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Old 01-11-2007, 08:39 AM   #1
John Matsushima
 
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sankyo

When you apply sankyo, do you hold uke's hand close to your body or away from you? Why?

sankyo very much.

-John Matsushima

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Old 01-11-2007, 08:53 AM   #2
kocakb
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Re: sankyo

away and upwards from me, close to his/her face..prevents to hit me with his free hand and gives more pain and makes easier to control him, and helps to get him down to the floor while finishing the technique...
but, I have also seen sankyo close to the body, but I think your hand should be close to your chest and you should grip with two hands like holding a sword, this helps to force him to walk with you...
IMO, first one if you want to throw him or get him down to the floor and the second one if you want to walk him with you or use him as guard!
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:27 AM   #3
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: sankyo

In the old days a snkyo was an attack on the joint. The holding hand was placed against the body while the other hand threw the atemi. The hip action of throwing the atemi delivered great force to the joint. It was not meant to facilitate ukemi but was meant to be applied fast and hard enough that the joint would be damaged.

The farther out from your body you hold the lock, the more it facilitates the movement of the uke. It also allows you to not throw the atemi which you have to do if you hold it close.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:01 PM   #4
BC
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Re: sankyo

In our dojo we hold uke's hand close to our body so that you use your body to apply force, and don't rely on upper body strength.

Robert Cronin
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:23 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: sankyo

You actually can do the same with the arm extended...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:21 PM   #6
eyrie
 
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Re: sankyo

To be accurate, since your hands should be "connected" to your hips, it's not so much where you have your hand - close to the body or further out.

What matters is (1) what you want to (or are forced to) do as a follow through (restraint/atemi/throw/takedown/separating tendon from bone) and (2) whether you can maintain connection and control throughout the movement.

So... where your hands need to be is largely dependent on this.... but it is not something I focus on. What I do focus on is how uke is standing... flat-footed or on tippy toes...

Ignatius
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Old 01-11-2007, 07:56 PM   #7
Al Williams
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
To be accurate, since your hands should be "connected" to your hips, it's not so much where you have your hand - close to the body or further out.
I was wondering when someone would mention hips. You can hold the ukes hand at your head level, hip level or anywhere in between.
The hip connection is the most important part of the technique.

I should be able throw an atemi in at any point of the technique regardless of if the hand is close, far, high or low. Atemi does not always have to be at the face or head.

TRAIN HARD AND OFTEN
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:08 PM   #8
eyrie
 
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Re: sankyo

To be even more pedantic, your hands ARE your hips... or was that hip in your hand?

And atemi doesn't have to be te-waza necessarily... (puts flame retardant suit on)

Ignatius
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:10 PM   #9
raul rodrigo
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
What I do focus on is how uke is standing... flat-footed or on tippy toes...
I prefer to extend my arms and focus on a kokyu movement that raises ukes center and breaks his connection with the ground, making him easy to move.

Some Hombu shihan like Miyamoto and Kuribayashi do it the other way, with hands close to the body and they let the turn of the body do most of the work. But they also have a small sword cut movement downward with a turn of the wrist that is very powerful.
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Old 01-11-2007, 11:00 PM   #10
xuzen
 
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote:
When you apply sankyo, do you hold uke's hand close to your body or away from you? Why?

sankyo very much.
In kihon (kata), away from body.

In jiyu-waza (free sparring), I keep it close to my body, and as I turn or pivot (tenkan), it never fails to make uke tap. And of course, I am mindful to include atemi as I turn. This is the form that I find works in an un-rehersed manner.

Boon.

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Old 01-12-2007, 04:29 AM   #11
Dazzler
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
I prefer to extend my arms and focus on a kokyu movement that raises ukes center and breaks his connection with the ground, making him easy to move.

Some Hombu shihan like Miyamoto and Kuribayashi do it the other way, with hands close to the body and they let the turn of the body do most of the work. But they also have a small sword cut movement downward with a turn of the wrist that is very powerful.
This raising of ukes centre sound similar to the version we use.

Effectively the spriralling cut upwards then downwards maintains the relationship with the sword, and further to this getting uke up on his toes (as pointed out by Ignatious) makes it much easier to move uke to a place where he cannot damage you (good kamae and maai).

In my experience, reliance just on the body turn alone can be very powerful too, but without the cut up it is possible that you have a solidly based flat footed uke that is very hard to shift without introducing excessive painful force through the sankyo.

With respect to atemi, if the hip turn is sufficient to move uke around to a position where he cannot hit Tori then personally I dont see any need for additional atemi although I'll clarify that the downward cut should be via ukes head/centre which achieves pretty much the same reaction anyway.

FWIW

D
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:16 AM   #12
Ketsan
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Re: sankyo

As my instructor would say "Think weapon, hasso"
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Old 01-12-2007, 09:01 AM   #13
raul rodrigo
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Re: sankyo

Speaking of hasso and sankyo: My shihan has a hasso style sankyo ura. He holds sankyo somewhere near the level of his ear, trying to create and maintain a square that consists of his forearm and ukes palm parallel to the ground, uke's forearm (vertical), uke's upper arm (horizontal) and the side of ukes torso. Then he continually does tenkan until centrifugal force (and ukes scrambling to keep up with his hand) create enough kuzushi that uke will go down with the slightest downward cut. Its a technique that done with no muscular effort and no wrenching of the wrist--an elegant waza that I hope to get some day.
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:59 AM   #14
mwible
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Re: sankyo

in my dojo its kind of in the middle in front of you and by "in the middle" i mean not so that your arms are extended and not so that they are very far from your body, but just kindof in the middle and also the way we do it, it should be probably about at the bottom of his ribs(height level', i dont mean that it should be touching his ribs) and well, thats how i do it, and when i move from my hips it seems to work quite well.
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:00 PM   #15
Cory Hansen
 
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Re: sankyo

In our Dojo we do Sankyo about 6 inches from the chest and use our center to apply the technique.

When we apply sankyo we do so we effect the uke's center to make the technique work instead of using pain to make it work.

For people that are not that flexible the pain will be there but people that are real flexible you don't need pain to make the technique still work.
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:54 PM   #16
eyrie
 
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Re: sankyo

Hmmm.... if you're "using your center to apply the technique", then does it matter if sankyo is held 6" away, on your chest or at arms length? Think about it....

Ignatius
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:57 PM   #17
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
In the old days a snkyo was an attack on the joint. The holding hand was placed against the body while the other hand threw the atemi. The hip action of throwing the atemi delivered great force to the joint. It was not meant to facilitate ukemi but was meant to be applied fast and hard enough that the joint would be damaged.
The farther out from your body you hold the lock, the more it facilitates the movement of the uke. It also allows you to not throw the atemi which you have to do if you hold it close.
yeah, in all those old days ppl were real barbarians....

In reality, sankyo must lock entire body of attacker, so this way even small movement of your hips will move attacker. So in this light position of his hand is not so important if tori is able to really lock him completly. Even if tori hold uke's hand like a sword tori still can deliver atemi(example; a kick) so no problemo.

No fixed position allows tori to adapt himself very easy, in really extreme cases he can put uke's hand directly on the hip to power his movement -- this is really dangerous version. No fixed position allows also to understand sankyo as rather temporary state of global situation, that is used merely to establish connection and momentary unbalancing -- kind of set up before finishing him up.

Nagababa

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Old 01-17-2007, 09:54 PM   #18
xuzen
 
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Re: sankyo

Sankajo are techniques whereby if you get it; is not there for you to hold indefinitely.

Once I get hold of it, my next reaction is to secure uke in immobilzation as per osae or osaekomi. If you remember correctly, the whole kihon waza involves from the lock to osae (at least in Yoshinkan syllabus). Hence in my understanding, sankajo lock is just a transitionary technique for tori to get uke into the osae pin (osaekomi). Sankajo is not the end of the kihon-waza. Remember that!

If you think that you can get a non-compliant uke to move in un-ending circle while you hold on to sankajo, you are crazy.

Personally, in multiple uke jiyu-waza, when I get sankajo on uke, I will just follow through with sumi-otoshi type throw or kaiten-nage and be off with dealing with the next uke.

With respect to atemi while doing sankajo, I prefer to atemi as I take uke down to the osaekomi, not while spinning uke around.

Boon.

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Old 01-18-2007, 05:30 AM   #19
Aikilove
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Re: sankyo

Both... Saito M. shihan taught that in kihon sankyo omote was with hand connected to chest and delivering atemi with other hand (like Georges version), atemi both for the extra power in the movement but also to keep uke away since his hand is closer to you
Ura would then be both hands at armlength distance (like sword). Both hands because it was a safer grip (for tori), when not using your body as anchor point, and away from body because that alows you to keep ukes reach away from you.
Of course this was kihon to illustrate the two extremes. But kihon never the less.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:08 AM   #20
ian
 
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Re: sankyo

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
To be accurate, since your hands should be "connected" to your hips, it's not so much where you have your hand - close to the body or further out.
Yes, indeed I would have even thought closer to the body is more difficult for control and extension. However, just as done in some ju-jitsu styles, what is best for a beginner to do (i.e. more practical) is not necessarily what's best for a more advanced student to do (don't let me get into that minefield!)

I find the key tips to sankyo:
1. extend as if you are passing the blade of their hand forwards across their back (don't twist, it's not as effective)
2. keep the uke's wrist straight (some people practise wrist bent inwards, but control of elbow seems less, and uke can sometimes drop their elbow).
3. ensure uke's elbow angle does not get less than 90 degrees (otherwise can drop their elbow or turn sharpley away from it).

Also, personally I would always hold it away (you can still strike quite easily as you snap the wrist with the other hand), just because of the risk of a sharp turn followed by a reverse elbow strike to the head from uke, them dropping the elbow, or striking with the other hand.

Sometimes its a bit like spaghetti, but if the extension and arm is held correctly the feedback from uke will allow you to adjust very easily, and the control should be through the shoulder, not just the wrist.

Interestingly I've seen various old samurai pictures with sankyo taken with either hand (not just right on left, but right on right etc). Also, you may notice that in video of Ueshiba (suwari waza) the sankyo is actually on (right hand to write hand) from directly after contact, so the hand swapping is not the initiation of the technique, just getting a better grip!

Ian

P.S. I'd find it hard to get the feeling of sword movement with the hand near the body also.

Last edited by ian : 01-18-2007 at 08:15 AM.

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Old 01-29-2007, 11:22 PM   #21
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: sankyo

Umm....in between.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 02-11-2007, 08:17 PM   #22
David Humm
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Re: sankyo

I think an important point is where uke is in relation to the application.. standing, half prone or prone when the sankyo is applied ?

My own personal opinion is that attempting sankyo with a person standing IE up right is a smack in the face waiting to happen however; if one's awase and kuzushi has taken the posture of uke to the point of almost falling over (before the sankyo) then the application will work either close to the body or slightly extended.

I myself would never attempt sankyo with a person upright unless there's been a couple of good atemi gone in before hand

Regards
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Old 02-20-2007, 05:00 AM   #23
Jory Boling
 
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Re: sankyo

in my class, it seems to end up at about half of a full extended arm out. but it also seems to be applied by my various sensei from various distances.

i'm interested in the how the original poster does it and why?
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Old 03-18-2007, 02:06 PM   #24
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Re: sankyo

An interesting aside - a great way to make an unexperienced nage really work for it (and get the right idea) with Sankyo is to advance when uke'ing toward the nage's body. This will reduce the tension in the arm and really give the nage a bit of a scare. Works well in getting the balance right by showing them that the Sankyo really needs to be applied in quick succession from the original irimi movement.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:25 PM   #25
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Re: sankyo

Where does one try to throw the atemi when the arms are more extended and not close to or on the chest?

curious,
dmv

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