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Hellis
12-20-2010, 11:46 AM
I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw

Oh dear :hypno:

I was more impressed with the cure for `hiccups` seemed to work very well.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

lbb
12-20-2010, 11:51 AM
Apropos of nothing, every time this thread pops up as having a new entry, I'm reminded of the calculated, disingenuous rhetorical question, "Why do you hate freedom?"

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 11:52 AM
You are just as delusional as the people in the video .... see if they can actually do it you before producing such crap!!!!
I had this tried on me and nothing happened .... something about me not being receptive or some such bullshit:crazy: :hypno: :eek: :D

Thank you. I like being called that. I choose to stop our conversation know.

To anyone interested:

In the world of Kyusho, this is understood as energy-projection. Energy is being projected into different pressure points, and causes activation of these. It's a high-high level mastery, and it's similar to activating pressure points, just without touching them.

It's only for demonstration as these things can be countered, if the uke used is determined not to make it work.

Yes I have tried something similar. Not a knockout, but me jumping 8 feet back from having energy projecting into my shoulder. And no, I do not respond if not something is happening. My sensei tried one spot first, which had limited to no effect, while the second one had me reacting as if a pressurepoint was actually struck.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-20-2010, 11:58 AM
... There was no stance, just standing relaxed is if you where waiting for a bus and the other person holding you from behind around the stomach trying to lift you from the ground. So there was no structure like pictured in the link.

Well, this different approach to the 'unraisable body' can be studied also under a scientific perspective.

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 12:04 PM
Well, this different approach to the 'unraisable body' can be studied also under a scientific perspective.

I will look forward to viewing the result. I will share a little secret about this test. We didn't lower our center of gravity or altered our tension. We just thought of light or heavy things. Very odd, but the effect was clear as had the uke gained 50 pounds.

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 12:05 PM
I said forget the word "Ki".... And as you are so familiar with it?

Posture or kamae to you, high, medium, low..... done whether you turn, pivot or otherwise, standing up, kneeling, seiza, shikko, whatever Japanese terminology you wish to use which I don't, other than names of waza we use in the basic 17 we use in T/S aikido, whether walking on the knees, whether holding a weapon or not.... Posture is fundamental to all fighting arts, whether Asian, Western or otherwise and is a natural stance which we tidy up a bit with aikido by keeping ones centre of gravity low whichever stance one takes, this is achieved by bending the knees and keeping relaxed..... body weight distributed 2/3 front leg and 1/3 back leg or in the case of mushin mugamae (no posture) ,,,,, shizentai, both legs have the weight evenly distributed again with knees bent and the body relaxed.....
Care for any more?

Now you explain to me what "ki" is......

Tony, come now. What you described here is nothing more than basic posture and weight distribution. Posture is posture, not ki. You said you could describe "ki" as body mechanics, so please, do so.

dps
12-20-2010, 12:15 PM
Hi Charles,

Hi David,

There are researchers studying the neurological effects of meditation whose basic headline is -- "if it fires together, it wires together." (that is, a chemical reaction resulting in electric discharge within the nervous system, for the unpoetic.)

http://belleruthnaparstek.com/hot-research/motor-imagery-and-action-observation-cognitive-tools-for-rehabilitation.html

"Brain scans show that motor imagery leads to the activation of the same brain areas as actual movement. In addition, it suggests that it is possible that even observation of a movement performed by another can play a similar role in learning."

http://books.google.com/books?id=w-FlXA8p7vQC&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=imagery+an+example+of+a+psychological+skill&source=bl&ots=QZFFs8lgZR&sig=sXwLLNkTcl5cQaTK-N5Cme_TVnk&hl=en&ei=GZwPTazlIMKdnAeIzYXWDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=imagery%20an%20example%20of%20a%20psychological%20skill&f=false

dps

dps
12-20-2010, 12:17 PM
I think that the title of this thread should be changed from,

"Why do some people hate Aikido?"

to

"Why do some people in Aikido hate Aikido?"

dps

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Some of the best people in the world have taken their best shots at him. I have personally witnessed some of it. If you think that someone like Katsumi will not face up to it, then by all means, give it a go yourself. Katsumi is one of the greatest full contact, karate tournament fighters period. Ushiro Sensei is open to anybody stepping up to the plate. A K-1 champ tried it as well, same outcome. That is why so many people have left their teachers and are now studying with him. As a psychologist, I think that I have a very good understanding of hypnotic process, psyched out...... I would venture to say that my understanding of those areas is greater than your own. That being said, I am a genuine skeptic and always step up to the plate to test things out. I have and continue to do so with Ushiro Sensei. That is why I am additionally training with him and taking the significant time and expense to travel to Japan and bring him to the US.

I think that you know by my posts that I am not an aiki-bunny. I can also acknowledge levels and skills sets that go beyond the ordinary. Ushiro Sensei's use of Ki is one such person who can deliver the goods, regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Then again, come to Lyon and test it out yourself. You and I can wash down your experiences with some nice suds (or wine) afterward. First rounds on me...

Most of the stuff that looks fake, is fake. Then again, there are some people out there whose stuff looks fake and simply is not and far beyond where we are.

Marc Abrams

ps- The guy who did the series "mind-body kickass" is from England. Contact him directly and ask him privately about Ushiro Sensei.

So you have studied psychology, so what? Even the best have been hoodwinked..... and that's a fact!!
I've studied in the university of life and there is no better experience other than experiencing life itself. I have met no one who can actually put their "ki" on or manipulate me other than physically for real...... You, like many, have taken it in your mind that he has mystical power, therefore you believe it.....No different in whether you believe in Santa Clause or some old geezer with a white beard and little cherubs flying around him /it.
If you want to send me the airfare or travel tickets + hotel /entrance fees FREE of charge then I may entertain it, otherwise I will be washing my non existent hair.....:hypno: :hypno: :hypno: ;) :)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:22 PM
Tony, come now. What you described here is nothing more than basic posture and weight distribution. Posture is posture, not ki. You said you could describe "ki" as body mechanics, so please, do so.

That to me is what so called ki manifests itself from.... so c'mon explain me your "ki" either that or shut up...... or are you going to :hypno: me?

CNYMike
12-20-2010, 12:23 PM
.... I'm talking about people who are gullible ....

No, you specifically said "They make a fortune." That's what I responded to.

RonRagusa
12-20-2010, 12:25 PM
Yes, something else is happening:

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

It's not that something else is happening. The same thing is happening, two people are having a difficult time lifting one person. What you have shown is the equivalence of two metaphors used to explain the same real event. The physics metaphor is mathematical while the ki metaphor is experiential.

My question is, when it comes to instructing Aikido students on how to achieve weight underside, which model makes the better teaching tool?

Best,

Ron

CNYMike
12-20-2010, 12:26 PM
I've personally found that when you repeat something 1000's of times over it's never the same each time, but the doing does kinda get better over time.... nothing mysterious about that..... :cool: ;)

And I didn't say you wouldn't get those repitions, only that the ki model might help your brain direct your body in repeating whatever it is you're doing. If it works for you great. If it doesn't, don't do it.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Thank you. I like being called that. I choose to stop our conversation know.

To anyone interested:

In the world of Kyusho, this is understood as energy-projection. Energy is being projected into different pressure points, and causes activation of these. It's a high-high level mastery, and it's similar to activating pressure points, just without touching them.

It's only for demonstration as these things can be countered, if the uke used is determined not to make it work.

Yes I have tried something similar. Not a knockout, but me jumping 8 feet back from having energy projecting into my shoulder. And no, I do not respond if not something is happening. My sensei tried one spot first, which had limited to no effect, while the second one had me reacting as if a pressurepoint was actually struck.

As always we go around in circles just like religious nutters always do...... so blind is your rhetoric......

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:30 PM
Apropos of nothing, every time this thread pops up as having a new entry, I'm reminded of the calculated, disingenuous rhetorical question, "Why do you hate freedom?"

nothing to do with freedom..... I feel free because I do not believe in such nonsense, as you would have me believe Mary?:hypno: ;) :)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:34 PM
And I didn't say you wouldn't get those repitions, only that the ki model might help your brain direct your body in repeating whatever it is you're doing. If it works for you great. If it doesn't, don't do it.
Personally I only repeat that which is worth repeating and is applicable and common sense and works for me.... that applies to anyone who is rational.....

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:38 PM
No, you specifically said "They make a fortune." That's what I responded to.

Oh sorry, whichever way you look at it.... they make a fortune out of others misfortune and bad luck? Ie in the religious sense? The crutch people need to make sense of life and all that.....
:)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI&feature=related
:rolleyes: :hypno: :hypno: :hypno: :eek: :D

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 12:41 PM
That to me is what so called ki manifests itself from.... so c'mon explain me your "ki" either that or shut up...... or are you going to :hypno: me?

Well that's all fine and good Tony, all sorts of things manifest themselves from good posture, but that's hardly an explanation of ki or its usage via body mechanics. I seriously doubt that good posture was all that Kano and Tomiki saw and wanted to learn from Ueshiba. So please, continue.

Also, I wasn't the one who made the claims about ki being simple body mechanics. So the burden of explaining it is on you.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 12:45 PM
It's not that something else is happening. The same thing is happening, two people are having a difficult time lifting one person. What you have shown is the equivalence of two metaphors used to explain the same real event. The physics metaphor is mathematical while the ki metaphor is experiential.

My question is, when it comes to instructing Aikido students on how to achieve weight underside, which model makes the better teaching tool?

Best,

Ron

Common sense!!!!!!!!!:hypno:

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 12:46 PM
I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw

Simon:

What do you think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0

Marc Abrams

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Just want to clarify a couple of things:

1. I'm an atheist, and will remain this for a while.

2. I'm open minded, and refuse to reject things which I have a hard time figuring out.

3. Our dojo is charging about 12 pounds each month for membership and training 3 times a week. You be the judge weather or not this price is unfair.

mickeygelum
12-20-2010, 12:59 PM
While discourse yeilds a profound understanding of feces...yes, feces...bovine fecal material to be precise.

I ponder the query, " Is this rhetoric, might it reflect disingenuous intellect or the absence of a twenty-third chromosome?".

While I enjoy unbridled liberty, I do not enjoy yours, the freedom to euthanise at-will is not yet legal.

And so, the proliferation of bovine feces abounds, it's source inexhaustable.

Ad hominem, no... sarcasm, per chance...a simple observation, ab-so-frickin'-lutely!:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 01:00 PM
Well that's all fine and good Tony, all sorts of things manifest themselves from good posture, but that's hardly an explanation of ki or its usage via body mechanics. I seriously doubt that good posture was all that Kano and Tomiki saw and wanted to learn from Ueshiba. So please, continue.

Also, I wasn't the one who made the claims about ki being simple body mechanics. So the burden of explaining it is on you.

Nope, as always its the same as religious people who cannot explain there belief in some imaginary god, they just have blind faith, not rational faith which I am very happy to have........ Sorry if that disappoints you, as life usually is sometimes more mundane than people want it to be...... In my experience some or most things never live up to their claims..........
I try to explain with rational thinking and reasoning not something you cannot prove from nowhere as some mystical power....
I would hazard a guess that you may be religious or have tendencies towards the mysterious and unexplained in some way?...........
Or do you believe that everything will be explained given time and science......?

Hellis
12-20-2010, 01:05 PM
Simon:

What do you think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0

Marc Abrams

Only for the chosen ones with their tongues in the right place.

This Benny Hinn video is much better.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/Benny-Hinn-Let-the-Bodies-Hit-t

Benny has his tongue in cheek for this :D

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

mickeygelum
12-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Our dojo is charging about 12 pounds each month for membership and training 3 times a week. You be the judge weather or not this price is unfair.


Pound? What happened to the Kroner?

12 DKK equals $2.11US.:confused:

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 01:10 PM
Simon:

What do you think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0

Marc Abrams

I think the journalist did a very good job at editing this film as to make his explanation sound stupid and fake.

Apart from that, he failed making the knockout. As I said before, this can be countered if you really put your mind into it. So can Aikido waza, which don't make Aikido waza fake.

Dillmann is still a marvellous martial artist, and his knowledge of pressure points and their application should not be disregarded because of failure to project his energy into one who is clearly resisting.

Energy projecting is not a golden gun, and Dillmann never said he could put anyone down with energy projection, but with his finger. That I do not doubt.

RonRagusa
12-20-2010, 01:11 PM
Moreover, the best part of practicing martial arts is that you learn good manners...

The movements of Japanese etiquette and the basic postures of martial arts such as kendo, judo, and aikido correspond...

Etiquette is preparedness. It is the way you show your respect for another person. Budo holds at its core respect for the character and humanity of every individual.

- Kenji Tomiki

From aikidojournal.com article id 430

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 01:12 PM
Pound? What happened to the Kroner?

12 DKK equals $2.11US.:confused:

It was a service to some of the english inhabitants here. ;)

100 kr = 11.43 £

mickeygelum
12-20-2010, 01:22 PM
12 £ equals $18.63 USD...that is a great deal here. The fee here is $65 and upwards, depending on frequency and location.:)

dps
12-20-2010, 01:30 PM
Just want to clarify a couple of things:

1. I'm an atheist, and will remain this for a while.

2. I'm open minded, and refuse to reject things which I have a hard time figuring out.

If you are an atheist,

( a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

then you are not open minded.

2. I'm open minded, and refuse to reject things which I have a hard time figuring out.

Have you figured out God?

dps

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 01:31 PM
12 £ equals $18.63 USD...that is a great deal here. The fee here is $65 and upwards, depending on frequency and location.:)

Yes, I'm certainly not complaining. At Århus Aikikai it is even more favorable, as it is still 100 kr a month, and we can train up to 6 days a week plus Iaido three times a week. But this is also remarkably cheap. :)

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 01:33 PM
If you are an atheist,

( a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

then you are not open minded.

Have you figured out God?

dps

Yes, this makes no sense. You can call me an agnostic.

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 01:39 PM
Nope, as always its the same as religious people who cannot explain there belief in some imaginary god, they just have blind faith, not rational faith which I am very happy to have........ Sorry if that disappoints you, as life usually is sometimes more mundane than people want it to be...... In my experience some or most things never live up to their claims..........
I try to explain with rational thinking and reasoning not something you cannot prove from nowhere as some mystical power....
I would hazard a guess that you may be religious or have tendencies towards the mysterious and unexplained in some way?...........
Or do you believe that everything will be explained given time and science......?

You're funny, Tony. So the fact is, you actually can't explain ki by using simple body mechanics, as you claimed you could. So at least we've gotten that out of the way. :)

You might hazard that guess, but then you'd just be wrong again, like you were when you said you could explain ki using simple body mechanics. :)

Happy trolling Tony!

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 01:44 PM
Only for the chosen ones with their tongues in the right place.

This Benny Hinn video is much better.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/Benny-Hinn-Let-the-Bodies-Hit-t

Benny has his tongue in cheek for this :D

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry:

Funny you bring him up.... I frequently use him as an example of several things. 1) power of suggestion 2) He uses a wave motion when he puts his hand on the person, so the energy wave, rather than push is what they experience. The people being touched attribute this novel sensation to GOD healing them. 3) Even funnier is that he is SO MUCH SMARTER THAN US! He makes millions and millions of dollars on a simple martial arts movement. He just sells it better than we do without ANY tax implication (all in the name of religion) :D :D :D !

I sometimes put on a "skit" at the dojo, where I will touch the students like that so they feel how that type of movement can make a person fall down. I go into my nonsense about how they have been touched by the power from the "church of Aiki" and how they should immediately begin tithing!

I wonder if Dillman learned from him? :D

Marc Abrams

Mark Freeman
12-20-2010, 01:44 PM
Yes, this makes no sense. You can call me an agnostic.

Simon, don't just buckle under so little pressure, you've gone from an atheist to an agnostic over a simple question of logic! I can't imagine a theist being so easily swayed :D

Anyway you can be an open minded atheist, stay here with us, don't join the fence sitters;)

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 01:51 PM
I think the journalist did a very good job at editing this film as to make his explanation sound stupid and fake.

Apart from that, he failed making the knockout. As I said before, this can be countered if you really put your mind into it. So can Aikido waza, which don't make Aikido waza fake.

Dillmann is still a marvellous martial artist, and his knowledge of pressure points and their application should not be disregarded because of failure to project his energy into one who is clearly resisting.

Energy projecting is not a golden gun, and Dillmann never said he could put anyone down with energy projection, but with his finger. That I do not doubt.

Simon:

1) Dillman may know a lot. He certainly knows enough about the power of suggestion to sell his no-touch "knock outs." He and his associates have had their positions "knocked out" by numerous people and organizations. I am not disputing the existence of Ki or one's ability to project Ki. I am disputing Dillman's claims. Excuses are like rectums, in that everyone has one. He seemed to have many....

2) Aikido waza done right will not be countered.

3) I can also put anyone down with a finger put in the right location and have not proven anything.

Marc Abrams

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 01:54 PM
Simon, don't just buckle under so little pressure, you've gone from an atheist to an agnostic over a simple question of logic! I can't imagine a theist being so easily swayed :D

Anyway you can be an open minded atheist, stay here with us, don't join the fence sitters;)

Well, I consider my self to change all the time, so why not? ;)

Anyway I'm not going to start a virtual fight over something as irrelevant that.

But an open minded atheist suits me just fine. Wow, I just went from religious nutcase to atheist to agnostic to open minded atheist in a few minutes. The world is truly not standing still. :cool:

Mark Freeman
12-20-2010, 01:55 PM
2) Aikido waza done right will not be countered.


Ah, therin lies the holy grail!

Mark Freeman
12-20-2010, 01:59 PM
The world is truly not standing still. :cool:

True, but if it ever does, I hope it is when my side is facing the sun, I'd hate to live on the dark side!:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 02:04 PM
You're funny, Tony. So the fact is, you actually can't explain ki by using simple body mechanics, as you claimed you could. So at least we've gotten that out of the way. :)

You might hazard that guess, but then you'd just be wrong again, like you were when you said you could explain ki using simple body mechanics. :)

Happy trolling Tony!

Who's the troll?.... you still haven't explained to me your "ki" and how it make your aikido invincible...... You should deal with someone like Rik Ellis, or any Shodokan aikido player who would destroy your "ki" in seconds...... or any other player come to that.....
I'm still waiting......:hypno:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 02:08 PM
I think the journalist did a very good job at editing this film as to make his explanation sound stupid and fake.

Apart from that, he failed making the knockout. As I said before, this can be countered if you really put your mind into it. So can Aikido waza, which don't make Aikido waza fake.

Dillmann is still a marvellous martial artist, and his knowledge of pressure points and their application should not be disregarded because of failure to project his energy into one who is clearly resisting.

Energy projecting is not a golden gun, and Dillmann never said he could put anyone down with energy projection, but with his finger. That I do not doubt.
:eek:
:hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

Hellis
12-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Henry:

Funny you bring him up.... I frequently use him as an example of several things. 1) power of suggestion 2) He uses a wave motion when he puts his hand on the person, so the energy wave, rather than push is what they experience. The people being touched attribute this novel sensation to GOD healing them. 3) Even funnier is that he is SO MUCH SMARTER THAN US! He makes millions and millions of dollars on a simple martial arts movement. He just sells it better than we do without ANY tax implication (all in the name of religion) :D :D :D !

I sometimes put on a "skit" at the dojo, where I will touch the students like that so they feel how that type of movement can make a person fall down. I go into my nonsense about how they have been touched by the power from the "church of Aiki" and how they should immediately begin tithing!

I wonder if Dillman learned from him? :D

Marc Abrams

Marc

Benny is a class act :straightf and he obviously makes a lot of money...I have had him on my video site for a while now.
With Benny I can laugh at the comedy of it all.

Now with George Dilldo I want to puke.

And they are both much richer than I am........... :confused:

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 02:20 PM
Pound? What happened to the Kroner?

12 DKK equals $2.11US.:confused:

Sounds very fair and good to me.......:)
I don't charge anything for instruction we all share the overhead responsibility or there is no practice.....!!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 02:26 PM
Marc

Benny is a class act :straightf and he obviously makes a lot of money...I have had him on my video site for a while now.
With Benny I can laugh at the comedy of it all.

Now with George Dilldo I want to puke.

And they are both much richer than I am........... :confused:

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Dill do!! Ha Ha ha ha ha aha haaahha :D :D :D :D

Your a card Henry, that brought tears to my eyes!!!!! Your "ki" must be so strong ...... Ha HA HA HA HA AHAAHHH AAA Oh dear....

Hellis
12-20-2010, 02:31 PM
Dill do!! Ha Ha ha ha ha aha haaahha :D :D :D :D

Your a card Henry, that brought tears to my eyes!!!!! Your "ki" must be so strong ...... Ha HA HA HA HA AHAAHHH AAA Oh dear....

Oooooooooooooops you noticed a spelling mistake, sorry about that.

Glad you got a ```buzz``` out of it :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 02:37 PM
Who's the troll?.... you still haven't explained to me your "ki" and how it make your aikido invincible...... You should deal with someone like Rik Ellis, or any Shodokan aikido player who would destroy your "ki" in seconds...... or any other player come to that.....
I'm still waiting......:hypno:

Oh Tony, you're only making it more obvious... You're too busy being internet tough guy to keep up with your own discussions. I've never said anything about what 'ki" can or can't do. I've only asked you to describe it using body mechanics, as you said you could do, but you couldn't. :(

You seem to think that because you've trained hard (giving your personality the benefit of the doubt here) that it gives you license to come around here and degrade what everyone else is doing, despite you really not knowing a damned thing about what everyone else is doing. Do you see the comedy in that? I do, from experience. Not only does that make you a troll, it makes you a fool. So enjoy your time under the bridge, may the sun find you sooner than later. ;)

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 02:42 PM
Marc

Benny is a class act :straightf and he obviously makes a lot of money...I have had him on my video site for a while now.
With Benny I can laugh at the comedy of it all.

Now with George Dilldo I want to puke.

And they are both much richer than I am........... :confused:

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

If you take your spelling of his last name with my link between excuses and rectums, I think that it is safe to say that Dillman is a pain-in-the-ass to people who work hard at trying to honestly demonstrate martial arts ;) !

Henry,

Unfortunately, you and I were brought up to be men with integrity, rather than wealthy, regardless of the cost. That applies 2X in my life- Helping people for a living and teaching martial arts (I guess momma did raise dumb babies :eek: ).

Regards,

marc abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 02:47 PM
Oh Tony, you're only making it more obvious... You're too busy being internet tough guy to keep up with your own discussions. I've never said anything about what 'ki" can or can't do. I've only asked you to describe it using body mechanics, as you said you could do, but you couldn't. :(

You seem to think that because you've trained hard (giving your personality the benefit of the doubt here) that it gives you license to come around here and degrade what everyone else is doing, despite you really not knowing a damned thing about what everyone else is doing. Do you see the comedy in that? I do, from experience. Not only does that make you a troll, it makes you a fool. So enjoy your time under the bridge, may the sun find you sooner than later. ;)

Not degrading just questioning it..... You still haven't explained your "ki" to me........
So who really has the doubts .... I wonder??
I'm not a "tough" guy as you so wrongly put it but a realist who sees life for what it really is..... I bleed and bruise just like the rest of you and have experienced that in real life. I'm not proud of it .... it was either that or a poor young lady police officer possibly kicked to death, now that would have been irresponsible of me to ignore and think of my "ki"........:straightf
Not the only time either...... just been a bit unlucky I suppose..... it has a tendency to come looking for me...... One day the same may happen to you, I hope it doesn't for your sake......

Demetrio Cereijo
12-20-2010, 02:58 PM
It's not that something else is happening. The same thing is happening, two people are having a difficult time lifting one person. What you have shown is the equivalence of two metaphors used to explain the same real event. The physics metaphor is mathematical while the ki metaphor is experiential.

Want a third one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YRxTnAxsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZm4VrjyB1A (a spaniard mentalist)

My question is, when it comes to instructing Aikido students on how to achieve weight underside, which model makes the better teaching tool?

Depends on what do you want to achieve.

PS: another interesting clip
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 03:09 PM
Want a third one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YRxTnAxsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZm4VrjyB1A (a spaniard mentalist)

Depends on what do you want to achieve.

PS: another interesting clip
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

And what you want to believe

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 03:27 PM
Not degrading just questioning it..... You still haven't explained your "ki" to me........
So who really has the doubts .... I wonder??
I'm not a "tough" guy as you so wrongly put it but a realist who sees life for what it really is..... I bleed and bruise just like the rest of you and have experienced that in real life. I'm not proud of it .... it was either that or a poor young lady police officer possibly kicked to death, now that would have been irresponsible of me to ignore and think of my "ki"........:straightf
Not the only time either...... just been a bit unlucky I suppose..... it has a tendency to come looking for me...... One day the same may happen to you, I hope it doesn't for your sake......

ahh, passive aggressive 101, it just keeps getting better Tony.

RonRagusa
12-20-2010, 03:28 PM
Want a third one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YRxTnAxsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZm4VrjyB1A (a spaniard mentalist)

Depends on what do you want to achieve.

PS: another interesting clip
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

Hi Demetrio -

In the first video it's not what she's doing so much as what's being said to the guy trying to lift her. The suggestion has been planted that this time it will be different ("try to lift her"). The dude has been set up to fail and very nicely obliges. Ditto the second guy and second video (though I don't speak Spanish, the gist was fairly obvious). Let's call the third metaphor suggestion and note it as being psychological.

The third video clearly illustrates what I call faith based action at a distance. Now if the guy can replicate the experiment with the little Italian chemist of the Dillman video... :rolleyes:

Best,

Ron

lbb
12-20-2010, 04:48 PM
nothing to do with freedom..... I feel free because I do not believe in such nonsense, as you would have me believe Mary?:hypno: ;) :)

It's a joke, son, a joke...although I guess you had to be there, and now it's not a very funny one. Sigh.

ravenest
12-20-2010, 06:12 PM
I am not sure what you think ` it ` is ?
Here is the link to what `it` really is :straightf
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

OH no! It IS what I thought it 'is' :yuck: . I didnt watch all 8 mins though ... maybe something Aikido-ey happened later?

I used to do something sorta like that, except just with one, not a ribbon but a slightly stretchy cord and a pointed weight (rubber - which later had to be covered with thick foam, "Hey! That rubber thing still HURTS you know!") on one end, the movement was a bit more direct and less fluid ;)

ravenest
12-20-2010, 06:34 PM
Of course there is no magic here. Unraiseable body can be taught to just about anybody. I taught it to my 5 year old daughter shortly after I learnt it myself. It is simply a matter of mind/body co-ordination, relaxation and a correct frame of mind.

I agree with the point that correct body mechanics are central to what makes aikido work, by that I mean, posture, connection to the ground through the centre and a relaxed musculature. However, the importance of the mind cannot be left out of the equation.

I think this is where there the grey area of what 'ki' is, can and can't do. There are those who pooh pooh the whole idea of 'ki' and those who seem to attribute it to everything that is. I don't know what the truth of the whole matter is. For me it provides something for my mind to work with, so if I am instructed to 'extend ki' I take it as an instruction to extend my mind beyond my body. It works for me, so I will keep doing that until something better comes along.

My teacher once asked the class if anyone could explain what 'ki' is and someone put their hand up, so he was invited to share his thoughts with the class. When he had finished, my teacher said "I'm glad you know, because I have no idea what it is...(and he added with a smile and a wink) but I know how to use it!"

Ki cannot be disproven and at the moment we have no way of proving it either, so the discussions will continue...

As for the visiting 'ki' aikido person who couldn't deliver the goods, maybe he was just not very good. I have had visitors who have come from other styles of aikido that are flummoxed by the fact that they can't throw me when they try (they are not used to non resistant following and someone remaining on balance), and the harder they try the worse it gets for them and the potentials for reversals are obvious. In other words, they are not that good either.

Although I am comfortable with the term ki as it provides a frame of reference for my not very bright mind, I have not encountered anything mystical or magical in my aikido practice. Just many things that I have not known how to explain for many years until I could replicate them.

regards,

Mark
Hmmm ... Thats quiet a good way of looking at it IMO. I see it as a metaphor. My most recent teacher doesnt use the word Ki, he just says "extend' or 'extend your energy'.

ravenest
12-20-2010, 06:40 PM
Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.


So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl? This flummoxes me as I have seen it myself. I cant do the unliftable body mysel but I showed this girl how to do it. I held an Aikido session at a festival I was at. First day about 10 people turn up. I (for some reason still unknown to me) get this girl to do this exercise, she is the slightest in the class, and get 2 guys, the biggest. And now, here is the WIERD thing, they get her feet about an inch of the ground but they cant go more, you can see them stuggling and exerting. The girl opens her eyes, seems shocked and up she goes, lifted by the guys effortlessly.

I have no idea awhat is going on with that and I certainly cant do it ... but I was able to instruct her how to do it. :freaky:

ravenest
12-20-2010, 06:53 PM
You are just as delusional as the people in the video .... see if they can actually do it you before producing such crap!!!!
I had this tried on me and nothing happened .... something about me not being receptive or some such bullshit:crazy: :hypno: :eek: :D

Ah, but Tony. you have to learn to attack properly ... like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugI_SBOkh4&NR=1 :D

Anthony Loeppert
12-20-2010, 07:00 PM
So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl?

Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long...

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain :)

Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 07:06 PM
ahh, passive aggressive 101, it just keeps getting better Tony.

As you wish.....

ravenest
12-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Hi Demetrio -

In the first video it's not what she's doing so much as what's being said to the guy trying to lift her. The suggestion has been planted that this time it will be different ("try to lift her"). The dude has been set up to fail and very nicely obliges. Ditto the second guy and second video (though I don't speak Spanish, the gist was fairly obvious). Let's call the third metaphor suggestion and note it as being psychological.

The third video clearly illustrates what I call faith based action at a distance. Now if the guy can replicate the experiment with the little Italian chemist of the Dillman video... :rolleyes:

Best,

Ron
Ha, a fung-fu 'expert' tried that on me. lift my arm ... now try to lift the other. Then spent 7 minutes TRYING to convince me I felt a difference.. When I did the exoeriment with the girl and two guys I said nothing, I nodded and motioned my hands 'up' ie. lift her. They couldnt.

ravenest
12-20-2010, 07:18 PM
Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long...

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain :)

Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.

Yes, Ive done a printout, its a takeaway for sure!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 07:51 PM
Ah, but Tony. you have to learn to attack properly ... like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugI_SBOkh4&NR=1 :D

:freaky: :hypno: :hypno: :crazy: :hypno: :hypno: :rolleyes: :D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 07:57 PM
So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl? This flummoxes me as I have seen it myself. I cant do the unliftable body mysel but I showed this girl how to do it. I held an Aikido session at a festival I was at. First day about 10 people turn up. I (for some reason still unknown to me) get this girl to do this exercise, she is the slightest in the class, and get 2 guys, the biggest. And now, here is the WIERD thing, they get her feet about an inch of the ground but they cant go more, you can see them stuggling and exerting. The girl opens her eyes, seems shocked and up she goes, lifted by the guys effortlessly.

I have no idea awhat is going on with that and I certainly cant do it ... but I was able to instruct her how to do it. :freaky:

Next time hold the "girl" person below the hips and then lift, using your legs to do the lifting!! they will go up believe it, unless they weigh 300 pounds or so....:rolleyes:
Then you might struggle a bit.....

Have done this trick and it only works when one tries to lift from under the armpits, plus all the other tricks that go along with it....:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 08:01 PM
Hmmm ... Thats quiet a good way of looking at it IMO. I see it as a metaphor. My most recent teacher doesnt use the word Ki, he just says "extend' or 'extend your energy'.
I would use the expression, follow through..... using your natural body weight to extend an uke....

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 08:04 PM
It's a joke, son, a joke...although I guess you had to be there, and now it's not a very funny one. Sigh.

Oh sorry, maybe you should take lessons on how to tell jokes using "ki" .....:D

Mary Eastland
12-20-2010, 09:27 PM
Don't you think there is a difference in learning how to have weight underside and tossing around balls of ki?
Mary

gdandscompserv
12-20-2010, 10:09 PM
so who is teaching the methodology

stan
you
;)

Hellis
12-21-2010, 01:07 AM
OH no! It IS what I thought it 'is' :yuck: . I didnt watch all 8 mins though ... maybe something Aikido-ey happened later?

I used to do something sorta like that, except just with one, not a ribbon but a slightly stretchy cord and a pointed weight (rubber - which later had to be covered with thick foam, "Hey! That rubber thing still HURTS you know!") on one end, the movement was a bit more direct and less fluid ;)

Michael

You disappoint me, I was waiting for someone brave enough to watch the video to the end to see what else could possibly happen ?? :) At my age it could be considered a health hazzard :D

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Gorgeous George
12-21-2010, 02:59 AM
Next time hold the "girl" person below the hips and then lift, using your legs to do the lifting!! they will go up believe it, unless they weigh 300 pounds or so....:rolleyes:
Then you might struggle a bit.....

Have done this trick and it only works when one tries to lift from under the armpits, plus all the other tricks that go along with it....:rolleyes:

Surely the purpose of this exercise is to show that by harmonising with another - practicing aikido - we can prevent them from moving us; and that although in any one exercise we might be gripped in a certain place (the wrist, or the lapel, or from behind), somebody adept at aikido can be grabbed in any place and still not be moved/practice aikido?

Hence the tests of this kind I have heard that o'sensei submitted to: one with a renowned sumo wrestler - where he knelt on the ground, and invited the man to push his head in order to move him; and one with Kenshiro Abbe on a train, where he invited him to break his finger - and threw Kenshiro Abbe to the floor.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 04:18 AM
Don't you think there is a difference in learning how to have weight underside and tossing around balls of ki?
Mary

Depends on how much baggage you carry underside kiddo....:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 04:26 AM
Surely the purpose of this exercise is to show that by harmonising with another - practicing aikido - we can prevent them from moving us; and that although in any one exercise we might be gripped in a certain place (the wrist, or the lapel, or from behind), somebody adept at aikido can be grabbed in any place and still not be moved/practice aikido?

Hence the tests of this kind I have heard that o'sensei submitted to: one with a renowned sumo wrestler - where he knelt on the ground, and invited the man to push his head in order to move him; and one with Kenshiro Abbe on a train, where he invited him to break his finger - and threw Kenshiro Abbe to the floor.

A simple matter of bodily isometrics and re diverting the pushing through your own body into the ground....
I get my son to do it to me, who weighs 250 lbs is 6' 2" tall to my
5' 7" and 197 lbs .... the finger one is not as difficult as you would think.....
Tricks, that anyone can do if you learn them....;)

Gorgeous George
12-21-2010, 04:47 AM
A simple matter of bodily isometrics and re diverting the pushing through your own body into the ground....
I get my son to do it to me, who weighs 250 lbs is 6' 2" tall to my
5' 7" and 197 lbs .... the finger one is not as difficult as you would think.....
Tricks, that anyone can do if you learn them....;)

Yeah, I know; but it works, doesn't it? So tricks or not, they are the basis of aikido, and effective.
You might know a counter for an aikido technique - but then there will be an aikido counter, etc.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 04:55 AM
Yeah, I know; but it works, doesn't it? So tricks or not, they are the basis of aikido, and effective.
You might know a counter for an aikido technique - but then there will be an aikido counter, etc.

Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....;)

Gorgeous George
12-21-2010, 05:04 AM
Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....;)

Yes, exactly: they are demonstrations of the abstract principles that underlie aikido - and are demonstrated (or: should be) in order to illustrate this.

Obviously there is no evidence for claims of supernatural causes of these 'powers', and I haven't seen anyone claiming to the contrary here (not that I read a lot of what is said...).

I do recall reading an interview with Koichi Tohei, incidentally, in which he said that, when giving a demonstration one day, and after a night of heavy drinking - still suffering the effects - o'sensei said 'The spirits/gods will not enter you in that state.' - meaning that he wouldn't be able to do aikido due to the lack of spiritual aid.
He could, of course...

sakumeikan
12-21-2010, 05:46 AM
Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....;)

Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .

Dazzler
12-21-2010, 07:38 AM
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .

Good point Joe.

I'd say that at his size Tamura was an excellent example of someone who found an extra dimension of power through his Aikido practice.

Whether others consider this to be Chi / Ki or whatever is up to them but he definitely had "something".

So for me, this "something" is part of what I aspire to in my training and to write it off completely makes little sense...in fact to try and do Aikido without ki...well, you might as well call it something else - Ai do perhaps?

(although personally I'd think of it more as jujitsu...and hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with jujitsu at all - it just isn't Aiki in my view)

Cheers

D

lbb
12-21-2010, 07:47 AM
Oh sorry, maybe you should take lessons on how to tell jokes using "ki" .....:D

And maybe you should keep track of who you're talking to, and lighten up on the emoticons.

This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 08:26 AM
Yes, exactly: they are demonstrations of the abstract principles that underlie aikido - and are demonstrated (or: should be) in order to illustrate this.

Obviously there is no evidence for claims of supernatural causes of these 'powers', and I haven't seen anyone claiming to the contrary here (not that I read a lot of what is said...).

I do recall reading an interview with Koichi Tohei, incidentally, in which he said that, when giving a demonstration one day, and after a night of heavy drinking - still suffering the effects - o'sensei said 'The spirits/gods will not enter you in that state.' - meaning that he wouldn't be able to do aikido due to the lack of spiritual aid.
He could, of course...

I expect he was feeling a lot more relaxed after the effects of the alcohol...... I know I do!!!!!......:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 08:27 AM
And maybe you should keep track of who you're talking to, and lighten up on the emoticons.

This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.

Stay well Mary......;)

Hellis
12-21-2010, 09:01 AM
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .

Hi Joe

I don't doubt for one moment that `Ki` exists in some form. The problem for me, and I suspect many others,is the stupid things that some people do in the name of `Ki`.
That is probably why some people hate Aikido, I also believe that hate is the wrong word, perhaps ``ridicule `` would be more fitting.
Derek Eastman my associate for over 50 years, can, as taught by Nakazono Sensei, sit in a chair with two or three guys who can't push him over, I can't do that :straightf
He also kneels and several guys can't push him over, I can't do that either :straightf
I have no real explanation, what I do know is that he is not breathing through his toes, or demonstrating Ki with ribbons, neither of us can throw people from a distance without touching them.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Mary Eastland
12-21-2010, 09:03 AM
Shuji Maruyama, Sensei was careful in his reference to what we on this thread are calling ki. In my opinion he called what we worked on "development of correct feeling". Practice and testing was done in a cooperative way.
Once correct feeling is established it becomes a reference from where all technique can be applied.
At Berkshire Hills Aikido we train to be mindful, relaxed and to continue the development of correct feeling. Both cooperative ki development and realistic training have a place on our mat.
Mary

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 09:03 AM
Whether one accepts the concept of Ki or adopts the view that everything can be explained through physics in my Aikido career I have met certain Shihan who are/were capable of being able to be immovable,despite the fact that in certain cases the ukes [sometimes more than one ] could not budge /lift the Shihan despite very vigourous efforts. Anyone who ever trained with Tamura Sensei for example , certainly would know what I am referring to.
On the question of Ki in relation to no contact [Takeda Sensei ]/ no touch knock out stuff [George Dillman] as seen on some You tube vids I am a bit more sceptical .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 09:08 AM
Henry,

Looks like another Jack Poole in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefEfolHzjo&feature=related

The guy attending the "knocked out" Guy.....

Tony

Mike Sigman
12-21-2010, 09:14 AM
I don't doubt for one moment that `Ki` exists in some form. The problem for me, and I suspect many others,is the stupid things that some people do in the name of `Ki`.
That is probably why some people hate Aikido, I also believe that hate is the wrong word, perhaps ``ridicule `` would be more fitting.
Derek Eastman my associate for over 50 years, can, as taught by Nakazono Sensei, sit in a chair with two or three guys who can't push him over, I can't do that :straightf
He also kneels and several guys can't push him over, I can't do that either :straightf
I have no real explanation, what I do know is that he is not breathing through his toes, or demonstrating Ki with ribbons, neither of us can throw people from a distance without touching them.
Hi Henry:

I can show you how to do those "ki" tricks in fairly short order, but they're basically just methods of controlling the body and forces in the body and they certainly don't represent much in the way of the sophistication of "ki" skills that can be developed. I personally see "ki" as simply a very old method of explaining how things worked; something like our old western system of humours. In the final analysis, those paradigms weren't sustainable as explanations for what was actually happening, but there was nothing wrong with the phenomena they attempted to explain. Many/most Asian martial-arts styles use the ki/qi paradigm to explain things the body can actually do and often there are people making extravagant claims about ki that are simply baloney, to use the technical term.

However, I don't think "ki" is what causes so much antagonism toward Aikido in the rest of the martial world. Without speculating aloud about why I think Aikido has developed a reputation, particularly in the rest, I simply wanted to say that I don't think it's got a lot to do with "ki" things. For the most part, Aikido people today don't have much knowledge or interest in ki things, so I'd doubt the relationship between ki and how Aikido is viewed.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 09:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjVvhDwFnJk&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Real "ki"............ :straightf

Hellis
12-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Henry,

Looks like another Jack Poole in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefEfolHzjo&feature=related

The guy attending the "knocked out" Guy.....

Tony

That guy should be dressed in red in Walmart.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Hellis
12-21-2010, 10:53 AM
Hi Henry:

I can show you how to do those "ki" tricks in fairly short order, but they're basically just methods of controlling the body and forces in the body and they certainly don't represent much in the way of the sophistication of "ki" skills that can be developed. I personally see "ki" as simply a very old method of explaining how things worked; something like our old western system of humours. In the final analysis, those paradigms weren't sustainable as explanations for what was actually happening, but there was nothing wrong with the phenomena they attempted to explain. Many/most Asian martial-arts styles use the ki/qi paradigm to explain things the body can actually do and often there are people making extravagant claims about ki that are simply baloney, to use the technical term.

However, I don't think "ki" is what causes so much antagonism toward Aikido in the rest of the martial world. Without speculating aloud about why I think Aikido has developed a reputation, particularly in the rest, I simply wanted to say that I don't think it's got a lot to do with "ki" things. For the most part, Aikido people today don't have much knowledge or interest in ki things, so I'd doubt the relationship between ki and how Aikido is viewed.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Hi Mike

Long time !
Now there's a good old English word we don't hear so much of these days "" Baloney "" very descriptive non the less.

Best regards

Henry
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

jonreading
12-21-2010, 12:13 PM
As it relates to the original post, I would say the point of aggravation aikido has with other arts, particularly Japanese arts, boils down to a perceptual problem with the integrity of Aikido. I think some of these problems transcend perception and are real problems within aikido; some of these problems are localized to individual organizations, dojo, or instructors. The vast publication of "bullshido" does not help contain these problems as we all now can view the sheer incompetency of idiots (thank you, YouTube). The problem is that it is a lot easier to find proof of bad aikido than good aikido.

I think aikido is perceived to be a "shortcut" to mastery that bypasses our sister arts, and sometime in a rather derogatory manner. Why train 20 years in judo? "Become an aikido master and throw judo players around like rag dolls." Why train 20 years in karate? "Karate people are limited to their shallow physical training and can never transcend into oneness with the universe." Why train MMA? "Fighters are neaderthals who just like to hit things." We can be pretty elitist sometimes; the fact that some of the people saying these things also happen to be on YouTube doing something stupid doesn't help... Nor does it help the people we deride could kick the crap out of us.

As that argument relates to ki... Well, I think Mike's comments about ki is spot on... Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.

In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...)

sakumeikan
12-21-2010, 12:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

:rolleyes:

Tony,
I would not under pain of death compare this person and his ability??? with the likes of Tamura Sensei and a few others.
Cheers, Joe.

Mike Sigman
12-21-2010, 12:34 PM
We can be pretty elitist sometimes; the fact that some of the people saying these things also happen to be on YouTube doing something stupid doesn't help... Nor does it help the people we deride could kick the crap out of us. Voila' !.... erm, generally speaking. ;)
As that argument relates to ki... Well, I think Mike's comments about ki is spot on... Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.

In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...) I think it was Tohei that asked, one time, about a high-ranking shihan: "Where's his ki?". Point being that ki is by definition a part of Aikido. Granted, I don't know any part of ki that can't be described in terms of modern physics, anatomy, kinesiology, etc., but the skills are difficult to come upon if someone uses normal strength as their base skill. So it's always interesting to me how the term "ki" has, through lack of knowledge about the substance, become synonymous with some far-out esoteric and non-functional aside, in a number of Asian martial-arts. It's sort of like a permutation of Ellis Amdur's "Hidden in Plain Sight" that goes something like "Refusing to look at the obviously important". ;)

FWIW

Mike

sakumeikan
12-21-2010, 12:44 PM
Good point Joe.

I'd say that at his size Tamura was an excellent example of someone who found an extra dimension of power through his Aikido practice.

Whether others consider this to be Chi / Ki or whatever is up to them but he definitely had "something".

So for me, this "something" is part of what I aspire to in my training and to write it off completely makes little sense...in fact to try and do Aikido without ki...well, you might as well call it something else - Ai do perhaps?

(although personally I'd think of it more as jujitsu...and hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with jujitsu at all - it just isn't Aiki in my view)

Cheers

D
Hi Daren ,
Nice to hear from you.My other example of an exceptional Aikidoka was the late great Sekiya Sensei.He was not an exceptionally big built man, of average height, very soft but after establishing contact with you he totally controlled you with virtually no effort on his part. Sekiya Sensei in his training stressed good posture and relaxed shoulders .At the time of meeting him I was a
a bit physical[years of Judo training].Sensei advised me to train as though I was very ill, using minimum strength and see if I could get maximum effectiveness with minimum effort.
I do think that this advice had some bearing on my later Aikido development.At the age of 72 i think Sekiya Sensei's advice
is every bit as pertinent now as it was in mid 70s.
I also was pinned down by Sekiya Sensei with a Kesa Gatame hold and despite my experience/youth I could not budge him.I felt like a building was on top of me.
Did Sekiya Sensei use Ki?He certainly used something.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-21-2010, 01:07 PM
Tony,
I would not under pain of death compare this person and his ability??? with the likes of Tamura Sensei and a few others.
Cheers, Joe.

No, I wouldn't think you would, but goes to prove that there are many nutcases about, where ever you go.....;)

phitruong
12-21-2010, 06:08 PM
Ki is an Eastern term to describe a variety of elements within a primitive world. Its comparison to the Western term humours is (I think) a good comparison. That is not to say that ki does not exist, only that its definition is currently lacking modern science. In the meantime we make ourselves vulnerable to charlatans who abuse this lapse in definition. I defer to those who are better able to define and explain ki to help moderize the concept so we can begin culling out the ficticious employers of ki.

ki isn't fictitious. we asians know exactly what it is. it's the by-product of heavy bean and cabbage intake. i mentioned it many time. you gaijin are very strange. ki isn't some kind of energy, although if you could capture it, it would burn pretty good. how many time do we asian have to tell you folks that ki isn't what you do; it's what you eat. sheesh! my mother complained about my dad ki release all the time, at least once every other hour. :D

personally, i think we should remove the term "ki" out of aikido. we would only need "aido". now that is something everyone can benefits. it work on most folks. it works on judo, karate, kungfu, mma, wwe, aaa, aarp, and what have you. we would even have the manual of all the right techniques for "aido" - kama sutra (although i still can't figure out some of the positions). :D


In the meantime, my practice is to take ki with a grain of salt, much as I would accept "thingamabob", "dohickey" and "Whazzit" as adequate descriptors. ( I can hear it now... "Use your Thingamabob to knock down your partner." What?...)

don't knock the "thingamabob". that's the secret ingredient of my secret aido technique. :)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-22-2010, 02:10 AM
ki isn't fictitious. we asians know exactly what it is. it's the by-product of heavy bean and cabbage intake. i mentioned it many time. you gaijin are very strange. ki isn't some kind of energy, although if you could capture it, it would burn pretty good. how many time do we asian have to tell you folks that ki isn't what you do; it's what you eat. sheesh! my mother complained about my dad ki release all the time, at least once every other hour. :D

personally, i think we should remove the term "ki" out of aikido. we would only need "aido". now that is something everyone can benefits. it work on most folks. it works on judo, karate, kungfu, mma, wwe, aaa, aarp, and what have you. we would even have the manual of all the right techniques for "aido" - kama sutra (although i still can't figure out some of the positions). :D

don't knock the "thingamabob". that's the secret ingredient of my secret aido technique. :)

SSssshh!!! Now you've let the cat out of the bag, I fart so good I levitate on my efforts..........:hypno: :hypno: :D

Marc Abrams
12-22-2010, 07:43 AM
SSssshh!!! Now you've let the cat out of the bag, I fart so good I levitate on my efforts..........:hypno: :hypno: :D

My methane Ki is made powerful by creating the sounds of the Kotodama from hole-down-under :crazy: :hypno: :eek:

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
12-22-2010, 11:21 AM
My methane Ki is made powerful by creating the sounds of the Kotodama from hole-down-under :crazy: :hypno: :eek:

Marc Abrams

That ain't that the black 'ole of Calcutta your refering to is it...? :D

ravenest
12-22-2010, 06:22 PM
Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long...

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain :)

Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.

Interesting article but it doesnt explain how they got her 1 inch of the ground and then couldnt go further (in the case I saw).

ravenest
12-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Michael

You disappoint me, I was waiting for someone brave enough to watch the video to the end to see what else could possibly happen ?? :) At my age it could be considered a health hazzard :D

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Sorry for the dissapointment but using the computer at the public library ... do you realise how long it actually takes to watch 8 mins of vis on that ols computer??? But now you have aroused my curiosity ... when I have time ... whenever that will be ... and it better be worth it ! :D

mickeygelum
12-22-2010, 07:06 PM
This thread was full of fail from the start and it hasn't improved. I'm out.

Wow! 258 post in the first two years it was here....

342 posts in the past two weeks..:rolleyes:

A most enlightning discussion and very diverse opinions, thanks!

Anthony Loeppert
12-22-2010, 08:08 PM
Interesting article but it doesnt explain how they got her 1 inch of the ground and then couldnt go further (in the case I saw).

Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.

Mike Sigman
12-22-2010, 08:21 PM
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.I think the math is correct for that solution to the problem, but the problem can be different than that. For instance, sometimes the demonstration is done with one person being the lifter, sometimes 3 or 4 or more are used to lift, so the vector analysis shifts. It's like the "unbendable arm" demonstration... there are a number of scenarios which prove to be difficult for Uke to bend the arm, but not all of the scenarios relate to the basic situation which, for example, Tohei was pointing at. So a solution can be correct while still not being correct, if you see what I mean. ;)

How would you describe (math or verbally) the situation of "hard to lift" that Tohei shows/demos with one person lifting up on one arm of Tohei's hanging by his side? Surely the principle that Tohei is demonstrating is the same "heavy side down" that the lift by 2 Uke's is attempting to show, so the mathematical implications should be similar/same, right?

Mike Sigman

ravenest
12-22-2010, 09:01 PM
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.

No, it doesnt have to be 'magic'. I still have difficulty nutting it out though. Would it be a subtle change in the set and angle of the arms that redirects the force? And this changes in relation to the lifters as height increases? ... something like that.

This girl must have had some unconcious instinctual response that made it happen that way?

Anyway, a good trick ... as the next day there was about 60 people turning up for Aikido :eek: ....

Anthony Loeppert
12-22-2010, 11:31 PM
How would you describe (math or verbally) the situation of "hard to lift" that Tohei shows/demos with one person lifting up on one arm of Tohei's hanging by his side?


I'm not sure I understand the scenario here. I did a quick search on youtube, on the off chance something might pop to clarify, of "Tohei lift" but nothing came up.

Do you mean there is no lifter on the other side (i.e. one lifter) so there would be no one to push against? Or do you mean, two (or more) lifters but one arm of the "liftee" is kept parallel to the body - not allowing any angle to redirect?

I'm curious what you mean, but I don't guaranty I'll be able to explain.

Mark Freeman
12-23-2010, 05:03 AM
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.

Hi Anthony,

physics and maths can be applied to just about everything that happens in aikido, as there is absolutely no magic in any of it.

Personally, although I am a fan of science and rational explanation, within the dojo I am much more interested in can you do it or can't you do it and if not, how do you?

Why not find someone who can, they can teach you in a matter of minutes (although like most things, can take a while to get to a decent level of competence). All of the unraiseable body exercises (as that's all they are, I dislike the term 'tricks') can be learnt quite quickly. Whether being lifted by 1, 2 or more people, 1 side or both sides, the mind/body co-ordination aim is the same. While physics and maths will be able to adequately describe the body mechanics of these exercises, they will have a harder time describing the mental state of the liftee.

These exercises can get quite complex and harder to describe rationally, but it must be able to be done, as magic is for the story books. For instance (as you mention you've seen), it is possible to be lifted up by 2 lifters, one on either wrist, with your feet a foot or two off the ground. You would think that the lifters would have complete control over the one in the air. Not so, it is possible to direct them, from your lofty vantage point, either forward, backwards, left or right, clockwise or anticlockwise and when you want to come back down to the floor, you can, it's odd to see and it's fun to do.

I'd be searching for how can I get to do that before I search for how do I explain that.

Anyway good luck in your quest.

regards,

Mark

salim
12-23-2010, 02:50 PM
Unrealistic training or training that is not practical for real situations, is always high on the list.

Phil Van Treese
12-23-2010, 03:13 PM
Fear of the unknown. Those who "hate" aikido probably have never studied it. Therefore, they know nothing about it so, rather than "investigate" aikido or even tyry to understand it, it's a lot easier to "hate" it for whatever "reason" they can come up with. "It doesn't work" is what I hear all the time!!! That's garbage because I have used it in Viet Nam. If it didn't "work", I wouldn't be here now!!!!

Mike Sigman
12-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Do you mean there is no lifter on the other side (i.e. one lifter) so there would be no one to push against? Yes. I can't point you offhand to some videos showing the one-arm (his arm) lifting up his one side (I think there may be a picture of it in the book "This is Aikido", IIRC), but it may be somewhere on YouTube. All I'm saying is that it is just a variant of the "unliftable" demonstration and it may point you more accurately at the essence of the down-weighting jin/kokyu. What I'm saying is that while your vector-analysis may be correct for the problem that you've envisioned, you may be slightly off the exact idea of what the trick is supposed to be about. And it's a problem that can be more complex than that, but I'll leave you to figure it out. Some of the old Shioda videos show him doing a variant of the trick which you might find enjoyably enlightening.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Lyle Bogin
12-29-2010, 01:31 AM
I think the fact that so many people involved in martial arts hate aikido speaks to its depth. Haters gonna hate. Imma keep on shinin'!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 05:29 AM
I would like to end this thread and say I'm tired of the bullshit that manifests itself from so called aikidoka that have never been in a confrontation in their lives, or are never likely to, because of their inadequacy to know what is or isn't... They will never know so it will not matter until they are caught out!!...... But still prefer to hide behind the inherent bullshit that manifests itself to this very day,hour and minute.....:hypno: :rolleyes:

memmek10k
01-13-2017, 10:09 PM
Chocolate chip cookies. Who can possibly hate them? :D

I do. :) I like oatmeal and m&m better. :)

lbb
01-16-2017, 10:13 AM
I do. :) I like oatmeal and m&m better. :)

Do you also like brains? Because this is a zombie thread, over 10 years old.