Bicep Torn While Training!

Kevin, stick to the day job pal, I'm sure you're a lot better at that....

(By the way, you've given a legal opinion on this thread-but you're not a lawyer. A medical opinion-but you're not a medic. And an opinion on aikido techniques-but you consider yourself to be outside the ranking system and don't grade. Where does it all end?)

Brent, I think you're right. Further discussion would be counter-productive and probably inadvisable if you are about to embark on legal action. If you want to pm me for my qualifications then please go ahead because I think the following is going to be important to your case. It's physically impossible for the injury that you describe to have been caused by any amount of pressure on the back of your elbow. Your bicep had to be contracting and this means that, rightly or wrongly, the nage is going to say that it happened because you were resisting the technique. Just for the record, I also think that there was most probably some form of inherent weakness in the tendon.

One other thing, on past experience (admittedly in the UK and all military related) most of these things get settled out of court regardless of the rights and wrongs. I saw one guy get GBP 250,000 for breaking his ankle on a parachute course (!!!) and another GBP 750,000 for an accident that was entirely his own fault and which resulted in a disability that was in all probability not related to the event anyway. On that basis alone, I'd say go ahead and sue and you'll probably do quite well out of it.

Best wishes for the surgery and recovery period anyway and I hope that you can resolve things and regain some form of mutual respect with the 'perpretator'. In some ways, it's a pity that we don't have some form of officially sanctioned independant investigation after incidents like this (along the lines of what happens after an aircraft crashes) to at least establish what actually happened, who is to blame (if anybody) and look at lessons for the future.

Mike Grant wrote: It's physically impossible for the injury that you describe to have been caused by any amount of pressure on the back of your elbow. Your bicep had to be contracting and this means that, rightly or wrongly, the nage is going to say that it happened because you were resisting the technique. Just for the record, I also think that there was most probably some form of inherent weakness in the tendon.".

I disagree. If he has very flexible elbows, i.e., they extend beyond straight or hyperextend and he was being drawn around with his arm in this position it would force tenson on the biceps without him reacting. Enough tension and it could tear. Or for that matter, inherently tight muscles or joints if hyperextended which being taken down or in a ura fashion could put enough pressure on the biceps. I have felt considerable stretching of the biceps during certain techniques with over zealous nages (I have tight joints) enough so I was concerned my biceps was going to tear. Everyone is so different with flexibility, etc. I don't think we can assume it is impossible.

Shawn Maya wrote: What would Steven Seagal say.........

He'd probably say quit whining and get off the ground or he would come down there and "beat you himself." Sorry, I was thinking about Path Beyond Thought".

Mike Grant wrote: Kevin, Here's what the poster himself says about the mechanism of injury: Quote: 'We are taught from day one to go underneath the arm and never, NEVER to the elbow or tricep area. My entry, a cross handed grab, was slow and controlled. He then entered with all of his center, weight, and muscle directly into the back of my elbow. It made a sound like celery stalks breaking, then he looked at me, and *then* he threw me into a front role.' Unquote. Sumi otoshi or not, it was apparently caused by pressure applied to the back of the elbow and the hyperextension of the elbow joint involved could not have caused avulsion of the biceps tendon as described of itself. There's nothing here about the biceps being physically 'grabbed' and torn off the bone as you suggest and I'm sure that the poster would have remembered if that had happened. You'd be surprised by how strongly a muscle can contract when it goes into spasm. Ever had cramp?

It's rather difficult to do sumiotoshi from a cross hand grab. It almost sounds like an ude hiji nage. If that is the technique, it does put stress on the biceps. I have been thrown aggressively in this throw and definitely felt discomfort in the bicep. If the body does not react fast enough it could cause considerable strain to the biceps.

Robert Weatherall wrote: Brent at the moment you are majorly depressed and justifibly so. You have a huge injury which is not your fault and the medical advice you are receiving suggests your arm will never be the same. As someone who was once critically injured on the tatami let me give you this advice. Listen and do everything your surgeon and physio say regarding recovery. But do not listen to them regarding the limitations of what your body will now be able to do. I severely damaged my l left knee and almost lost the leg. My phsyio told me I would never walk the same way again. Determined to prove her wrong it took me 18 months to learn how to walk without a limp. From there I had to learn how to run and gain full movement so I could sit in Seiza again. Eventually though I got back on the mat and I now enjoy and appreciate aikido more than I did before. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Your recovery will be a marathon - not a sprint. Just don't lose sight of the finish line. All the best.

I can't imagine what you are going through at the moment but trust this guy's statement. I have been training with him since just after he came back on to the mat and he is one of the best I have trained with, you would never know anything was ever wrong with him (his knickname is Mr. Angry!). As another side note my wife recently had a grade 3 seperation of her A.C. joint (the ligaments in her shoulder snapped completely and her joint was seperated by aproxx 1 inch). She was told by doctors that she would not be training again and would have have chronic pain for the rest of her life but she has made sufficient recovery to start training again and it is getting better all the time (altough I still worry overly much about it and take it far too easy on her). Take it easy and go slow at first but it will heal, the body can do the most amazing things!

good luck for the future

John,

I'm not sure how the biceps thing that you describe would work. Given that the elbow is straight and the force is coming from behind the joint, it's impossible to stretch the biceps to any significant extent by hyperextending the joint and it's not clear what other movement would be involved that would stress the biceps to that extent. back to my original thesis I guess, some sort of spasmodic contraction plus an inherent weakness in the tendon.

Things might be a little clearer if we all knew techniques by the same name, but the other point still stands. Excessive force behind the elbow joint is most likely to fracture the olecranon process. I guess you could postulate some sort of supra trochlear fracture of the humerous with the distal fragment rotating forward and severing the biceps insertion, but you'd also cut the brachial artery with severe bleeding in that event and it's quite clearly not what happened here.

An unusual injury. Have you encountered it in your practice before?

I am a beginner who trains with Brent. He was actually my first teacher when I walked into a beginner's class for the first time just over a year ago. I know he speaks the truth when he says he will come out of this stronger, wiser, and more compassionate.

We all love and admire what he brings to the mat, and what he WILL bring to the mat in the future. When he says he thought first of how he would represent Aikido before his own pain, I believe it 100%. His constant desire to try to inspire confidence and appreciation of Aikido in beginners has not gone unnoticed by me or the other beginners I know.

But, I wish he didn't feel like he had to hide his pain (and thus the real dangers of Aikido) from observers or beginners, especially at what must have been a very frightening moment. Anything worth doing in this life comes with risk. And yes, there is a lot of trust we extend to others on the mat not to abuse us or the vulnerable position we are putting ourselves in. But such is life. Every time I put my precious children in my car and drive down the road, I am similarly trusting other drivers not to plow into and kill us - drivers that unlike Aikidokas, are possibly taught nothing of peace or compassion. If anything, Aikido increases our overall emotional and physical safety in the world as we grow more aware of our mundane, everyday perils. That's way more worth a risk of injury than some more common risks people take while skiing or biking. No reason that the risks can't honestly represented. Lord knows I can get flinchy on the mat at times, but I am looking forward to (hopefully) advancing to a point where I can engage in faster, more continuous practice even if that means higher risk. It's too much fun not to. I really can't imagine observing an injury severe enough in an Aikido context that would frighten me away from the art forever.

You know we all love you Brent. Take care of yourself.