Does size count?

Peter,

You gave me a lot to catch up on....Let me know if I miss something.

Paul - you are right it is restrictive. There is a compromise between lessons to be learnt and safety. Are you telling me that there are no compromises of this sort in your training. Same question to Jim.

No, of course not. As I mentioned in another thread (I think it was the "challenges" thread) safety is priority number 1 in a training environment.

What I meant by restrictive is I would like to get grips, throw and grapple (a la judo or bjj) in Shodokan tanto shiai. Just my own personal preference based on the what you and Sean have described.

A good number of people refuse to try after seeing it using any number of excuses. Hey its hard to face something new. Of those that have tried I have never seen anyone giggling afterward. Huge smiles maybe but never giggling.

"kicks and giggles" is an expression similar to "I'd try for fun". No insult was intended. I've competed in a number of shiai for kicks and giggles...learned something every time (and was terrified before my matches every time).

Um both uke and tori are permitted atemi waza. Paul it is not just a matter of tori attempting another technique. Uke has full opprotunity to attempt his own and both can switch techniques, counter and resist in any number of ways. In fact there is no tori and uke - it is referred to as tanto and toshu for the very reason that the roles are so blurred.

Peter, I was responding to Colleen and referring to training, not shiai. The point I was trying to make was if nage gets to say, "well, I'll just use atemi and make uke move" then in my mind (and where I trained in the past) it was fine for uke to use additional atemi...which generally breaks training down into something that isn't helpful. What Colleen described in her post sounds like a training issue to me, not a size issue.

So Paul - if you don't do Aikido - what do you do and how does your training apply real pressure.

Peter, you and I know each other from the AJBB. I trained (past tense) aikido for 5 1/2 years. I have been training bjj since 1997. In bjj we roll ("spar") on a daily basis. I have rolled with professional mixed martial arts fighters, gold medalists from the Pan Ams in bjj, NCAA D1 wrestlers, national level judo players, bjj blackbelts all the way on down to folks who have just started training. While I have always trained bjj at a sport school, I have trained and rolled adding any and all strikes (both standing and on the ground) and knives (both standing and on the ground). Does that answer your question?

Again, I want to stress I train at a sport school (the primary goal of the school is bjj techniques that would be allowable in sport grappling situations --- this is not a "fighter's school" nor a "self-defense" school...both of which I have seen, and both of which are a lot more intense.) Also, I've had those opportunities to roll and train with some truly fantastic folks, I myself am not considered to be particularly talented.

Regards,

Paul

I actually agree. There is a lot to be learned in a controlled envionment. However, in certain classes we do "let go", it is up to nage to keep uke safe, whereas the uke is trying to "get" nage by any means necessary. I've just got home from a class where as much resistance as you could muster from a nikkyo application was tried. In certain cases the immobilisation worked, in some it did'nt. It teaches the things that work and those that don't.
Have fun.

So, size matters in Aikido as does everything else, but it doesn't set you at advantage or disadvantage if you can work within the principles.

I'm curious about the "training method" thread. Do you see a problem with all non sport Aikido training?

Thanks Paul for the clarification, you covered everything well. Yes I remember you and we are really not that far apart in our opinions. I've started training in Judo to a) round out my jujitsu training (as in Aikido is a form of jujitsu) and also to improve on my Shodokan randori. I really believe that the forms of randori training in both Judo and Shodokan Aikido offer a lot to understanding how your art works or doesn't. Even the ultimate extention of that, shiai, needs to be experienced.

The second time I forgot to pack my white belt so I told the sensei that I would return in five minutes (I live close). No he says wear that - I shrug. In walks two young Shodans built like tanks that I had never met, he points to me, says randori and walks away. Let's say I had an interesting experience.

Originally posted by AikiAlf I'm curious about the "training method" thread. Do you see a problem with all non sport Aikido training?

Hi Alfonso;

Please remember that, especially in Shodokan Aikido, the randori talked about is only a component of the training, and shiai (the sport) is not the focus. At Honbu randori tends to be done after class - grab a partner and go for it. Regular class is techniques and more techniques.

Look at it this way. Every dojo has a training goal modified by individual members. The different training exercises whether drills or techniques are designed to reach that goal while maintaining the health and integrety of the members. Even elite military units do not train full out in combat - they leave that to when they need it.

To answer your question then, there is a lot in non-Shodokan Aikido training that is useful, we do it ourselves. I believe though that an important lesson is not being learnt.

Jim: you still have nage and uke designations and that is where the distinction lies. However, both partners in randori are responsible for the safety of each other so that doesn't change.

Hi All,

I've been busy the last few days, and it seems this thread has been very interesting while I was gone. I dont have much of interest to add to the excellent points already made by others, so I'll leave it at that.

Paul, when you say:

Finally, as I've mentioned before I don't think size is sole factor of success. My assertion is simply, that like other physical attributes, size does matter, particularly when experience and skill are similar.

I have to say, I agree entirely.

Ironically enough, one of the things thats kept me busy while 'sport' aikido has been under discussion was taking part in the annual BAA British National competition.

As Peter R. said: "The rules in Shodokan Aikido are designed so that your Aikido not your steriod consumption is tested."

After the BAA nationals, I think I'd add that, in the heat of open competition, you also need a skilled referee to apply those rules. I'm afraid I saw some extremely questionable refereeing, something we (the British) really need to work on over the next 12 months, before the rest of the world's Shodokan comes over here to play in 2003!

Peter R. wrote:

The second time I forgot to pack my white belt so I told the sensei that I would return in five minutes (I live close). No he says wear that - I shrug. In walks two young Shodans built like tanks that I had never met, he points to me, says randori and walks away. Let's say I had an interesting experience.

I trust your ukemi were up to the task.

I thought you had decided to take up a koryu, rather than getting into Judo while you're so far from Honbu. Did you change your mind?

Regards
Sean
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Hi Sean;

Haven't given up on the Koryu idea but I want to do that right - will being talking to Nariyama about that this weekend.

Judo group meets twice a week near my house. Several very senior people have suggested I do so. Ishihara sensei (6th Dan Kodokan Judo, 7th Dan Aikido) did so right in front of Nariyama while we were drinking togeather. I need to improve and soften up my Shodokan randori - told the Judo will help and I have a Judo Godan as an almost private instructor. The dojo is run by a sixth dan but the godan and I practice togeather. Very tall, very tough looking, smells of smoke, but ... well its an experience.

And yes I was really worried about my ukemi, but the Shodokan ukemi is far tougher.

You are right - referreeing is very important as is the right attitude amoung compeditors. You do get a few brutes here in Japan also but generally speaking the Japanese do better because of softness, timing and control. That is what I am trying to learn.

Trying to get back to the original question. Does size count? - Of course it does, I can't beleive that almost half of the awnsers are "No".

Everything counts!

/Robert

Originally posted by Robert E Trying to get back to the original question. Does size count? - Of course it does, I can't beleive that almost half of the awnsers are "No".

Of course everything counts - I thought the question was how dominant size was in the equation. The digression was not really a digression at all since shiai is one of the better ways of testing what works against who. Again and again I have seen little guys of defeat larger opponents.

Actually what does count far more than actual size is fitness. To come out on top you must keep moving as either tanto or toshu. The rounds may be short but wow - they suck the energy right out of you. Still the main determining factor is skill and experience.

Originally posted by PeterR You do get a few brutes here in Japan also but generally speaking the Japanese do better because of softness, timing and control. That is what I am trying to learn.

Me too.

Sean
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The first year I did Aikido, we had Rick Stickles sensei come do a seminar for LBI. ( he is a student of Shirata sensei and Y. Yamada /USAF)

Rick (I say Rick because we are not on the mat and we are almost the same age), came over and helped the fellow I was doing Irimi with to get a handle on how to smooth out his throw.

When he changed his technique slightly and was able to throw me with little to no effort, Rick asked, how did that feel?

My partner responded that it felt like nothing ... at which the seminar stopped and we proceded to demonstate nothing compared to forceful Irimi by two large fellows near 300 pounds.

The Zen answer was that it was just as right as it was wrong, but it was another answers to force verses feeling almost no force with almost no force being more effective!

There are structural, mechanical means to explain what takes more force, less force, and how big can over small ... but when you can feel the practice of a throw as almost nothing, the big verses small arguement is that much less valid ...

Unless you view the Zen answer?

(Thanks to all sensei's with a sense of humor!)

I was thinking about this for a bit today at work and a good point came up.

From the martial artist point more physical strength in Aikido could be a down fall. O Sensie said that he did not truly learn the ways of Aikido intill he lost his youth strength. To replace physical strength with ki and Aikido moves one will get the most out of Aikido.

Just my 2 cents