb Forums is the venue for such.

-- Jun
I understand Jun and my apologies for my part. I have taken this "discussion" to PM with the relevent people.

William Hazen
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:14 PM   #168
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
that's so unfair! Erik gave you grief and you are willing to show up at his place, train, and buy him dinner. How do I get on that wagon? Can I put in my bid? I'd put you up at my place, you teach me your stuffs, and I'll make you dinners (buy too if you want). you can skip Erik and all the aggravations. Besides, Florida is just too hot and humid this time of year.
Well Erik really isn’t giving me grief-we're just debating. I don't think he's a bad egg. We disagree is all. And its only martial arts.
I'm trying to figure out a Florida trip and I think if I showed Erik what I do he’d want to do it and train it. I am equally convinced that (my apologies Erik) he doesn't have a clue about this stuff, and that he takes his training seriously so he will want it,

As for training hey, I'm only one guy. There's Mike, Ark, Rob maybe some ICMA people, Howard, he's got similar training to me. So there are others out there to get this from. I ain't no big deal
And I don't teach, I just practice....allot...with people who happen to keep showing up all the time.
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:56 PM   #169
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You continue to bring me up, speak about what I do or how I think.
Well, it is your thread...
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[??] persistent and very strong calls for evidence by you-to date you have produced none demonstrating that you even know what we are talking about ...
Since you also offer no explanations, I was looking for your personal abilities to be vetted by someone.
Gee, where is my film crew? Why? "Shoot, who let this guy past the bouncers?" Heck, they must be on break.

"Where are we at?" Your question. I asked you to articulate the Aiki that is the subject of the thread. I don't doubt you do what you say, or that you do it better than me or any one. That wasn't my question. I am doing what Sagawa, your exemplar, said, which is to frame the concept of Aiki , in my own terms. Is not the exposure, to us, of you and your ideas part of what you hope to accomplish here -- to see what may have changed from this engagement with you and your approach? Is that not the topic of the thread?

I have engaged you. And Mike. That you do not care for the manner or subject on which I have engaged , or have responded differently than I may have preferred, is beside the point .

Granted, my attempts at engagement with you and Mike seem to regularly end up like playing tennis against a concrete wall, but -- hey -- that is even good training in tennis. I am not sure how the wall feels about it, though. I used to get about the same in discussion with street preachers in the summer in my high school years -- but that did not make it any less worthwhile. Similar degree of intransigence, too. - Again, I am entranced that when I lay some points of physics into the discussion -- the ad hominem drops as regular as a 3:00 p.m. thunderstorm in a Florida summer.

People can judge the ideas on their own merits, and who I am matters -- not at all.

I may not articulate what the physical model is as well as it could or should be be done -- but YOU (as I am trying to point out) -- haven't -- even -- tried.

Try. It's not a demand -- its a request. You don't have to, but I'm asking. Nicely. Not because I am not satisfied with mine, but because IT IS THE TOPIC OF YOUR THREAD. I've told you what I've been working on with you playing mere backstop, at your election. Keiko is EQUALLY the mind/heart as in the body, and you haven't read Sagawa carefully enough if you do not understand that. All the skill in the world can be defeated by the most simplistic strategy. A superior knowledge of the means and ground of the fight will invariably defeat objectively superior means and methods. Sharpening Knowledge of the body and its mechanics is EXACTLY what Sagawa said you should be doing, not merely honing your received mechanical actions -- regardless of their effectiveness.

A physical model ain't math or equations nor even diffy-q, it is merely a physical model of the action. It doesn't require the first equal sign, unless you are inclined that way. Build up your own physical model or deconstruct mine, or ignore it all together-

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-26-2008 at 02:59 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:43 PM   #170
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Erik
Where is the film crew? I thought that and a calculator was your line for me.
Thanks for the post.

Again, if you go back and read- my intent with the thread-it was
a) To talk to those who went out to train.with us and find out how it's going?
b) How are they training?
c) How are they incorporating it into their aikido?
d) How is it affecting their aikido?
And then
e) Ask the larger community what they thought of the testimony that came back
f) Did it chang their reminds since it was at one time so controversial a topic.

You answered E and F you aren't qualified to answer any other.
Thank you for responding though...again.
I then asked that the thread no degenerate into yet another debate over whether or not these skills exist or to engage me in a debate about it.
Which you keep doing. Please stay on topic and address those who came and their ability or interests in incorporating these skills onto their Aikido.
thanks again, I appreciate the effort.
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:03 PM   #171
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

I have one more comment to make about "it's all the same path".

Most styles/approaches of aikido have some aiki power and a lot of finesse to protect the structurally weaker positions. Here is the thing. Not all paths go to the same place BECAUSE what happens is that many of the "finesse" movements we burn in to avoid structural weaknesses GET IN THE WAY of the body training needed to develop aiki "power".

I think that's the main issue with "All paths lead to Rome". They really don't all go to aiki power - in fact few do.

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. It is an important thing to consider. What we need to do is come together and share both aiki power and finesse secrets. As soon as I'm able, I intend to do just that.

But I have to admit, I would be interested in setting up some sempai compassion rating system website where people's juniors get a say in how kind and supportive a person is who wants to learn aiki power. We really don't need MORE people with more power than compassion.

Rob
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:01 PM   #172
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Rob,

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I have a fairly good idea of what Dan is talking about. I've read Mike for years and based on that I'm certain they are on the same playing field with these "core skills"... I have no problem with people thinking their teacher is the best. I kind of wonder more about people who think their teacher is terrible.
I think teachers can only show the student where the door is... you've actually got to step over the "threshold" and walk thru the door yourself. I'm pretty sure there's a reason why Mike keeps repeating certain things to "get your foot in the door"...

Quote:
I took a while off from reading aikiweb and I would love to read your descriptions now. Would you be willing to post a few links or PM. I'm not challenging you on this, I would just love to read another perspective.
Not sure if I have anything more to add than you already know, or the people you have access to, I'm here for the same reasons you are. But check your PM soon anyway... we have more in common than you may possibly be aware of.... but FIRST... you'd have to clear your mailbox, dude.

Quote:
Here is my opinion: There is an amount of "finesse" in aikido-proper that I sincerely doubt I COULD learn from Dan or Mike or any of the more-direct-aiki-"power" guys.
"Power" and "finesse" are 2 separate things... one relates to "ability" and the other to "refined control". I'm guessing you'd want to get (a) first and then (b).... although I would think that there's nothing wrong with trying to get (b) first and slowly working on (a) or both at the same time. Is one way quicker or better than another, or is it purely a preference thing? Quicker for what? Better for what? Or would one way benefit another more so than someone else, based on where they're at? Or, perhaps you need both at the same time... and with one comes the other?

I dunno... but it would be far more interesting to discuss something like that.

Ignatius
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:13 AM   #173
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

You can further sub-divide what I am calling "power" into smaller classifications of "internal harmony" and the finesse(s) of just that.

Or I suppose I can qualify what was classifying as "finesse" as something more accurate like "finesse not powered by internal harmony" and "finesse powered by a very SMALL DEGREE of internal harmony".

But It seemed like breaking things apart at such gross levels was the best place to "start".

Rob
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:33 PM   #174
Fred Little
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
You can further sub-divide what I am calling "power" into smaller classifications of "internal harmony" and the finesse(s) of just that.

Or I suppose I can qualify what was classifying as "finesse" as something more accurate like "finesse not powered by internal harmony" and "finesse powered by a very SMALL DEGREE of internal harmony".

But It seemed like breaking things apart at such gross levels was the best place to "start".

Rob
Hi Rob,

So I'm sitting on the sofa this morning and my wife walks over and hands me a flexible ice cube tray that is full and frozen hard and asks me if I can pop some ice loose for her.

I start to twist it with my forearms and realize that there's absolutely no way that I can pop the ice loose that way without popping ice fragments all over my laptop, the floor, the dog hair on the sofa, etcetera.

I backed off, and then twisted in two opposite directions internally -- in the hara-- while using my hands and forearms only to transmit the force. Nice clean break, no scatter, and my wife is happy to have ice cubes for a glass of iced tea on a hot summer morning.

My point? We often think of finesse as a matter of subtlety in the hands. In this case, in order to get finesse, I had no choice but to establish internal harmony, and use my hands only to align the ice tray with that harmony.

Maybe I could line up a hundred ice trays and train to a point where I could "finesse" the break with no internal harmony, doing it solely with my hands. But I'm not yet sure if I would want to do that, or if I did, why I would.

On the other hand, if I hadn't spent a bunch of years trying to get some subtlety and "finesse" into my hands, I don't know if I could have found the right hand shape to transmit the internal twist as quickly as I did.

So basically, I don't have a clue, but at least I'm not in trouble with my wife for making a mess while getting her ice cubes.

Best,

Fred
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:53 PM   #175
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Well, first off - I'm not a subject matter expert here - I think I'm a "subject matter novice" at this point. From that POV, I would say you described in yo ho fairly well in some of the 6 directions. I think you have to work out the others to be standing/sitting with perfect internal harmony which is not yet "aiki" - just "internal power".

Once someone dares push into you with a tray of ice cubes, you can transmit that internal harmony through the tray of cubes into them, and chose to pop all of the ice out of the tray or not. That would be aiki (thought of as finesse as internal power) although with the ice tray I suppose it would be "silly aiki".

When I'm talking about the "gross level of finesse" - I mean those motions people train to avoid anyone pressing into their structural weaknesses. If that is supposed to only mean something done with hands then I suppose I need a better word/phrase for describing the idea I was trying to put forth.

I'm thinking that I could probably rig a trick ice tray and make a funny youtube video for this but I'm too lazy to actually do that.

Rob
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