No Sankyo

I manage convict's on parole at a job site...Today after lunch one of them grabbed some cash and when I asked him to return it he went
on the fight...he has a long history in crime and can really rumble...I attempted sankyo w/no sucess I am not allowed to strike anyone and getting his hand open was impossible even using the thumb press technique...he has been cuffed so often his pain threshold is
huge...I finally did Keitan Nage and just as he would go over I applied a C spine lock(neck crank) to get him under control... I think
wrist lock's on the street (outside the dojo) are less than perfect if atemi is not applied...
Has anyone out there had a situation like this?

did the sankajo get him off balance and in a position to do kaiten nage? Did you attempt to put sankajo on hard and fast in the move or break kind of way? How on earth did you get kaiten nage to work anyway?, and why? Did you throw him head first into the cement then put "C" lock on? What is a "C" lock? Just curios for more detail…

sorry just read the "just as he would go over" bit still confused though..

Wayne Gorski wrote: I manage convict's on parole at a job site...Today after lunch one of them grabbed some cash and when I asked him to return it he went on the fight

What do you mean by "manage convict's?" Are you the only "manager" on the job site?
Whose cash did the individual grab?
When you say "went on the fight," do you mean he attacked you in some way?
If he did indeed steal money from someone else on the job site, he probably should go directly back to jail. Did you call the police or his parole officer?

These guy's are on parole,and this particular man is a bit surley....he is mid 20's and has already come close to doing 10 yrs. in state prison,I am the only manager at this employment site...I don't want to see him go back he has potential and reporting this is his oneway ticket back...he grabbed some cash I had taken out of my wallet and was counting,he grabbed it and would not give it back when asked,I requested it again in a strong and forceful way w/no profanity...he then leered at me and started to leave the shop,I grabbed him and went for the technique he immediately tightened up and resisted...to get keiten nage I relased my grip for sankyo did a quick tenkan lifting his arm as I did and pushing down on the back of his head as he lost balance I stepped foward and secured the neck tecnique...
Dealing w/these folk is based on the right amount of compassion vs.
disipline,afterward's he did regret his action's and promised to stay honest and did admit to falling back into criminal behavior...
A neck lock is a method of locking the C spine from the front it is a bit like Nikyo on the neck...hard to explain but very effective the airway is not comprimised at all it is done standing,it can be very dangerous if you have not studied it well needless to say you must never get angry when controlling these fellow's...that is an opening for them...

I, too, have my questions about locks'* effectiveness, although unlike yourself, I have no opportunities to practice them.

But from the ivory tower of practice in the dojo, I've come to conceive locks** as a kind of ATEMI--you hit 'em with the pain and shock and quickly do something else.

Sounds to me that that's*** what you did.

Are you new to this job? It sounds like you have far more tolerance for the convicts than might a veteran.

Good luck.


__________________________
* plural possessive of "lock"
** plural, no possessive, no contraction
*** contraction for "that is"

There are various methods for making sankyo (or any lock) more 'effective'. I think ideally, a lock depends more on physical structure than pain compliance. You might consider getting some of Bernie Lau's videos. He modified sankyo a bit to make it work better for him in these kinds of situations (LEO). He still relied quite a bit on pain compliance, but can generate an amazing ammount of non-destructive pain. Andy Dale sells his videos over at wuji.com.

Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well though. Not all locks will work on every person, so being able to move into something else that will is critical.

Having worked in a correctional facility for several years, and knowing that the employees are taught several joint locks (e.g. kotegeishi), they can work but the application may be a bit different than what is practiced in the dojo.

In your present position, I would work with a defensive tactics trainer to see where the joint lock application did not work, and make modifactions to my training. I would also make sure every technique I employ on the job is DOC (Dept of Corrections) approved, so that if you crank an especially effective technique on a parolee, he can't come back with excessive force charges.

Wayne is an old friend of Bernie Lau's and mine, and is a long time student of defensive tactics. He's got more time in training than most of the people around here. Wayne, Chris is a friend and student of mine, so hence his suggestion of Bernie's stuff. BTW, Come on out sometime and visit.

From my take, you handled it about as well as can be expected given the situation. That is, no other people to help, restrictions on what can be done, and still trying to keep some concern for the individual in place.

The only thing I can toss out there armchairing this is to try and lock up his shoulder structure more to force more unbalancing prior to attempting a lock up. But sounds like you did a pretty damn good job handling it, and it's always easy to second guess.

The way I'm teaching things is go for unbalancing, kuzushi, prior to any attempts at lock ups or throws via joints. I see way too many people try and throw with out enough control over their uke- opponent and all it creates is a bigger problem.

In actual use, this can be as simple as step on the foot and shove the guy, or more subtle depending on the circumstances. Bernie always told me secure the upper arm and lift slightly to lock up the shoulder, then work on securing the lock. I modify that due to my being shorter, to secure the upper arm, then lift and drop, creating more unbalancing and bringing the suspect, uke, opponent(pick one to fit your circumstances) down to my height.

Anyway, good to see you online Wayne!

Some things simply have no effect on some people. For example, my wife is almost immune to wrist locks of multiple variety. It was really funny watching high ranking aikidoka trying their hardest to get a reaction out of her. On the other hand, grabbing my hand they made me tap in split seconds and my wrist hurt for the entire next day.

The biggest point to learn is what you already did, you kept moving, and the moment something failed you went right to something else. Circumstance dictates tactics, and that is exactly what you did. So never expect anything to have the reaction you think it will have. If it does, then great, if not keep moving right into something else. This is why I laugh inside whenever someone teaching me says "You hit them here and they WILL do X". Anyone who has any experiance has learned one thing always is true. People never do what we expect them to do.

I think you manage the situation pretty.
About your concern with sankyo, I the problem was (for what you wrote) you WANTED to do sankyo to him, and seems the situation didn't correspond to the application of sankyo.
One should never try to do the technoque he/she THINKS is appropiate, you should let the situation determine what technique is best.
And actually I think that happened next, when you change it to kaiten nage (i'm assuming that change was more a reaction to the situation, not something you conciously thought of doing, right?)
If you try to FORCE a technique on someone, 100% of the time they are going stop it, unless you are much stronger than them.
I'm assuming this person wasn't in a proper position for sankyo, and when he felt your technique, was really easy to stop.

My advise, donn't think of doing this or that technique, let the situation determine what technique comes by it self.

Sorry if it's confusing, english is not my native language

I appreciate all the info here...Neil good to see you on the site...I am sure you are familiar w/the "neck crank"c-spine lock,work's great...hope to see you soon.
My Best to Bernie and to you...
Wayne

Don Magee wrote: For example, my wife is almost immune to wrist locks of multiple variety. It was really funny watching high ranking aikidoka trying their hardest to get a reaction out of her.

This shows a lack of understanding of the locks involved. If one does a locking technique like Sankyo in order to cause pain, and the pain is what forces the opponent to move, then anyone who either doesn't feel the pain (adrenalized individuals or those on alcohol or chemicals) will not move. It's not about "getting a reaction" out of someone... it's about catching their whole body in the curve one is running.

The wrist locks in the plane of the palm. A technique like Sankyo is not about twisting the wrist until the partner decideis to mave because it hurts. It is about twisting just until you feel that the "slack" is taken up anf then one uses ones hips to "slide" the wrist through space in the plane of the palm. With a strong individual this may not even hurt but it will move the whole body.

The takedown on Sankyo is simply rotating the palm out and down. This also does not require strength and it does not require pain.

Don J. Modesto wrote: I, too, have my questions about locks'* effectiveness, although unlike yourself, I have no opportunities to practice them. But from the ivory tower of practice in the dojo, I've come to conceive locks** as a kind of ATEMI--you hit 'em with the pain and shock and quickly do something else.

Don,
A lock is just a handle that allows more direct power transfer to the center than would be the case if there were no lock. Yes, locks can also be attacks to the joint itself but this isn't how you move someone. in fact if one does a lock as "atemi' the purpose is to destroy the joint and that requires enough acceleration that the opponent doesn't move before the joint goes. Tom Read Sensei is the best at this that I have ever seen. Taking ukemi from him is terrifying.

Anyway, a lock for purposes of moving a subject is not about pain or power. It's simply a way to move the person on the same weak lines one would use if one were doing any other technique. for instance I can do a Sankyo on you that wouldn't hurt much, if at all, but it will move you quite nicely through space because it uses the ikkyo curve that all the other techniques run on. You can look at Sankyo as simply a way to move the entire shoulder line through space on the ikkyo curve. Then strength or pain resistance doesn't enter into it.

Wayne

My experience is that it is very difficult to get a control hold such as sankyo on a person that is squared off on you and sees you coming. I have found that usually, as soon as I grab their arm, the natural reaction is for them to pull their arm tight against their body. Even if you get the hold on them, if they are really fighting all out, they aren't going to feel pain anyway, and are going to pull their hand out of the lock.

I have found control holds such as sankyo to be very effective at a fairly low level of force, before the subject really becomes violently resistive or prepared to fight. My experience is that going for a control hold by yourself against someone that is squared off against you leaves you very vulnerable to getting struck if that person chooses to escalate the situation. I have had better luck going for a takedown, like an Osoto Gari from judo, and then trying to get control on the ground.

Also, while I realize it is totally a judgment call, I have to question your cutting this individual so much slack. I realize you are trying to rehabilitate people, but really, if this guy is a convict, and he is snatching money from you and challenging you in this way, I really think he is doing the typical convict manipulation game of testing your boundaries to see how far he can take advantage of you and control you. I don't see him as having the mindset to change his behavior, and I think you are going to have a lot more problems with this guy, and that he is going to re-offend pretty quickly, if he isn't already.

My experience, by the way, is aikido training since 1975, cross training in various other arts, and law enforcement since 1983, in a variety of different assignments.

I Found lots of very good response above, and I hate trying to guess what could go wrong, when I can not even see the situation, and particularly since it seems to me like you have handled the situation correctly by changing the locks, and you do have more restrictions then I would be comfortable with.

The only point I would like to make is quite simple. It is often easy to resist a lock before it starts working. If you are setting the situation up and go for a particular lock, the other person will sense your movements and he is very likely to resist them.
This is the logic behind the previous correct comments with regard to Kuzushi and to accepting the technique that comes along, rather then wanting a particular technique.

Besides, I would like to agree with the others on the subject of achieving control as opposed to creating damage. To achieve control against a resistive opponent is very difficult, any minor opening is likely to suffice for him to wriggle away. Many Aikido Locks are not sufficient for this purpose, those locks are more of the damaging sort: ruin a joint by tearing the ligaments and/or breaking. Those locks can be resisted in a controlling situation since they do have an opening, though the route Uke should move on for this opening is much longer then the route Tori would have to create damage.

Amir

P.S.
The Sinkajo version we practice works on a closed hand as well as on open hand, but it is aimed at creating damage and not at controlling.

George S. Ledyard wrote: Don, Anyway, a lock for purposes of moving a subject is not about pain or power. It's simply a way to move the person on the same weak lines one would use if one were doing any other technique. for instance I can do a Sankyo on you that wouldn't hurt much, if at all, but it will move you quite nicely through space because it uses the ikkyo curve that all the other techniques run on. You can look at Sankyo as simply a way to move the entire shoulder line through space on the ikkyo curve. Then strength or pain resistance doesn't enter into it.

I would be interested in playing with such a lock. I've found that tipically without pain I can use speed and agility to acheive better or sometimes superior positioning. With pain response I tend to be more 'willing' to come along. When a Sankyo is done to me, the pain response causes me (no matter how hard I try not too) to come up on my toes. This is the major unbalancing I feel. When I do not feel the pain (such as the person has not moved their hips to sufficently cause pain) then I simply can move faster with the lock, create space, and remove my hand while punching the back of their head. Unfortuantly for me, I almost always feel a lot of pain with wrist locks. My wrists ache for days sometimes with even the slightest tweaking. I think it comes from 8+ hours a day programing.

I would think that such a painless Sankyo would have to be very quickly transitioned and would require your attacker to be unable to adapt faster then you could transition to something else (I'm assuming a throw). This would make a Sankyo no different then any other proper push/pull or a judo unbalancing with the exception of that you are holding the wrist/hand. For example, in judo it is obvious to twist or push a perosn in a direction in which their balance is weak. And if you are faster then your opponent then this in itself is enough to defeat him. However if your opponent is faster then you, he can recover quickly and sometimes even use your advance as an opening for his own technique.

Thank's guy's lot's of excellent info from this post...I have put this lock on so many time's and under so many different condition's over the year's I really thought I had it wired...but alas there is alway's a new teacher on the horizon...this time it is this 25 year old...I know he was looking for button's to push and the neck crank was a big wake up call for him and a few other's I supervise....A ton of respect has been shown to me since the incident...Being involved in Aikido,and Aikijitsu since 1983...
I have come across so many different way's to look at situation's on and off the mat,I am alway's humbled when something new arises...Peter I do think it's only a matter of time till this "con" is back in Deer Lodge (MT. State Pen)...I would like to see some rehab though...I brought my Kettle Bell's to work and challenged my "boyz" to a snatch and press contest for Pizza at lunch...They all
got smoked and had to pony up for the food...I called the most expensive Pizza place in town..."How wonderful the taste of Victory".. .

Peter he's looking at 10 yr's w/out parole...

Wayne Gorski wrote: I brought my Kettle Bell's to work and challenged my "boyz" to a snatch and press contest for Pizza at lunch...They all got smoked and had to pony up for the food...I called the most expensive Pizza place in town..."How wonderful the taste of Victory".. .

Where did they get the money Wayne?

I'm rollin cash...I live like a Monk...Seriously I found a site that sell's them very inexpensively...If your interested I can post the site....And I do live like a Monk,in some way's... and work 60 hrs a week...

Don Magee wrote: With pain response I tend to be more 'willing' to come along. When a Sankyo is done to me, the pain response causes me (no matter how hard I try not too) to come up on my toes. This is the major unbalancing I feel.

If it only works with pain, then it only works on people who will respond to pain. This would mean that a technique like Sankyo is worthless against drunks, those on drugs, people with a high pain tolerance, anyone who is highly adrenalized, and well, just about anyone outside of a formal training situation.

If you understand the Sankyo properly, you can apply the spiral on the forearm, without the actual wrist lock and do the technique with virtually no pain to the partner. You can direct the energy to raise the elbow and take the person off his base. In this respect, yonkyo and sankyo are very similar.

I had a guy in my DT class who simply didn't feel pain like the rest of us. I could give him my 100% sankyo, which would have ripped the wrists of any of my other students and put them off the mat. this guy didn't flinch, didn't even seem to take much notice. But I could take him to the floor with it because I gave the energy proper direction.

As far as the attacker being able to "speed" up and beat the application of the lock, well that's one of the things that atemi was designed for. If we are at the point at which my partner is into trying to counter evreything, the we are pulling out some of the older applications of the technique in which there is alot more impact. Also, the sanko gets very tight when its in an applied situation. The takedown is not a separate movement. It's all a single movement. You don't have time to think about whether it hurts or not, you are headed to the floor.

Wayne

It sounds like your transition to the neck lock handled things quite well. Obviously, you handled the situation very successfully, even if your sankyo didn't work out. Practising transitioning from one technique to another is probably something most of us don't do enough of in our training.

I'm sure the other parolees were pretty impressed by the way you handled the situation, both physically and by not calling his P.O. Be careful though, while you gained a lot of face from this incident, he lost a lot. I'm sure his buddies have been giving him nothing but s***t, and he might want to try and even things up again. Even if he is looking at another ten. Anyway, it sounds like you have everything under control. Best of luck.

Peter

Training w/Sensei Bernie Lau was great in many respects but one outstanding aspect was Bernie's
work in transitioning techniques...how one can naturally flow into another and use of atemi...atemi from a distraction to a hard strike that may cause damage...I have had many seminar's w/ great sensei and had wonderful Keiko at the local Dojo but Sensei Lau's work is the best for practical hand's on "Git R Done" Aiki....

Peter Ralls wrote: Be careful though, while you gained a lot of face from this incident, he lost a lot. I'm sure his buddies have been giving him nothing but s***t, and he might want to try and even things up again. Even if he is looking at another ten.

Actually, this isn't necessarily the case. Many times these guys understand "superior force". If he mouthed off to Wayne and wasn't seen to back down (which would have been a big loss of face) and Wayne was forced to use physical force on him, then honor has been maintained. The guys in jail all know that there is pretty much an unlimited amount level of force that can be brought to bear against them no matter how much they want to fight. They know the guards get to win. As long as Wayne was professional, didn't cheap shot him, simply did what was required to restrain him, he is unlikely to have much trouble from the guy, nor is the inmate likely to get much grief from his buddies. They are all in the same boat. Losing a fight is honorable if you didn't look like a wimp by backing away from it.