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Old 06-21-2005, 04:10 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I enjoyed "Kokyuryoku no tanren ho" quite a bit, he discusses the topics covered briefly in "Aikido Shugyo" in much more depth, but the similarities to Daito-ryu concepts of "Aiki" come through much more clearly.
Hi Chris:

Kokyuryoku-no tanren ho is another one of those vague terms that can be translated according to perspective. Can you give a quick literal translation of the pertinent section of the book or what strikes you as most important? My Japanese is of the spoken variety.. I don't read, unfortunately, or I'd simply order the book.

Thanks.

Mike
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:17 PM   #27
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Bryan Bowman wrote:
Where would I go to read these? Or are they private?
Hi Bryan:

That particular point was made among a group of us that have all trained together, so it's fairly restricted. The point that there is a "glass ceiling" or essentially "restricted information" is fairly obvious... I was just re-inforcing the point for the benefit of people who haven't been around the Asian scene as long. I'm mulling over what it would take to break that glass ceiling and my instinct (and observations over the years) is that to get information you have to show that you already have information. That's the value of forums like this... if you get information out, you can raise the general level and force the teachers that really know to display higher levels of knowledge in order to maintain their edge.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:21 PM   #28
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Chris:

Kokyuryoku-no tanren ho is another one of those vague terms that can be translated according to perspective. Can you give a quick literal translation of the pertinent section of the book or what strikes you as most important? My Japanese is of the spoken variety.. I don't read, unfortunately, or I'd simply order the book.

Thanks.

Mike
I would say that the value of the book is that he (Inoue) discusses things in such depth, so it would be hard to reduce it to one-liners. OTOH, his Japanese is quite straight-forward, so it's not a very difficult read.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-22-2005, 05:13 AM   #29
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Bryan:

That particular point was made among a group of us that have all trained together, so it's fairly restricted. The point that there is a "glass ceiling" or essentially "restricted information" is fairly obvious... I was just re-inforcing the point for the benefit of people who haven't been around the Asian scene as long. I'm mulling over what it would take to break that glass ceiling and my instinct (and observations over the years) is that to get information you have to show that you already have information. That's the value of forums like this... if you get information out, you can raise the general level and force the teachers that really know to display higher levels of knowledge in order to maintain their edge.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Well, as somebody who is und er the glass ceiling I was trying to ask where I might go to escape it? Is this Aikiweb forum the only place?

Bryan
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Old 06-22-2005, 07:28 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Bryan Bowman wrote:
Well, as somebody who is und er the glass ceiling I was trying to ask where I might go to escape it? Is this Aikiweb forum the only place?
Things move slowly, Bryan.

I've tried to write various advices that I wish I'd had at one time, but the chances of really getting ahead by just reading are pretty slight. Keep looking around. One of the biggest problems people make (in all arts, not just Aikido) as accepting the idea that their teacher is pretty knowledgeable and is sage-like in their reasoning. Far too often I see cases where a teacher is limited but the students have the mindset that the teacher must know everything.

Always assume that your teacher is human, may not know everything, and may even have gotten a few things wrong... cross-check everything, particularly if it doesn't sound or feel right. Try to get a glimpse of the big-dogs and compare what they do with your teacher... this can tell you a lot and either help your confidence or confirm your suspicions. Try to follow the art, not the style or the the teacher. Base your decisions on your results, not your feelings. Don't listen to the masses, listen to the results (which, I assure you, the masses don't have). You can slip past any glass ceiling it you're clever about it. If you're content that you already have most of the information, you've just made your own glass ceiling.

Mike
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Old 06-22-2005, 07:49 AM   #31
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Inoue Sensei defined it as "Nuki no Kokyuryoku".That term is too difficult to me to translate, but somewhat as "Kokyuryoku to absorb the opponent's power" or "Zerofy the opponent's power"(Please help someone who can speak Japanese).
My Japanese is terrible, but I have heard this translated as "bring your partner's power to zero" as an alternative to what is commonly thought of when you hear "use their power against them". Personally, I'm finding that a bit of a combination between both of these ideas works bets for me. I try to bring the majority of their attacking power to zero and add to what's left for the technique so that both people are contributing to it as opposed to letting them go totally by with momentum and then cranking on them from somewhat superior position.

I get the impression that this is the same "nuki" as in "ai-nuki" which is typically contrasted with "ai-uchi" in sword practice.

Rob
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:17 AM   #32
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

If the statements about the soft kokyuroku are not more than a few sentences, could you translate them, please?

Mr. Sigman, as chirs Lee said it is a little bit long but I will try my best to share the knowledge.

But I fear that the terminology is somewhat typical Yoshinkan, so it would be maybe not enough for you.
Everytime when I discuss things or read things from Chinese martial arts guys, I'm impressed that there is a strict terminology about Ki and related things. It seems that they have a strict classifications about this things.

That seems to be a big difference from Japanese Jiujutsu. Japanese sword art has their own elaborated classification, and it seems that many words in Jiujutsu terms are coming from sword term.But about Ki and related things I think the terminology of Japanese Jiujutsu are notoriously vague.

In fact Inoue Sensei says that maybe the soft "Kokyuryoku" or the zerofying effect of the opponets force( nakusu waza) may be differ from the original meanig of Kokyuryoku (I think he means with the original "Kokyuryoku" somewhat that Shioda sensei explained in "Aikido shugyo" as the concentration of power and timing).

Inoue sensei seems to have in mind the "Aiki" of Daitoryu, but he states as Shioda sensei explained it as a variation of Kokyuryoku, that he is following his path.
So he distinguish two kinds of "Kokyuryoku", one is the "giving Kokyuryoku(ataeru Kokyuryoku)" which means you aply some kind of power to the opponent(of course not raw physical power but the concentrated power), and the "zerofying Kokyuryoku or diminishing Kokyuryoku( nakusu kokyuryoku)".

I need realy help from a person who can better translate Japanese to english, maybe Mr. Lee.

Anyway in the next part he takes nikajo(nikyo) tecnique of Aikido as an example and explain how differently the effect is between this two kinds of Kokyuryoku.

Well I would be impossible for the next 4day to post to this forum due to work, but I am really curious about your opinion Mr.Sigman.

Best regards
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:25 AM   #33
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Dear Mr. Liberti

"bring your partner's power to zero"

Perfect! I really should have read your post before I've submitted my own post.

The important thing is that it seems that Shioda sensei and Inoue sensei are emphasizing that all things happens inside your body.

As a famous teacher of Daitoryu( Sagawa yukiyoshi sensei) once said "It is not enough to just watch my techniques because all things happens inside my body. With just watching you won't get any clues. You have to feel it".

Best.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:34 AM   #34
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Tom Yawata wrote:
But I fear that the terminology is somewhat typical Yoshinkan, so it would be maybe not enough for you.
Everytime when I discuss things or read things from Chinese martial arts guys, I'm impressed that there is a strict terminology about Ki and related things. It seems that they have a strict classifications about this things.
Hi Tom: No, there is not a strict terminology among the Chinese. Sometimes I have to guess or ask what they are talking about, but once I understand some of their terminology and I already understand the principles, I can extrapolate the rest of what they are saying, usually.
Quote:
That seems to be a big difference from Japanese Jiujutsu. Japanese sword art has their own elaborated classification, and it seems that many words in Jiujutsu terms are coming from sword term.But about Ki and related things I think the terminology of Japanese Jiujutsu are notoriously vague.
I agree that there is something very interesting in the sword studies about Ki, but I don't know how to get that information. As usual, the westerners who do Japanese sword don't seem to know all that much, yet they think they know everything. I am simply tired of too many years of fighting arrogance for me to attempt an investigation of a martial field that I have no knowledge about.
Quote:
In fact Inoue Sensei says that maybe the soft "Kokyuryoku" or the zerofying effect of the opponets force( nakusu waza) may be differ from the original meanig of Kokyuryoku (I think he means with the original "Kokyuryoku" somewhat that Shioda sensei explained in "Aikido shugyo" as the concentration of power and timing).

Inoue sensei seems to have in mind the "Aiki" of Daitoryu, but he states as Shioda sensei explained it as a variation of Kokyuryoku, that he is following his path.
So he distinguish two kinds of "Kokyuryoku", one is the "giving Kokyuryoku(ataeru Kokyuryoku)" which means you aply some kind of power to the opponent(of course not raw physical power but the concentrated power), and the "zerofying Kokyuryoku or diminishing Kokyuryoku( nakusu kokyuryoku)".

I need realy help from a person who can better translate Japanese to english, maybe Mr. Lee.

Anyway in the next part he takes nikajo(nikyo) tecnique of Aikido as an example and explain how differently the effect is between this two kinds of Kokyuryoku.

Well I would be impossible for the next 4day to post to this forum due to work, but I am really curious about your opinion.
Thank you for the information, Tom. It is still not fully clear what is being said, but so far everything seems to agree with my general conclusion already. If you want to know what the true meaning of "Aiki" is and what "soft power" means, it is given a good illustration in this story about Chen Fa Ke (sounds like "chin fah kuh"):

At that Beijing wushu contest, Shen San, the nationally known wrestler, was also present. After exchanging some polite remarks, Shen asked Chen: "What will a Taijiquan master do when he is confronted by a wrestler?" Chen replied smilingly: "How could you choose your enemy?" So the two agreed to have a try as an encounter between a wrestler and a Taiji master. Chen raised his two arms and asked Shen to grasp them. When Shen took Chen's arms and the onlookers were expecting to see a thrilling duel, it was no more than three seconds and the two laughed. The contest was over! On the evening two days later, Chen was teaching his pupils at his training centre. Shen called, bringing Chen an expensive present. Seeing Chen's pupils were perplexed, Shen San explained, saying: "Master Chen is not only good at wushu, he is even better in morals. That evening master Chen let me hold his arms. I intended to make use of Master Chen's momentum but I couldn't. When I tried to lift my feet, I again found I could not do so. I was immediately aware of the fact that Master Chen was much better than I. Yet, Master Chen neither put me off my feet nor told anyone else. That's great. Today I am coming especially to express my gratitude."

The point to remember about this story is that when you know how, it is not hard to do this. It takes practice to do it well.


Best Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:55 AM   #35
Tom54
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

No I'm not sure whether this episode tells about soft power and aiki.

Maybe you are trying to mystify me, but honestly said when "Nuki no Kokyuryoku" of " Aiki" is applied to you, you would instantly loose your power, especially in the knees.

The muscles in the upper part of the body seems to be locked and you feel even difficult to breathes.

In other words, your whole body is controlled in a second.
Well at least that was what I have experienced at the blackbelt seminars.

Does your episode indicate the same thing?

I am sorry maybe I am missing something.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:03 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Tom Yawata wrote:
No I'm not sure whether this episode tells about soft power and aiki.

Maybe you are trying to mystify me, but honestly said when "Nuki no Kokyuryoku" of " Aiki" is applied to you, you would instantly loose your power, especially in the knees.

The muscles in the upper part of the body seems to be locked and you feel even difficult to breathes.

In other words, your whole body is controlled in a second.
Well at least that was what I have experienced at the blackbelt seminars.

Does your episode indicate the same thing?
Yes, it is the same thing, Tom. It is what is really meant by "aiki", at its highest level. But Chen Fa Ke did not do it with a cooperative partner, please remember, nor did Chen do it with someone who had perhaps too much respect for him as a famous teacher.

I have tried to point out that Shioda Kancho exhibits, to a certain degree (his students are too cooperative for me to fully judge his actual powers), this sort of power on one section of the Shingi Denju video. All techniques in Aikido should be based around this blending of power with the opponent's. Once you understand this idea, all techniques are just variations of one technique.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:14 AM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
All techniques in Aikido should be based around this blending of power with the opponent's. Once you understand this idea, all techniques are just variations of one technique.
Incidentally, just to forestall some needless discussion, the ability to do this sort of thing (that's why I used the brilliant static example with Chen Fa Ke and why I pointed out last month Shioda using the same basic principle) is trained. It's part of "using your center". It is not the same thing as "flowing with the technique", "he pushes and I pull", and so on. It is a peculiar skill that takes a while to develop, it is a closely held secret in most places, and you won't learn it by "making your Aikido more effective" through things like MMA, Systema, etc. If you go those routes, you can indeed learn to be a good fighter.... but you're going away from what Aikido really is.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:21 AM   #38
Tom54
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Thanks Mr. Sigman

Now I think I understand what you want to say.

Yes, it seems that we are discussing about the same thing.Of course I am far away to do such kind of techniques.

But it is interesting that you've mentioned taikyokuken(Taijiquan).

There are some matial artist in japan who cross train in both and make comparison among the two.

Coincidentally, at the Yoshinkan Takadanobaba dojo where I am trainig, there are seminars of Taijiquan(Chen school).
Many who have attended this seminars have the opinion that there are many similar things.

Well I had not the chance so far but I will surely try in the near future.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:23 AM   #39
rob_liberti
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Well, I agree that cannot be the *same thing* as "flowing with the technique" but I think the self coordination aspects are greatly inhanced by the social coordination of the waza, and of course the social coordination aspects of the waza are greatly inhanced by the self coordination aspects. I agree that "he pushes and I pull" is out, it should at least be "he pushes and I turn" but I understand that was besides the point.

Rob
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:33 AM   #40
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Tom Yawata wrote:
Now I think I understand what you want to say.

Yes, it seems that we are discussing about the same thing.Of course I am far away to do such kind of techniques.
It depends by what road your teacher sends you.
Quote:
But it is interesting that you've mentioned taikyokuken(Taijiquan).

There are some matial artist in japan who cross train in both and make comparison among the two.
This basic ability of controlling and blending the opponent's forces instantaneously is actually similar in some other arts as well. In other words, the *concept* of "Aiki" is in more arts than just in "Aikido". Of course, the different arts have different approaches to developing their ki and kokyu, different techniques (although there are many similar ones or same ones, too), etc., but the core concept of "Aiki" using ki and kokyu is essentially the same. For instance, the Chen style uses its famous "shaking power" (the rest of the colorful biography I quoted from is at: http://www.cintcm.ac.cn/catcm/gam/qgtj/e_chenfk.html ), uses very powerful strikes, and a lot of joint locks and throws.... but if you analyse what they do closely, despite the different techniques and powers, it is still "Aiki".

Best Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:55 AM   #41
Chris Li
 
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Tom Yawata wrote:
Coincidentally, at the Yoshinkan Takadanobaba dojo where I am trainig
If you see Ueno-san from Saitama Yoshinkan tell him that I said hello!

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-22-2005, 07:46 PM   #42
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

I have heard from a source (don't remember what that source is,) that Morihei Ueshiba studied Bagua for 10 years or so in China, and that Aikido has some roots in it. Does anyone know about this?
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:07 PM   #43
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Nicholas McDougall wrote:
I have heard from a source (don't remember what that source is,) that Morihei Ueshiba studied Bagua for 10 years or so in China, and that Aikido has some roots in it. Does anyone know about this?
Amongst other posts on this subject in these Forums, here's Chris Li quoting Ellis Amdur on the subject:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...9467#post79467

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Old 06-22-2005, 09:02 PM   #44
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Amongst other posts on this subject in these Forums, here's Chris Li quoting Ellis Amdur on the subject:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...9467#post79467
Nitpicker that I am, allow me to add some opinions to Ellis's comments, even though I tend to agree that Ueshiba did not study Bagua... he didn't need to since all the techniques and ki-training methods in Aikido were present in Japan before Ueshiba's time. Besides, Aikido does not use the store-and-release methods of Bagua or any of the so-called "internal" arts.
Quote:
Ellis wrote: To return to the original subject, I think K. Frantzis' assertion is extremely dubious for a number of reasons.

1. Bagua is perhaps the most dificult Chinese martial art to learn, particularly in terms of application. The circular walking, with the particular "wringing" tension through the spine takes many thousands of hours to master - and quite a bit of meticulous instruction and correction. Despite what Mr. Frantzis states, (and notwithstanding his own skill in Bagua), I think the similarities are only superficial - yes, Bagua and aikido have some throws and locks that are similar, but Ueshiba shows none of the very specific qualities of movement that well-trained practitioners of Bagua display. His knees aren't bent, the torso and feet are never "twisted in opposite directions" in the wringing manner I refer to, and aikido, unlike bagua, is straightforward - uke attacks and nage throws. Bagua includes strikes with every unique parameters, and often a dynamic reciprocal exchange with both people attacking and defending in very subtle ways.
The "wringing" Ellis is referring to is known as "contradictory power" or "antagonistic power" and it is a method of training, not a way of performing the techniques. In other words, if someone does "standing" training, you wouldn't assume that part of their fighting strategy was to simply stand in front of an opponent, would you? Besides, I'm quite sure that O-Sensei, Abe, and others did or do some "contradictory" training, but I don't want to lay out my reasoning since it's tangential to the thread. I'd leave the rest alone as too complicated except for the comments about Kumar's skills in Bagua... sez who?
Quote:
Wang Shu Chin, Sato's first major teacher, was always referred to as a t'ai chi teacher, even though he used that art to teach beginners - he was a hsingi, bagua instructor.
It's pretty common for Chinese teachers to capitalize on Taiji, since it's the one that attracts the most students. I have no feelings about Wang Shu Jin, but I wouldn't fault him on this one.
Quote:
Ueshiba surely saw some Chinese martial arts. There is no evidence in his personal history, and no particular evidence in his movements that he studied any.
And I think that statement sums it up pretty well, also.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:49 AM   #45
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Re: Chinese Influences on Jujutsu/Aikido

Just as an aside, Koreans are slowly finding out - in internet forums like this - how Japanese and Chinese most of their arts are.

As another aside, we had a sports day at our school last month. One interesting moment was a 800m relay (4 * 200m each) - in the final leg two started out together; one, a tall, fit-as-a-fiddle Korean straight out of the marines - known as the toughest branch of the military in Korea; the other was a short, fat Chinese student who I know practices a little Taichi (for health, so he says). Well, the marine ran his legs off and was exhasuted. The Chinese guy ran like an old woman, legs first (can you picuter that?), almost skittering along, but you know what - he won - and came in with a big smile barely out of breath. When he was running everyone was laughing as it looked so funny, but they cheered like crazy when he won.

The Chinese have something ...

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Old 06-24-2005, 01:09 AM   #46
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Mike sigman said(that's why I used the brilliant static example with Chen Fa Ke and why I pointed out last month Shioda using the same basic principle)

Hello Mike

Well I have a question. The technique that Chen used in the story that you introduced, is this what is called "ha jing" in Taichichuan? ( I don't know whether the spelling is right. When you pronounce it in Japanese it would be "Kakei").

Just curious.

Best
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Old 06-24-2005, 06:33 AM   #47
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Re: About kokyuryoku no tanrenho

Quote:
Tom Yawata wrote:
Mike sigman said(that's why I used the brilliant static example with Chen Fa Ke and why I pointed out last month Shioda using the same basic principle)

Hello Mike

Well I have a question. The technique that Chen used in the story that you introduced, is this what is called "ha jing" in Taichichuan? ( I don't know whether the spelling is right. When you pronounce it in Japanese it would be "Kakei").
I don't know, Tom, since I only know very limited Chinese terminology. What Chen Fa Ke did was the best example of what the core meaning of "Aiki" would be. Perhaps noting the title in Shioda's tape "Shingi Denju" (divine techniques?) where he is using a part of the same skills gives an idea of what I am trying to say. Sorry my language skills are so
poor.

I asked a Chinese friend of mine (who has done martial arts since he was a child and who speaks very good English idiom) about the Kanji for "Ai Ki Do" to see if the idea of "Ai Ki" was similar in Chinese. He said that while the idea of "he qi" was often used in Chinese martial arts, they don't say it like that. "He Qi" or "Ai Ki" seems to be a Japanese way of describing things, according to my friend's guess.

Do you understand how Chen Fa Ke controlled the wrestler?

Regards,

Mike
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