Live Blades

A Samurai sword will undoubtedly cut through any piece of wood or material you put in front of it. Some of your replies imply that a wooden weapon (bokken) could fare with a katana in swordplay. A combat experienced person probably would defeat a novice swordsman with a wooden weapon, but not through weapon to weapon contact.

Legend has it that the founder of Shinto Muso Ryu jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to have defeated Miyamoto Musashi -- with Muso using a jo. You can read the story here.

There's plenty of weapon-to-weapon contact in jodo. The way we do our ken-tai-jo forms in aikido also takes in account the sharp edge of the sword as well...

-- Jun

Josh Mason wrote: A Samurai sword will undoubtedly cut through any piece of wood or material you put in front of it. Some of your replies imply that a wooden weapon (bokken) could fare with a katana in swordplay. A combat experienced person probably would defeat a novice swordsman with a wooden weapon, but not through weapon to weapon contact.

Depends on the wood, the sword, and the person doing the cutting. If you've done any test cutting you know that it's not that easy to cut through a solid piece of wood (that's why people use axes) even under good conditions. It would be several times more difficult than that in the heat of battle.

Best,

Chris

Josh Mason wrote: Some of your replies imply that a wooden weapon (bokken) could fare with a katana in swordplay.

Which replies were those? I didn't see any that imply that. OTOH, several replies suggested that for training purposes using a live blade offers little or no advantage over using a bokken. They were not refering to an actual match.

Jun Akiyama wrote: Legend has it that the founder of Shinto Muso Ryu jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to have defeated Miyamoto Musashi -- with Muso using a jo.

I have heard from jodo people that the legend of Musashi's defeat at the hands of Gonnosuke is just that, a legend. There doesn't seem to be any solid evidence of Musashi ever losing a match.

There's plenty of weapon-to-weapon contact in jodo.

From what I have seen, much of the weapon-to-weapon contact in jodo is with the tsuka. The rest is with the shinogi or mune. There is, AFAIK, no direct contact with the edge.

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote: I have heard from jodo people that the legend of Musashi's defeat at the hands of Gonnosuke is just that, a legend. There doesn't seem to be any solid evidence of Musashi ever losing a match.

That's why I wrote, "Legend has it..."

From what I have seen, much of the weapon-to-weapon contact in jodo is with the tsuka. The rest is with the shinogi or mune. There is, AFAIK, no direct contact with the edge.

Of course. I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

I do agree with Chris, though. I found cutting through rolled up tatami omote and bamboo to be pretty difficult in and of themselves. Of course, my tameshigiri skills are quite green, but I'd have to imagine that cutting through a one inch thick stick, especially when wielded by someone who knows what they're doing, wouldn't be as easy as, say, cutting through an inert stick of butter...

-- Jun

Jun, I have just encountered one of the limitations of this system: the lack of nested quotes.

Regarding Gonnosuke and Musashi:

Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote: That's why I wrote, "Legend has it..."

I'm not sure this is good legend to propagate without cautioning that there is no evidence to back it up. Muramoto does not mention the lack of evidence in his article but rather seems to buy into the legend himself. This is a bit anomalous since the rest of his article appears to be well-researched.

Regarding no edge-to-edge contact:

Of course. I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

No, you mentioned avoiding the edge in Aikido weapons as well. I was just clarifying what the weapon-to-weapon contact in jodo actually is.

I'd have to imagine that cutting through a one inch thick stick, especially when wielded by someone who knows what they're doing, wouldn't be as easy as, say, cutting through an inert stick of butter...

Even if the sword was unable to cut cleanly through the jo, I don't see why that aspect is particularly important for the discussion at hand. For example, if the sword were to only cut halfway through, it would weaken the jo significantly and render it ineffective as a weapon. (Perhaps the wielder could then snap the jo in two and use the pieces as a pair of tanjo!) While it is possible that some damage could result to the sword, it should certainly not be counted on. No matter how you slice it, I can't see any advantage to trying to use the jo against the edge itself.

Josh Mason wrote: A combat experienced person probably would defeat a novice swordsman with a wooden weapon, but not through weapon to weapon contact.

IMHO, a combat experienced person would not aim for the weapon, but the hand that is holding it. That's one of the differences in training and fighting.

Until again,

Lynn

Josh said: "Some of your replies imply that a wooden weapon (bokken) could fare with a katana in swordplay."

I guess Musashi thought so, as he reputedly used a wooden oar to beat Kojiro Sasake. Or is this a myth also?

Alan

I have found that I am accustomed to handling my Chen "practical katana" and use it for iai and tameshigiri.

But.....

I just bought a Chen Tiger katana. (Folded blade) and as of right now I am very leary of it. It has an entirely different feel than the prior.

I cut tameshigiri with it and it scared me.

What I'm getting at is; the psychology of the user really adds to how the sword is handled...even if you are experienced.

There is definitely a difference between having experience with a sword and developing mastery.

Michael Ellefson (MikeE) wrote: What I'm getting at is; the psychology of the user really adds to how the sword is handled...even if you are experienced.

So true. You can sharpen a blade, but what makes it alive is the training and intention (psychology/mind) of the person holding and using it.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn, I did mean to say that a combat experienced person with a wooden weapon would find other targets, and avoid the blade all together. I'm sorry that I didn't include that in my answer.

By the way, How good are Paul Chen's Katana's Mike? I've heard that the Practical Katana is a great sword for the price. Is there a difference in blade quality and sharpness between the Practical Katana, and the other Chen models? The website implies that the blades are the same, just the fittings on the Practical are less fancy. Chen's Musashi sword is killer man!

Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote: So true. You can sharpen a blade, but what makes it alive is the training and intention (psychology/mind) of the person holding and using it.

I was just reminded of a class where I was called up to help sensei demonstrate a technique against a bokken. The attack was munetsuki. He was stating how you just needed to avoid the space taken up by the blade. I attacked and he entered slightly and pivoted his body 90 degrees to illustrate his point. I must've missed his belly by about 1/2 an inch, but when I drew back my bokken we both discovered that I had given his partially opened gi a new button hole!

It's not sharp, it's not steel, but a bokken can very easily be something that surprises you if you're not careful.

Adam

Josh Mason wrote: I am a blacksmith/knifemaker, and I have yet to encounter a sharper edge than what's on a Samurai's Sword. Samurai swords have a unique convex edge (cantled edge) that have amazing cutting ability. The Japanese were way ahead of their time in their heat treating and tempering processes.

I am not sure that is historically accurate

Recent evidence seems to indicate that pattern welding was known by the Celts, in any case by 650 AD we have example of blade, like the Sutton-hoo burial boat one for example, was made from 8 different pieces of iron/steel, each of different metalurgy, pattern-welded and layered (ie folded) into an overlapping chevron lattice pattern, with the edge being made of a seperate, and much hardersteel than the rest, estimated to be close to 60 on the Rockwell scale.
Pre-cruicble steel (mid 13th cent) Scandinavia or Germano/frankish region were renomed up to the 12 hundred for their floded pattern welded sword and scandinavian swords were exported at great cost to Byzance, which is worth to mention, had access to indo-persian wootz (which can be made sharper but is less durable than japanesse or European sword blade).
That being said the lower end of the market blade werenot as complicated as the sutton hoo blade, they were usually two twisted piece(folded bar or arrangement of square rods of soft and hard steel)with a hard steel around edge forge welded.

By the 13th cent Europe was producing crucible steel which really makes better quality steel readilly availiable and swords cheaper and quicker to produce.

Up to the 14th century euroepan sword were really cutting swords. With the advent of the plate or even the transitional armour, trusting ability were required more and more,as cut is unlikely to defeat plate (or padding plate and mail) but an accute point can defeat mail and cloth or pass by the armour overlaping plate.

Hence the balde became diamond sectioned and distal tappered before that blade usually had a long fuller (a grouve in the middle in order to save weight).
And we moved froma realtively thin balde to a blade with a realtively stong spine to provide rigidity when trusting.

philippe

Go easy. Its not the actual cuts that will hurt you while using a live blade. Its usually the stupid mental lapse that costs you a finger or two. No sayabiki on the draw, impaling your left hand doing noto, cutting the webbing of your left thumb doing noto, bowing w/o gripping the tsuba and grabbing at a falling blade. Ive seen 1 nidan have an accident doing noto. On the bright side, it appeared that he wasn't in much pain when he cut his thumb, but bled like a pig.

Its not the actual cuts that will hurt you while using a live blade.

Well, they might not hurt initially, but they bloody well will later on. Take it from me, receiving no pain from the cut does not make it hurt any less...

guess Musashi thought so, as he reputedly used a wooden oar to beat Kojiro Sasake. Or is this a myth also?

I've seen the oar that he allegedlly used, in a museum in Kumamoto, Japan. And Kojiro's sword alongside it, so I doubt it's a myth, however, it's hard to prove it entirely I spose.

let me clarify, most people don't hurt themselves while cutting with a live blad, but cut themselves on the draw (cut through their saya and into their left hand) or noto (stabbing the left hand or cutting the webbing of the thumb). Once the blade is out of the saya, it is hard to cut yourself unless you are doing something careless or more advanced katas that are beyond your abilities.

Anyway, if you do anything long enough, a mishap is almost inevitable. I don't know anyone who trains with live blade in iaido who hasn't shed their own blood at least once.