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Old 08-09-2005, 12:31 AM   #26
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
I see it as somewhat looking at the "dark side" of our own art. And yes, it hurts. Those pressure points in the wrist and elbow seem to be used in every bloody freaking art. They don't give you *any* wiggle room. Once the technique starts, you're gone. No holes, no openings. But also very aiki at the same time. No question about effectiveness here.
Thank you Keith! Nobody seems to believe that aiki techniques can be effective! Or that you can hit pressure points in motion!

Amen!
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:19 PM   #27
Roy
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 118
Canada
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Dustin,

"Nobody seems to believe that aiki techniques can be effective! Or that you can hit pressure points in motion!"

Don't you think that this statement is somewhat exaggerated/ignorant?

Lets give Aikido, and Aikijujitsu some credit.
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Old 09-03-2005, 01:10 PM   #28
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
Location: Morro Bay
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 139
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
Keith, this guy is legit. I've checked and several of my aikido sempai have confirmed this.

I talked to a student today who's been training for 15 years. His wife took "model mugging" from my dojo cho. He's going to put me on the list for the beginners class. I'll take a few classes - maybe a month - before deciding if I'm going long term. My plan is to keep going to aikido weapons classes, if possible. I'll weigh my feelings every class but I plan on returning to aikido.

I will continue posting here but probably won't discuss daito-ryu.

To Mike Fooks: Sensei doesn't forbid students from taking other classes, he just frowns on it because most people can't separate training very well. There are several people who take other classes but they're all high level students.

Jorge, the student I talked with also said the beginning is painful but the higher level is very soft.

To Charles Hill: the "fresh meat" comment was hearsay. I shouldn't have mentioned it and I regret it.

I took my first Daito-ryu class Thursday and I had a very nice time. If classes are available near you I'd recommend a visit.

This just proves, once again, I shouldn't have commented before my first class. I wish I could "unring" that bell.

In a nutshell, ignore my previous posts and come to a class to judge for yourself. The worst part of class was finding the dojo. It's really out in the boondocks but they have brand new mats!! Which makes up for just about anything, IMHO.
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Old 09-03-2005, 06:00 PM   #29
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Dan, to me you sound like someone who is just looking to get support because of some doubts about a decision you have already made. Maybe it will help for you to try the daitoryu and the pain, but I seem to understand only this: that every student has a tendency to look for some type of edge, or shortcut. Good luck. In gassho
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:57 AM   #30
Tajar Hoxha
Dojo: Gjilani
Location: Kosovo,Europe
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3
Albania
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

For Mr. Dan Guthrie

You have a very good chance to learn something new and is rare this style.Everything will pass after maybe a month of training but what you trained in Aikido will help you to achieve the goal.Forget the begining and don't let this change fly from you.If I were you I will work more and more.They wil not and they can't harm you.
with luck Tajar(tony)Hoxha
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Old 09-05-2005, 07:29 AM   #31
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Just to sidetrack a litle bit : There were a few clips on Aikido Journal that displayed a guy performing Daito Ryu . You go check it out. Its superb!! It's like he's on the ground all flat and they are pinning him down but he manages to shake em off. I don't have terminology so excuse me for that description.
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:44 AM   #32
Brandon Shatley
Location: Knoxville, TN
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Have you made any friends in the Aikido class in the past 2 years? For me, that would be the most important point to consider. A close second would be the quality of your Aikido teacher. If neither of these give you enough reason to stay, then go to the DR and don't look back. In the long run, differences in techniques are less important than experiencing the class.
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:53 PM   #33
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
Location: Morro Bay
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Quote:
Brandon Shatley wrote:
Have you made any friends in the Aikido class in the past 2 years? For me, that would be the most important point to consider. A close second would be the quality of your Aikido teacher. If neither of these give you enough reason to stay, then go to the DR and don't look back. In the long run, differences in techniques are less important than experiencing the class.

I'm still training in Aikido. I think my dojo is wonderful and I have every intention of staying there. My teacher and sempai are likewise wonderful and I consider them all my very close friends.

My Daito-Ryu experience is also completely positive.

I don't see why I can't do both. Right now I just have to keep them separate and not do mediocre Daito-Ryu along with my mediocre Aikido .

I wasn't seeking permission for this new direction, only information. I'm not looking for shortcuts.

It's just my very ill-informed opinion but it seems that Daito-Ryu and Aikido are two different paths to the same destination. They are definitely two distinct paths, however.


Jiawei: I've seen/experienced some of that "explosive" ki. It's too bad that, like Aikido, it takes years to reach that level.


Famous expression: if it was easy they'd hand out black belts when you walked in the door.
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Old 10-06-2005, 01:20 PM   #34
Dennis Wright
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Mr. Guthrie,

I trained at that dojo some years ago while attending the college I took the judo class, taught by the same Sensei. I really enjoyed my experience in Judo and by survey of the jujutsu class. I have prior background in other martial arts, other dojos and other senseis, and I don't say it lightly that he is the exemplar of a true to life sensei. He is an authentic model of or an ideal Japanese sensei, true to the word as a person and sensei.

From what I had experienced in my survey of his jujutsu class was very traditional and challenging, not a cup of tea for those who want a casual martial arts experience. He uses traditional teaching methods and philosophies you read about. Methodologies, I later came to appreciate more. What comes to my mind are the emphasis on right-mind training, hard work, lots of repetition/refinement, and challenges. Lot of people say martial arts builds character, at this dojo they do.

In both classes, he doesn't give you it, he doesn't lay it out, you have to work for it, earn it, then be good at it. That really kills the boredom of your average martial arts class, and it kept my interest. Making each class worth every minute. Of course, it wasn't for everyone, Mcdojo is a term that doesn't apply, nor was it a social event like may other dojos that sit around and B.S. more then train.

I learned allot, I don't think it matters if Aikido is your first love, or this opinion or that matters when it comes to Aikido vs. Daito. See, when I was there one of the Daito blacks belts told me most of the students with [yudansha] rank had various martial arts backgrounds and ranks in other arts, he said it was a "martial artist's, art." There was a handful of Judoka's like me, had experienced Daito.

I don't want you to think this class is for everyone, it isn't. If you want to experience authentic Japanese martial arts without going to Japan this class is it. I was even told, Sensei is held in high regard by many Japanese sensei's and Japanese in Japan, as being and keeping the authentic traditional martial arts alive.

Take this for what it is worth, but I have never found anyone like him or the class. To my shi-grin, I had to move on. But, if I had my druthers this would have been the dojo where I would have stayed.

Good luck, and training!
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:00 PM   #35
bogglefreak20
Dojo: Ki dojo
Location: Ljubljana
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 102
Slovenia
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
If, after two years, you haven't begun to scratch it, then you haven't been training well. In two years of the other, you'll not of scratched the surface there either.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Either that or he just has a realistic view of what he does know.
Precisely.


Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Dan
For instance, if it were me I probably wouldn't do it (admittedly I didn't see the demo). But the fresh meat comment, and the insistance on studying no other styles would ring alarm bells in my head.

The constant pain thing would make me very nervous. Yeah MA's involve pain but within limits. I've seen too many old timers who can barely move to want to abuse my joints unnecessarily.
I agree completely. I fail to believe that busted joints are a necessary sacrifice in training martial arts.
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Old 10-07-2005, 01:15 PM   #36
Dennis Wright
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

As a person who trained there at that dojo, I would like to give insight on the "Fresh meat" comment, and suffering injuries. I don't want to debate this, I am just giving my first hand experience of being there and being "Fresh meat."

When I was there, the jujutsu class was practicing at the University, and Judo was taught at the judo club where I now believe both classes are taught. The jujutsu class had a lots of students I would say at least 20-30 students a night. I was one of them. It was the start of a new quarter and students had seen a previous demo at the University, so the joined the class. Most didn't stay after a few weeks due to the constraints of time and studies. I believe the class every so many quarters or so the class would swell in new college students signing up to train. It is my firm belief, as I too being a young college student of 20 something, and being guilty of it myself verbally teasing my fellow University students with being "Fresh meat." Whether at a college job, or on campus, I and others used that term for anyone new. It was synonymous with the word "Freshman."

Let me firmly state and put people's minds to rest, from my experience, the term isnot an indication of physical hazing where people leave the dojo bloodied, and abused such as it might be on High school or college football teams; where such things are worse in this respect. The term was given by college students to other college students, and it came from the campus culture. It was not a term initiated by the dojo, nor its Sensei. It is a benign term; an identifier likened to newbie. Because of my experience there at the dojo, it is nothing more than that. Nothing to be alarmed about nor an indicator of the Sensei or the dojo.


The atmosphere in the dojo is hard working, safe, and serious place to train. It is a no nonsense dojo where the training is intensely taken seriously, and you are there to get the most of our your time, rather then waste your training time in building a tower of Babel, and incompetency. I learn alto there, more then any other place I trained. And sure people get hurt, not often. From what I know it was newbies learning on newbies. You get hurt more being a kid then in training, that is because people at the dojo take what they do seriously. Judo is tough on the joints and I got hurt more in Judo. The Sensei would always caution us if we got to zealous in training and where not cautious. He would say, along these lines, be careful, people have to go to work in the morning.

This is my experience and as I said it isn't for everyone. I hope this gives insight to the matter.

Last edited by Dennis Wright : 10-07-2005 at 01:26 PM. Reason: spelling corrections
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Old 10-07-2005, 02:14 PM   #37
Dennis Wright
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3
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Re: Aiki jujutsu, I have an oppty to train

I want to expand a bit more on injuries at this dojo. I just skimmed over an important issue. Litigation is a household occupation in California, for those of you who don't know it. Any dojo that suffers a high amount of injuries would suffer equally many law suits, and would not exist. I will go out on a limb and say even one injury can find a dojo facing a hefty win-less law suit. Business in California, especially small business, fear litigation as California is known for siding with plaintiffs, thus awarding them big money. Business are very careful in California, they can be sued for things like having a customer stab themselves with a fork during a meal at the restaurant, thus suing the restaurant and winning. By taking in an account the threat of litigation over a stubbed toe in a dojo is very realistic and gives cause for dojo's being safe-we all know waivers are as good toilet paper. Otherwise if the dojo was full of injury, it would no longer exist due to law suits against it. Dojo's have to be careful and employ safety in this age of litigation.

As I said before, I think, my wrists hurt too for a week. The reason being was due to working with newbies.The result was soreness, and no muscle, ligament or tendon tears. The soreness ( more likened to a rub burn, and my wrists not being use to being grabbed hard ) eventually went away as my wrists strengthened, and I worked with other ranks. What was the most painful part of my experience was my zeal for seiza. The legs falling asleep drove me nuts, some of those guys could sit for a long time and just get up and way away. I struggled with it, and was told I could sit crossed legged until I practiced my seiza enough to allow for me to sit comfortably.

The intensity of training is pointing to the discipline in the class, much like a serious sport like gymnastics. You where there to train, and give it 100% all for your benefit. You didn't come to the dojo to play, you came to work and put your best effort into it. Those students who where not serious about it, they didn't stay long; most because they had to work. Honestly, the rest of the students who where there to work hard little tolerance (politely) for those wasting their time. I don't think this is a rare thing. You find it in any vocation, hobby, or sport that takes its self serious and has something to offer. I am the same way, I don't want people wasting my time. I don't tolerate those who waste my time when I am training or on the job. I want to train with the best, and be the best, and not with the rest. In my experience, the dojo isn't for everyone. I know they are not a Mcdojo. I know they have something real and genuine to offer and I wouldn't expect them to any thing less then serious about what they do. It's a matter of respect.

It is my personal opinion and common advice to not make quick and judgments based on limited information. Like anything you have to give it an honest and sincere test, and conclude for yourself.
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