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09-29-2014, 08:38 AM
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#1
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Dojo: Mugenjuku
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 107
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shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Sorry, I looked in the forum archives but don't see an answer: when non-Yoshinkan aikido practitioners stop using the term "shite" and start using "nage" or "tori"?
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09-29-2014, 09:17 AM
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#2
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Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Christian Mikkelson wrote:
Sorry, I looked in the forum archives but don't see an answer: when non-Yoshinkan aikido practitioners stop using the term "shite" and start using "nage" or "tori"?
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We use the term shite. Not that much as tori, but we use it.
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09-29-2014, 07:43 PM
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#3
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Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 710
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
I got scolded for using shite - can't recall if it was here or another website. haha.
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Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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09-30-2014, 12:16 AM
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#4
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,308
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
This is not particularly clear.
In the prewar books (Budo Renshu 1933, Budo 1938), the Chinese character 仕 is used. In the early postwar books published by the Aikikai, there is no term for 仕 and the term for the attacker is 相手. Later this is replaced by 受, but with the okurigana け added.
Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 09-30-2014 at 12:18 AM.
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P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
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09-30-2014, 01:10 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?
Katherine
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09-30-2014, 08:22 AM
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#6
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Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?
Katherine
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I imagine these guys gave up trying to work with the local children's kendo clubs a long time ago:
http://youtu.be/7YblbB6As9M
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09-30-2014, 08:33 PM
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#7
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Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 710
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?
Katherine
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I never liked the romanji for 'shite.' Phonetically, its "sh'te."
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Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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10-02-2014, 08:08 AM
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#8
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Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Adam Huss wrote:
I never liked the romanji for 'shite.' Phonetically, its "sh'te."
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Nah, Hepburn is the right way to romanize Japanese.
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10-05-2014, 04:48 PM
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#9
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Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 710
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote:
Nah, Hepburn is the right way to romanize Japanese.
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I thought I remembered reading somewhere there were two forms of romanji, but I asked a couple people and they looked at me like I was crazy. Wasn't is a British and an American person who had different romanji systems?
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Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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10-05-2014, 04:50 PM
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#10
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 716
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
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10-06-2014, 03:54 AM
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#11
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Is it the case that 'uke' is constant while the name of the role of the doer varies (shite/nage/tori/aite) ? If so what does that say about the art?
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10-06-2014, 04:03 AM
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#12
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Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
Is it the case that 'uke' is constant while the name of the role of the doer varies (shite/nage/tori/aite) ? If so what does that say about the art?
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aite is synonym to uke. At least the (Japanese) teachers I know who use this term use it that way.
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10-06-2014, 04:36 AM
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#13
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote:
aite is synonym to uke. At least the (Japanese) teachers I know who use this term use it that way.
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How did that teacher call the other role?
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10-06-2014, 05:29 AM
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#14
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Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
How did that teacher call the other role?
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It was shite and aite.
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10-06-2014, 06:02 AM
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#15
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,308
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
How did that teacher call the other role?
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I cannot answer for Carsten, but it is curious that all the postwar manuals written in Japanese by those affiliated to the Aikikai do not use a term for the 'other role'. The prewar books were quite clear: the person who executed the waza was 仕 (shi-te), and the person who received the waza was 受 (u-ke).
In the postwar Japanese manuals (I am thinking of the two books published by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the early books written by Morihiro Saito and the more recent books written by Moriteru Ueshiba), the style is usually of the form, 'If your partner grabs your wrist, do this and this and this...' You can also see this in English, with Koichi Tohei's early books like This is Aikido. In the books by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Morihiro Saito, the Japanese is usually 相手 (aite), but Moriteru Ueshiba favours 受け (uke). The only dojo I trained in where the doer of the waza was referred to as 取り (tori) was the Ryushinkan Dojo in London, when Minoru Kanetsuka was the chief instructor. His early training was in the Yoshinkan. In Japan I have rarely come across this term and when I teach, I hardly ever need to use a term for the one who executes the waza. The one occasion when the term is used is in grading tests when the candidates exchange roles. Then the term is uke-tori koutai (受け取り交代/交替).
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P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
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10-29-2014, 03:21 AM
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#16
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Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 256
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
The prewar books were quite clear: the person who executed the waza was 仕 (shi-te), and the person who received the waza was 受 (u-ke).
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In the preface to the german translation of "Aikido Shugyo" the translater points out that shioda didn't use uke or aite. He used 敵 (teki), that is opponent or enemy.
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10-29-2014, 05:49 AM
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#17
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Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Might the change be connected to the unfortunate association of "shite" with excrement among English speakers?
Katherine
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Dear Katherine,
Your statement is a load of crap.Cheers, Joe.
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10-29-2014, 05:52 AM
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#18
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Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote:
It was shite and aite.
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Dear Carsten,
It sure is. Cheers, Joe.
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10-29-2014, 05:53 AM
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#19
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Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
Offline
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Re: shite to nage/tori: when did transition occur?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
How did that teacher call the other role?
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Dear David,
Cannon fonder??? Cheers, Joe.
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