Aiki and cross training

My aikido instructor showed me a variation of shihonage that is really more of a kotegaeshi. I was asking his advice for a setup to use when getting my posture broke while standing or on my knees in bjj (kinda like a failed shot.) After telling him my ideas on what I thought was possible, and what I have been trying. He showed me a great way to get a quick submission or at the very least a good pin that I can use to secure a north/south.

I can tell you this is something my bjj and judo coaches would never think of. Very aiki, very slick movement. However, as great as I could do it at my aikido class, when I took it to the mat in bjj it took me a better part of an hour setting it up in sparing to finally get it. There were tons of things that I had to account for and learn that were not pointed out in the compliant kata like training it was shown in aikido. Once I got it, it was sweet and I ended up getting it 2 more times before I left. Without that cross training, I would not of had the forum I needed to make this technique work, hell I don't even think I would know this technique even exists. Now its a part of me and something I can wait to break out on the higher belts the next week.

IMHO

There is much to learn from all martial arts .You don't eat only one food or wear one type of clothes, do you?Your devotion to Aikido can only be enhanced by sampling what other styles offer.One should not remain insular in his studies.The possibilities of development are infinite if you open yourself up to variety.Your Aikido doesn't have to take a back seat to outside studies.Go for it!

I think cross training is important to becoming a complete martial artist. Some styles at better on the ground, some at short distances, some at long distances ect. Plus having experience in different styles allows you the ability to vary your attack. You don't box a boxer, You would not try to trade kicks with a TKD expert. You wouldnt want to end up grappling with a BJJ expert..

Don Magee wrote: ..... Now its a part of me and something I can wait to break out on the higher belts the next week.

And so long as they don't read thois forum, they'll never see it coming. Sorry; couldn't resist!

I think don's pretty safe on that score.
I'd be interested in more deal on the move though.....

Michael Fooks wrote: I think don's pretty safe on that score. I'd be interested in more deal on the move though.....

I'll try to explain it.

You just shot in for a single leg, or maybe you are on your knees with a person on top of you facing you, or some variation of this position. A lot of the time a person will try to go for the guillotine choke, or they will try to secure a grab on your lapel or wrist. What you do is grab their hand with a cross hand grab gently near the thumb in a way that will let you turn the wrist like a kotegaeshi. Now this is the hard part, you need to spin your whole body as a single unit in towards the arm you are grabbing as you do this you are turning the wrist like a single handed kotegaeshi. This should pull their arm across your chest and you should be spinning over onto your back. Keep spinning all the way though to your stomach again, you should be flat and not on your knees. The spin is a drop and spin if you can picture that. It should pull them forward then the pressure on their arm/wrist should force them to move with you. As you complete the spin you are escaping your head (usually this happens normally) and you are tying their arm up like a shihonage (again if the head is clear, this happens naturally) as they fall on to their back. You should end with all your weight basically pinning their arm to the mat next to their head in a wrist lock (like a goose neck). This would be the part in the shihonage where the throw would be happening, but instead he is pinned to the mat. You should be on your knees with all your weight holding that hand down. He might tap, or he will try to spin out to escape, as he spins you want to switch hands to keep control of the wrist and keep it tight to the mat, and move to side or north south.

Its a horrible explanation, but its the best I can do with words.

interesting - will try after my injuries heal up.

Don Magee wrote: ..... You should end with all your weight basically pinning their arm to the mat next to their head in a wrist lock (like a goose neck). This would be the part in the shihonage where the throw would be happening, but instead he is pinned to the mat .....

Not sure if you alreay knew this, but as an aside, there are a couple of ways to pin with shiho nage. One way -- which you see in Moreiteru Doshu's book -- is to hang onto uke's hand and follow him (or her) all the way down. This is trickier than it sounds, because for uke's safety, you have to drop quickly enough so his/her hand hits the mat before the rest of the body. If the body hits first, the unwinding of the arm could lead to inujury.

Due to flexibility issues, I can't drop quickly enough to get the hand on the mat first, but I have been on the business end of it when done correctly -- it's an intresting feeling of being controled all the way down.

Of course, the foregoing is from the standard standing reference points, but you can adapt it.

The joint locks -- ikkyo, nikkyo, and sankyo -- can also be used as throws. Sankyo nage can be pretty insane. But this shouldn't be a surprise because shiho nage is also based on a joint lock.

If you already knew all that, mea culpa. If not, thought you'd find it interesting.

Just my 2p.

Brian Northrup wrote: Hi all, I have a question, i hope this subject hasn't been broached before, and if so i apologize. Is it possible to train in AIKIDO, phyisicaly, philosophicaly, and spiritualy, while cross training in other martial arts? I am not refering to Tai Chi or arts like that, or even aikijujutsu, i am asking about the more combative arts. Or would you consider this trainig to go against the ultimate aim O'SENSEI meant for Aikido?

Hi, Brian,

Well, philosophically and spiritually, remember that the intent behind all arts is not to go out and attack other people but to be able to handle yourself should you be attacked. The toughest fighters I know also are the nicest guys. Case in point: Guro Kevin. Nice guy, isn't he? Want to go toe-to-toe with him if he's going at his level? I rest my case. Aikido may go a bit farther at this than other arts, and even then, it's more in the "flavor" of the techniques and how you practice than anything anyone recites to you.

Physically, I think sure, why not. I think the main thing about Aikido is not that its techniques are unique -- Kali has the same locks, more or less --- but that you spend a lot of time on them and should become instantly aware of the possibility when it arises. So far this has only happened to me with push hands or freestyle lockflow, but you get the picture.

So "yes" on both counts.

Michael Gallagher wrote: Not sure if you alreay knew this, but as an aside, there are a couple of ways to pin with shiho nage. One way -- which you see in Moreiteru Doshu's book -- is to hang onto uke's hand and follow him (or her) all the way down. This is trickier than it sounds, because for uke's safety, you have to drop quickly enough so his/her hand hits the mat before the rest of the body. If the body hits first, the unwinding of the arm could lead to inujury. Due to flexibility issues, I can't drop quickly enough to get the hand on the mat first, but I have been on the business end of it when done correctly -- it's an intresting feeling of being controled all the way down. Of course, the foregoing is from the standard standing reference points, but you can adapt it. The joint locks -- ikkyo, nikkyo, and sankyo -- can also be used as throws. Sankyo nage can be pretty insane. But this shouldn't be a surprise because shiho nage is also based on a joint lock. If you already knew all that, mea culpa. If not, thought you'd find it interesting. Just my 2p.

I know a few ways to throw with Sankyo and Ikkyo, never thought about using nikkyo though. I usually use it as a transition lock into something else. Thanks for the info!

I'm very happy that I've picked up some BJJ practice to complement my aikido study. It's an enjoyable art in its own right, and it fits nicely with aikido in that I don't exactly have lots of "aikido groundfighting" skills to get mixed up with my BJJ training. Actually, starting from knees/standing gives me a chance to practice some aikido with an intelligent, "alive" opponent.

Highly recommended.

Don Magee wrote: I know a few ways to throw with Sankyo and Ikkyo, never thought about using nikkyo though. I usually use it as a transition lock into something else. Thanks for the info!

You're welcome. I've never heard of "nikkyo nage" either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't out there. Remember that (at least the way I've been taught it) the wrist cruncher usually considered nikkyo is what you do during nikkyo ura if your partner stands up; then you crunch him down, atemi the floating ribs (to check your posotion, of course), and continue the pin. Unfortunately, the cruncher is the easiest way to tell it from ikkyo; somtimes ikkyo and nikkyo have the same grip! Ask your Aikido instructor about nikkyo omote; that's where telling it from ikkyo is really tough, esepcecially if you grp the hand the same way.

Another thing to remember is that everything you know from BJJ and Judo is somewhere in Aikido, but you may not see them as often as you will elsewhere. For instance, the figure four arm lock is a mainstay in many systems (I learned it in Kali ten years ago), but I've only seen it twice in the last three years of Aikido. Other things are done differently: elbow lock is, IMO, a straight arm bar, just like juji gatame, only you're standing up. Just more food for thought.

Let's not mistake joints only rotating certain ways for "all systems having the same technique". Yes, aikido hyperextends the elbow in certain techniques, and so does BJJ...but are you going to claim that this:
http://www.bicesteraikido.org/images.../hijishime.gif

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...ame_armbar.jpg

are somehow the same technique? Is omoplata really a nikkajo osae? (Answer: No, except at a purely anatomical level.)

Ude-garami (like shihonage, but with a figure four hold) might effect the same joint-turning as is used in an "Americana"...but the way they're deployed is very different. And that's really where the "technique" comes in, in my opinion.

Michael Gallagher wrote: Another thing to remember is that everything you know from BJJ and Judo is somewhere in Aikido,

bwahahahahahahaaaa....

This is not the case. Absolutely not.

Nikkyo nage, is when you do a nikkyo frontal pin and then simply extend. Uke falls into a backward roll.

In gassho,

Mark

Hello
I will probably go against the grain here
But I think cross training is fine as far as being exposed to different thing and different tactics and develops our own to counter/take advantages of that.
So there is indeed a need to cross train.
However I would think aikido is enough on its own.
As someone says if I want to go to ground with a BJJ free wrestler, I need to be at his level for grappling so I need to train as much as he does to be about the same level, and the same for kick and punches (I consider atemi being intrinsic part of aikido but why would I try to out box a boxer).
I think my time is better spending developing my aikido to counter/take advantage of what grappler, kicker puncher do than trying to beat them at their own game.

If you are practicing kenjustsu or medieval longsword, you will not only try to exchange the point with a late16th century rapier on the ground that it is a thrusting weapon? Especially since the longsword and the tachi are far superior cutting weapons.

phil

Philippe Willaume wrote: Hello I will probably go against the grain here But I think cross training is fine as far as being exposed to different thing and different tactics and develops our own to counter/take advantages of that. So there is indeed a need to cross train. However I would think aikido is enough on its own. As someone says if I want to go to ground with a BJJ free wrestler, I need to be at his level for grappling so I need to train as much as he does to be about the same level, and the same for kick and punches (I consider atemi being intrinsic part of aikido but why would I try to out box a boxer). I think my time is better spending developing my aikido to counter/take advantage of what grappler, kicker puncher do than trying to beat them at their own game. If you are practicing kenjustsu or medieval longsword, you will not only try to exchange the point with a late16th century rapier on the ground that it is a thrusting weapon? Especially since the longsword and the tachi are far superior cutting weapons. phil

How do you know what a boxer is like if you don't train in boxing? How do you know what ground fighting is like if you don't train some bjj/judo/wrestling/etc?

There is no replacement for personal experience.

However, I do not buy that you need to train as much as the other guy to fight him in his range. Look at the UFC, we see BJJ black belts getting beat by guys with only moderate wrestling skills. They just focused all their wrestling training on stuffing the bjj guy, getting on top, and beating his skull in. Chuck liddel is not know for his ground game. He is known for his striking game, but he has to spend time grappling to learn how to stuff those takedowns and stay where he wants to be.

Don Magee wrote: . Chuck liddel is not know for his ground game. He is known for his striking game, but he has to spend time grappling to learn how to stuff those takedowns and stay where he wants to be.

Yeah, out flat on his back thanks to "Rampage" Jackson!

Dan Botari wrote: Yeah, out flat on his back thanks to "Rampage" Jackson!

yep - a grappler who knocked him out standing.

Michael Fooks wrote: yep - a grappler who knocked him out standing.

Chuck was a great wrestler before he started Hawaiian Kempo and the UFC.

Perhaps he needs to go back to his roots.

William Hazen

However, I do not buy that you need to train as much as the other guy to fight him in his range. Look at the UFC, we see BJJ black belts getting beat by guys with only moderate wrestling skills. They just focused all their wrestling training on stuffing the bjj guy, getting on top, and beating his skull in. Chuck liddel is not know for his ground game. He is known for his striking game, but he has to spend time grappling to learn how to stuff those takedowns and stay where he wants to be.

Agreed. Many fighters like Mirko Cro Cop come in and take out BJJ guys with little BJJ experience themselves. And many wrestlers have gone on to become phenomenal strikers. Who is to say you cannot be soft, fluid and "aiki" while still being a good striker and grappler?

Ack the 15 minute edit thing won't let me post and I forgot to reply to Tim!!

Okay so you're not saying it never happened, and you're not saying it ever happened. So what exactly are you trying to say?

Ok, let me put it this way. Newbie walks into dojo and is interested in learning Aikido. Said newbie doesn't know alot about Aikido apart from a bit of reading material, but he's interested. But he's a bit curious: He has never personally performed the techniques, but after watching a class he asks the sensei: "This stuff is very intriguing! How do the principals of Aikido work on resisting opponents?"

What are you going to tell him?
"Well of course it works on resisting opponents. Why, back in the day Chiba Sensei took on 3 dudes in a parking lot in broad daylight and ended up killing one of them without even getting charged with murder. There's no actual video footage of Aikido being used in a competitive setting"

(Mind you, this story actually was recited by a fellow Aikidoka after hearing it first hand from Yamada Sensei at a dinner party. Now you can tell why I take stories with an open mind)

How do you feel that your aikido training benefits your ringtime in MMA?

Aikido taught me how the human body works and moves. I'm sure you can list more than a few benefits.

The fact that a few UFC fighters have taken out BJJ fighters isn't enough to convince me that you should go to the mat with them! That is unless you are looking for a serious beat down. If you know ahead of time or can figure out quickly where a fighters skill lies you need to avoid fighting to their strength. This is really just common sense. Unless no other option exists dont box a boxer, don't grapple with a grappler ect. . Being eclectic and proficient in different arts and styles loses its functionality if you dont use it to your advantage.

he fact that a few UFC fighters have taken out BJJ fighters isn't enough to convince me that you should go to the mat with them!

UFC fighters and BJJ fighters are one the same. That's why they compete in UFC. Takanori Gomi is lightweight champion because he's known to knock people straight out with amazing strikes. Funny thing is, he's a wrestler. You wanna roll with his broad amount of wrestling experience, or stand up against his fast hands? Just an example.

The ring has proven people wrong so many times that it has become an inspiration for me to learn MMA for it's never ending surprises. While at the same time pursuing Aikido.

Gregg Block wrote: The fact that a few UFC fighters have taken out BJJ fighters isn't enough to convince me that you should go to the mat with them! That is unless you are looking for a serious beat down. If you know ahead of time or can figure out quickly where a fighters skill lies you need to avoid fighting to their strength. This is really just common sense. Unless no other option exists dont box a boxer, don't grapple with a grappler ect. . Being eclectic and proficient in different arts and styles loses its functionality if you dont use it to your advantage.

My point is that you can't train to take a grappler out of his element if you don't understand how he works. You can't train to deal with a boxer if you don't train boxing. Without personal experience, you are just guessing. Far too often I see judo instructors say "Now when the bjj guy does this", or an TKD instructor saying "A boxer is going to come at you like this" and they are 100% wrong. I know, because I do bjj and I've boxed.