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Old 04-05-2007, 10:09 AM   #226
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mike Sigman:

LOL, looks like I misunderstood what you where saying. Anyway, intent is not to be antagonistic. Yes I agree with the broken record. It kinda dawned on me this morning as I drove into work concerning this issue.

Anyway...

I agree that I do not really understand what the conversation is about with respect to the issues YOU are discussing. There are other things though that are constantly brought that I do have issues with and will say so.

It is never about the internal stuff as it relates to internal training methodologies...just about the unproven extrapolation that many have in areas that they have little or no experience.

Anyway...you are correct in the fact that this is a broken record with nothing really that I have to add and no reason that I should start appearing like Don Quixote.

That and the threads are being discussed by a tight shot group of the exact same people...so really what is the point in discussing this anyway. Starting to meet Einstein's definition of insanity.

So, I am going to bow out of this...permanently this time...I promise!

You guys have fun and maybe we will have the opportunity to train someday and then we will have something to talk about.

In the meantime I am going to get back to other conversations here on aikiweb and training that I need to work on right now.

Thanks!

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Old 04-05-2007, 11:58 AM   #227
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
However, what I am talking about is someone who is defensive. I can hold most anyone off all day in judo by doing a few things.
Yeah, but regardless, it's a matter of the old "come to my dojo, play by my rules, and I'll win" scenario. The "developing Qi" discussion really has little to do with the "play by my rules" scenario. It's more of a discussion of basic principles that should be useful to anyone as a base, *before* the idea of rules or styles comes in. More like a training method. If someone has a training method that adds to fighting or strength, regardless of the type of fighting, then it's worthwhile. Notice how after the Gracie Revolution things have kept evolving. People are learning how to punch very hard from boxers. New holds have come in from other styles. And so on. It's all about basics, not about whose style is king. Shooting and taking down was "unbeatable" a couple of years back.... remember how that's changed? Everything in the West is simply evolving and we need to keep that in mind while we discuss these topics on basics.
Quote:
1) Never attempt to throw
Yeah, but you're attempting to keep your balance. That would be all anyone should need.
Quote:
2) prevent them from maintaining a grip.
Sure. Of course that's fairly artificial if you think about "folding" and kicks and a few other things.
Quote:
3) Never lifting my feet up when I walk.
I love to step on top of feet and move somebody off balance. Oops. Sorry, ref.
Quote:
4) Keeping an upright posture.
Great idea. However, if someone can manipulate jin directions, as I'm convinced Dan can do because he's said the right things and none of the wrong things, then being upright is going to be meaningless if you can't do it, too.

So the way to straighten out the topic so that it applies to Ki-Aikido, Taiji, Judo, etc., is to simply relate what you can do to the basic topic. How, for instance, can you respond to someone like Dan who can manipulate the jin/kokyu that is used in Aikido and other arts?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:14 PM   #228
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Dan-

Knowing it was not you, that pic was an attempt at making a contentious online exchange somewhat lighthearted. No personal offense was intended.

Otherwise, the record is broken because we are hearing the same song.

Mike and yourself are simply way off base regarding the MMA issue, it is not about "who can beat up who," and I for one have never stated "the stuff I do is better." I don't even do competitive MMA, BJJ or Judo!

I do TRAIN with guys who do all those things. And have no problem telling anyone what their names are, who they train with, or how I do against them.

Its about proof. Both you and Mike, in your ongoing discussions of this issue are very free and condescending with your attitudes toward other IMA practitioners without their presenting proof of true internal skills - descriptions of what they do, people whom they trained under, etc. As it should be!

Mike clearly held much the same attitude toward you during the Aikido Journal replay of this same topic.

Yet, when you bring up, incessantly, your opinions and the experience that you can and have used this against (insert combat sport here), you bristle when held to the same standard you hold other people discussing IMA to??

When directly asked who in MMA, Judo, or BJJ you have been tested against, you obfuscate. You freely bring up several aikidoka here who have trained with you in person, most of them openly admitting they don't do MMA.

Yet you talk about people "trying to get into the UFC," (if I had a dime for every couch potato, barely training "fighter" that I have heard say that I'd be rich!), or mention someone with a Judo rank as if that actually means anything.

Anyone in the Judo world will tell you that there are shodan and nidan, and even some brown belts, who eat godan and rokudan for breakfast. Rank is not an indicator of fighting skill in Judo. Sadly its becoming that way in BJJ as well.

So if I am acting like a troll, my friend, you are acting like the worst kind of electronic tiger.

What was the name of that guy on Aikido Journal used to tell everybody what was wrong with Aikido, how his MMA-style training would fix what was wrong with it, then got punked when he showed up at the Expo??

That is who you are sounding like.

So, in order to determine whether or not you are in fact an electronic tiger, I took comments you frequently and publicly post, on several public mesage boards for all to see;

On boards that you do not seem to frequent for whatever reason: interestingly the boards that MMA, Judo, and BJJ guys you are apparently training with would frequent.

Just to see if any of these guys actually know you....

Believe it or not, I want to see some messages "I've trained with him, he does good stuff."

If you are uncomfortable with the words from your public statements being brought to a wider audience, beyond TMA and Aiki forums and Empty Flower, perhaps you shouldn't put it out there so much.

I am, in fact, in agreement with much of what you say. I am with you and Mike on Don's Judo statement. And you are a voice of common sense on Empty Flower...

But some of us here are more interested in some kind of proof of what you say you can do, to the people you say you can do it to. One name, two. Who are you training with and doing this stuff to that is an active MMA fighter? Give us the Sherdog link like Kevin did. Or competitively ranked Judo or BJJ rank holders??

If you are conversant with the MMA world you know that is not an unusual or demanding request in any way.

Rob clearly does understand it, and has no problem telling us who, when and where he has done so. He even shows video!!

Last edited by KIT : 04-05-2007 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Added line
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:18 PM   #229
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No, no, no. I wasn't asking that. I was asking why that is so important. It's like me constantly asking what high-level Sanda fighters in China you've ever fought. That's what they focus on and if you haven't fought one of them, you're no one. Kit LeBlanc is no one....
Well, I like to think I'm someone....
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:27 PM   #230
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
What was the name of that guy on Aikido Journal used to tell everybody what was wrong with Aikido, how his MMA-style training would fix what was wrong with it, then got punked when he showed up at the Expo??

That is who you are sounding like.
Oh?? Well, one thing I can tell you, Dan ain't getting punked. You should try it...I've seen both of you.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:33 PM   #231
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Its about proof. Both you and Mike, in your ongoing discussions of this issue are very free and condescending with your attitudes...
The big difference that I see here is that Dan, Rob, me, and others supply how-to's, reports, meet with people so it's not just talk (despite your insinuations).... and all you contribute is attitude. But I've heard you have one, even on the outside. Why not see if you have something compelling to contribute to the discussion, rather than just your attitude?

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:52 PM   #232
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Yeah, but regardless, it's a matter of the old "come to my dojo, play by my rules, and I'll win" scenario. The "developing Qi" discussion really has little to do with the "play by my rules" scenario. It's more of a discussion of basic principles that should be useful to anyone as a base, *before* the idea of rules or styles comes in. More like a training method. If someone has a training method that adds to fighting or strength, regardless of the type of fighting, then it's worthwhile. Notice how after the Gracie Revolution things have kept evolving. People are learning how to punch very hard from boxers. New holds have come in from other styles. And so on. It's all about basics, not about whose style is king. Shooting and taking down was "unbeatable" a couple of years back.... remember how that's changed? Everything in the West is simply evolving and we need to keep that in mind while we discuss these topics on basics. Yeah, but you're attempting to keep your balance. That would be all anyone should need. Sure. Of course that's fairly artificial if you think about "folding" and kicks and a few other things. I love to step on top of feet and move somebody off balance. Oops. Sorry, ref. Great idea. However, if someone can manipulate jin directions, as I'm convinced Dan can do because he's said the right things and none of the wrong things, then being upright is going to be meaningless if you can't do it, too.

So the way to straighten out the topic so that it applies to Ki-Aikido, Taiji, Judo, etc., is to simply relate what you can do to the basic topic. How, for instance, can you respond to someone like Dan who can manipulate the jin/kokyu that is used in Aikido and other arts?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Two things.

1) I think you are misinterpreting me. My whole judo thing really is just a statement that not being throw in a judo match is not a good example of internal strength because it's very easy to do if you are not playing within the rules of judo. Now if you can win judo matches and not be thrown, that is impressive. My martial art training increasingly is becoming more about winning competition because I find it so much fun to compete. I don't' care about being un-movable, unthrowable, etc. I care about wining the match. My secondary emphasis is on how I can apply what I've learned to the real world. So my interest is purely "Is this training more efficient then what I am currently doing to help me win my matches?"

2) I have no one around here to test or try and see if this is worthwhile. No one around here claims the kind of skill spoke of in this thread, and this thread also claims aikido ki is not like these skills. Therefor my aikido instructor does not fit the bill. Even if he did I know he would not spar with me. He is not interested in that. The people I do know who claim to have developed some skill, or that can demonstrate basic ki tests are unable to maintain that skill while sparing. However they are not black belts in their arts, but they do have years more training then I and typically are a lot larger then I. If I were to use them as proof of concept, I would have to say it is not a good use of my time. Of course the rebuttals is they do not have the proper training methods posters claim in these threads.

So what can I do on my own to see the usefulness of these skills in helping me complete my goals. My martial art goals are as follows.

1) Prevent weight gain. I need to burn calories so I do not become diabetic. Currently I run and do body weight and some weight exercises, usually related to actual movements I use in bjj and judo (such as uchi-komi with resistance bands, shoots with resistance bands, solo Uchi-komi with hand weights, pushups, lunges, crunches, dive bombs, pull ups, hanging from a gi jacket, heavy bag work with weighted gloves, etc)
2) Win more competitions. I love competition and I want to improve the level I can compete at. This means I need to gain more skill in actually controlling another human being. This includes judo, bjj, and mma. Currently I train on Mondays, wedsdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. Usually from 6pm to 8 or 9pm, sometimes longer. Typically I train bjj for 2 hours and judo for 1 hour, sometimes it's just bjj, sometimes we work striking (rare now that I'm focusing on improving my grappling and plan to get back into striking this winter). Usually training is warmups with running, jumping, rolls, breakfalls, pushups, dive bombs, crunches, positional sparing, open sparing, and of course lots of drills with varying levels of resistance. Most of my time is spent positional sparing or open sparing. I have been adding a lot more drills lately to try to clean up my technique.
3) Self defense. This is the thing I care least about. Usually my training for this keeping an eye out for unsafe things in sparing and trying to avoid them as much as possible. So I stay away from turtling up, I watch my head position in the guard, mount, back, etc, and I talk to my instructor about how to do things with no gi and make sure I do no gi sparing at least once a week. This includes throws and well as grappling.

Unrelated to all these goals, I occasionally go to aikido class to hang out with my friends and try to think outside the box for a bit.

So how would we change this training to allow the development of internal skills without weakening my goals? Is it possible? Can I do it without a skilled trainer?

My current thoughts are that the application of internal skills is cool, but its not something I should spend any time on.

Last edited by DonMagee : 04-05-2007 at 01:58 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:21 PM   #233
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
1) I think you are misinterpreting me. My whole judo thing really is just a statement that not being throw in a judo match is not a good example of internal strength because it's very easy to do if you are not playing within the rules of judo.
Exactly. But I think Dan already noted somewhere that these skills are already mentioned in Judo. However, and I'm not disparaging, I've been in judo and I know that if someone just told me these things and I didn't see them, I wouldn't quite get the point either. So I'm not going to waste yours or my time re-hashing what's already been said.
Quote:
So how would we change this training to allow the development of internal skills without weakening my goals? Is it possible? Can I do it without a skilled trainer?
[[snipsky]]
My current thoughts are that the application of internal skills is cool, but its not something I should spend any time on.
I agree. You shouldn't. This stuff is just getting started (among westerners). Luckily for me I already had my "fightin'" worries out of the way when I felt someone using this odd kind of irresistable strength and I started trying to find out how he did it. I "wasted" many years finding out what I little I do know and it's interesting and helpful stuff. But if I'd had goals like yours it would have been a waste of time. On the other hand, if someone could have taught me these things while I was still interested in martial arts for reasons like yours, it would have made me a killer SOB.... for whatever that's worth other than a testosterone rush and the other usual motivations.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:47 PM   #234
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The big difference that I see here is that Dan, Rob, me, and others supply how-to's, reports, meet with people so it's not just talk (despite your insinuations).... and all you contribute is attitude. But I've heard you have one, even on the outside. Why not see if you have something compelling to contribute to the discussion, rather than just your attitude?

Mike Sigman
Well, it's probably something like yours.

Remember, we've read your old exchanges with Dan on Aikido Journal. And how many aikidoka and internal exponents have you questioned on line and in person because they said they could do things?

In that light, you will no doubt agree that the problem with the martial arts is the need for MORE attitude, if its asking people to perform under the conditions, and against the people they claim they can. Or at least tell us whom they have done it to. Not LESS.

You must realize that your own online delivery is often considerably grating to some people. It has never seemed to keep you from asking the questions that are important to you.

But since you never talk about MMA, or what you do to Judoka, MMA fighters, BJJ-ers, whatever, and our interests in martial arts seem quite different, so there is no need to ask you similar questions, and I have little interest in meeting with you or feeling what you can do.

I know you can do something, and I know you can teach it, as I've told you I used to train with Amy, she's a tiny woman and had a lot of power. Good for you, and good for her!

I have met Rob, and given a report. Rob also has been open about MMA, BJJ etc. which is why I was interested in meeting him. We had a good time.

I tried to meet with Dan. He never called me back.

So, its not just talk, it is legitimate seeking of answers to common, and very simple questions.

I have come to the conclusion, far too late, that I will not be given those answers, so I am retiring. This thread (drift!) has been very instructive on a number of levels. I can only hope that others found something of interest in it.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:06 PM   #235
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
In that light, you will no doubt agree that the problem with the martial arts is the need for MORE attitude, if its asking people to perform under the conditions, and against the people they claim they can. Or at least tell us whom they have done it to. Not LESS.
I don't disagree that more questions should be asked, but the subject is how a core-principle strength is used... you diverted it to a "yeah but can you kick butt" topic. Granted, Dan makes sometimes too much noise about how he can kick-butt with it and he has to be dragged back on topic sometimes, but the comparison fails when your "who have you fought" stuff diverts the basic topic. Try asking questions about the topic.
Quote:
You must realize that your own online delivery is often considerably grating to some people. It has never seemed to keep you from asking the questions that are important to you.
Yeah... it's weird. I've never really figured it out. Some people hate what I post. Some people like what I post. Some people tell me that the self-absorbed get highly offended by me. I just don't know. I'll slog along somehow... and I'll do it without being the first one to start talking about other peoples' personal attributes.
Quote:
I have met Rob, and given a report. Rob also has been open about MMA, BJJ etc. which is why I was interested in meeting him. We had a good time.
I'm sure. But your report sounded so patronizing and gratuitous that it grated on me, if you'll pardon the term.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:26 PM   #236
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Well, I didn't help the thread drift, any.....

As far as my report on meeting Rob, I hope he didn't see it that way!

I actually had a good time and enjoyed meeting him and his open teaching attitude, and willingness to roll. I seriously did not intend it to be patronizing or gratuitous at all.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:06 PM   #237
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I still wonder what not being able to be pushed over in a static position and/or with play nice rules actually means. Is it a basis for martial arts, or just a body trick with no real value once the parameters chance (and are guaranteed to change in real life).

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:07 PM   #238
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I
, but the subject is how a core-principle strength is used... you diverted it to a "yeah but can you kick butt" topic.
As my last post indicated, what does a "core-principle strength" actually mean if it refused to be tested or not even able to be tested in a live environment?

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:19 PM   #239
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Lessee.... here's Cheng Man Ching, whose cult Justin is a worshipful member of (he has webpages, more than one, dedicated to Cheng) doing exactly the thing Justin is whining about:

http://www.neijia.com/CMCPush.jpg

Of course, Cheng was beat badly in some fights, so Justin may have a valid discussion point.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:58 PM   #240
Haowen Chan
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Alright, since I started this thread, and am tired ot separating the info from the noise, I'd like to make a request:

Let's take as an basic assumption that ki (qi, jin, kokyu, etc) exists and it is useful to some people.

The axiom may be false in reality. And the people who want it may be completely deluded.

I don't care.

I want to know more about this ancient concept and about the systems used to train it.

Thank you!
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:02 PM   #241
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Hi Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
2. Apparently you take issue with me bringing up MMA in regards to internal training as a conditioning or training tool that has value in that venue as any other venue. That's your call, fine by me. I judge their value from what it adds to my game. You want the merit of them judged as a value on a level with someone you know or is known by you. I've already heard this before, already heard this from right here- much the same as with Sorrentino's "oh so friendly" behaviour and doubts.
Glad to see that you're reading carefully enough to spell my name correctly... now if only you could read my intent.

I am curious to know why you have never checked out either Saotome- or Ikeda-sensei, given that they both visit the Boston area once a year. One of your students told me that it was not necessary to see Saotome-sensei, having seen one of Saotome-sensei's senior people. That approach has its problems, and I'm sure that you're smarter than that.

Sincerely (really),

Jim
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:21 PM   #242
statisticool
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

My domain mentioned is http://www.zhengmanqing.com/

One page is about Zheng himself, and that is a biography page understandably. I'm not sure why this would be surprising to some.

It is a rather odd definition of "cult", of course, but some definitions presented for internal strength (like supposedly the qi talked about in martial treatises is really a vector, etc.) are odd too, so that's par for the course.

Zheng could have been beaten in some fights, of course, no one has claimed otherwise. Zheng did not claim he was unpushable or unbeatable.

However, when asked for actual evidence of newspaper clippings said to prove that Zheng was beaten, in a hospital, etc., the claimaints never actually produce it.

Getting back on track, Zheng isn't making these claims, a tiny group of modern day practitioners are. They are here; Zheng and other acknowledged masters of the past are not. So when will we see any test of their theories in a live environment?

From people claiming to be unpushable and have methods that we all apparently need to use to improve our training that is apparently lacking, things masters from the past did not say, I'd expect much better.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-07-2007, 07:58 AM   #243
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
My domain mentioned is http://www.zhengmanqing.com/

One page is about Zheng himself, and that is a biography page understandably. I'm not sure why this would be surprising to some.

It is a rather odd definition of "cult", ...
Er, "cult" implies people with weird, fanatical behavior. Do you really think that anyone looking at what you post and who you chase around the forum and your attitude.... do you really think that no one thinks you're a perfect representative of cult behavior and fanaticism? Really? Take a moment and look back at how long you've been doing this weird caricature of a monkey jumping from branch to branch and throwing fruit and feces at the humans.

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:32 AM   #244
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er, "cult" implies people with weird, fanatical behavior.
I'd think cult would imply a smaller group dogmatically holding onto a non-mainstream position, not a larger group non-dogmatically holding onto the mainstream position.

Quote:
Do you really think that anyone looking at what you post and who you chase around the forum and your attitude.... do you really think that no one thinks you're a perfect representative of cult behavior and fanaticism?
I'm (not really) sorry you feel skepticism and criticism is fanatisicm. You are, of course, invited to report such behavior to the mods, to the poilice, the FBI, whomever you wish to try and rid yourself of such awful abuse when people ask you to back up your many claims that don't jive much with taijiquan classics, science, or common sense.

Quote:
Take a moment and look back at how long you've been doing this weird caricature of a monkey jumping from branch to branch and throwing fruit and feces at the humans.
Actually, you should take a moment. You have an easily searchable internet history of you doing much worse on many more internet forums.

Is it inherently dishonest to ask me questions, then accuse me of stalking when I respond to those questions? Oh yes, very dishonest.

The picture couldn't get any clearer.

But let's get back on track. When will we see any test of the people who claim they are unpushable in a live environment, like a competition like UFC or similar? I'd like to improve my training that I've been informed is apparently lacking, but so far, there is little real evidence to suggest that such methods would improve it.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:56 AM   #245
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Is it inherently dishonest to ask me questions, then accuse me of stalking when I respond to those questions?
Ah, but Justin... you've seen quite a number of people indicate quite bluntly that this sort of dissembling and fantasy that you're another normal poster simply fails. Yet you give this innocence defense of "normality" each time, without recognizing and responding to normal social stimuli.

Since you clearly are not controlling yourself and somehow think that your dissimulation and pretense of innocence is convincing anyone... then your instability is a given. And BTW... a number of people that I know of on the forum are familiar with the strange characters the inhabit the Cheng Man Ching world; your behavior is even odder than most.

The part that I am interested in watching is that your "look at me" attention-seeking gambits on your webpages (yes, I know you've removed some of the more blatant ones that I've pointed out in the past) indicates that you're seeking some form of approbation in society, yet you make emotionally-erratic postings that do exactly the opposite for you. You desperately want replies to bizarre negative questioning so my feeling is that if I post just the right things at the right intervals we can keep the monkey-on-the-stick performing. Fun to watch. We all know people like you on the fringes of the martial arts (Cheng Man Ching followers, Aiki-fruities, various "Taoist" charades, etc.) and frankly, I consider you just part of the scene. Rock on, dude.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-07-2007, 09:57 AM   #246
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
they would be thoroughly owned by a decent high school wrestler
This reminded me of something I will never forget. In high school, wrestling at 185 lbs. Went to a wrestling tournament. I heard the guy I was to wrestle was good but didn't know how good. I was owned in less than 30 seconds. Couldn't even remember how I ended up on my back, but there I was, unable to move or respond. Don't know if his skills were internal or external or a combination of the two. Just remember being completely dominated on the mat. At least he was kind enough not to prolong the agony.
Now back to the regularly scheduled progamming.
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Old 04-08-2007, 08:22 AM   #247
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Only providing evidence for claims matters to me.

Will Mike, Dan, or any other internal guru/teacher who constantly tell us training is lacking, things are missing from taijiquan/aikido, that there are more efficient ways of moving, etc., or their students, compete?

Unpushable. If UFC-ish events are too much to ask to demonstrate in a live environment (which is the only thing that really matters, unless your interested in body tricks like the Magnetic Girl), how about just a judo, sumo, or taijiquan sensing hands tournament.

What better way to inform the world of their amazing secrets?


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:37 AM   #248
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Justin,
Public competition isn't the be-all end-all proof of anything. Why don't you just train with one of these people on a friendly basis and see what they have yourself? You'll likely be able to draw a good conclusion of how they would hold up in such competitions, if you do.
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Old 04-08-2007, 12:29 PM   #249
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Justin,

Actually Dan has said that he would meet me in a non-compliant training environment.

Mike has never said made any great claims concerning Martial Effectiveness in a UFCish environment, only said he felt that these skills could be additive, and essentially has said that he believes that if non-compliance and effective/efficient fighting was the issue, then it may not be an efficient use of your time.

Rob has shown us videos of his folks "Rolling" in a non-compliant way, and has only showed an interest exploring these things more..in the right spirit.

So, really until I meet one or all of them, it is really hard to say any more about this.

I do agree that in the past the conversations have been kinda crazy and have walked the line with some people elluding to the effectivness of these skills. Mainly Dan, however, he did say that he would be willing to meet me and explore this avenue...so now that I have that committment....the burden is on me to meet him half way.

I'd say the same thing would extend to you as well...go roll with Dan, do it in a non-compliant way, take a buddy with you to say "yeah, I was their and Justin moved him all over the place and owned him at will." Take a video camera with you as well and film it so we have the proof.

Think about it, you'd be famous on the internet! More famous than yellow bamboo! You'd be king of Bullshido for a month at least!

You know, I have my doubts and concerns as well, I think based on where these guys are coming from that I'd at least learn a few things from them. I'd also hypothesize that I would probably disagree with them on a few things, and walk away saying "yeah, what they do is good, but in many respects it is no different than X or Y". I may even walk away saying...these guys are completely in lalala land...but I doubt it. It will be more like, yeah..good stuff in these areas...not so good in these. That is par for the course really when working with anyone!

One thing is for sure, if you don't go and train with these guys...you will never now for sure...and will continue to sound like a broken record.

Actually in many respects these guys are really NOT internet warriors as they have gone out in the martial arts communities met, and trained with people. Where do you stand in this area?

Actually I have noticed that you are taking a fair amount of heat in the troll area. It might be helpful if you did tell us a little bit more about your background, where you are currently studying, and what you are currently working on martially. I'd hate to put you in that category, but you do ask alot of questions of people, but have not provided any of your own experiences, mistakes, and thoughts other than to ask people to prove themselves to you.

I am assuming you are still living in the Metro DC area, (NOVA), Mike was at Aikido of Northern VA a few weeks back..did you go?, Lloyd Irving, one of the best MMA guys in the country is right in the area, do you/or have you...trained there?

You have been to ANV as we have discussed in the past, but said that it was not the aikido school for you, which I find interesting as Jimmy's aikido is very, very good and he has a very, very good tactical orientation...although that is not his focus in training aikido.

What is it that you really want from everyone here? What is it that you are seeking and trying to learn? How can we help you? How we help you from being called a troll? I think it would be most helpful if you share a little of yourself with us, if you expect to get much out of this other than being put on everyone's ignore list (which I have never, ever done).

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Old 04-08-2007, 12:35 PM   #250
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Public competition isn't the be-all end-all proof of anything.
In a way it is a demonstration of their claims of martial efficacy, because it is in a live limited parameter environment for all to see and it is objective not a 'I saw this guy; he has Internal Strength(tm) because he felt weird/I didn't understand his movement' anecdote.

One has to ask themselves why no one has stepped up in such venues yet using things we cannot just classify as regular ol' external, and how much longer we in the internal community can tolerate it until we have to admit either internal strength as they envision it doesn't exist, or cannot be distinguished from regular ol external strength.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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