Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Yaaaaannnk thread back on (original) topic - not that I'm not enjoying this one

Mike Sigman wrote: I was thinking that perhaps a push-hands type practice <snip> would be an augmenting asset to go with ki and kokyu training.

Yeah, I agree. And it would be interesting to see how it would get integrated into an aikido "shape".

From my background (Shodokan), it is not that common to be in a "give and take" environment like you have in push hands. The randori done is generally completely different, although it has levels of practise which would be suitable, I think.

One nice thing about the push hands I've done is that its opened up my eyes to maintaining my structure against forces coming in from another angle than pretty much straight ahead (not saying this aspect isn't in the aikido I've done, just that the exposure to some push hand helped show it). And conversely, its been interesting playing with getting a good structure to be able to direct force out from a different direction than straight ahead. Plus, it gives you a bit more of a "slow" or controlled atmospherer so you can pay more attention to how you want yourself to move.

So, yes - I think something like a push hands could be cool.

As to the how... My opinion is you'd need a pretty structured progression of actions to go from basic concepts to more "free play" (hey, just like push hands progression )

Perhaps it would be nice to start with the old ikkyo-to-ikkyo routine, where neither person moves their feet much. Ikkyo is a nice "simple" shape to get a good structure going, I reckon, hence would lend itself pretty well as a basic vehicle.

Maybe after that you might look at some one-step moves. Sugawara had some kata developed that are kind of along the lines I'm thinking of (I've got the clips here but don't know how to up load them), and I've also seen some other kata out of the Kobayashi (Yasuo) dojo's system which are basically give-and-take type stuff that might set up the right sort of environment nicely.

And then moving on to a free-play kind of environment, but not the running around the mat style, just one or two step type stuff.

As for the kokyu part of it, I guess like anything the reason for doing something would have to be stressed - if the point was dveloping kokyu, then the teacher would have to stress that. For this reason I think staying with a no-step or one-step routine would be useful for beginers, so they can better maintain a frame and have less to distract themselves to begin with.

Dave Findlay wrote: Yaaaaannnk thread back on (original) topic - not that I'm not enjoying this one Yeah, I agree. And it would be interesting to see how it would get integrated into an aikido "shape".

Dave, when I first started training in yoseikan aikido in 1974, we did a simple push-hands type of exercise like this:

partners face one another with the right foot forward, almost side-by-side, on the outside of each other's stance. Each extends his right arm and the backs of the hands touch. One partner pushes toward the other's right shoulder. The non-pushing partner rotates his hips with the push so that his right shoulder retreats while he remains upright and stable on his feet. This movement allows his right hand to lead the pushing hand just outside his right shoulder so that he cannot land any pressure. The one receiving the push continues in an oval motion so that he begins to push back toward the other person's shoulder, turning his hip into the push and "unwinding" the coil of the hip. The person who was pushing is now being pushed. He yields with the hip and shoulder and guides the pushing hand past his shoulder. He then begins to push again.

This is a simple, smooth and easy movement. Beginners always use far too much strength, which can be neutralized with no strength at all. And when you push back toward them, it is easy to move the pushing hand toward the center of their body and push them in the middle of the chest, which will almost always push them off balance. Or they can be made to fall forward with their push.

You do this on left and right, of course.

It was interesting to see, many years later, than Ben Lo uses this exercise in his tape on pushing hands. He also shows variations to lead into more advanced practice.

Best to you.

David

Eric Saemann wrote: I second your first few posts (haven't read all of them yet) on Tai Chi push hands. The head Aikido instructor, with whom I attend 1 class a week, has a leaning toward more of that type philosophy (how to develop soft/internal/etc.) - can't explain very well, you'd have to see for yourself. He was a student of Peter Ralston for a time, if you've ever heard of him. I do enjoy the other classes, but they are more physics or strength oriented. Just what comes out in those classes. I'm fortunate to have a Tai Chi school that does push hands class (cooperatively) once a week. Seems the only way for me to grow in this skill is to practice as much as I can on my own. Even practicing the form 15 minutes per day should show improvement over years. Everyone learns differently, though.

Hi Eric:

Good post. However, let me make it very clear that most of the "push hands" available in the West has no real jin and qi in it. It's more along the "contest" and "safe way to have a mild engagement so we can kid ourselves that we're doing martial arts". Or in the last number of years, you see more and more big, strong guys who specialize in close-form engagements that are simply limited-wrestling and they call it push-hands. One of the truly interesting things about all these western versions of push-hands is the *number* of Chinese martial artists who have commented "that's not push hands" and the westerners just keep going because they know better.

What I'm saying is that I have something very specific in mind and I'd prefer to keep it very clear that (and most people I know would agree) most push-hands you see around you is not what I'm talking about. Just to be clear.

I have never met Peter Ralston, although I know one of his long-time students somewhat. So all I can say is that "I don't know enough about what he does to make an intelligent comment". Fair enough?

All the Best.

Mike

David Orange wrote: Doing it your way results in "trashing people". Doing it the other way makes for a natural mind and a healthy life, which is a life-long process.

I dunno, David... would you consider yourself a benefactor of this "natural mind" that has been developed with your personal knowledge of ki?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: I dunno, David... would you consider yourself a benefactor of this "natural mind" that has been developed with your personal knowledge of ki?

I can see it, but I am in an unnatural society, so it is difficult to lay full claim to it. Still, I'm working toward it and I don't suffer a compulsion to blow up what little training I had into something it really wasn't. I go to work in epidemiology, come home and work in my yard and garden, play with my child, help my wife with the chores and do a little tai chi and kenjutsu. It's a satisfying life. I'll take that and not suffer any longing for the deluded mechanistic route you are taking.

David

Mike Sigman wrote: Good post. However, let me make it very clear that most of the "push hands" available in the West has no real jin and qi in it. It's more along the "contest" and "safe way to have a mild engagement so we can kid ourselves that we're doing martial arts".

Hmmmm... I've always found that when I've practiced 'competitive' push hands (or shiai randori, for that matter) I tend to get a bit strengthy and try to wrestle and shove, but I come out thinking that I should have been softer, more sensitive, more relaxed and less strengthy, and then take steps to improve this - normally by thinking about these things in non-competitve or fixed form practice (kakari geikio, hikitate geiko, 'circling' push hands) and then trying to bring in more of that feeling next time. I'd hope that in this way I was improving my tai chi and am improving my aikido.

Would you consider these benefits to be part of the qi / chi / jin/ kokyu development / improvement / whatever or tangential to it? And if they're tangential, do they make push hands a worthwhile practice in themselves?

David Sim wrote: Would you consider these benefits to be part of the qi / chi / jin/ kokyu development / improvement / whatever or tangential to it? And if they're tangential, do they make push hands a worthwhile practice in themselves?

Hi David:

The point I was getting at was that Aikidoists need not only kokyu/jin/qi *development*, they also need some form of focused practice in manipulating the kokyu force. A push-hands type format would be nice, was my suggestion. However, the direction I was thinking of was toward the more focused ability to manipulate kokyu/jin force, eventually, with just the mind, but resulting in a strong force. I.e., leading toward some skills in "aiki", not just "jin/kokyu development". It was just a suggestion, a thought.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: The point I was getting at was that Aikidoists need...

Mike, the best things you can do for the aikido world are first, LEARN some aikido and second, learn the language and stop trying to translate it into Chinese that does not correspond.

David

David Orange, you do not speak for this list, and especially not for me, I know you don't speak for Aikido in general, so if you have an issue with Mike use the tools available to you such as "ignore". I for one enjoy the robust discussions that revolve around Mike's threads, so learn something and quit throwing insults or bring a valid discussion forward and defend your points, I read over and over here your accusations pointed at Mike but what I read from you is a general degradation of the very civility you so profess to see in others.

E

Mike Sigman wrote: Hi David: The point I was getting at was that Aikidoists need not only kokyu/jin/qi *development*, they also need some form of focused practice in manipulating the kokyu force. A push-hands type format would be nice, was my suggestion. However, the direction I was thinking of was toward the more focused ability to manipulate kokyu/jin force, eventually, with just the mind, but resulting in a strong force. I.e., leading toward some skills in "aiki", not just "jin/kokyu development". It was just a suggestion, a thought.

Yes, I think I see that. I was just interested in your views on the other benefits of push hands training (and whether they are actually benefits and whether they actually are 'other' benefits).

David Orange wrote: You've got it exactly backward, Rob. You have confused "body skills" with ki/qi and its development. You think that the mechanistic exercises are the beginning, but they are only good once you have made a firm connection to the root of natural ki. Doing it your way results in "trashing people". Doing it the other way makes for a natural mind and a healthy life, which is a life-long process.

I'm sorry David...I mean I tried really hard to be polite, especially after the scene you made on e-budo but...
wtf are you trying to say?
"Trashing People"

Btw, you keep on making innuendos about stuff I never said. Seems to be a habit for you.

If you have more to offer why don't you share your great knowledge with us under the training thread I posted?

Mike,
I agree with your comment about "western" forms of push hands.
Since I haven't been to China or Taiwan myself, I can't be certain if our school is "good". I do have faith, because I've heard stories about push hands that seem more strength oriented than what we practice. Our school heavily emphasizes no muscle, feeling partner's "energy", rooting, waist flexibility, no dead hands.
The head instructor goes to Taiwan every year for a couple weeks to train with the founder of our style/school. One of the students came back very impressed and wishing that we could work on it like they do over there. The problem is our school doesn't have soft walls like they were being "thrown" against. We'd go through a window or drywall. The other difference is that it sounds like the senior students over there practice hours many days a week.
I also like Yang Jwing-Ming and have many of his books. The fact that we share the same birthday doesn't hurt either. Some of the stuff I have a hard time following or swallowing, like the parts about magnets.

I have to concur with Eric. Hearing David Orange's objections once might have been educational and informative as to what other opinions are out there, but these constant attacks on everything that Mike Sigman says are annoying and unproductive. I may have far less experience in the martial arts than you, Mr. Orange, but I enjoy Mr. Sigman's posts and find useful ideas in them that do connect with my practice of both taichi and aikido. I would much rather read intelligent discussions about his ideas than this empty bickering. It's clear you're not going to agree on this topic, so please just let it go already.

As to the fact that some well-known teachers and authorities have been known to talk in terms of qi permeating the universe, connecting us with each other, etc - well, sure, I trust that they believe that and I respect many of them deeply for incredible martial prowess, but that doesn't stop me from thinking that their opinions are New Age-ish nonsense. Having some training as a physicist, I expect physically measurable evidence for such claims. If you can't measure it, you can't apply it martially - because any interaction we have as people is ultimately physical. If you can't demonstrate a measurable physical effect from your 'leet qi abilities' that can't be explained by present science, you're fooling yourself.

That doesn't mean that I think 'qi skills' don't exist; it's just that I think a whole lot of people are mistaking incredible internal conditioning - and the human mind & body are capable of some incredible things - for mystic ability. It's a bit like the ancients hearing thunder and deciding it must be Thor striking his hammer, because they don't have the analytic and scientific training to figure out what's really going on.(This kind of thinking is very common even today, alas; for a source that deals with it far better than I can here, pick up a copy of Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World").

You don't need to understand how something works to use it. I don't have an analytic understanding of why it pleasures me more to play the piano in one manner rather than another, but I can still intuitively play it the 'right' way. That doesn't mean I'm infused by some invisible energy field that gives me special piano playing abilities. It's just that my body and mind are conditioned from many years of practice and exposure to do the things that work and not do the things that don't. In the same way many martial artists may be able to _do_ qi skills, but they don't necessarily have the training or education to analyze the underlying physical structures.

More numerous in my experience, alas, are the individuals who _think_ they can do qi skills, having practiced in one New Age-ish framework or another - perhaps reciting a poem or two at the start of every class and spending more time meditating and _talking_ about martial arts than actually practicing - but who when it comes down to it clearly have no clue. (Just to be clear, neither do I - but I'm aware of this and have been working on it from the biomechanical perspective ever since I had the opportunity to see some individuals with great fajin who made no claims about mystic powers and universal energy fields).

----------

As far as the original topic goes - I saw Master Yang Jun do some push hands not long ago, and I was surprised how much like aikido it looked to me. I definitely thought to myself that I could use some of that kind of training in my aikido - not only for fajin, qi, etc, but also for the "sticky contact" and sensitivity that it teaches. On a tangentially related note, it also occurred to me that constructing something like a "long form" of aikido for myself might also be useful, because of how such solo practice allows one to examine the biomechanics of technique without the distraction of needing to throw someone.

Robert John wrote: I'm sorry David...I mean I tried really hard to be polite, especially after the scene you made on e-budo but...

Who got banned on E-budo... Sigman or Orange?


Justin

Justin Smith wrote: Who got banned on E-budo... Sigman or Orange? Justin

Justin, as personal as David Orange got with Mike, he at least had the insight to put forward his view points, you on the other hand seem to lurk around Mike Sigman's posts, throw out total garbage and think for some reason you might be adding something to the discussion. Do you have the ability to discuss the issue on the thread or not?

E

No, he does not.

Just guessing....

B,
R

Mike Sigman wrote: Could someone point me to the thread where I mentioned the just-below-the-skin true personality of much of the New Age generation? Thanks. Mike

is this directed to little me?
Oh Boy have you got me pegged. New Age, uh huh, Thats why every art I oractice has a clearly traceable lineage. Like being a second generation from Chen man-Ching.
Of course I do practice the aikido of Robert Nadeau, Shihan and everybody knows what a New Age nutcake He is.
New Age. me, right.
At least I practice aikido.

Hi Toms,

good post and some good points, many of which agree with, and although I may have few points of contention, I hope that we can explore something here.

I too like to see the world through scientific eyes than filtered through rainbow coloured New Age metaphysical spectacles, however ki has to be seen for what it is, so much of the historical explanation has to be 'un scientific' due to the lack of science when people first started to become aware of this thing/stuff/call it what you will phenomena known as ki/chi.

Three of the asian practices which I see as cornestone practices of the cultivation of ki ( I'll just uses ki to cover all the names for roughly the same thing ) are Aikido, Tai Chi and Yoga. They all work on unifying mind and body to cultivate good spirit / ki. I'm not really interested in their relative merits in these similar endeavours, only in that they all have a rich history to draw from. They all have esoteric philosophies, but are grounded in the constant practice of working with the body and mind in very specific ways to improve the overall human experience. You can't master any of them in a few weekend retreats, you have to commit to years of practice to even start to understand the deeper meanings of much of the teachings.

I can only understand ki in terms of how I was taught my aikido, and what I have discovered for myself through practice. I don't consider myself an expert in these matters, only a serious student who has spent 14 years of regular practice doing ki-aikido with a teacher who definitely does know how to use ki.

In the beginning I was told both to extend my mind and extend ki, both terms being interchangable. Later on I learned to think in terms of ki being separate from mind although I am quite happy to admit that that is nothing more than me thinking. It doesn't prove ki or it's existence. However, my practice has revealed enough to me to feel comfortable with my 'own' experience of it.

Now for someone wanting scientific proof, my subjective experience is not very measurable. I do however, have my own half baked explanation that may one day be proven to have some basis in reality. If not, I don't really mind, I'm open to what the explanation 'if' ki is ever measured.

I think I am up with current predominant sientific thinking when I say that the known universe currently is made up of what we know exists ( about 10% ) and what we speculate must exist, otherwise the current model doesn't hang together. This approximately 90% is refered to as dark energy and dark matter. It is there, it must be, it just hasn't been 'caught on film' yet. I like to think of it as the stuff that fills the space within the atoms ( and anyone knowing anything about this area has to be blown away by the amount of space there is between the 'bits' ).

In my thinking, this is how I see 'ki', the stuff that permeates the space between the atoms. I have no idea whether this hypothesis is true or not, but it works for me. In my own small world I can apply this thinking to most of what is written or said about ki.

All the mind / body practice that promotes co-ordination of both that allows for relaxed, focussed intent filled movement, will help in the cultivation of the state needed to utilise ki.

It seems to me that ki is not the preserve of a few small select band of martial artists, it exist in everything, however the 'very' effective martial use of it, maybe. We can all improve our own experience of it by practicing with someone who can both explain how to, as well as demonstrate it themselves, aikido and tai chi are both proven paths and I'm sure there are plenty of others.

If you can't measure it, you can't apply it martially - because any interaction we have as people is ultimately physical.

this is where I have to disagree, we are not just physical, all interaction has much more than that. Minds can both win and lose fights without any skin being touched. Surely this is the ultimate goal of the martial artist, to win without fighting. My take on this is that the attacker feels the strength of the 'defenders' mind/ki. If the defender's mind has already begun to take control, the outcome is felt, and this can be enough for the attacker to withdraw. How you measure it, I don't know, but just because you can't at present measure it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that we haven't found a way yet.

I reckon that that aikido will keep me occupied for the rest of my natural life, so by the time I can't do it anymore I will be I little better informed than I am now. Maybe I will live long enough to see ki being measure as easily as we do voltage now, and that there maybe amperage resistance components that show the difference aspects of ki. But then again maybe not.

Feel free to praise or pull to pieces as you wish, you may grin or stroke your chin, as you wish

regards

Mark

Mark Freeman wrote: Three of the asian practices which I see as cornestone practices of the cultivation of ki ( I'll just uses ki to cover all the names for roughly the same thing ) are Aikido, Tai Chi and Yoga.

Hmmmmm. Mark, think a second. Go get a bunch of old books on karate, Shaolin Kung Fu, Praying Mantis, Jiu Jitsu, Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, the Koryu, etc., etc., etc. They all talk about "ki" or "qi". Do you think they are talking about some other type of "ki" or "qi"? When you read about "prana" and "shakti", the Indian equivalents of qi/ki and jin/kokyu, in Yoga, Kalaripayattu, etc., do you think they are talking about something radically different? No. The Asian practices all have ki in them. It's the same mind, body, breathing, etc., etc., practices. It is a basic form of movement, training, use of the mind, etc..... all of those practices are simply various ways of utilizing these core skills. And there are variations, levels of skills, mixtures of the skills and muscle, etc., etc., so to an outsider it may look like they're different approaches, but the core skills and body theories are the same.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I'm not very skilled at Tai Chi or Aikido but I've done both a bit. To me, the similarities are so obvious. Both use ki in lieu of strength...at least as much as one's skill allows ;-). Both offer great spirituality. With some kokuho (spelling?) experience, I found push hands a bit easier than some beginners. That was enlightening and made me a deeper believer in the principles. My concern: some of these posts show serious conflict...did we forget to blend and harmonize?

Bryant

Thanks for the measured response, Mark. I have to return to work, so I'll be short (or as short as I can be, which is not very ):

On the dark matter/energy comparison: those concepts were introduced because they were necessary to make cosmology work, given our current understanding of physics (but they're far from undisputed, and we're all waiting for experimental evidence/new theoretical developments to point either way). This is a case in which we already have a fairly sophisticated system of laws that predicts the majority of our observations of the universe accurately, but we see that something doesn't quite mesh so we speculate there's something more - and yes, in science there's always something more, we never know _all_ of the truth. We're always open to new phenomena - provided there's documented evidence. In regards to ki, however, my view is that I haven't seen anything yet that _requires_ any explanation outside of the system of physical laws that we already have. My exposure to ki aikido is limited, but in the few years that I've been training (in other styles) I've yet to see or feel anything that I would call 'physically impossible' and requiring esoteric energies or mystic forces in aikido - and I've seen a number of high-level aikido shihan. I've seen some incredible things - but since I have some idea of how they are physically possible, I feel no need to talk in esoteric terms. Of course, it can be argued that I just haven't been exposed to the right people. Well, perhaps; I've only been in the martial arts for 5 years so it's certainly possible, but that's not enough for me to lose sleep over it.

You're absolutely right that human contact is more than touch; as a physicist, when I say 'physical', I don't mean 'involving the body', but 'involving physical effects' - so sight, hearing, smell, etc, all constitute physical contact as far as I'm concerned, as does the mental recognition of another's presence that accompanies the use of these senses. Chiba-sensei talks about 'feeling the air' between you and your oponent, for instance - which you need to enable you to react instantaneously to your opponent's intentions. I don't know if he means anything esoteric by this himself, and I can't say I've developed the skill myself, but I have no reason to doubt that full use of our very real, physical senses is quite sufficient for this kind of awareness ('instantaneous reaction' modulo the speed of light/chemical reactions in the body), and I don't think resorting to undocumented energy fields is required. I do think this kind of high-level awareness requires employing subconscious rather than conscious processes - conscious thought is too slow - and this is probably part of what can lead one to believe something otherwordly is going on. You may become aware of someone's movement without consciously realizing what gave it away, for instance - our minds are incredible machines that can take very limited input and find meaning in it. That you're doing things you don't understand doesn't mean they're 'superphysicall'.

When all is said and done, what I'm wary of the most is people who end up focusing on ki and meditation exercises at the expense of the martial aspects of aikido (the same as I tend to be annoyed by hippie-ish all's-love tai chi practitioners who're constantly 'soft and relaxed' to the point of collapse - all song and no kai, as they say - and think that puts them in some kind of harmony in the universe). If a person is martially skilled and knows how to convey that skill, I don't care what s/he _believes_ s/he's doing - I'll form my own understanding as I learn. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to see any very experienced ki aikido practitioners, and I'm sure there are many I could learn a lot from. The few fairly junior yudansha I did get to take some classes from were not very martially focused.


Edit: (heh, I wasn't short at all, was I)

Er, is Mike agreeing with what Mark said about how Yoga, Tai Chi & Aikido all use ki no matter what you call it, or is he disagreeing?

I think the confusing issue here is a matter of how much you buy into the paradigm of ki.

It seems to me that one set of issues has to deal with what the traditional idea of ki encompasses ( a lot) , another has to do with what Mike, Rob and others are describing as a subset of the group of phenomena describe by ki.

The specific subset in this case is a phyical thing, not a "spiritual" thing though both may be found together in the ki paradigm

Whether or not this is a true distinction , I guess can make a difference on how you interpret the different disagreements..

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: I think the confusing issue here is a matter of how much you buy into the paradigm of ki.

Well, I think it's pretty clear that I don't buy into the ki-paradigm. But to keep the accuracy of what's being talked about, I use the ki-paradigm-terms to delineate the particular topic. The actual ki-paradigm was brilliant, but it was more of a meta-theory than anything else. There really is no "ki"..... what is meant by the body skills/attributes of "ki" though is very intriguing and there's been little or no real western study of it. Someone's going to be on the cutting edge of some interesting physiological research.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange wrote: we did a simple push-hands type of exercise like this <snip> One partner pushes toward the other's right shoulder. The non-pushing partner rotates his hips with the push so that his right shoulder retreats while he remains upright and stable on his feet.

A bit like this with a slightly differnet stance?

Sounds cool.

I guess the key thing with any exercise is to make sure it is being done with the right reasons and the right understanding by the students (and teacher!), ie the appropriate goals & limits of the activity are made clear. And I guess this is where this thread is pretty much at the moment - ie discussing some details of ki/kokyu/whatever, because the subject is about whether push hands would be good for kokyu development. I'm sure most people would agree its no use have a vehicle trying to teach a particular aspect, if understanding of that aspect is completely lacking.

Cheers,
Dave.