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Guilty Spark
10-08-2006, 06:19 AM
Why do people hate Aikido?



I've wondered this since joining various Internet martial arts message forums. I think the biggest (only in fact) Aikido-related disappointment I've had is seeing how a considerable number of the MA community react to Aikido.



I can't figure out why.

I've come up with a few possible reasons;



1)Icons. Icons such as Sensei Steven Seagal can either motivate beginners or turn people against said MA. Personally I've enjoyed the interviews I've seen of him and videos, others apparently are so turned off by his character or bearing that it carries over into the martial art itself. They attack the martial art THOUGH these icons.



2)Newbies jumping in with both feet which I think is a biggie (guilty of it too). I think in Martial arts, like many other things (especially religion) when someone is exposed to it and it 'clicks' with them, they go a little crazy. Jumping in with both feet they try to expose themselves to as much of the martial art/religion/sport etc.. as possible. Live eat breathe it. This can of course get sickening especially for people surrounding said individual who have to put up with hearing them preach over and over about this new martial art/religion/sport etc. (I've sure I've annoyed a good number of friends and co-workers). Maybe this comes across as just a new fad or something causing people to immediately get a negative opinion about Aikido?



3)Need to justify it. Carrying over from my last point, I think many new Aikidoa rub people the wrong way because facing criticism they feel the need (with second and third hand information) to defend and champion aikido. Considering the antagonists have "experience" bashing aikido the newbies arguments are quickly put down. The new aikidoa then either 'goes on the attack' making enemies (or an ass of themselves) or sucks back a little and learns to pick and choose their battles.



4)Other members having to justify their own choose MA. I get the feeling that many people seem to need reassurance that their chosen martial art does indeed work. At that, they constantly compare their own marital art to other ones. How effective it is against any given situation, how it deals with knife attacks wrestling on the ground kicking multiple opponents etc.. Their afraid to say hey my martial art has a weakness. It's like their so worried about what everyone else is doing and how they stack up that they miss out on the simple enjoyment of leaning and having fun in their own martial art.



5)Spirituality/Mysticism stuff. Because of the day and age we live in, I think religion, spirituality and such are looked upon with a lot of skepticism and doubt.(With good cause IMHO) It's a big your with us or against us attitude in that if someone isn't devoutly religious/spiritual, then they are at the opposite end of the spectrum and immediately become suspicious around anything approaching a spiritual aspect. Their all about the pure fighting/physical aspect. I've found the Aikidoa often somewhere in the middle. (Which is where I surprisingly find myself). We need only look to a few threads here for examples if people against the whole idea of spirituality.
Maybe some aikido schools concentrate too much on the spiritual side and less so on the physical to the point where it makes the aikido taught there in look ineffective and fake?



6)Ignorance. Stemming from my second point (new students trying to explain things) people easily get the wrong idea about Aikido. A new member starts going off about not competing, not using strikes, the art of "peace" etc.. and someone else reads that and takes the faulty facts as gospel then turns around and passes it on. Listening to lower level belts talking about the spirit of aikido. They 9we) usually don't have the whole story so our arguments and facts are a little skewered.



7)The no-competition thing is a biggie I've found. I think a decent number of people practice martial arts with a view (as large or small as i may be) to proving something to themselves or something else. The non-competition thing, especially when explained by a new Aikido, really sets Aikido up to be bashed by other martial arts. Again people watching others rather than just enjoying what their doing.



8)LARPing or live action role playing. I guess this is a term used to describe to a martial art that isn't really effective but more for show? Aikido is an easy target for this I believe because of the Samurai back round, Aikido tradition, etiquette and even using the Hakama. I can't count how many people it seems have a huge beef with Aikido because of the Hakama. Again people so turned of by the spirituality (or in this case tradition) aspect of a martial art that something like wearing a Hakama is automatic grounds for ridicule. Practicing with a bokken or sword? No need to explain that.

On a note about "LARPing", I think everyone who watches a martial art movie or fight (say UFC) is guilty of wanting to 'be that guy' or be like that guy. Maybe even just picturing themselves in that situation. If this wasn't true then people wouldn't flock to a martial arts when it falls in the spotlight, a la Royce Gracie for just one example.



9)Time required to become proficient. I think that's a major turn off for many people, ergo becoming an argument that "Aikido doesn't work". People like instant or near instant results and by all accounts with Aikido won't provide that time of results.



I'll stop there. That's about the main points I can think of off the top of my head writing this. Does anyone have any additional ideas why Aikido takes such a popularity beating by many (other) martial arts? Or perhaps comment on points I may have completely wrong?

mickeygelum
10-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Quite an observation, Grant.....I have almost thirty years of Aikido, and thirty-four Karate training behind me, personally, I have summed it up in one line "No immediate tangible result"....if you kick, punch or strike an individual properly, you have an immediate effect on that individual that is seen, this does not actually require any training.....But to properly affect a balance break with an entering/turning motion and to feel the individuals reaction, requires so much practice......most people do not have the patience or self-discipline to do this.


Miku-san

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-08-2006, 08:19 AM
I don't think anyone on a fairly large number of forums I have visited hates aikido. Most think it is a waste of time, they make fun of Westerners blindly following non-Western traditions and not getting any visible martial ability, and they particularly make fun of the cultish aspect many followers display. And demos, of course, are a great source of pointed ridicule. OK, that's all fair and open, there's no hate involved, and I've met plenty of people who make fun of aikido but don't hate me when I meet them.

crbateman
10-08-2006, 08:48 AM
I think that "hate" may be too strong a word. I know that most of the people I've talked to who "dislike" Aikido simply don't take it seriously, or feel that it lacks the instant gratification or empowerment that a "harder" art can offer. Certainly, if one can practice Aikido diligently for a lifetime, and still feel he has much to learn, it's not an avocation that is going to appeal to the impatient.

Jorge Garcia
10-08-2006, 09:35 AM
Good job Grant,
I think you did an excellent summary of the dislike or "hate " that people have for Aikido. To me, the ignorance factor is the biggest one. That is called sometimes "unconscious incompetence". That means you don't know what you're talking about and you don't know that you don't know. Every human on earth makes private judgments immediately on things they know absolutely nothing about. The thing is that we are so limited in our knowledge but we judge things we have no right to judge. Aikido as an art has been so watered down (and that includes it's spirituality as well), that people are judging a version of a version rather than what it really is. I think it would be shocking for most people to learn that even some of the trusted sources that we judge Aikido by aren't good sources to judge by.
The bottom line is that we can have opinions but we shouldn't have such hard and fast ones, for or against, because as time goes by, we all come into new light and new information that sometimes can cancel out other things we thought we knew. O Sensei said," Do not concern yourself with the right and wrong of others. Do not be calculating or act unnaturally. Keep your mind set on the Art of Peace, and do not criticize other teachers or other traditions." and "Do not criticize other teachers or traditions. Aikido embraces all."
It's OK to evaluate things but to pass a hard and fast judgment is a mistake.

The last thing I would say as to why people hate Aikido is the very fact that Aikido is based on an opposite premise from that which attracts 99 percent of the people that are interested in martial arts. An art of peace and non confrontation, and art opposed to fighting, and art that subdues the ego, and art with no tournaments or competition - these premises aren't what drives people to martial arts. Really, honestly, most people are driven by the allure of becoming invincible, of having power over others and many out of fear and a desire for self protection not understanding there is no such thing. Nothing can give you that unless you are God Himself.

Whether Aikido is true or even possible, the fact remains that what it stands for is in opposition to what almost every person wants in a martial art. That's why they ignore it's teachings. I just finished reading the Spirit of Aikido for the umpteenth time. I came away with this thought. Kisshomaru Ueshiba is opposed to fighting and if you did get attacked,.Kisshomaru Ueshiba would also be opposed to to your wanting to win that fight!
If that summary is in fact true, ( please overlook the ultra simplification of the saying) then that statement would drive millions of inquirers away from Aikido. The techniques of Aikido were created and chosen to reflect an ethic and the training to forge the spirit. To believe that Aikido can be used for something else is a mistake. That's why people are trying to combine it's techniques with other arts in order to achieve their real goal rather than to understand that their idea runs counter to the reason, structure and purpose of the art. If Aikido can't do what they want it to do, maybe they don't know what it is. Of course, that takes us back to point one!

gdandscompserv
10-08-2006, 10:01 AM
They are all jealous. :p

Kevin Wilbanks
10-08-2006, 10:20 AM
I think you have probably already given too much thought and consideration to the opinions of a bunch of people on internet fora. Try to keep in mind what this is and what we're all doing. It's mostly people you know little or nothing about spouting off their opinions and strutting their egos, many of whom are barely literate. It's sitting in a chair and looking at a monitor. It's entertainment. If you start spending too much time with it or taking it too seriously, internet boards - like television - will twist and upset you for no good reason.

markwalsh
10-08-2006, 01:43 PM
Good points all appreciated.

For me, aikido confuses and scares people as it blurs their normal boundaries and framework of operation. It goes against some core things the modern world teaches. I wrote an article on this...people seem to like it, but no one wants to publish it...

deepsoup
10-08-2006, 02:08 PM
Since you're talking about attitudes to aikido on internet forums (fora?), you might also consider that a lot of people posting and claiming (at least) to be aikidoka have a very annoying attitude. They can be, shall we say, a bit sanctimonious. It tends to get up the nose of people who practice other things.

Sean
x

justin
10-08-2006, 02:53 PM
i also find some forum based comments can very easily be misunderstood as well, its very hard to Gage someones rec-action from something they type other than when spoken verbally.

Aristeia
10-08-2006, 03:11 PM
Since you're talking about attitudes to aikido on internet forums (fora?), you might also consider that a lot of people posting and claiming (at least) to be aikidoka have a very annoying attitude. They can be, shall we say, a bit sanctimonious. It tends to get up the nose of people who practice other things.

Sean
xFor example, you sometimes get some aikidoka looking down on arts that compete, claiming that competition is about ego and Aikido is at a higher level and is not ego based. I've seen this attitude many times, both on line and in the dojo.

In actual fact it tends to work the other way - people in competitive arts have been tooled in competition so many times they generally have a good check on their ego, whereas non competitive arts like Aikido allow *some* practitioners to think they're the deadly and develop ego based around skill that's never been tested.

And I think if there's anything that gets up the nose of other martial artists it's that combination of a "my arts so deadly" attitude coupled with a lack of testing the art under full resistance (which I personally don't think is appropriate for Aikido).

Other than people annoyed by that, many others just don't beleive it's effective for employing in physical altercations so don't want to spend time on it.

Robert Rumpf
10-08-2006, 06:48 PM
Why do people hate Aikido?
Show me anything tangible (or intagible) that everyone loves.. :D

sullivanw
10-08-2006, 08:46 PM
Really, honestly, most people are driven by the allure of becoming invincible, of having power over others and many out of fear and a desire for self protection not understanding there is no such thing. Nothing can give you that unless you are God Himself.



Brilliant, Jorge, and so hard to keep in mind from moment to moment. Thanks.

-Will

dps
10-08-2006, 08:58 PM
The techniques of Aikido were created and chosen to reflect an ethic and the training to forge the spirit. To believe that Aikido can be used for something else is a mistake. That's why people are trying to combine it's techniques with other arts in order to achieve their real goal rather than to understand that their idea runs counter to the reason, structure and purpose of the art. If Aikido can't do what they want it to do, maybe they don't know what it is. Of course, that takes us back to point one!I would add that is also why some people are trying to explain what Aikido is by using what they know of other arts and not bothering to learn what Aikido is about. Trying to change Aikido to fit them rather than change themselves to fit Aikido.

CNYMike
10-08-2006, 11:58 PM
Why do people hate Aikido?



I've wondered this since joining various Internet martial arts message forums. I think the biggest (only in fact) Aikido-related disappointment I've had is seeing how a considerable number of the MA community react to Aikido.



One thing to consider is how much do these arguments happen in real life? Yeah if an Aikidoist has a buddy who does Karate or TKD or some other system, they may "discuss" it and/or spar a bit. But people who don't think Aikido is to their liking will vote with their feet and not do it. Same as true for anything.

And just because someone doesn't do Aikido doesn't mean they "hate" it. My Kali instructor isn't interested in formally jumping into Aikido at this time -- he has a lot of irons in the fire with the other things he teaches -- but he doesn't think ill of it at all. When I told him I wanted to do it again, he thought it was great -- and even badgered me into taking it! I've quipped that if he'd been free the first class I went to, he would have dragged me there by my ankles. He's never contradicted that statement. He's laughed at it, but never denied he'd do it.

Now, I admit I like a good rubarb probably more than I should, so yeah, I have mixed it up in a few threads here, too. But I also think it is good to step back and realize you will probably have more such discussions online than in real life, where the martial arts world seems to have broadened into a marketplace of ideas where people can go for the things they want and avoid the things they don't.

CNYMike
10-09-2006, 12:00 AM
Show me anything tangible (or intagible) that everyone loves.. :D

Chocolate chip cookies. Who can possibly hate them? :D

xuzen
10-09-2006, 01:56 AM
Grant,

It is the internet discussion forum. People are free to chime in whatever they want. Some are true others are not. It is up to the reader to discern and discriminate the information presented.

Don't fret or lose too much sleep over it.

Boon.

Pauliina Lievonen
10-09-2006, 04:35 AM
Chocolate chip cookies. Who can possibly hate them? :DChocolate chip cookies make me really really sick... :( :crazy: :yuck:

kvaak
Pauliina

Guilty Spark
10-09-2006, 05:50 AM
Hate was probably too strong a word. While some hate it others dislike it etc.. I think the point I was trying to make came across though.

Kevin, Xu. You're right to each their own. Believe me I'm not getting bent out of shape over people disliking Aikido. I've decided to learn Aikido with a view to eventually getting my black belt so that's what I'm going to do. I was just curious over some of the reasons people disliked it that's all. I always find it interesting to hear someone Else's point of view, especially when it differs drastically from my own. (Hey Neil ;) )

Jorge, you brought up an excellent point, one that I was trying to word but failed heh.
Not everyone does martial arts for the same reason but I think a fair number of the people who do martial arts can be put into the category you mentioned.
Non confrontation, non fighting, non aggression probably isn't what most people think about when they join MA. They join to compete, defend themselves or kick ass. (I'm doing Aikido for the 2nd reason).
I find a lot of people in the military have difficulty giving credit to others. A lot of the times someone will seemingly feel the need to point out how weak someone else is, how strong they are, how hard their training was or how much better their unit/trade is. It seems (to me) like people are worried about not looking tough, competent or maybe someone not recognizing their skill. (Trying to find the right words here). I think that attitude happens in martial arts as well. Often people need to talk about how tough their style/school is because maybe they need to somehow reassure themselves?
I think you hit the nail on the head. A lot of the Aikido theory goes against the common flow of most martial arts maybe?

Sean, that was my second idea/point. Students new to Aikido going overboard and going on and on about it to the point of annoying everyone around them. I've easily found myself annoyed at some peoples aikido is the greatest thing in the world crusade.

Michael Fooks I agree. An aikido elitist attitude is probably just as bad if not worse than some of the attitudes I'm finding/have found towards Aikido. I think the high and mighty attitude does nothing other than turn people even further off/away from Aikido.

ian
10-09-2006, 06:13 AM
I think people criticise all self-defence systems and martial arts as 'unrealistic' - which to some extent is true. I would also say that many martial artists train in a way in which they are reducing rather than improving their self-defence capabilities. Psychology plays an enormous part in self-defence and thinking that sets of techniques helps is eronneous. I think most techniques are extremely effective if the practioner understands how they are applied practically, and that they don't have 'technique overload (i.e. have trained in just one or two until they are instinctive), and they have the psychological ability to apply these under stress.

Also, the 'testing' of martial arts is often considered one-on-one competition, which is completely artificial. Conversely aikido does not have a competitive aspect and generally frowns upon resistance or uncontrolled full-out attacks. Thus all training methods suffer. I think the struggle within martial arts is often to train in something safely which can be applied in reality.

Also, compared to other martial arts, Aikidoka are often physically unfit, suggesting that they don't really take the martial aspect seriously.

P.S. it struck me several years ago that there is some hypocracy within aikido in that often two incongruent positions are held, namely: 1. the techniques are too dangerous to apply in competition 2. aikido can be conducted without hurting the attacker.

I think the prime advantage of what aikido offers is gentle ways to diffuse simple attacks (grabs etc), a framework of fighting which integrates different techniques well, a method of developing instantaneous reaction to a sudden attack, good timing and distance training without severe impact.

Personally I think the violence of an attack is sometimes lost and the ability to strike (which is 80/90% of real aikido according to Ueshiba). Also, people can get technique overload (Ueshiba focused on ikkyo and irimi-nage pretty much).

Esaemann
10-09-2006, 08:40 AM
I'm reminded of the Jerry Seinfeld episode (if anybody watches it) where Jerry's mother says "how can anybody not like you?" to Jerry.

James Davis
10-09-2006, 10:34 AM
Chocolate chip cookies. Who can possibly hate them? :D
People that can't have them? :(

People sometimes decide that something is "stupid" or "not worthwhile" simply because it's too difficult for them to do. Like the poster above stated about lack of instantaneous, tangible results... ;)

Kevin Leavitt
10-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Hate assumes that people actually care enough about it to be emotional and take some action. I don't think that the average person really even gives two cents about aikido.

Brion Toss
10-09-2006, 02:40 PM
Aikido requires diligent, focused effort to get a grip on intellectually, let alone physically. It has sometimes been frustrating to realize that I may never get to a satisfactory point with either aspect, but by and large I'm enjoying the ride. The validity or invalidity of the art will be the same, regardless of opinions found on internet fori or elsewhere, so while I might have the urge to set others straight, it's not really a central issue for me, and would most often be wasted effort, in any event.
Who was it who said, "Do not seek to become like the masters; seek what they sought"? If enough of this do that, the truth of our actions will up the signal-to-noise ratio for those looking at Aikido from the outside.

Erick Mead
10-09-2006, 03:08 PM
Thus all training methods suffer. I think the struggle within martial arts is often to train in something safely which can be applied in reality. What are you training for? What is real? Is a kick or punch delivered with sudden deceleration at impact "real"? Is training for full speed strikes with padding or head gear "real" ? Is training for hand arts in a gun culture "real"? Is UFC, where disabling moves are still impermissible, "real"? Is anything other than full out gladiatorial edged weapon combat "real"? [Hint: even gladiatorial combat was not "real" despite its often deadly brutality.]

[The sarcasm is directed at those who often raise the points you dutifully report.]

All training is artificial. That is the point of training in any art that deals intentionally in situations involving a strong possibility of death or injury. The question is where does one compromise and what are the costs versus benefit for the trade-off in the progress of trainign in the art.

Aikido choses to sacrifice competitive or acquisitive aggression. But disposing of that aspect of aggression we actually increase the development of a more powerful, and too often overlooked type -- protective aggression.

By doing so we experience full range of motion and dynamics of body motion in places and trajectories that done competitively would inevitably injure or wound one or the other. We gain sensitivity to our partner's movements that might be blinded by our own blaze of fearful anticipation.
Also, compared to other martial arts, Aikidoka are often physically unfit, suggesting that they don't really take the martial aspect seriously. How dare the pathetic weaklings protect themselves? :sorry: We are not training the Praetorian Guard or the Immortals here.
P.S. it struck me several years ago that there is some hypocracy within aikido in that often two incongruent positions are held, namely: 1. the techniques are too dangerous to apply in competition 2. aikido can be conducted without hurting the attacker. 1. Correct. 2. A teacher once told me that the mistakes in aikido can be more dangerous than the techniques. Having taken a few ukemi for a number of insensitive non-hulkish beginners, I can attest that this is very much correct, (and my ukemi very much improved as a result, thank you). Every training partner, good, bad or indiffernt of talent -- is thus equally my teacher in their respective range of movements and responses that human beings "really" engage in.
I think the prime advantage of what aikido offers is gentle ways to diffuse simple attacks (grabs etc), a framework of fighting which integrates different techniques well, a method of developing instantaneous reaction to a sudden attack, good timing and distance training without severe impact. Sounds pretty good to me. Do we need more? Thermonuclear weapons? Uzi's? Pointed sticks? (Wait -- we have those ... )

Guilty Spark
10-09-2006, 09:07 PM
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Also, compared to other martial arts, Aikidoka are often physically unfit, suggesting that they don't really take the martial aspect seriously.
How dare the pathetic weaklings protect themselves? We are not training the Praetorian Guard or the Immortals here.

I've heard this unfit student thing before but I've never really seen it. In my (maybe limited limited) exposure to other schools the students all looked fit. A considerable number of the Aikidoa I've spoke with/met (my sensei and his included) are ex military. At 185lbs-190lbs at the time I tried to resist my sense's sensei during a kenshu (sp?) as hard as I could. I'm sure I was taller and had some weight on him.There was no way I was letting another military guy show me up :) He (gently) threw me around as if I wasn't resisting in the slightest. All the guys from his class were fit as well. In the pictures I've seen I haven't come across anyone who's been grossly unfit/over weight. Are they just camera shy? Not invited on kenshu's?
I find it a little difficult to believe that with all of Aikidos flipping rolling jumping and other physical activities it would be a beacon for lazy overweight unfit people to flock to.

xuzen
10-10-2006, 02:02 AM
Grant,

I just saw your name in Bullshido.com (GulitySpark). I can assume you get that "why people hate aikido" feeling from that site. Ha ha ha ha ha.....

That site is a no go if you are not into MMA/Combat sport. There are so many aikido bashing; it is their culture and hive mentality.

Some of their criticisms are true; hence improve ourselves. Some are myths sprouted by MMA fanboys who has never actually tried aikido. Ignore them.

Boon.

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 05:48 AM
The people I know who "hate" aikido usually do so because of so many noobies who swear up and down that they WILL become invincible by training in aikido. The fact that most of these noobs will quit or learn that is not the case has no bearinging on their decision that the opinion of these noobs is the opinion of all aikidoka.

Al Williams
10-10-2006, 06:02 AM
The people that i have met that look down on aikido are usally from MAs that have competition. Ego soothing displays are all well and good. They don't determine the effectivness of a MA.
Those miss-informed noobies are a problem. I know it works, you know it works, if a person doesn't want to believe- they are the poorer.

deepsoup
10-10-2006, 06:26 AM
The people that i have met that look down on aikido are usally from MAs that have competition. Ego soothing displays are all well and good. They don't determine the effectivness of a MA.
Here's a good example of that 'holier than thou' sanctimonious attitude I mentioned earlier.

Al Williams
10-10-2006, 07:27 AM
Not 'holier than thou' I don't think. Just my experience. I see the value of competition- i played comp sport for many years. I may be wrong- it may be becasue we wear skirts (",)

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 08:48 AM
The people that i have met that look down on aikido are usally from MAs that have competition. Ego soothing displays are all well and good. They don't determine the effectivness of a MA.
Those miss-informed noobies are a problem. I know it works, you know it works, if a person doesn't want to believe- they are the poorer.

Until I have a nice line of peasants to kill over and over competition is the best test I have to make sure I can actually do what I train to do. However I do not think that it is the fact that aikido has limited or no competition that causes the majority of people in arts that have competition to talk down on it (although I'm sure it is a factor). I would say the problem stems from people in arts with no competition making statements about competition. I hear "That wouldn't work on the street" from non-competitive martial artists, way way way more then I hear "That wouldn't work on the street" from competitive martial artists. The fact that there is so much bad information being spread has caused many competition oriented martial artists to just blindly distrust any art that does not have full contact MMA type sparing. I personally feel this is a bad thing because it leads to isolation. Isolation is always bad. Isolation is what has caused a lot of the bad things in martial arts. Isolation has created guys who can point a finger at their student from 30 feet away and make him do a backflip, Isolation has caused people to claim pinching a leg can save you from a choke, or that you can eye gouge your way out of the mount. It only works because everyone in their isolated world thinks just like them. Isolation in competition based martial arts will cause them to be less effective as everyone starts to learn exactly the same techniques, concepts, strategys, etc and good ideas get pushed out and new ideas are never tested. This is why I do not discount any martial art. I simply discount techniques that do not work on me in a sparing enviroment.

happysod
10-10-2006, 09:04 AM
I simply discount techniques that do not work on me in a sparing enviroment Don, generally like your posts as they're understandable by even those idiots such as myself, but this small bit left me with a quick question - have you ever been exposed to techniques which didn't work in the sparring environment but which you looked into further because you felt the fault was that of the practitioner rather than the technique?

Back on topic - why hate aikido? Why not, seems a pretty safe thing to do - the guys who are good won't attack you as it's against their ethos and the guys who are crap can't hurt you - win win scenario t'would seem. Anyway, I agree with the "hate the hakama" vibe, but what they're missing is that the non-hakama wearers can only loath and dislike hakama, you have to wear them for a few years to truly build up a good dose of hatred against them...

Guilty Spark
10-10-2006, 09:33 AM
Enjoyed the feedback so far thank you.

Xu (Boon?) Bullshido is one of the places I was speaking about with a large hate on for Aikido though I've posted at a few other sites with people sharing the same opinion. (Just not a fan of giving a site negative publicity).

Bullshido is probably the leader though :) There are some kids on there who jump on the hate aikido band wagon just because they want to fit in with everyone else however there are some posters there who have taken a few years of Aikido and quit. Many of which suggest it's a waste of time. I admit I'm interested in hearing why these "ex-Aikidoa" quit and what their feelings are towards it. Maybe theirs something to learn from it, maybe not.

Don I pretty much agree with you that competition or 'aliveness/resistance training' (whatever the word is) is a good way to validate whether or not what you're learning will work on the street. I still think competition falls short in some ways as such there are still rules to abide by where 'on the street' anything goes. Still, it's a good start. Between you and Kevin I've a big interest in exposing myself to BJJ. Kevin brought up a lot of good points on it a while back.

Still, I think a shortcoming with many martial arts is that people just can't accept that their different approaches towards some of the same goals.

Too many people get hung up on aikido NOT competing. Martial arts HAVE to work in the street or in a ring etc..
I figure it's just like art, say painting. Some people paint to sell their pictures or be known as a painter, some paint because they simply love to and might never let on that they paint. Hope that makes sense?

Cyrijl
10-10-2006, 09:59 AM
Too many people get hung up on aikido NOT competing. Martial arts HAVE to work in the street or in a ring etc..
I figure it's just like art, say painting. Some people paint to sell their pictures or be known as a painter, some paint because they simply love to and might never let on that they paint. Hope that makes sense?

Then call it dancing not a 'martial' art.

At any rate, over at that other forum, people bash aikido not because of the art, but because of the people and the lack of real resistance training. Having been a member there for quite a few years now, the overwhelming critiques are of the people who feel they are too deadly to train with full resistance. They make outrageous claims but never want to back it up. You do not see many people criticizing on the mechanics of aikido, just the antics

mut
10-10-2006, 10:31 AM
I think that "hate" may be too strong a word. I know that most of the people I've talked to who "dislike" Aikido simply don't take it seriously, or feel that it lacks the instant gratification or empowerment that a "harder" art can offer. Certainly, if one can practice Aikido diligently for a lifetime, and still feel he has much to learn, it's not an avocation that is going to appeal to the impatient.
i dont believe there is a harder art or softer art, i think what people fail to understand is aikido is niether hard nor soft, aikido is aikido, its how the individual trains that makes it hard or soft, and you must train full on sometimes and sometimes soft, you need both the powers of fire and water, in aikido you can still attack full on, but without aggression or the intent to defeat. i think what sets aikido up for ridicule most is some aikidokas translation on harmony, they missunderstand harmony and try to be all love and joy with the attacker, instead of harmonising with the energy of the attack, wich unfortunatly turns aikido into ballet school and makes it look fake and soft, wich at that point it has become, limitation human understanding, there again im probably wrong im still trying to understand to. :ai:

ian
10-10-2006, 10:45 AM
Yeh, pretty much agree with you Erik. My point about physical fitness is, that this is one of the easiest ways to improve your chances in fight situations (helps to cope with adrenalin dump, blood loss, as well as enabling you to prolong your own physical aggression) - yet so many aikidoka don't keep fit? You can spend 3 years, 3 nights a week doing aikido yet it only takes about 6 weeks to get to a reasonable level of fitness. I understand that not everyone is doing it for self-defence, but for me the martial aspect is the focus of aikido and without it, we may as well be doing dancing techniques. I don't think anyone would deny that Ueshiba was physically powerful and would train intensively (to the point of collapse according to Stevens biography of him)

P.S. Don - really liked your post. We all (as martial artists) full of s**t. We need to constantly question ourselves and reassess our goals to get closer to real martial ability. We also have to face the sad truth that ANYONE can be taken out by anyone else given the right opportunity - we just want to improve our chances a little.

In fact, I've wondered if MMA competitions will end up with a type of 'red queen' scenario where someone does well with certain techniques, so everyone copies, but then someone develops another technique, then everyone copies, only to realise this was a technique which was rejected several years before as ineffective. Sometimes you just have to have the balls to kick-arse and the techniques become secondary.

Basically I welcome (but not promote!) real fight situations as a way to assess the training I've been doing (luckily I've not been seriously injured yet) :uch:

ian
10-10-2006, 11:00 AM
P.S. I think sometimes we are too hard on ourselves. There are many people learning kata in which they feel they have learnt to destroy someone by tearing their rib-cage off. To a large extent we do actually do what we intend to do in the street, and if the ukes are good, the attacks are also pretty sincere. I bash aikido a fair bit myself (because I think striking arts have more immediate effectiveness, and I feel the ability to strike (esp. vital points) is intrinsic to aikido but usually overlooked) . However the training method has some really excellent advantages. I'm happy to say that I've used aikido many times succesfully in reality, and where I feel something has not quite gone well, I've learnt from it and altered the way I think about my training, rather than what I actually do). So much of real combat is psychological anyway.

Nick Simpson
10-10-2006, 11:11 AM
Great thread Grant, I think you nailed it on the head straight away!

People spend far too much time worrying about others perceptions. Let them spend their time hating/cussing out, and just enjoy what you do. You'll never convince an idiot he's wrong, he'll just bring you down to his level ;)

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 11:31 AM
Have you ever been exposed to techniques which didn't work in the sparring environment but which you looked into further because you felt the fault was that of the practitioner rather than the technique?

I think my idea of good technique has changed as I train. When I first started bjj I would try all sorts of movements I had been told were very effective. They didn't work. I discounted them. However as I gain skill I have found a lot of these movements are working for me now. So I have learned not to discount a technique based on skill, but on the merits of the technique and how it performs in sparing. This means I will try it out, if it doesn't work, I will put it on the back burner. Later I will come across a movement that is similar and bring out that old technique again and give it a good try. However, if a guy has man years in his art, and he can't get his techniques to work on me, I'm going to probably discount them as too complicated and focus on my basics.

I spend a good deal of time on bullshido and I do not think there is aikido hatred there. I think there is aikido dismissal. Most aikido posts tend to be of the "My sensei can shoot fire out of his fingers with his ki", or "This is the real aikido", or "I could kill you if we fought without any rules" variety. So the moment I see an aikido thread on bullshido I just assume the poster has no idea what he is talking about, and that the topic will yield no interesting conversation at all. This is also true with wing chun. I think the problem stems from a huge mystical background around the art. A lot of young noobies get very excited and develop hero worship and sometimes an almost cult like following of their teacher, founder, own perceived ablities, or art. So they go on the internet and want to validate their feelings and share their perceived wisdom. I know cause I was one of them :-). The best part about sport training was that I quickly learned how little I knew the moment I got into a sparing situation. Now of course I preach on about 'aliveness', honesty to yourself and others, and the need to test yourself physically and mentally every chance you get. This is also not to say that there are not bjj guys who have a cult like worshiping of the gracies. I have met guys who really think that with bjj they are invincible. Fortuantly you can usually talk those guys into a MMA event and show them the error of their way.

Of course a 3rd aspect of this perceived hatred is just plain old childish rivalry. The gracies said that bjj was the greatest art in the world. This of course got everyone upset and they made their claims that they could defeat a gracie on the street and bjj wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Rivialry has existed from the first moment there were 2 people alive competing for attention. You love your art, you are not going to let anyone tell you it sucks. The moment you defend your art you are telling the ego infested people that their art sucks and yours is best (even if you never say it like that). This of course turns into a verbal chess match that can never be resolved. The sad fact is very few of these idiots who engage in such pointless conversation ever realize that it is the person, not the art that makes a great fighter. The art just helps that person become an even better fighter. Even more so, it is not so much what you train, it is how you train. What you train is secondary to the training method. Of course that is an entirely different topic that should not be covered here. But I think if more people realized this, there would be less people out there claiming their art is greater then any other art.

Guilty Spark
10-10-2006, 12:20 PM
Joseph,
Then call it dancing not a 'martial' art.
Why? Because you can't "enjoy" a martial art for the simple sake of learning something? It needs to be validated?
What about "martial arts" where you learn horsebackriding/horsemanship? Throwing shuriken daggers or darts. Spear fighting, sword fighting. Archery. Iaido. I think even swimming was considered a martial art or martial training wasn't it?
I think you'll find the mentioned examples a little hard to 'use on the street'. Are they not martial arts? If not what are they exactly?

Most aikido posts tend to be of the "My sensei can shoot fire out of his fingers with his ki", or "This is the real aikido", or "I could kill you if we fought without any rules"
Haven't been there as long as you my friend but I've never really seen these comments. Might have seen a few posts regarding "real" aikido this and that but the first? Never seen it. The third maybe by someone BRAND new to aikido who has bought into what they've picked up from others. With few exceptions I'd say Aikidoa there, despite the enviroment, are quite mature posters.

Nick Simpson
10-10-2006, 12:25 PM
I think even swimming was considered a martial art or martial training wasn't it?

Yep, though the name escapes me at the moment.

Kevin Leavitt
10-10-2006, 12:39 PM
Erick Mead wrote:

By doing so we experience full range of motion and dynamics of body motion in places and trajectories that done competitively would inevitably injure or wound one or the other. We gain sensitivity to our partner's movements that might be blinded by our own blaze of fearful anticipation.

I am tracking on your post and understand your intent. You must be careful though not to assume by adopting the methodology of aikido that it means that arts that practice full speed and fairly balistic cannot accomplish these things in there methodology...because you can train full speed and in a "live" fully resistive manner and do these things as well.

If aikido gets a bad rap, it is because many in the art are deluded in thinking that they are accomplishing something that others cannot and that aikidoka cannot demonstrate adequately when facing a fully resistive opponent.

Not implying that you are necessarily saying this Erick...but to others that may be less indoctrinated in martial arts, be careful about the assumptions you make concerning aikido and other martial arts.

Aikido is very good at communicating and conveying the stated goals of aikido by the founder and his successors, the whole "dissing" aikido thing comes into play when we have those that try to project their personal desires, goals, and fantasies onto the art.

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 12:42 PM
Haven't been there as long as you my friend but I've never really seen these comments. Might have seen a few posts regarding "real" aikido this and that but the first? Never seen it. The third maybe by someone BRAND new to aikido who has bought into what they've picked up from others. With few exceptions I'd say Aikidoa there, despite the enviroment, are quite mature posters.

That's what I'm saying. Mature posters and mature martial artists do not talk crap about other arts, do not boast about their abilities, and they generally have good stuff to say. The problem is all the noobs. If you want some fun do some searches on bullshido for no touch knock outs, ki energy, causing cancer with chi, chi/ki throws, ki/chi energy shields, too deadly for the ring, why do you hate aikido, Aikido sucks, real aikido, etc. You will see a lot of people claiming to be aikidoka making crazy statements. It is these people that have caused bullshido to basically discount any post that contains the word aikido or wing chun. Basically if you make a post about either of those two arts chances are it will just become a troll post. It is not that they hate aikido. They just hate talking to people who claim to have the real aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
10-10-2006, 12:55 PM
There are some good guys on Bullshido. Also a bunch of young, stupid, ignorant, overly enthusiastic wannabees, and some guys with very limited perspective on Martial arts as well. Personally I have never had a problem with Bullshido and have gone on there and defended aikido successfully as well. No different than Aikiweb...we are just a little more polite.

What I like about Bullshido is that you get an honest answer or an honest opinion about where you stand in the food chain. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Bullshido followers have a different view on things than the average aikidoka. Unfortunately many aikidoka, usually the noobs play right into there hands and serve to fuel the fire that makes the young bullshidoka feel special.

Again, goes back to the whole projecting on to aikido what someone would like aikido to be, not what it is.

Getting my ass kicked pretty good by some young, unskilled infantry soldiers a few years ago with my "solid" TMA background proved to be the turning point to me that there was more to martial arts than TMA, internal arts or feeling good about myself, blending, and all that stuff.

Conversely, I have also learned that TMA has much to offer in ways that the "so-called" live, fully resistive training does not. The best sensei I have seen can equally walk both sides of the fence without turning their tails and whining about how some young kid on bullshido made them cry in a post.

If you care about your training, or you really value being a well rounded martial artist, I would emplore you to seek out the guys on bullshido and gain there respect as an aikidoka by taking the time to engage them on there terms, be successful, and then demonstrate to them why it is important to train in aikido.....

That is what I am trying to do, and so far, even with my lowly abilities in the art of aikido, I feel I have made some ground....at least I don't feel that I have to whine about this very topic any more as I understand both sides of the fence a little better than I did a couple of years ago and can hold my own in respectfully in a fully resistive environment and an aikido dojo.

It has also served to be humbling as it shows me just how expansive the road to knowledge is, how little I actually know, and how much I may never really learn!

Erick Mead
10-10-2006, 03:32 PM
You must be careful though not to assume by adopting the methodology of aikido that it means that arts that practice full speed and fairly balistic cannot accomplish these things in there methodology...because you can train full speed and in a "live" fully resistive manner and do these things as well. All training compromises something. For that matter, so do different tactical requirements of ground in actual combat. It is the flexibility and sensitivity of that adaptation that drew me to aikido, and which keeps me in it, since nimbleness matters more in actual confrontation than actual force or speed... This is true physically, it is true intellectually, and that aspect of aiki I get to practice very single day.
If aikido gets a bad rap, it is because many in the art are deluded in thinking that they are accomplishing something that others cannot ... I imagine myself as not being willfully deluded -- and yet -- accidental delusion does happen with alarming frequency ... ... and that aikidoka cannot demonstrate adequately when facing a fully resistive opponent. Which presumes there is something to resist. I will not belabor my peculiar view on why there is not necessarily anything to resist in the classical sense, and whay aikido may actually be unique in that regard, not in its use of such principles, which can be found in spots of other arts, but in the depth of its commitment to them.
... be careful about the assumptions you make concerning aikido and other martial arts. A due caution, but I have not strayed. Optimality is the training goal in all circumstances, the question is what is one optimizing. All dimensions of action cannot be optimized, and some dimensions can never maximized simultaneously.
Aikido is very good at communicating and conveying the stated goals of aikido by the founder and his successors, the whole "dissing" aikido thing comes into play when we have those that try to project their personal desires, goals, and fantasies onto the art. What I do believe, from my own experience and arc of training, and the authoritative support of O-Sensei's views on this same contention, is that Aikido is actually superior in training for "protective aggression" -- as distinguished from "competitive" "acquisitive" or "territorial" aggression. O-Sensie stated this as a "spirit of loving protection."

To me all three of these other differing tendencies in aggressive modes shed some light on why aikido is misunderstood in both its goal and method of training. Some people try to make aikido out as "non-aggressive," but I do not think that this is so. Too many senior instructors have routinely disabused me of any lingering delusion on this point.

Competitive aggression just about speaks for itself. You engage to one-up the other guy, whether in friendly or unfriendly contest. It is personal in nature, even when the only person you are competing against is your former self.

Competitive aggression is not bad, but it is comparative, and thus it divides our mind into two parts, one concerned with our own performance and the other concerned with the performance of the competitor. This is one problem -- but there is also the trap in wait for the unwary ego -- not all succumb to it, but it is an inviting path.

Acquisitive aggression is not personal but object-oriented and possessive. It may be for tangibles -- money, beer, women; or intangibles -- fame, glory, braggadocio, or honor (narrowly concieved).

It also is not bad, but necessary to get the things that make life possible. But it also divides the mind, by maintaining a distinction between the process of acquisition and and the objective of possession. It has a tendency to negate the personal, and in this sense is, in humane terms, perhaps, more problematic than competition in its typical pitfalls.

Territorial aggression is defensive aggression (else it would be acquisitive), and typically reactive. Like the other two, it has a salutary function, but it also divides the mind in concern over what is possessed now and what may be lost later. It tends to be the most easily brutalizing form of aggression as the prospect of loss is an invitation to fear, and fear is the least humane of all human motivations.

All three of these forms of aggression lack a certain quality of mind that I would describe as serene. It is the attitude of suigetsu (moon-in-water) and the naturalness and seeming inevitability of aiki movement when done properly. That frame of mind does not develop optimally in a competitive, acquisitive or territorial environment.

Protective aggression is different from these other three (and there may be more forms, I have not attempted to be exhaustive of the point.)

Protective aggression is the motivational basis for bushido's principle of disregard of one's own life in battle, and the most universally accessible form of aggression that can support that potentially totalizing degree of single-minded commitment in an engagement.
The other three forms all hold something back, by their nature, even at high levels of performance. The film "Gattaca" bears watching for a potentially different form of totalizing motivation, but it also exhibits a surreptitiously aggressive spirit of "loving protection" -- if you view the issue in that film as competition, or acquisition in any sense, you will have missed the point quite widely.

Training for that type of protective commitment reaches toward that serenity of mind that seems integral to budo at the highest levels, and which I feel that aikido optimizes in its mode of training. This is not to say that other forms of training and motivation cannot end up in the same place, nor that they they may not be aimed at the same ultimate goal, but in doing so they are, in some sense, transcending the elements of aggression inherent in these other modes of training, whereas aikido's mode of training is progressively perfected toward that end.

Them's my thoughts.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

statisticool
10-10-2006, 04:38 PM
Why do people hate Aikido?


I think a small pocket of people, mostly anonymous in internet troll pits, dislike aikido (or claim to for trolling) because they are highly intimidated by a doctrine of peace in the martial arts, and suffer cognitive dissonance from the fact that people don't have to be into shiny belts and trophies to be able to use their martial arts effectively in real life situations.

Aristeia
10-10-2006, 04:41 PM
Not 'holier than thou' I don't think. Just my experience. I see the value of competition- i played comp sport for many years. I may be wrong- it may be becasue we wear skirts (",)In my experience comptettion based arts give the ego more of a battering than the converse.

Aristeia
10-10-2006, 04:47 PM
I think a small pocket of people, mostly anonymous in internet troll pits, dislike aikido (or claim to for trolling) because they are highly intimidated by a doctrine of peace in the martial arts, and suffer cognitive dissonance from the fact that people don't have to be into shiny belts and trophies to be able to use their martial arts effectively in real life situations.why would that intimidate them?

deepsoup
10-10-2006, 04:49 PM
In my experience comptettion based arts give the ego more of a battering than the converse.
I wouldn't describe it as an "ego battering" exactly, but a reality check certainly, I agree.

Aristeia
10-10-2006, 04:54 PM
however there are some posters there who have taken a few years of Aikido and quit. Many of which suggest it's a waste of time. I admit I'm interested in hearing why these "ex-Aikidoa" quit and what their feelings are towards it. Maybe theirs something to learn from it, maybe not. well you can probably put me in that boat. I ceased formally training in Aikido at the start of this year to concentrate on BJJ. The reason? Basically time. If I won the lotto tomorrow and didn't have to work a job I'd go back to Aikido most likely (as well as starting some other stuff).

I just felt I was getting more out of BJJ and had further to go there so that's where I decided to put my time. Which isn't to say I felt I knew everything about aikido by a long stretch. But I found the BJJ environment refreashing. I enjoy the sparring. I particularly enjoy taking that technique you've learned low res=istance and going on that journey to make it work in sparring. That path is not one you get to walk in Aikido.

Having said that, I still think Aikido is a great art. I'll still defend it at places like Bullshido and RMA. And I'll likely get back on an Aikido mat in later life.

But defending it on places like Bullshido has given me some insight into what you're talking about. I find if your defense is honest and realistic it's pretty well received. In otherwords if you're up front about what Aikido is good for, and not good for, the limitations of the training method, but also the rationale for it etc most people will give you a "fair enough". As some of the others have said it's only when poeple come on with the attitude of "Aikido is the most sophisticated art - it's superior" and a string of excuses as to why it doesn't cover certain things (like groundfighting) instead of just saying "meh, that's not what it's for" then yeah, then you have a pretty hard time.

CitoMaramba
10-10-2006, 05:25 PM
I think a small pocket of people, mostly anonymous in internet troll pits, dislike aikido (or claim to for trolling) because they are highly intimidated by a doctrine of peace in the martial arts, and suffer cognitive dissonance from the fact that people don't have to be into shiny belts and trophies to be able to use their martial arts effectively in real life situations.
Hmm...
Sample size? p value?
Just kidding! :D

jason jordan
10-10-2006, 06:45 PM
I struggle many times trying not to post on forums like bushido or any of the many many forums there are (including this one),

because I think that debating the issue of whether or not Aikido works or doesn't work or "Why one hates Aikido" to be a debate that shows a simple lack of understanding.

(Please... I mean no offense to anyone), but all martial arts have holes, flaws, and "weakness" I am learning BJJ (no I'm not an expert or even close) but I see many weakness that i have been able to exploit with Aikido techniques.

I rank in karate disciplines as well as Aikido and I see weakness.
My point is simply this. When are we as martial artist going to realize that the only true weakness in any art is us the martial artist?

The art itself has nothing to do with anything. It has everything to do with how well "We" as martial artist can adapt to the situation.

If our training is weak than we will be weak, if our training focuses on only a limited amount of pre-arranged attacks, maneuvers etc. etc. then we will be limited.

To me these topics give me a possible indication that martial artist "Aikidoka" in particular may not be thinking. They are learning techniques but never asking or experimenting with situations that could arise.

Maybe!? there is a difference between Martial artist, and martial practitioners? Don't mean to sound like Confusious says, and these are just my opinions...

Train hard people
Jjo

Al Williams
10-10-2006, 07:18 PM
To me these topics give me a possible indication that martial artist "Aikidoka" in particular may not be thinking. They are learning techniques but never asking or experimenting with situations that could arise.

This is a point that needs attention. I agreee that some aikido schools are very static and almost totaly kata like. There are however many schools, including my own, that work hard to have relevant, dynamic and realistic training.

I work as a police officer, sensei as a prison offficer. We both known the importance of realistic and experimental training.

statisticool
10-10-2006, 08:08 PM
Hmm...
Sample size? p value?
Just kidding! :D

Just my personal belief from what I've encountered; biased, limited, sample, only of descriptive value to me. :)

And what I've heard from others with more experience.

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 08:44 PM
I struggle many times trying not to post on forums like bushido or any of the many many forums there are (including this one),

because I think that debating the issue of whether or not Aikido works or doesn't work or "Why one hates Aikido" to be a debate that shows a simple lack of understanding.

(Please... I mean no offense to anyone), but all martial arts have holes, flaws, and "weakness" I am learning BJJ (no I'm not an expert or even close) but I see many weakness that i have been able to exploit with Aikido techniques.

I rank in karate disciplines as well as Aikido and I see weakness.
My point is simply this. When are we as martial artist going to realize that the only true weakness in any art is us the martial artist?

The art itself has nothing to do with anything. It has everything to do with how well "We" as martial artist can adapt to the situation.

If our training is weak than we will be weak, if our training focuses on only a limited amount of pre-arranged attacks, maneuvers etc. etc. then we will be limited.

To me these topics give me a possible indication that martial artist "Aikidoka" in particular may not be thinking. They are learning techniques but never asking or experimenting with situations that could arise.

Maybe!? there is a difference between Martial artist, and martial practitioners? Don't mean to sound like Confusious says, and these are just my opinions...

Train hard people
Jjo

What is an aikido technique? I have techniques, I do not have aikido techniques, bjj techniques, tkd techniques, judo techniques. I have only techniques. When I learn them it becomes part of my personal aikido or personal bjj. If I one day become a bjj instructor, they will learn all of these techniques I have found useful. Martial arts evolve and change with time (or at least they should). You can not categorize anything as a 'X' technique, you can only say where you learned it.

Aristeia
10-10-2006, 10:41 PM
hmmm...interesting question you raise there Don.
Personally I'm not a big fan of the "it's the artist not the art" line. I mean to some degree that is obviously important, but so is the art. If an art has obvious gaps (eg aikido on the ground, bjj against multiple opponents and weapons), then it's not an issue with the artist that they are less competent in those areas - you wouldn't expect them to be when the art they practice doesn't train for that.
So art is important as well as artist.

Now to the question of what techniques. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of becoming say, a BJJ teacher and teaching Aikido techniques. Depending how it's done. The reason I say this is I have seen others who have, say a black belt in Aikido, pick up bits and pieces of other arts and then teach it all under th Aikido banner. This is a problem because of a lack of disclosure. Potential students don't differentiate between the black belt level of instruction they are getting for shiho nage and the 2 stripe white belt level of instruction they are getting for spinning choke.

So I know exactly what you mean when you say it all coalesces for you, but I think if you are going to teach under the banner of an established art - you need to have your credentials clear, and when you step outside of those credentials also make that clear as well. If that makes sense.

Jeanne Shepard
10-10-2006, 11:09 PM
Well, I train, and sometimes I hate it. :grr:

Jeanne

CNYMike
10-10-2006, 11:23 PM
What is an aikido technique? .... You can not categorize anything as a 'X' technique, you can only say where you learned it.

Which is the same difference, really, because there are two things going on at the same time in any MA class -- learning the techniques and learning the system they're a part of. For instance, because there is only a finite number of ways in which to lock the arm's joints, there is no difference between Aikido techniques and grappling techniques in other systems. Yet there is probably world of difference between the average Aikido class and the average BJJ class. That difference is where the "system level" rears its ugly head, and there's no avoiding it because your'e doing both at the same time.

So I would agree and "Aikido technique" is one you learn in Aikido and a BJJ technique is one you learned in BJJ, even if the joint mechanics are the same, there's still a difference.

xuzen
10-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Let me put in this analogy....

A dentist specializes in oral health; whereas a cardiologist specializes in cardiovasular health. Don't ask a cardiologist to extract your tooth and don't ask your dentist to perform open heart surgery on you. Each professional (art) has its specialisation. That is what makes all this forum so exciting and enticing.

I think it would be very boring if a forum comprises only a homogeneous mix. Thank god aikiweb members are from different area of expertise. Eg. Don/Aristeia with their BJJ background, Keith - Sambo, PeterG - true blue aikikai, Kevin Levitt with his army combative background makes the discussion more interesting. It is also good to hear external inputs / ideas from these people.

Boon.

Aristeia
10-11-2006, 12:10 AM
I agree. The internet has made training martial arts much more interesting and enlightened.

Guilty Spark
10-11-2006, 02:02 AM
Thank god aikiweb members are from different area of expertise. Eg. Don/Aristeia with their BJJ background, Keith - Sambo, PeterG - true blue aikikai, Kevin Levitt with his army combative background makes the discussion more interesting. It is also good to hear external inputs / ideas from these people.

Which is why I posted the question and also appreciate hearing aikido views from people who
a) dislike/dismiss or hate aikido
b) were students of aikido and quit.

Interesting to see perspectives from the other side of the fence.

Seems a major issue with Aikido is, as i mentioned in one of my first examples, new members not really understanding aikido or the theories. They jump in with both feet and regurgitate what they hear without really understanding it or how it encompasses them.

It was mentioned some people try and change aikido to suit them instead of trying to change themselves to, if I'm reading that right.

I'm not sure what I think about that. I know I'm guilty of it. I've taken Aikido principals and tried to incorporate them into my life and how I do things instead of maybe the other way around. Doing something the aikido way for lack of a better explanation?
One of my first posts here was a question on how I apply Aikido principals to the military. A passive non-aggression stance, in my situation, WILL get me killed. Not to mention my peers.
I took the non-aggression stuff at face value without really exploring what it meant or what it could mean/include. I'm still confident there is a way to "be aggressive" while applying Aikido principals, I just need to figure out a better word for it and how to successfully do it.

I think a lot of people get hung up where I do, in that they read/hear principals but lack the experience and exposure in how to properly do them. People are quick to want to adopt these principals but need to figure out that there are different ways of, for example, being aggressive?
Aggressive is probably a poor word. Assertive? Professional? Steadfast?
'Keep your distance and behave or suffer consequences'

I'm still not sure if it would be better for me to try and take an altered perspective (from my point of view maybe) on what aikido is and apply it to my life (thus being guilty of not practicing traditional aikido?) or if I should follow a set of strict guidelines.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-11-2006, 04:37 AM
Grant,

Which is why I posted the question and also appreciate hearing aikido views from people who
a) dislike/dismiss or hate aikido
b) were students of aikido and quit.

As i'm not in the a) nor b) situation, maybe my oppinion shouldn't be appreciated :) but as an Aikido/BJJ practitioneer (who sometimes post at BS.net) i think yourself nailed the main problems of Aikido dismissal:

1.- You wrote: ..."a lot of people get hung up where I do, in that they read/hear principals but lack the experience and exposure in how to properly do them."

You can imagine a guy like me, who didn't passed the medical exam for the military service (visual impaired), joining a web forum populated by pros like you or Kevin and start lecturing you about military tactics, strategies and so on based on my experience in paintball playing and Tom Clancy novels...?

and

2.- "I'm still not sure if it would be better for me to try and take an altered perspective (from my point of view maybe) on what aikido is and apply it to my life (thus being guilty of not practicing traditional aikido?) or if I should follow a set of strict guidelines."

I don't think modifiying Aikido to make it like you want to be is a good idea. Harmonizing Aikido with your life, your work and the world you're living in doesn't require taking an altered (fake and limited) perspective. Go for real both in your life and in Aikido and things will became to go well together.

In any case, take care and keep the good work.

DCS

DonMagee
10-11-2006, 06:58 AM
Now to the question of what techniques. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of becoming say, a BJJ teacher and teaching Aikido techniques. Depending how it's done. The reason I say this is I have seen others who have, say a black belt in Aikido, pick up bits and pieces of other arts and then teach it all under th Aikido banner. This is a problem because of a lack of disclosure. Potential students don't differentiate between the black belt level of instruction they are getting for shiho nage and the 2 stripe white belt level of instruction they are getting for spinning choke.

So I know exactly what you mean when you say it all coalesces for you, but I think if you are going to teach under the banner of an established art - you need to have your credentials clear, and when you step outside of those credentials also make that clear as well. If that makes sense.

I agree with you that there is a problem of discolsure. But I would say it is limited to non-competitive arts. I see guys litterally make up stuff all the time. It gets taught and incorperated into bjj or stolen from somewhere and incorporated into bjj (rubber guard?, Twister?, DeLa Riva hook?) In a non-competitive art, i could buy a book on bjj or take some limited instruction and teach my students and they would have no idea that I really have no buisness teaching this stuff. In a competitive art, I would only be teaching techniques that I have had competitive success in. Of course it would be different then the kata aikido version. But I learned it from there. It works in competition, I teach it to my students, it works for them, they teach it, it becomes bjj. Eddie Bravo 'stole' a lot of stuff from wrestling. It doesnt' mean it's not bjj. By this diffinition I would have to say my Tai Otoshi and uchi mada are bjj techniques because I learned them in bjj before I was shown them in judo. But this is probably the subject of another thread all together.

It does highlight another point though. One problem I have with a lot of instructors and it is a problem common to a lot of people who 'hate' a martial art is that a lot of instructors will add what bullshido calls 'crappling' to their art to try to give their students some sense of being able to deal with a competitive fighter. They will show them 'anti-grappling' or give them really bad instruction that they learned from some bjj or gracie video. Aikido guys are not tipically the artists that do this, but I have met a few guys who train in aikido who said their teacher has shown them how to beat a judo or bjj guy. I find this really silly especially because I did not think the goal of aikido was to 'beat' anyone. In any case it shows the teacher is not confident in his ablities because he needs to re-assure his students that it is simple to defeat a trained, in shape, athlete. This also causes a lot of anger and 'hatred' from sport athletes because it is frustrating to see people claiming it is possible to defeat you with a simple elbow on the shoot, or an eye gouge from the mount. Again aikido is usually not the art I see this happen in. But it is a thing that seems to be prevelant amoung non-competitive arts. There seems to be a growing trend to 'prove' that they can take competitive arts. This usually just means blowing smoke to convince your students they are getting training comparable to a combat sport athlete and that if it wasn't for the vow of non-competition, they could step into that MMA ring and tear up any guy in front of them.

happysod
10-11-2006, 09:09 AM
This also causes a lot of anger and 'hatred' from sport athletes because it is frustrating to see people claiming it is possible to defeat you with a simple elbow on the shoot, or an eye gouge from the mount My horse stance will defeat all shoots! Sorry, couldn't resist - of course I'm just joking here, the correct response would of course be wieght underside and extend ki (possibly with a side order of super sayen).

To be fair (and serious) for a minute, this type of "crappling" occasionally comes about due to sheer vitriol of some (often newbie) grapplers who do give you the impression they would butt-scoot along the mat until they had you in the "deadly closed guard" under any and all circumstances - if you get a shite attack, some awful defenses do actually work (hey, just look at some of the shomen-uchi attacks for the beam in aikido's eye)

Erick Mead
10-11-2006, 10:57 AM
For instance, because there is only a finite number of ways in which to lock the arm's joints, there is no difference between Aikido techniques and grappling techniques in other systems. Yet there is probably world of difference between the average Aikido class and the average BJJ class.
... So I would agree and "Aikido technique" is one you learn in Aikido and a BJJ technique is one you learned in BJJ, even if the joint mechanics are the same, there's still a difference.
The key is what is that difference, and are the joint mechanics being exploited in the same way, or at all. One difference is approach and that is psychological/spiritual/motivational -- call it what you will. I have spoken to this somewhat above.

The other difference is in the principle of action being employed. In that aikido is very distinct, for instance in the primary use of tegatana, musubi and taisabaki -- vice grappling and goju. I will not divert the thread with my views on this score. But this aspect of aikido alone is significantly different in principle of action which displays itself in technique and application, not just source of teaching.

I can say without fear of contradiction that the principle of action in aikido is generally viewed as more subtle than that applied in many other arts. This is simultaneously its key strength, it's fundamental diffculty in learning, the source of a false mysticism in the misty eyes of some new adherents, and the commensurately great criticism from other quarters of misunderstanding -- all for that same reason.

Erick Mead
10-11-2006, 11:14 AM
I think a lot of people get hung up where I do, in that they read/hear principals but lack the experience and exposure in how to properly do them. People are quick to want to adopt these principals but need to figure out that there are different ways of, for example, being aggressive?
Aggressive is probably a poor word. Assertive? Professional? Steadfast? Nope. Aggressive is a good word. "A gressio" -- Latin, means "move towards" -- i.e -- irimi. Precisely the right word. The intent of that movement (of body or mind) is the modifier that troubles you, and it must always be ambiguous until completed.
I'm still not sure if it would be better for me to try and take an altered perspective (from my point of view maybe) on what aikido is and apply it to my life (thus being guilty of not practicing traditional aikido?) or if I should follow a set of strict guidelines. Perspective is a funny thing. Depending on that, the earth can seem either flat or round, and can be treated one way or the other depending on the need.

But it remains what it is notwithstanding any asssumptions of convenience I may make.

Be committed to what is real as well as what is useful, without assuming that one is necessarily the same as the other and you will hardly go wrong -- either way.

Kevin Leavitt
10-11-2006, 12:57 PM
Hey Erick, Good post way back there a few (in response to mine). Exactly what I was hoping would come out in the discussion and I agree.

I did not mean to insinuate that you would think otherwise than what you have stated. Good conversation!

jason jordan
10-11-2006, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=Alistair Williams]This is a point that needs attention. I agreee that some aikido schools are very static and almost totaly kata like. There are however many schools, including my own, that work hard to have relevant, dynamic and realistic training. QUOTE]

Alistar I agree with you, and I should have said "Some Schools". please forgive me. :sorry: :D
I think that if more MA schools (all forms) focus on adapting to the times and situations we will all be better artists for it. :D :D

Kevin Leavitt
10-11-2006, 01:42 PM
Yea Jason, but then you bring up the whole argument of the dilution of aikido and if it should remain a pure art form as intended by the founder.

a Parochial view point says that If we all took aikido and evolve it, adapt it to the times, and focus on situations, we can end up with something totally other than what the founder intended, which was to use it as a methodlogy to communicate his philosophy.

BJJ is a good example of an successful adaptation of jiujitsu in a different vein.

If we start adapting aikido, and modifiying it...do we evolve it into something else?

I am a MMA practictioner, so I completely agree on an individual basis in the concept of making an art your own and adapting it to fit your needs/goals. I think it is imperitive to do so if you want to be a good martial artist.

However, I have also grown to appreciate the need to perserve a degree of parocialism, tradition, and, rigidness to a system like aikido...I think you have to balance things out.

I teach martial arts, and essentially do a hybrid based on aikido and BJJ. I would not hold out that I teach aikido or BJJ unless it followed the programs and methodlogies that I was granted to teach by the commonly recognized governing bodies of those arts, namely Aikikai and the Confederation of Brazilian Jiujitsu.

I am not one to be too concerned with lineage, more concerned with effectiveness...that said, it is important, I think with all the guys in the MMA community professing to have the latest and greatest moves, to establish their backgrounds.

Organizations like Aikikai, and CBJJ offer some degree of confidence that the instructor has at least been recognized with a certain degree of competence.

Adapting is a good thing...on an individual level. Some adaptations will turn into formal arts and systems. Both Aikido and BJJ are good examples of arts that have evolved in the 20th Century as adaptations on Older TMA systems.

Aikido though, to me, is very clear about it's intent. I tend to be a classical aikidoka I suppose. I think many have hijacked the name of aikido and have modified it to a point that it has confused many students about the expectations and endstates of the art. To the point that has caused much of the dialoque we see here...people with differing opinions about what aikido is.

I suppose also that might be a good thing....who wants a bunch of people all agreeing homogenously about what they are doing...it would kinda stiffle the whole thinking and growing thing.

I know I just hate it when you have people that honestly believe that they are studying something that will make them some lethal, untouchable fighting machine, when the goal of aikido is to refine spirit, generate awareness, and foster peace and harmony.

I think sensei or purported sensei have an obligation to ensure that students are appropriately guided on the path and are not some deluded "star wars kid".

Anyway thoughts you generated in my mind Jason! Thanks!

jason jordan
10-11-2006, 04:35 PM
Wow!! Good points.

I most definately agree with the intentions of O'sensei and his heart towards Aikido, and the harmonious nature that true aikido keiko should foster.

As far as tradtion is concerned, I think tradition should be followed but only followed with thought and understanding. i.e. don't practice tradition without understanding from where and why the traditional thoughts came about.

But I look at it like this. Aikido is still a martial art, and whereas O'sensei dealt with swords, spears, jo's, bokken, we deal with knives, guns, people wanting to prove their art is better, men raping women etc etc etc. So that in itself brings the need to adapt.

I am finding that tradtion is a hard thing to deal with. (As a Preaching Christian) I have found that some traditional thought was not always "THE BEST WAY" but I have also found that when we try to adjust (Adapt), some people take things waaaayyyyy to far.

And this has been the case with a lot of different situations.
I love Aikido becuase of the philosophy and heart of the art, but I am also drawn to the Martial side of the art and find that I need to in my practice and developement observe the modern day situations "THAT COULD ARRIVE" "keeping the heart and mind of what my Aikido training provides. Ai Ki DO...path, way. Not Jutsu = techniques. (Correct me if Im wrong)

Times have changed therefore we must understand the times, however truth is truth no matter what!

I am rushing my thoughts because it is 30 mins before class time, and I really want to explore this more.

But I hope that I am expressing myself clearly to some degree?!?!?! :hypno: :crazy: :D

Thank you for your time!!!
Jjo

Guilty Spark
10-11-2006, 11:25 PM
Good post Jason (Erik and Kevin as well!)

Very true about having to adapt.

SO a big question for me..
Should Aikido remain traditional, for lack of a better word , and be exactly as O'Sensei intended it to be, verbatim? Or is it possible for Aikido to be fluid and evolve with the time so to speak.
I'm wondering if Aikido looses some of it's spirit/strength when someone adapts it to modern times or perhaps takes Aikido in somewhat of a different direction than Osensei originally intended IE. Tomiki (sp?) Aikido. (The style which uses limited? competition).

Is there a big divide between Aikidoa who believe Aikido shouldn't be changed at all and those who think it's possible to keep what Aikido is/was while adapting certain things?

xuzen
10-11-2006, 11:45 PM
One of my first posts here was a question on how I apply Aikido principals to the military. A passive non-aggression stance, in my situation, WILL get me killed. Not to mention my peers.
When we think about aikido and her priciples (harmony, non-aggressive, blending etc etc) it is probably seen from a civilian perspective. You know, peaceful living among neighbours; love thy neighbour kind of warm fuzzy feelings. I can imagine that such stuff isn't very practical for a serviceman in the middle of a war such as yourself.

So Grant, no need to lose sleep over this contradictory idea. In times of war; you are a soldier not a civilian. For that I think you have the Army Code of Conduct and Geneva Convention for reference?

Boon.

xuzen
10-11-2006, 11:58 PM
Good post Jason (Erik and Kevin as well!)

Very true about having to adapt.

SO a big question for me..
Should Aikido remain traditional, for lack of a better word , and be exactly as O'Sensei intended it to be, verbatim? Or is it possible for Aikido to be fluid and evolve with the time so to speak.
I'm wondering if Aikido looses some of it's spirit/strength when someone adapts it to modern times or perhaps takes Aikido in somewhat of a different direction than Osensei originally intended IE. Tomiki (sp?) Aikido. (The style which uses limited? competition).

Is there a big divide between Aikidoa who believe Aikido shouldn't be changed at all and those who think it's possible to keep what Aikido is/was while adapting certain things?

Just look at all of O'Sensei's top student... how many of them do aikido as what O'Sensei did. There... question answered.

Boon.

Tom H.
10-12-2006, 04:46 AM
Which is why I posted the question and also appreciate hearing aikido views from people who
a) dislike/dismiss or hate aikido
b) were students of aikido and quit.I'm catagory B for now. I found some conditioning to develop my body in a certain way that aikido was not doing as strongly, to which I want to devote daily time doing. If I were unemployed I would have time to do this as well as participate in an aikido dojo, but I'm not, yet. Check back in six months.

Erick Mead
10-12-2006, 07:24 AM
SO a big question for me..
Should Aikido remain traditional, for lack of a better word , and be exactly as O'Sensei intended it to be, verbatim? Or is it possible for Aikido to be fluid and evolve with the time so to speak.
I have gotten to the point that I have glimpses of what takemusu aiki is really about. The techniques create themselves through ki musubi. When I really let go of particular form -- the fundamental form sometimes finds me.
I'm wondering if Aikido looses some of it's spirit/strength when someone adapts it to modern times or perhaps takes Aikido in somewhat of a different direction than Osensei originally intended IE. Tomiki (sp?) Aikido. (The style which uses limited? competition). I cannot presume to judge Tomiki-ha having never practiced in that mode. I have at various times practiced in Federation, ASU and Iwama oriented dojos. That is about all I would say to distinguish those -- orientation. They still cover the field if you go through their programs. I have some limited exposure to Chiba sensei, who has, shall we say, an orientation within an orientation, but very valuable time spent, without doubt. I have had a very brief taste of Yoshinkan in Japan as well, and it is very different in its initial scheme of approach, but not, I judge different in its ultimate coverage. Emphasis and scheduling of concepts is more the distinguishing factor between all of these.

While I have no experience with any Tohei lineage (Ki Society/ Shinshin Toitsu), or with Tomiki/Shodokan, I can envisage an approach that begins with a competitive element (so prevalent in modern society) in a limited range of techniques and perhaps finding ways to obviate the competitive drive by that means itself in demonstrating that he who gives up direct confrontation first actually wins. This may be a study in homeopathy where a little touch of the fever may in fact be a cure for the disease that causes it. It runs the risk of a allowing the competitive (force versus force) element a longer period of dominance in practice if not managed very closely.

By no means will I presume to criticize Tohei's approach either, having no experience in it. I can hoewever see an approach from the opposite end of the spectrum as Tomiki. Founding training in development ki musubi and bodily sensitivity as preliminary to study in expression of aiki through technique. This would keep the competitive (force versus force) element almost entirely at bay. It would run the risk of frustrating the competitive urge, rather than sublimating it, or in losing martial connection in a contemplative kind of absorption.

I do not know if these speculations are true to the arc of their curricula or not. I could imagine on my sense of the whole spectrum of aikido teaching that I have experienced that it may be. If so, I find no problem with either of them from that standpoint of being "true" aikido. (As if it were my place to say).

I find my preference in the middle ground of the "traditional" because both tendencies to depart from the center -- the quietist and the activist can be simultaneously quelled. But that is a preference and may not answer to all needs.

Is there a big divide between Aikidoa who believe Aikido shouldn't be changed at all and those who think it's possible to keep what Aikido is/was while adapting certain things? The images of aikido are both curved and perpendicular -- circle and cross (juji). Movement inward (iirmi) on perpendicular track (cross) in response to a rotary force (tenkan) defines a spiral. Like a spiral, aikido is always dynamic, asymmetric, constantly changing in orientation, position and extension -- but eternal and inalterable in its fundamental form.

Which is my two cents.

mriehle
10-12-2006, 07:28 AM
Should Aikido remain traditional, for lack of a better word , and be exactly as O'Sensei intended it to be, verbatim? Or is it possible for Aikido to be fluid and evolve with the time so to speak.


These kind of questions always evoke the quote:

"Seek not to follow the master. Rather, seek what he sought."

I just wish I could remember who to attribute it to.

In any case, I think it sums up my attitude about traditional vs. adapted Aikido. But, because I never know when to shut up, I'll elaborate:

Aikido is Aikido. Traditional Aikido is just what we think O'Sensei was doing. Adapted Aikido is just what we think he would be doing now. But, physically, there can't be much variation in techniques, really. There are a finite number of ways the body moves. So, what really distinguishes Aikido from Aiki-jujitsu is attitude and intent.

So, rather than trying to be O'Sensei, we should be trying to find our path to what he was seeking. It's not clear to me that he ever truly felt like he'd found it. But it is clear to me that simply following him will prevent us from finding it.

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have tried to elaborate at 6:00am. :drool: :crazy:

Erick Mead
10-12-2006, 08:02 AM
"Seek not to follow the master. Rather, seek what he sought."
I just wish I could remember who to attribute it to. "' Master, where do you dwell?' 'Come and see,' He said."
Aikido is Aikido. Traditional Aikido is just what we think O'Sensei was doing. Adapted Aikido is just what we think he would be doing now. I agree.
But, physically, there can't be much variation in techniques, really. There are a finite number of ways the body moves. So, what really distinguishes Aikido from Aiki-jujitsu is attitude and intent. Here I disagree. I believe that they are different in kind and not just in degree or simple intent of application (although this is true as well).

It is my sense that what really distinguishes Aikido from Aiki-jujitsu is not the dropping of the '-jitsu' for the '-do', but the dropping of 'ju' altogether in favor of the 'aiki'. This abandonment of the "goju" paradigm in aikido and the adoption of ki musubi as the operative principle results in very different applicaiton of aiki technique, and different forms of technique, not merely different intent in applying the same ones.
But it is clear to me that simply following him will prevent us from finding it. He was fairly clear that he invented aikido as a means to avoid following the arduous path he had taken, to get to the place that he found himself. He intended to have blazed a surer path for us than the one he had taken, skirting both cliff an swamp, rather than doggedly slogging through, and climbing over as he had done.

Practice the art he gave and take the path he cut back and left marked, rather than taking the path he took to get there. Depart from it too far and one may lose sight and have to rediscover the way without any guide as he did himself. Me, personally, I am not up to that.

However, that approach is very different from what he ultimately did intend, which is the constant variation of technique in direct connection to things as they occur.

That is takemusu aiki within the structure of aikido, of which demonstrative "techniques" are mere instantaneous sketches, captured frames from a larger dynamic whole, and not a "variation" from aikido per se.

jason jordan
10-12-2006, 08:23 AM
Last night I thought about this while training, and maybe you will find it "Amusing"

I have found that the principles of Aikido have helped me in everyday life. At one point in my life I had an extremely quick temper, and at that time being a black belt in Shotokan really didn't help much, I was always getting suspended, or in fights etc. etc.

Now temper really isn't an issue for me, and when I feel it rising I think to myself "Masakatsu Agatsu Jason"
"True victory is victory over myself" And of course many other situations that I won't take the time to mention.

So here's the question. If I practice Mae Geri, and Hiza Geri, and small circle Ju-jutsu, BJJ waza, but apply the "Principles" of Aikido, would it not still be Aikido? A technique is just that... a technique.

But Aikido being a Do...path, way trancends simple technique. Doesn't it? :freaky:

Like Bruce Lee use to say "What's a style man, we all have 2 legs and 2 arms......"

Just a question. Okay Im done God bless everybody!!!!! :D :D

Erick Mead
10-12-2006, 08:59 AM
So here's the question. If I practice Mae Geri, and Hiza Geri, and small circle Ju-jutsu, BJJ waza, but apply the "Principles" of Aikido, would it not still be Aikido? A technique is just that... a technique. But not all techniques are aiki techniques. And not all applications of aiki are aikido.

Jujutsu is a case in point. It is not only possible to apply aiki within a context of goju (hard/soft, push/pull) principles and techniques -- this is what, as I understand it, aiki-jujutsu does. Aikido takes the sword principles of connection (ki musubi) and uses those instead of goju as the operating principle in combat.

It is like the difference in using engine torque to turn a wheel for weighted traction acceleration or to turn a shrouded propeller for ground effect lift. Same basic type of powered torque conversion, slightly different orientation in application and utterly different operating principle for powered motion. Each has its offsetting tradeoffs, costs, uses and limitations.

I can use ground effect aerodynamics and streamlining in a weighted traction context, just as I can use aiki in a jujutsu context. But it is not the same as taking the aerodynamic principles all the way and abandoning weighted traction as a principle of powered motion.

A tracked tank and a typical hovecraft are both rather rectangular, both traverse very tough ground very effectively, can carry heaavy loads, and can follow precisely the same path in doing so, but they do it very differently.

One is not necessarily better in an absolute sense, but grave misunderstandings occur when the assumptions applying to one are used to try to categorize the other. Only if you look closely, and understood what is happening, might you see that the interface of the tank with the ground is utterly unrelated to that of the hovercraft. It is only when the hovercraft hits the water that it starts to seem really spooky, especially if you thought it was a tank you were watching, and are not well-versed in ground effect dynamics.

But Aikido being a Do...path, way trancends simple technique. Doesn't it? :freaky: Too true. But the differences are real, not merely formal.

DonMagee
10-12-2006, 09:27 AM
I dont care if it's aikido, bjj, karate, boxing, or hockey. I only care that it works well and efficently. Never have I thought "This is an aikido technique" or "This is a bjj technique". Instead I think "This works well, I'll keep refining it", or "This is too complicated, I'll put it on the back burner", or "This is unrealistic and very low percentage. I'll just skip practicing it".

I live my way of life. But when it comes to techniques, I just use what works in competition. If I teach a bjj guy a technique from aikido and he starts using it in competiton. He is not practicing aikido. He just added a new tool to his bjj toolbox. I know a couple guys who have picked up some bastardized version of ikkyo from me though sparing. It's definatly not aikido, and I bet they concider it part of their bjj game.

The Aikido Kid
10-12-2006, 11:24 AM
These points are very interesting. Oh, this is my first post, by the way.

The first time I ever heard of Aikido, it was because of Stephen Seagal. At the time, I decided I wanted nothing to do with it as, based on Seagal movies, it seemed to be one of the most vicious and sadistic martial arts imaginable involving sometimes doing completely unneccesary damage, such as continuing to injure an opponent who was clearly already beaten or damaging someone who could be beaten in a less sadistic manner. Seagal's behavior in interviews and revelations about his real life did nothing to change my mind. I later found out, of course, that the Aikido reflected in Seagal movies has little to do with real Aikido, philosophically at least.

2. I don't see that as a particular reason to dislike Aikido as I think people in all martial arts have a tendency to do that.

3. Same thing.

4. Again, all martial arts have that problem. With Aikido, I think the 'moral superiority' problem can be an issue. My best friend started Aikido before I did and was always going on and on about how it is ethically superior because it teaches to use the minimum harm and, at least some styles, the very techniques are designed for that as opposed to styles where the techniques are designed to put your opponent out of commission by damaging as quickly and completely as possible. I think people could get tired of being told how Aikido is morally superior.

5. I guess I'm in the middle too on the spiritual side but that may be a factor.

6. I'd have to think more about that one.

7. The lack of competition is a very big one, I think. A lot of people approach martial arts as a competitive sport or as something where they are out to prove something or be aggressive and Aikido doesn't meet those needs.

8. On that one, I would say that kicking/ punching styles will always more easily draw students. They seem more exciting and the basics are more easily and quickly grasped.

9. That is a big one. I used to be in a punching/ kicking style. Now, I got my brown belt in Aikido. On vacation, I will probably visit some old friends from my old style. I know that a brown belt in my old style is much more adept at what he does than I am as a brown belt in Aikido because Aikido takes much longer to develop skill. I have no delusions that I would be proficient using Aikido against a real attack. I don't know because you never know what your body memory might do but I suspect I would not be that effective. If the goal is to quickly feel that you are proficient, Aikido is not going to satisfy you.

One other point which might really fit under the philosophical part is that I can find tons of books about the philosophies behind Aikido. With most martial arts, I can find almost nothing. There may be books explaining how a technique in Kung Fu was derived from the movements of an animal or how a martial art grew out of Buddhism or Taoism. There may be books that say that a martial art is only for defense and meant to do the least harm possible. But there seems scant connection between those statements and the actual techniques.

With Aikido, at least the Aikido I am familiar with, the techniques seem designed around the philosophy of doing the least harm possible while protecting yourself. One can find endless books that are really about the philosophy. While that appeals to me, I think the more typical American mentality is much more geared to find that boring and just want to learn to annihilate your opponent and kick posterior.

Why do people hate Aikido?



I've wondered this since joining various Internet martial arts message forums. I think the biggest (only in fact) Aikido-related disappointment I've had is seeing how a considerable number of the MA community react to Aikido.



I can't figure out why.

I've come up with a few possible reasons;



1)Icons. Icons such as Sensei Steven Seagal can either motivate beginners or turn people against said MA. Personally I've enjoyed the interviews I've seen of him and videos, others apparently are so turned off by his character or bearing that it carries over into the martial art itself. They attack the martial art THOUGH these icons.



2)Newbies jumping in with both feet which I think is a biggie (guilty of it too). I think in Martial arts, like many other things (especially religion) when someone is exposed to it and it 'clicks' with them, they go a little crazy. Jumping in with both feet they try to expose themselves to as much of the martial art/religion/sport etc.. as possible. Live eat breathe it. This can of course get sickening especially for people surrounding said individual who have to put up with hearing them preach over and over about this new martial art/religion/sport etc. (I've sure I've annoyed a good number of friends and co-workers). Maybe this comes across as just a new fad or something causing people to immediately get a negative opinion about Aikido?



3)Need to justify it. Carrying over from my last point, I think many new Aikidoa rub people the wrong way because facing criticism they feel the need (with second and third hand information) to defend and champion aikido. Considering the antagonists have "experience" bashing aikido the newbies arguments are quickly put down. The new aikidoa then either 'goes on the attack' making enemies (or an ass of themselves) or sucks back a little and learns to pick and choose their battles.



4)Other members having to justify their own choose MA. I get the feeling that many people seem to need reassurance that their chosen martial art does indeed work. At that, they constantly compare their own marital art to other ones. How effective it is against any given situation, how it deals with knife attacks wrestling on the ground kicking multiple opponents etc.. Their afraid to say hey my martial art has a weakness. It's like their so worried about what everyone else is doing and how they stack up that they miss out on the simple enjoyment of leaning and having fun in their own martial art.



5)Spirituality/Mysticism stuff. Because of the day and age we live in, I think religion, spirituality and such are looked upon with a lot of skepticism and doubt.(With good cause IMHO) It's a big your with us or against us attitude in that if someone isn't devoutly religious/spiritual, then they are at the opposite end of the spectrum and immediately become suspicious around anything approaching a spiritual aspect. Their all about the pure fighting/physical aspect. I've found the Aikidoa often somewhere in the middle. (Which is where I surprisingly find myself). We need only look to a few threads here for examples if people against the whole idea of spirituality.
Maybe some aikido schools concentrate too much on the spiritual side and less so on the physical to the point where it makes the aikido taught there in look ineffective and fake?



6)Ignorance. Stemming from my second point (new students trying to explain things) people easily get the wrong idea about Aikido. A new member starts going off about not competing, not using strikes, the art of "peace" etc.. and someone else reads that and takes the faulty facts as gospel then turns around and passes it on. Listening to lower level belts talking about the spirit of aikido. They 9we) usually don't have the whole story so our arguments and facts are a little skewered.



7)The no-competition thing is a biggie I've found. I think a decent number of people practice martial arts with a view (as large or small as i may be) to proving something to themselves or something else. The non-competition thing, especially when explained by a new Aikido, really sets Aikido up to be bashed by other martial arts. Again people watching others rather than just enjoying what their doing.



8)LARPing or live action role playing. I guess this is a term used to describe to a martial art that isn't really effective but more for show? Aikido is an easy target for this I believe because of the Samurai back round, Aikido tradition, etiquette and even using the Hakama. I can't count how many people it seems have a huge beef with Aikido because of the Hakama. Again people so turned of by the spirituality (or in this case tradition) aspect of a martial art that something like wearing a Hakama is automatic grounds for ridicule. Practicing with a bokken or sword? No need to explain that.

On a note about "LARPing", I think everyone who watches a martial art movie or fight (say UFC) is guilty of wanting to 'be that guy' or be like that guy. Maybe even just picturing themselves in that situation. If this wasn't true then people wouldn't flock to a martial arts when it falls in the spotlight, a la Royce Gracie for just one example.



9)Time required to become proficient. I think that's a major turn off for many people, ergo becoming an argument that "Aikido doesn't work". People like instant or near instant results and by all accounts with Aikido won't provide that time of results.



I'll stop there. That's about the main points I can think of off the top of my head writing this. Does anyone have any additional ideas why Aikido takes such a popularity beating by many (other) martial arts? Or perhaps comment on points I may have completely wrong?

Luc X Saroufim
10-18-2006, 07:09 AM
Why do people hate Aikido?


people "hate" for many reasons. some people are taught to hate from birth; for others, hate can be an instinctual reaction.

if you want my personal opinion, if you ever hate a martial art, it's either because you don't understand its philosophy or don't agree with its philosophy.

SeiserL
10-18-2006, 07:18 AM
IMHO, people "hate" because of fear and ignorance.

OTOH, if people are insecure, they have trouble accepting differences.

Just listen to a lot of Aikido people talk about the bashing and grappling arts, a total lack of acceptance.

Don't worry about "why some people hate Aikido" and embrace the practice if you personally love it.

akiy
10-19-2006, 08:53 AM
The posts on "K. Tohei vs Aikikai" have been split off here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11160

-- Jun

Chris Birke
10-19-2006, 11:30 PM
Why I sometimes hate Aikido :

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11160

I'd rather they just shut ** up and throw down at this stage.

(sorry... couldn't resist =) )

Lyle Bogin
10-22-2006, 05:49 PM
People also hate aikido because aikido people think they are better than other types of martial artists, and it shows.

I myself am guilty of it. I say things like "I studied other martial arts to what I would call the collegiate level, but aikido is my graduate study". But that's how I feel about it. My skills have become really applicable in my world, through aikido training. I could not have gotten to this point with any martial art I studied in the past.

Douglas Fajardo
10-25-2006, 12:48 PM
Hi guys....
when you said (people hate Aikido ),I think is too strong word, the problem is ..... when someone it doesnt understan something, they just reject it, is true that some people make Aikido so spiritual that some occidental think that if you dont punch and hurt peolpe in a real fight,you are not fighting at all, person who reject aikido only think in force and force they dont understan (the calm inside the storm) PLEASE FORGIVE THEM ´CAUSE THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY DO ,,,, look man the most importan thing is ,YOU HAVE TO BELIVE IN AIKIDO (THE REAL BUDO) IF YOU DONT ,IF WE DONT, THEN THE WORK OF O- SENSEI WILL BE LOST FOREVER , REMEMBER BELIVE IN YOU BELIVE IN AIKIDO, DOUGLAS FG,,,,,,, NOTE ,, TRAIN AND TRAIN AHH,,,, OTHER THING, TRAINNNNNN

paulb
10-25-2006, 01:22 PM
People hate Aikido because of its many pretentions.

Aristeia
10-25-2006, 02:46 PM
Hi guys....
when you said (people hate Aikido ),I think is too strong word, the problem is ..... when someone it doesnt understan something, they just reject it, is true that some people make Aikido so spiritual that some occidental think that if you dont punch and hurt peolpe in a real fight,you are not fighting at all, person who reject aikido only think in force and force they dont understan (the calm inside the storm) PLEASE FORGIVE THEM ´CAUSE THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY DO ,,,, look man the most importan thing is ,YOU HAVE TO BELIVE IN AIKIDO (THE REAL BUDO) IF YOU DONT ,IF WE DONT, THEN THE WORK OF O- SENSEI WILL BE LOST FOREVER , REMEMBER BELIVE IN YOU BELIVE IN AIKIDO, DOUGLAS FG,,,,,,, NOTE ,, TRAIN AND TRAIN AHH,,,, OTHER THING, TRAINNNNNNthis is probably a good example of why some people hate aikido.

Keith R Lee
10-25-2006, 03:13 PM
this is probably a good example of why some people hate aikido.

Agreed.

paulb
10-25-2006, 03:33 PM
Practice of Aikido seems to breed certain eccentricities of character (see above).

Jess McDonald
10-25-2006, 06:00 PM
wow you guys. That like, took twenty minutes to read all these posts. Did we even get anywhere with all this? I'm so lost... :(
Jess
PS this doesn't really matter does it?

paulb
10-25-2006, 08:17 PM
I say things like "I studied other martial arts to what I would call the collegiate level, but aikido is my graduate study"

Hmm, If you go around saying things like this is it any wonder people hate you. Sorry to be blunt.

Jorge Garcia
10-26-2006, 03:14 AM
wow you guys. That like, took twenty minutes to read all these posts. Did we even get anywhere with all this? I'm so lost... :(
Jess
PS this doesn't really matter does it?


This is the best post on this thread.

paulb
10-26-2006, 04:26 AM
You took twenty minutes out of your day to read these posts-you seem to think it matters.

The Aikido Kid
10-26-2006, 09:39 AM
People also hate aikido because aikido people think they are better than other types of martial artists, and it shows.

I myself am guilty of it. I say things like "I studied other martial arts to what I would call the collegiate level, but aikido is my graduate study". But that's how I feel about it. My skills have become really applicable in my world, through aikido training. I could not have gotten to this point with any martial art I studied in the past.

What I found 'turned me off' about Aikido for a while before I started studying it was my best friend touting its superiority. He was not referring to its technical superiority in terms of techniques but that, at least in the style he was familiar with which is Yoshinkan, the techniques are designed around subduing with the least harm. His opinion was and is that while all martial arts speak of self -defense only and doing the least harm neccessary, the techniques themselves are not developed or changed based around that philosophy.

One thing I hear a lot at the dojo is that most martial artists will try to avoid a combat situation but, once it is inevitable, the actual techniques of most styles are not designed around the least harm. In the style I'm studying, many techniques that were originally designed to break bones or otherwise severally damage, are altered enough to subdue rather than break.

Of course, I also believe that it is ultimately the instructor more than the style. An instructor will adapt things to fit his beliefs.

There is a story I heard about a man who had attained a black belt, possibly higher than First degree, in a karate style. He got into a confrontation with his brother who was drunk. During the argument, his brother threw a punch at him. Before he even realized what he was doing, he blocked so hard it dislocated his brother's shoulder and punched so hard it broke his jaw and gave him a concussion.

Needless to say, he was horrified at what he had done. Even though his brother had attacked, it was just a roundhouse that would have done little harm. He felt his counter was completely inappropriate to the intentions of the attacker. But he realized he had simply done what he was trained to do, attack hard and incapacitate the attacker completely as quickly as possible. In spite of the level he had attained, he dropped out of the style because he did not want that sort of instinctive reaction conditioned into him. He searched for other styles and eventually began studying Aikido, reaching the same level he had been in the other style and beyond it. But he chose a style of Aikido specifically because, had he trained in that style, his trained reaction would have been much different, to subdue without causing serious harm if it was not neccessary.

Now, probably Aikido people telling stories like that is precisely why some people hate Aikido. It implies that Aikido is somehow ethically superior. I know I resented stories like that before I started studying Aikido. I still think the attitude is flawed on two levels. First, it will take a long time to develop that level of proficiency if one ever does. Secondly, I suspect most styles could be adapted to adhere to the same philosophy as, again, it is more the instructor that the style.

Keith R Lee
10-26-2006, 10:38 AM
This is along the lines we have been discussing:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2476

It is my belief that this rediscovery alone that will revive Aikido into its true place as the most sophisticated and highly developed martial art that uncovers innate Enlightenment within those that have found its essence.

Stuff like that really tends to turn off practical, rational people. Especially those in competitive MAs.

Guilty Spark
10-26-2006, 11:40 AM
Some practioners passive-agressive attitudes likewise could be a huge turn off.

I know I've read some arguments on aikiweb and just thought to myself wow. Smiling pretty words and pretending to be friendly doesn't make personal attacks any less hurtful. Actually kind of reminds me of politics which is a bit of a disapointment.

PS this doesn't really matter does it?

Yes and no, I guess Jess. If this stuff doesn't matter to you then thats probably a really good thing. I know I love Aikido regardless what people say about it or peoples reactions to it. I just thought it would be interesting to explore why some people feel how they do and to see aikido from their point of view. Figured it would help me understand Aikido better, even to a small extent.

kironin
10-26-2006, 12:42 PM
I think a more productive thread really might be "Why do people love aikido ?"

People could discuss why they love it and then perhaps we could discuss how to foster having more of that.


I am not convinced that focusing on people's negative reactions is going to lead to much understanding. So often that seems to have less to do with aikido itself than with the shortcomings we all have as individuals.

mathewjgano
10-26-2006, 01:29 PM
I think a more productive thread really might be "Why do people love aikido ?"

I agree the trappings of a "...hate..." versus "...love..." topic tend to be less pleasant and more antagonistic. And, "hate" is a rather strong term...so maybe "dislike" would be better too, but I don't think it's unproductive simply to ask why someone might not like something. I know I've certainly taken benefit from people speaking critically (ie-negatively) of Aikido...maybe even more so than from those who express what they like about it...being that I am pretty much already aligned with their thinking (at this point in my training at least).

Douglas Fajardo
10-26-2006, 02:16 PM
this is probably a good example of why some people hate aikido.
:) aikido is not for fighting ,aikido is understand the world,nature,if the are seeking force and hurt ,then they are lost ,I´m not try to explain that this is better than other ,if they hate aikido ask then what they hate of aikido , the filisofi, spiritual ,tai sabaki,
MICHAEL I DONT THINK THAT AIKIDO IS THE BEST OF ALL M A , IS THE PERSON THE ONE WHO MAKES THE ART SO SPECIAL , FOR ME ALL ARE THE SAME,
BUT :grr: SOMEONE WHO HATE AIKIDO IS VS NATURE, AND UNIVERSE, AIKIDO .
:) O-SENSEI LOVE THE PACE THAT´S WHY HE DEVELOPED THIS ART. BUT IF YOU EXPLAIM TO THEN AND THEY DONT UNDERSTAND , DO SOMETHING TRY AGAIN ,,, BUT IN MY OPINION THE WORLD IS TOO LOST , TOO FULL OF HATE ,PEOPLE HATE AND DESTROY WHAT THE DONT UNDRESTAND
MICHAEL FOOKS IF YOU ARE NOT OK WITH ME , DONT WORRY I´LL EXPLAIM YOU AGAIN , THAT IS FOR YOU TOO LEE ;)
MATA AIMASU DFG

Douglas Fajardo
10-26-2006, 02:30 PM
Practice of Aikido seems to breed certain eccentricities of character (see above).
BOSWELL TELL ME SOMETHING WHAT DO YOU THINK OF AIKIDO , BUY THE WAY FOR ME AIKIDO IS LIKE ( THE TAO) IS IN EVERY PLACE, RIVERS ,PLANTS, RAIN, WIND,EARTH.
WHAT DO YOU THINK .

paulb
10-26-2006, 03:55 PM
What I found 'turned me off' about Aikido for a while before I started studying it was my best friend touting its superiority
Common sense seems to suggest that constant touting of ones superiority is a mask for some kind of unconscious inferiority or inadequacy. Moreover, as harmless as it may seem, storys about Aikidos superiority are quite poisonous to the martial arts as a whole. The average Aikidoka has 1001 ways of subtly, or obviously undermining other martial practitioners with unusual anecdotes, philosophical postulations etc. Unfortunately and ironically, Aikido is not a superior martial art either in terms of self defence or philosophically. If a person believes it is the best they have not seen enough martial arts.

Aristeia
10-26-2006, 04:15 PM
in response to the "does it mattter" and "let's just focus on why people like us" comments.

It's pretty simple in my mind. Would you rathere train with 3 training partners or 30? Would you rather see Aikido grow and flourish, or wither and die out?

It's tempting to say "i enjoy it, who cares what anyone else thinks" and that's a valid response. But it may also be valid to take a long term view and ask how can we ensure the art continues to grow (and for those that like to talk about "O'sensei's dream" this should be particularly important).
To accomplish that you've got to do both sides of the coin - figure out what is good and attractive about it, so you can accentuate that, and figure out what puts people off so that, so long as it doesn't undermine the arts foundation, you can start to weed it out.

CNYMike
10-26-2006, 11:48 PM
.... Would you rather see Aikido grow and flourish, or wither and die out? ....

The Best Aikido books state that the best estimate is that there are 1.5 million pepole practicing AIkido world wide. I've been to three seminars in the past month, all of which drew a pretty good crowd if the mat's "population density" is anything to go by. The Doshu is publishing books and teaching seminars all over the place.

I don't think Aikido is going to "whither and die" anytime soon.

But be that as it may ....


....you've got to do both sides of the coin - figure out what is good and attractive about it, so you can accentuate that, and figure out what puts people off so that, so long as it doesn't undermine the arts foundation, you can start to weed it out.

Unless it's the "art's foundation" that puts off some of the Internet poster referred to in the first post, then nothing you do will satisfy them. But I doubt internet postings make for reliable scientific samplings anyway.

DaveS
10-28-2006, 08:08 PM
Just listen to a lot of Aikido people talk about the bashing and grappling arts, a total lack of acceptance.
Meh. I had a lengthy argument today with another aikidoka (rather better and more experienced than me) who was claiming that kicking is an inherently bad idea because it involves voluntarily weakening your own balance. (And moreover that shiai randori + goshin no kata is adequate preperation for any sort of fight - for instance, defending yourself against a kickboxer is straightforward because dealing with straight kicks is just like reacting to tanto strikes and and all you have to do against non-straight kicks is irimi...)

Based on no experience of any martial art except aikido, obviously...

Btw, I think a lot of people who appear to 'hate' aikido actually just take the piss out of aikido, which is a rather different thing. I take the piss out of people who went to Oxford, applied mathematicians, flautists and virtually every area of Great Britain except the one where I grew up and the ones where I've recently lived. But I wouldn't say that I'm anywhere near actually hating any of these, or even disparaging them in a particularly genuine way - it's just easy and fun...

Douglas Fajardo
10-28-2006, 10:20 PM
I dont think aikido is « whither and die» no my friend that's not gonna happen for a long time belive me, not in your dreams,
«how can we ensure the art continues to grow» see,,,, how many person practice aikido in the world,that's the question for you ;)
:triangle: :square: :circle: DFG

Douglas Fajardo
10-28-2006, 10:40 PM
Common sense seems to suggest that constant touting of ones superiority is a mask for some kind of unconscious inferiority or inadequacy. Moreover, as harmless as it may seem, storys about Aikidos superiority are quite poisonous to the martial arts as a whole. The average Aikidoka has 1001 ways of subtly, or obviously undermining other martial practitioners with unusual anecdotes, philosophical postulations etc. Unfortunately and ironically, Aikido is not a superior martial art either in terms of self defence or philosophically. If a person believes it is the best they have not seen enough martial arts.
tell me my friend do you practice aikido or you just see the class out side of the tatami , I'm ok wiht you that aikido is not only MA in the world but i'll will never say «that aikido is not a superior either in terms of self defense or philosophically» :D ,
if you practice aikido,,,,, man ,,,, do something else but aikido maybe bjj,karate,SUMO,boxing,thai, jajajajajajajajajaj . BYE

Aristeia
10-28-2006, 11:11 PM
are you saying douglas that anyone that practices Aikido should automatically have the opiniion that is is superior to all other martial arts?

CNYMike
10-29-2006, 10:09 AM
Meh. I had a lengthy argument today with another aikidoka (rather better and more experienced than me) who was claiming that kicking is an inherently bad idea because it involves voluntarily weakening your own balance .....

Well, he's right on that technical point, because when you're throwing a kick puts that your balance on one leg. Higher kicks (chest or higher) are even worse because they also expose your groin. That's why many systems advocate low kicks. High kicks seem to be good for developing flexibility, coordination, body mechanics, balance, and just having something that looks cool at parties, but for actual combat, low is better. So he has a valid argument, but I don' think that makes kicks "inherently bad," just some points one would have to be aware of about them.

When it comes to thhe way different teachers think of Aikido, I've heard this phrase from my seniors: "It's not wrong; it's just different." The same can be said of all arts and techniques: They're not wrong, just different. Kicking has its advantages and disadvantages. Aikido, for the most part, chooses not to train in them, but neither do western boxers. Want to tell a boxer he's a pushover because he doesn't kick? I didn't think so. So Aikido doesn't spent a lot of time -- if any -- on kicks. Big Fat Harry Deal.

Douglas Fajardo
10-29-2006, 12:58 PM
Dear friend fooks, I said that aikido is just another M A in this world but we can't say« that aikido is not a superior art »for me all the MA in this world are superior ,I'll never gonna say that X MA is better than this one, is just not right, Is the person the one who make it real good, for example , see UFC Gracie is great fighter in BJJ ,I'm talking about the first UFC fight 1992,93,94 for example .
of course this is only sport, but my point is that HE USE BJJ SO WELL THAT NOT ONE WAS MATCH FOR HIM , many fighter came wiht the same style but the loose that's my point , THE Ma just a tool but the way you use it is what count
DFG :D

Aristeia
10-29-2006, 01:52 PM
me all the MA in this world are superior I think you need to re look at the definition of "superior".

And for the record, in the early UFCs there were not other BJJers coming in and losing.

Aristeia
10-29-2006, 01:54 PM
Aikido, for the most part, chooses not to train in them, but neither do western boxers. Want to tell a boxer he's a pushover because he doesn't kick? I didn't think so. So Aikido doesn't spent a lot of time -- if any -- on kicks. Big Fat Harry Deal.Important difference. Boxers are training specifically to deal with other boxers playing the game of boxing. So of course they ain't gonna train to deal with kicks. Whereas Aikido is supposed to prepare you for more "no rules" type altercations, is it not? Isn't that one of the big arguments offered up for not having a sporting application?

DaveS
10-29-2006, 02:14 PM
Whereas Aikido is supposed to prepare you for more "no rules" type altercations
It isn't neccessarily supposed to prepare you for all types of 'real world' altercations - it doesn't do much (from a martial point of view) against a neutron bomb or (on a slightly more realistic level) someone who has a gun and much of a clue how to use it. But the point is that we don't try to explain this omission by saying that guns are useless because the bang would attract too much attention and anyway the gun might misfire and injure the holder...

DaveS
10-29-2006, 03:04 PM
Well, he's right on that technical point, because when you're throwing a kick puts that your balance on one leg. Higher kicks (chest or higher) are even worse because they also expose your groin. That's why many systems advocate low kicks. High kicks seem to be good for developing flexibility, coordination, body mechanics, balance, and just having something that looks cool at parties, but for actual combat, low is better. So he has a valid argument, but I don' think that makes kicks "inherently bad," just some points one would have to be aware of about them.
Oh, I'd agree that kicking temporarily weakens your balance - or rather it weakens your ability to deal with attempts to disrupt you balance or to counterattack you in other ways. There are cons to going for a kick. But relatively few kicking arts believe in walking up to the opponent and going straight out for a spinning kick to the head, but rather they use (from what I've seen and experienced) various methods - speed, good balance, timing, setting up a kick with other attacks and so on - to minimize these cons until they're outweighed by the 'pro' ie the possibility of your foot or shin colliding rapidly with a more delicate part of the opponent.

My point was that concluding that kicking is basically martially useless based on having thought about it a bit and decided that the disruption to your balance makes it a bad idea is the sort of thing that tends not to endear (some) aikidoka, or anyone else for that matter, to the martial arts community as a whole...

Aristeia
10-29-2006, 04:36 PM
good posts David

paulb
10-29-2006, 05:10 PM
if you practice aikido,,,,, man ,,,, do something else but aikido maybe bjj,karate,SUMO,boxing,thai, jajajajajajajajajaj
I do not pretend to be an expert, but there are many more styles out there than listed above, although those are all good styles. I have practiced Aikido and have friends who stuck with it. I have found greater levels of humility, open-mindedness and MUCH greater levels of skill outside of Aikido.

mathewjgano
10-29-2006, 06:51 PM
If a person believes it is the best they have not seen enough martial arts.
Very true of all martial arts.

Douglas Fajardo
10-29-2006, 08:10 PM
QUOTE=Paul Boswell]I do not pretend to be an expert, but there are many more styles out there than listed above, although those are all good styles. I have practiced Aikido and have friends who stuck with it. I have found greater levels of humility, open-mindedness and MUCH greater levels of skill outside of Aikido.[/QUOTE]
:) jajajajajaja , oh man what are you doing in this site, but I tell you my friend and I´m total ok whit you that I also have found greater leves of skill such as karate [ Oyama sensei ,funakoshi,Ikeda, real good, as others M A.
But I wonder why people do hate Aikido, I mean that´s a funny question I never saw same thing like that , you see I love all MA maybe you don beliveme jajajajajajajajaj ;) but is true I also defend Aikido at all cost,maybe they see Aikido too soft too weak anyway peace my friend, I really enjoy this conversation.
wuaho that´s the way I like, Everybody defend his position , you know who win more wiht all this,.. [MA] jajajajaj
bye DFG ;)

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-29-2006, 08:43 PM
Hi Douglas Fajajajardo, I've seen this jajaja thing in a couple of Spanish developer mailing lists, but you're making this into a deadly technique. Jajajajaja!!!!

Douglas Fajardo
10-29-2006, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=Michael Fooks]I think you need to re look at the definition of "superior".

My big friend fooks,
SUPERIOR MEANS SUPERIOR, I have to spell it man,
The man or women are the only who makes mistakes,got that my friend, by the way yes there were BJJ´s UFC, :yuck: only sport now , too bad

Douglas Fajardo
10-29-2006, 09:24 PM
Hi Douglas Fajajajardo, I've seen this jajaja thing in a couple of Spanish developer mailing lists, but you're making this into a deadly technique. Jajajajaja!!!!

:D :D :D jajajajajaja ANATABA NIHONJIN DESSUKA,

LIVE IS TOO SHORT TOMADACHI YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT LIFE LIKE DEAD WHEN I FACE ANY PROBLEM I´M CALM ALWAYS SMILING, LIFE IS TOO BEATIFUL I DON´T WASTE MY TIME GETTING ANGRY :rolleyes: :D MATA AIMASU ;)

DonMagee
10-29-2006, 09:47 PM
I have no idea what is going on

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-29-2006, 10:42 PM
Thisi s the funniest version of "threadkill" I have ever seen on this site. I love it! Pure love, that's on topic right?

CNYMike
10-30-2006, 09:34 AM
Important difference. Boxers are training specifically to deal with other boxers playing the game of boxing. So of course they ain't gonna train to deal with kicks ....

True, but do you have to be a kicker to deal with kicks? Not necssarliy. Look at the Gracies. They took on all comers, including kickers, and beat them with ground grappling. So it can be done.

My point is Aikido and boxing are systems that specialize in certain areas and don't worry about other areas, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Just as there's nothing wrong with TKD systems that spcialize in high kicks but that don't do much with the hands. That Aikido doesn't do much if anything with kicks, and that I haven't seen any formalized kicks in either of ths dojos I've trained in -- Seidokan in the '80s and the one I'm in now -- does not bother me in the slightest. Every art has something to offer; Aikido's "something" just does not happen to involve kicks. Thai Bosing, in contrast, has kicks, punches, knees, and elbows, but no throws and locks; is that a problem? Guess where MMA guys go for striking? Guess it's not.

CNYMike
10-30-2006, 09:38 AM
My point was that concluding that kicking is basically martially useless based on having thought about it a bit and decided that the disruption to your balance makes it a bad idea is the sort of thing that tends not to endear (some) aikidoka, or anyone else for that matter, to the martial arts community as a whole...

Well, I haven't heard that line from any of the Aikido people I train with, and I haven't heard that particular complaint about Aikido people from the other martial artists I've trained with (including my Kali instructor who, as I said before, thinks it's great I'm doing Aikido). Then again, they say Ithaca, NY is ten square miles surrounded by reality, so I shouldn't be surprised if in this regard, the local martial arts community is cut off from the rest of it. But I'll keep my ears open in case I'm wrong.

CNYMike
10-30-2006, 09:41 AM
I have no idea what is going on

Just blend with it and remember not to take ukemi face first. :)

Erick Mead
10-30-2006, 12:30 PM
People hate Aikido because of its many pretentions. Actually, the pretense is merely an affectation ...

kironin
10-30-2006, 03:14 PM
If a person believes it is the best they have not seen enough martial arts.

Anyone who has trained for a long time in martial arts realizes that there is no such thing as the best. There is only what is best for me. What gets me interested and motivated enough to practice consistently year after year. What's congruent with my goals. What do I enjoy enough to endure some pain and fatigue or risk injury.

Those practicing any martial art on a regular basis is a vanishingly small portion of the population (not including all the kiddies been driven after school to the local babysitting establishment by Mom or Dad).

The rest is just hot air.

Ketsan
10-30-2006, 05:23 PM
People hate Aikido because most Aikidoka are brilliant at performing kata in the dojo but useless at anything else. Our demos look fake because basically they are; they're well rehearsed routines; uke without making any kind of attempt to defeat tori beyond the initial attack will end up on the floor and so tori will win in a suspiciously clean and efficent way. As an example of this let me outline an experience I had a couple of weeks back. I was on a multi-style course for charity and my association was forming the Aikido component. So to demonstrate how great Aikido was we talked about moving our center and making sword cuts (without a visable sword) while teachning ai hamni ikkyo to a large group of seriously unimpressed Taekwondo dan grades. We looked like a bunch of nutters.

This is not to say anything negative about Aikido per se. It's just that our public image is one of being decidedly fake. Most Aikidoka wouldn't even recognise Aikido unless it was in kata form.
As an example of this I take my own and another Aikido instructors shock on the last class which was taught by Chris Crudelli who's instructions were basically "Take a knife between two and fight over it". Now my friend and I were beating the snot out of each other with "Aikido techniques" but because it wasn't nice clean kata with a recogniseable uke and a recogniseable tori and the taisabaki was shorter, with loads of atemi, it provoked shock from other Aikidoka.
We'd get into situations where kote gaeshi didn't quite work because of the dynamics of the struggle and the other person would resist and try to counter it, which was fine because we just put some atemi in and harmonised with the resistance to make another technqiue. This to me is Aikido but most Aikidoka take the view that it's competition and so cannot possibly be Aikido.
If people saw this kind of thing and if Aikidoka learned to apply the lessons taught by kata against a resisting opponent then we wouldn't get such a bad rep.

kironin
10-31-2006, 04:58 AM
Ok. I am stunned by how unconsciously arrogant that last post was.

Some good realizations for your training, but the presumptions about knowledge of the way others are training across the planet was breathtaking.

happysod
10-31-2006, 06:14 AM
but the presumptions about knowledge of the way others are training across the planet was breathtaking which leads us nicely back into the topic of the thread... although to be fair he does have a point about many of the aikido demo vids you can find littering youtube - I still blame the skirt-wearing myself.

DonMagee
10-31-2006, 06:43 AM
Do not question the skirt! The skirt wearing is sound!

RoyK
10-31-2006, 06:55 AM
which leads us nicely back into the topic of the thread... although to be fair he does have a point about many of the aikido demo vids you can find littering youtube - I still blame the skirt-wearing myself.

I would understand a claim such as "I've seen too many demo videos of Aikido, but no fighting videos or aikido used in real life videos". But why bash a demo for being a demo?

happysod
10-31-2006, 08:29 AM
But why bash a demo for being a demo because they're often not presented as such (and anyway, shouldn't even a demo at least indicate how well the art can perform martially). The standard aikido bashing I've seen normally goes...

detractor: "never seen decent aikido, just crappy dancing"
[cheers from the crowd]
aikido cultist: [lots of outraged sputtering followed by] "look at this, this is true (TM) aikido" [link to demo on youtube]

then the fun begins, normally with aikido cultist alternating between defending the demo, claiming alternative training practises at his/her "one true" aikido dojo - add a failed attempt at self-deprecation and humour, a small sprinkle of hero worship, references to unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence and stir to provide some admittedly amusing threads.

Perhaps the uber-warrior members of aikiweb could give us some new demos, thankfully I'm an aiki-bunny so I get to just sit back and watch.

Don, trust me, it's the skirts, we need new skirts, A-line is so unflattering on the more mature hara.

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 08:44 AM
because they're often not presented as such (and anyway, shouldn't even a demo at least indicate how well the art can perform martially).

Hmm...please post a link to an aikido "demo" on youtube that is not presented as such...come to think of it, HOW do you not present a demo as a demo? I've seen demos that were modeled on a normal training class, I've seen demos that were basically pre-arranged scripts, and I've seen demos that were fairly spontaneous (admittedly more rare). But they were all demos, and it was obvious that was what they were meant to be.

One of the best ones I've seen was on a 30 minute or so film of Gozo Shioda on youtube. He takes on about 5 guys in what seems to be a pretty impromptu fashion. Some really good stuff on that. In no way would I think that it represents a fight. It is obviously a demo. Even when Kancho sent someone to the hospital with a concussion, it was still obviously a demo.

Best,
Ron

Basia Halliop
10-31-2006, 09:03 AM
I can't comment on the quality or fakeness or whatever of Aikido demos either in general or in particular, not having seen a lot and not being much of a judge of their quality, but I don't entirely understand the argument that seems to be being made that a demo is supposed to be fake, and that people should 'obviously' know that. Isn't a demo supposed to be demonstrating _something_? Doesn't the word 'demonstration' imply an attempt to demonstrate the art accurately? If people set out to do demos as fake things, then wouldn't that mean they were choosing to demonstrate fake Aikido?

I certainly get why someone might want to do a 'tutorial' or a 'practise' that is intentionally fake, e.g. by slowing it down enough that you can better see and understand the constituent parts, or by going over the same thing over and over again or whatever, but I'm not sure a lot of people really get the 'point' of an intentionally fake 'demonstration' -- do you mean they're pretending to do Aikido for an audience?

Kind of like 'this is a dramatization to give you an idea of what it might actually look like'? That sort of makes sense, if that's what they're doing, but if that's what they're doing, do they make it clear to the audience that that's what they're doing? If the audience isn't clear that it's _supposed_ to be play-acting, and that the demonstrators _know_ they're play-acting, they're not going to get a very good impression....

happysod
10-31-2006, 09:08 AM
Hmm...please post a link to an aikido "demo" on youtube that is not presented as such...come to think of it, HOW do you not present a demo as a demo Obviously still not being clear - the youtube link presented as evidence for the effectiveness of aikido is not described as a link to a demo by the argumentative little aikidoka in the webforum they are battling in and the youtube titles given can be unclear.

This leads to the standard death spiral of "that's not real" to "where are all the good real aikido vids then" as mentioned and on down the usual aikido bashing path.

I've seen this happen not only with aikido, but other arts where a link is misrepresented by someone on a web-forum as other than a demo. Now if you know anything about martial arts, I agree it's normally obvious they are demos, but many internet fauna don't (and often don't care). I'm not bashing the people doing the demo, but the ones misrepresenting the demo.

damn - cross posting, Basia says what I mean I think

Ketsan
10-31-2006, 09:15 AM
Ok. I am stunned by how unconsciously arrogant that last post was.

Some good realizations for your training, but the presumptions about knowledge of the way others are training across the planet was breathtaking.


Ok, I'll accept that but please understand (should have made this clear) that I only ever talk about what I see.

Ketsan
10-31-2006, 09:18 AM
I would understand a claim such as "I've seen too many demo videos of Aikido, but no fighting videos or aikido used in real life videos". But why bash a demo for being a demo?
I just talk about the reactions people have to the demo. You and I know it's a demo and we know what the art is in reality but if you've not trainned in Aikido, and often if you have in the case of people that train for years and then leave and end up putting down Aikido, you wont understand what is going on. You'll just assume the art is fake because it's all just a little too polished and that doesn't help with our reputation.

DaveS
10-31-2006, 10:45 AM
True, but do you have to be a kicker to deal with kicks? Not necssarliy. Look at the Gracies. They took on all comers, including kickers, and beat them with ground grappling.
Well, afaict they were reasonably good at using kicks as a distraction to help close distance and get into grappling range without getting pummelled. But the real point is that although they weren't kicking specialists, they had enough understanding of how a kicking specialist would work not to leave the sort of openings that such a fighter would be able to exploit. You're right that this doesn't need you to have trained in a kicking style yourself (although personally I'd take that option as being fun and interesting) but I think you do need to have put in some in depth study of kicking systems and preferably trained with people with practical experience of them.

My point is Aikido and boxing are systems that specialize in certain areas and don't worry about other areas, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Just as there's nothing wrong with TKD systems that spcialize in high kicks but that don't do much with the hands. That Aikido doesn't do much if anything with kicks, and that I haven't seen any formalized kicks in either of ths dojos I've trained in -- Seidokan in the '80s and the one I'm in now -- does not bother me in the slightest. Every art has something to offer; Aikido's "something" just does not happen to involve kicks. Thai Boxing, in contrast, has kicks, punches, knees, and elbows, but no throws and locks; is that a problem? Guess where MMA guys go for striking? Guess it's not.
There's a difference between using a given technique yourself and being prepared to deal with a technique coming from an opponent, though. If your aikido dojo doesn't claim to teach you to deal with kicks (and mine doesn't and it doesn't bother me) then that's fine. But if you claim that aikido gives you a reasonably complete stand-up fighting / self defense system then kicks are something that you have to consider, even if you don't intend to use them yourself.

Btw, kicking isn't the classic example of the sort of thing that leads some aikidoka (generally inexperienced and/or stupid ones at that) to represent themselves badly (particularly on the internet) - groundfighting might be a better one. Whenever the subject comes up, you get at least a few people claiming that either groundfighting is easy enough to make up as you go along or that for one reason or another it is impossible (or at least highly improbable) that a self defence situation could end up on the ground. Generally without having any direct experience of groundfighting themselves. I don't study any groundwork myself, but I accept that if I was concerned with self defence this would be an omission, and I also don't try to make pronouncements about the details of groundfighting.

And yeah, I'm not saying that this is true for most or even for many aikidoka, but such people do make fools of themselves on the internet on a fairly regular basis, from what I've seen.

Mathias Lee
10-31-2006, 10:58 AM
I've been tuahgt groundfighting and defences frm kicks and both have been in an aikido dojo. The reason some aikido schools donlt teach it is because most feel if you close the distance and getinto the classic aikido stances (as so many peopel do in every day fights) then kciks become obsolete. This is true, but it;s very rare you as the defendedr gets to choose the distance you;re fighting from. But there's a few other reason kicks can be overlooked. One is that the person kicking needs skill to perform a good kick and if they have this skill they are responsible (complete bollocks but I;ve heard it said). Another reason is that to fight a kick is exactly the same as fighting hand to hand. Legs bend in the same way, move in the saem way, the only difference is it;s lower. Even minimal practicing can overcome that and then you have all your aikido knowledge! And in contrary to Dave, you do not need to be taught how to graple, grappling is extremely pointless unless you do juijutsu. If a fight does go down to the floor, ignore everythign it says in the dynamic sphere about leaving the person unhurt and go for ribbs, neck, pins, breaks, kidneys; pretty much anythign you can hit. Most people I know who claim to 'know grappling' swiftly rekant that statement after I bite them! Not hard of course (Shifty eyes). Soby the nature of aikido trying to groundfight, they will represent themselves badely, unless they know how to cause real pain with whatever they've got!

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 11:17 AM
Hi David, Right you are!

And in contrary to Dave, you do not need to be taught how to graple, grappling is extremely pointless unless you do juijutsu. If a fight does go down to the floor, ignore everythign it says in the dynamic sphere about leaving the person unhurt and go for ribbs, neck, pins, breaks, kidneys; pretty much anythign you can hit. Most people I know who claim to 'know grappling' swiftly rekant that statement after I bite them! Not hard of course (Shifty eyes).

The experienced grapplers will be right along to correct your misunderstandings. Just thought I'd warn you to duck! Oh, and aikido is a form of jujutsu...

Best,
Ron

DaveS
10-31-2006, 12:38 PM
The experienced grapplers will be right along to correct your misunderstandings. Just thought I'd warn you to duck! Oh, and aikido is a form of jujutsu...
And a form of grappling!

But there's a long and intermittently informative thread on aikido, groundwork and self defence somewhere already, so it'd be best not to derail this thread much further. I didn't really want to get into a 'does aikido have defences against kicks / elbows / flamethrowers / whatever' argument so sorry for launching that, too. I was just trying to point out an instance of an aikidoka generalizing about other arts from minimal experience.

To get somewhere close to on topic, one thing that annoys me rather about some aikido demos is the tendancy for ukes to make a run at tori starting from three or four mats away before finally diving in towards them to attack with no regard for their own balance. Is there a good reason that people do this? As far as I can tell, it conceals part of the skill that tori could be demonstrating (for the benefit of both other aikidoka and non-aikidoka) - judging ma ai such that uke has to move in to attack, reacting quickly enough to get the timing right without three seconds warning, and blending with the attack / taking uke's balance without needing the attack to be overcommitted.

DonMagee
10-31-2006, 12:50 PM
Hi David, Right you are!



The experienced grapplers will be right along to correct your misunderstandings. Just thought I'd warn you to duck! Oh, and aikido is a form of jujutsu...

Best,
Ron


I'll take a grappling challenge with strikes and biting any day of the week with someone who is not a trained grappler. Of course I admit to the weakness I personally have with dealing with guys more than 50 pounds heavier than I.

Mathias,

What you are describing is flailing wildly. Anyone who has been on the ground with an experianced grappler (lets say more than 6 months training) knows that doing this exposes your limbs, and you will get broke. Of course I also get to strike, eye gouge, rip at your throat, and bite you as I see fit. The difference, i'm trained to control my position and be in a much better position to do these things to you. So while you bite my arm, I'll break a joint or remove your eyes, or choke you out cold. Then I'll stand up and beat you senseless for biting me, then i'll go get my wound dressed.

Simply, you can not learn how to fight on the ground with kata. You have to spar, you have to learn how the body works on the ground, and how to get dominate position. Otherwise you will be in much more danger of these dirty tricks than the guy who knows what he is doing. If you spar at all in grappling you would know, reaching or extending the arms, letting your arms leave the body so the elbows are exposed = broke arms, chokes, sweeps etc. Once you are mounted you have nothing to bite, and reaching to eye gouge = arm bar. Not to even mention blows raining down on you. So rather the working on getting a safe position (hey bjj guys, position before submission!) you are going to rain punches and blows without proper leverage (thus no damage worth paying attention too), trying to bite and eye gouge yoru attacker (exposing yourself to submissons and not using your hands and head in a way that can help you get a dominate position). This doesn't make sense.

Let's put this in stand up range for a second. I'm going to make some stupid statements.

I do not need to know how to fight standing up because I can just pull the guy down on top of me.

I do not need to know how to fight standing up because I can just eye gouge my attacker.

I do not need to know how to fight standing up because it's just a myth fights start standing.

I do not need to know how to fight standing up because if the guy is beating me senseless I can bite his arm. This will draw him off so I can escape.

I do not need to know how to fight standing up because the principles of bjj can be applied standing just as easy. I mean its just like the ground, only there is nothing on my back.

Maybe (hopefully) these sound silly to you. This is how people sound when they talk about ground fighting. The simple fact is if you end up in a range of fighting you are not prepared for, then you are in trouble. I do not pretend to be able to fight boxers in the standup, but most boxers don't pretend they can beat me on the ground. The trick is, can I get the boxer to the ground before he knocks me out, and can he stay on his feet long enough to knock me out. If I want to make sure I can handle this, I need to go find highlly qualified strikers to spar with. I can't just get my bjj buddys to throw punches at me and say, well I learned how to deal with boxers.

I know a guy who came into our club doing dirty tricks. He would grind his knuckles into your ribs, hit pressure points, push on the bridge of the nose with his palm, etc. He was a karate guy and good at what he did. But by doing all these tricks he always opened up a nice fast submission. While he's busy causing me mild pain, i'm sweeping over the arm he's trying to preasure point me with, now i'm in the mount, and I can have my way with him because he doesn't know how to escape. He reaches across my guard to push on my face and eyes, I move my hips, boom armbar.

Think of it like this. People say aikido works because the attacker is committed to his attack. He makes himself vunarable. That is exactly how bjj works. Everytime you make an attack, you expose yourself. If you are focused on getting anything, you are exposing yourself to a submission. Without sparing to know how to feel out what is happening, and training to know safe and efficent ways of moving the body on the ground, you might as well be throwing lunge punches at O'Sensei.

Uninformed comments tend to make me hate martial arts vs sports in general. Most sport guys are honest about their ablities.

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 01:04 PM
Thank you Don, well done. I couldn't have done it as well, and you save me a bunch of typing!

Best,
Ron

DonMagee
10-31-2006, 01:21 PM
I never miss an oppurtunity to ramble.

Aristeia
10-31-2006, 01:26 PM
Don has ignored the flailing and bite attempts to tap out the correct.

CNYMike
10-31-2006, 02:22 PM
.....I'm not saying that this is true for most or even for many aikidoka, but such people do make fools of themselves on the internet on a fairly regular basis, from what I've seen.

I see. Well, I'm not one of them. It's just my belief, based on the influence of my kali instructors, that there's nothing wrong with any martial art being the way it is; there are perfectly valid reasons why it does things the way it does, and this holds true for everything. That western boxing just has hand techniques, that neither it nor Aikido has kicks -- there's nothing wrong with it. You can critique it,surely, but I try to look at it without being perjoritive one way or the other.

As to how "some Aikidoka" represent themselves, yeah, some sound foolish. But then some arguments are valid. Kicking does leave you vulnerable because you're weight is on one foot; the angles you can move to to evade different kinds of kicks sound reasonable to me. Pulling that off when you've never formally trained against kicks is another matter, but on the other hand, if our hypothetical kicking specialist has never formally trained against what the Aikidoka wants to do, they're even on that score. If our Aikido person has internalized the art's underlying principles, then I think he could make somethng up as he goes along. But he'd have to be really good at it!

Personally, I think reality lies somewhere in between the extremes of "Aikido can handle absolutely anything even if you never train against it" and "Aikido's ok but don't even think of using it for self defense." I just don't know where it is yet; I'm still at a very beginner stage in Aikido. But I think I'll figure it out in time.

Aristeia
10-31-2006, 02:59 PM
I see. Well, I'm not one of them. It's just my belief, based on the influence of my kali instructors, that there's nothing wrong with any martial art being the way it is;I agree. So long as it's proponents are being honest with people about what it is


Personally, I think reality lies somewhere in between the extremes of "Aikido can handle absolutely anything even if you never train against it" and "Aikido's ok but don't even think of using it for self defense." I agree.

CNYMike
10-31-2006, 07:39 PM
I agree. So long as it's proponents are being honest with people about what it isI agree.

Mmmm, I'd stop short of accusing people of being deliberately dishonest (or even sounding like I'm doing it). I don't like to do that, nor do I like to specualte on why people say things online. It's been done to me and I hate it, so I don't like to return the favor. Or try not to, anyway. :o One of the tenants of Aikido is that everyone sees it differently and that's part of your interpretation of the art. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt that people are honest in expressing their perceptions, experiences, and views. Whether they "sound" obnoxious online (God knows there's enough of those) is another matter, but I don't think someone says something I don't agree with is being "dishonest." Who knows? He/she could pin me to the ground like a bug in spite of all the tricks I know. Then who's been made a fool of?

Aristeia
10-31-2006, 09:01 PM
I understand what you're saying there Michael - maybe I didn't express myself clearly.
Take the "aikido doesn't deal with kicks" or "aikido doesn't deal with groundfighting" type arguments. You've responded by saying that each art has the right to be what it is and there's nothing wrong with that. I agree. I've always said Aikido is wonderful and a great art for what it is. Where problems derive are when it is presented as something different.

Aikido as Aikido = great.
Aikido as the ultimate in practical fighting systems = a stretch (the way it is trained in most schools).

In other words I don't think most (sensible) people have any problem with Aikido being Aikido. Where the problems come are when it is claimed to be "all you need for all situations". I've seen this enough both online and in person (from senior ranks) for me to understand why people would be turned off.

Is it an issue of honesty? I think so. In some cases it is people deliberately being dishonest with potential punters, more often its people failing to be honest with themselves. Either way it's a misrepresentation when it happens.

xuzen
10-31-2006, 10:19 PM
Eureka....I got it, I got it!

1) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka does pretty flips and smiles when doing them.
2) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka does pretty flips while wearing pretty skirt. Damm they look good.
3) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka exudes a zen like calmness when attempting to fold a hakama, others lesser beings would have cuss and groan in anger.

This is true story:
Once there was a martial arts demo, and when the aikidoka does their demo, there were lots of ooohs and aaaahs from the crowd. It is very artistic. Come judo's turn, every lay person knows that judo is a sport. So there was a notable absense of the ooohs and aaaahs.

Go figure.

Boon.

happysod
11-01-2006, 02:40 AM
3) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka exudes a zen like calmness when attempting to fold a hakama Point of order your honour, some of us stuff the thing in a bag quickly when no-one is looking and use dry-cleaners.

Just to join in the "don't flail chorus" w.r.t. ground fighting, pain techniques don't work, atemi goes both ways and unbendable arm is also a really stupid thing to try with grappler (yes I tried it). About the only thing I've found that transferred at all well from aikido was actually the relaxation under pressure and being able to centre yourself - as the aikiweb close grappling squad members keep saying, principles not techniques.

Aristeia
11-01-2006, 03:24 AM
aikido gave me prety good base that transferred. And also how to learn. My BJJ org is a hybrid of two groups - one that started as aikidoka (us) and the other that grew out of a karate club. The Karate guy has commented to me a couple of times that the aikidoka seem to pick up the technical niceties of BJJ more quickly. I think because we *don't* spar in Aikido we tend to spend more time looking at very fine detail of technique and that transfers well as a learning style to other arts.

dawolfie
11-01-2006, 06:26 AM
Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join?

There are a few, more vicious pseudo aikido styles out there. Nihon Goshin is kinda like aikido but with a bunch of elbows and punches thrown in. It wasn't my cup of tea, but some people like it. I enjoy the peaceful side, not the ground and pound. Of course that doesn't mean I can't kick someone's butt if I want too. It means I am trying to attain something bigger. :D

Could someone translate Aikido for the "haters"? The word "harmony" is present. Most aikido students are trying to use harmony to develop their technique. This harmony is very difficult to find. It takes many years. Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that, not everyone can blend and harmonize with their opponent.

As far as the "haters" go, when was the last time a real student of aikido went to a BJJ school and made fun of them? I studied BJJ for 5 years before the last 5 years in Aikido. I can clearly see the similarities. The techniques are there, just horizontal, not vertical. I admire anyone who dedicates their life to any martial art. Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?

Jorge Garcia
11-01-2006, 07:39 AM
Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join?

There are a few, more vicious pseudo aikido styles out there. Nihon Goshin is kinda like aikido but with a bunch of elbows and punches thrown in. It wasn't my cup of tea, but some people like it. I enjoy the peaceful side, not the ground and pound. Of course that doesn't mean I can't kick someone's butt if I want too. It means I am trying to attain something bigger. :D

Could someone translate Aikido for the "haters"? The word "harmony" is present. Most aikido students are trying to use harmony to develop their technique. This harmony is very difficult to find. It takes many years. Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that, not everyone can blend and harmonize with their opponent.

As far as the "haters" go, when was the last time a real student of aikido went to a BJJ school and made fun of them? I studied BJJ for 5 years before the last 5 years in Aikido. I can clearly see the similarities. The techniques are there, just horizontal, not vertical. I admire anyone who dedicates their life to any martial art. Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?

Amen. You also wrote," Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?"

That is a more interesting debate. The theme being discussed has been approached over and over from many angles. It seems to me that some really like to rediscuss these types of criticisms, over and over again because it reinforces their personal belief.
There wouldn't be an audience for this if we there were secure in our belief system. I have never cared what other martial art works or doesn't work. I have never cared much even if Aikido works in any given situation. I hope to admire and respect all martial artists and let people find out for themselves the truth they need. Having been in a dojo that has Goju ryu Karate and Hung Fa Yi, I hope to respect and admire them more than criticize since we're all on our own path.
Why do people hate? Because they love to hate. It's fun for them.

Basia Halliop
11-01-2006, 07:47 AM
Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that

I would suspect there are a LOT of people who couldn't break an arm using muscle or force -- especially the arm of any person who would actually look at them and decide to physically attack them. I'm somewhat sceptical if many people who make this claim have actually done it (I've never tried myself -- it's the kind of thing it would be hard to find volunteers for :)).

DonMagee
11-01-2006, 09:32 AM
I would suspect there are a LOT of people who couldn't break an arm using muscle or force -- especially the arm of any person who would actually look at them and decide to physically attack them. I'm somewhat sceptical if many people who make this claim have actually done it (I've never tried myself -- it's the kind of thing it would be hard to find volunteers for :)).

The last MMA show my club had in town had a great fight where this was played out. One of our club members caught his opponenet in a reverse armbar (think traditional judo armbar, only the both people are face down instead of face up). He executed the technique well, the mans arm bent back, then further, and further. You could see the veins bluging out of his elbow and it was hyperextended at least 30 degrees. He then took it even futher, but by this time he was so tired that he gave up the armbar and transitioned to a different position to rest and ground and pound. The round ended and this guy came out the next round swinging punches with this screwed up arm.

At the end of the fight it was obvious his arm was badly injured, but it was not broken. This is why I favor chokes above all else. Any crazy guy can ignore broken bones or dislocated joints. I have yet to meet anyone who can resist lack of bloodflow.

On the other side, I know a fighter who faught two weeks ago who got caught in an ankle lock so harsh that his ankle and knee poped and turned instantly black and blue. He was forced to tap from pain. However, agian, nothing was broken, but he has a long healing process ahead of him.

kironin
11-01-2006, 10:17 AM
which leads us nicely back into the topic of the thread... although to be fair he does have a point about many of the aikido demo vids you can find littering youtube - I still blame the skirt-wearing myself.

Yes, youtube seems to be the new place for 15 minutes of fame. It was the Jerry Springer-like talk shows.

Some of the Iaido videos that have been appearing make you really wonder what possessed them to display that for the world to see.

Aristeia
11-01-2006, 10:22 AM
Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join?
is any one actually saying that?

CNYMike
11-01-2006, 02:25 PM
I understand what you're saying there Michael - maybe I didn't express myself clearly ..... {snip}

Well, I think you've cleared it up quite nicely in the snipped portion; I think we see where each other is coming from and there's no further point to "argue" about it. Thanks!

CNYMike
11-01-2006, 02:41 PM
..... I have never cared what other martial art works or doesn't work. I have never cared much even if Aikido works in any given situation. I hope to admire and respect all martial artists and let people find out for themselves the truth they need. Having been in a dojo that has Goju ryu Karate and Hung Fa Yi, I hope to respect and admire them more than criticize since we're all on our own path .....

Amen to THAT. I like to hold up the example of my Kali instructor, who also is an instructor in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, who far from criticizing my decision to return to Aikido has supported it; he's never denied my joke that he would have dragged me to my first class by my ankles. His instructor, Guro Kevin Seaman, had a plaque on the wall of his old scool with the creed he wanted his students to follow, and the second from last was "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer." So while one can be sucked into such online disucssions more than one should (guilty), we should remember the real world isn't always so contentious, and may be just the opposite.

CNYMike
11-01-2006, 10:30 PM
1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 are major turn offs for me ....

You don't have to do it if you don't like it.

.... I'm notorious on other forums for bashing Aikidoka on other forums for these reasons .....

Point being? I can think of better ways to spend my spare time.

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2006, 09:12 AM
It's fun if you're 15...after that, it's kind of a chore...

B,
R

Erick Mead
11-02-2006, 09:17 AM
notorious ... for bashing Pretty much, a definition of "not aiki" ...

DaveS
11-02-2006, 10:00 AM
His instructor, Guro Kevin Seaman, had a plaque on the wall of his old scool with the creed he wanted his students to follow, and the second from last was "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer." I think there's an important distinction between random bashing and uninformed sniping on the one hand, and informed critical thinking and discussion on the other. And yes, most aikido bashing - and other martial arts trash talk - on the internet falls squarely into the first group. It's about the difference between (for instance) "capoiera sucks and only an idiot would do it" and "capoiera is cool and a lot of fun but probably shouldn't be your first stop if you're mainly after self defence..."

In other words, all styles and systems have something to offer, but we need to think realistically about what that is, and not shy away from saying so because we're afraid of stepping on someone's toes.

CNYMike
11-02-2006, 10:07 AM
Huh?

Come on it's fun.

To each his own; I don't see it.

mriehle
11-02-2006, 10:08 AM
In reference to number 7.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D26GZJwYIE

Hmm...well.

I've read some of Tomiki Sensei's writing. I'm not sure I agree with him in every sense, but what he's trying to get at is correct.

He talks about the importance of randori practice to complement kata practice. Competitions are supposed to be randori as I understand it. Watching this video and a couple of others on the same page, well, not randori. The tanto randori's were particularly disappointing. :disgust:

For the record, if someone is just standing there holding a knife and not threatening me or mine in any way, I'm not going to go out of my way to be stabbed by the knife. :crazy:

Randori is not sparring and sparring is not randori, but good randori addresses many of the same issues that sparring does. The good thing about randori is that you can set ground rules to accomodate the level of nage and increase the challenge as they get better. The bad thing is that sometimes the challenge is never increased and randori stays too polite. :rolleyes:

There's also jiyu waza which - at least in my school - is practiced with no defined uke/nage relationship at dan level. I guess you could call that "competitive", but it never looks or feels that way. In fact, I've discovered in my own practive of jiyu waza that as soon as I get competitive I lose. Every time. I wind up on the mat. Every time. :grr: :uch:

I've heard much the same thing from people who spar. As soon as they let go of the competition and just take care of business they do better in competition. One value of sparring then, IMO, would be learning to get into that mindset in a stressful situation. If that's true, high-level randori and jiyu waza ought to serve as well for at least some of us (and the evidence I've seen supports this contention).

Maybe the idea that there is no competition in regular Aikido is something of a myth? Or maybe it's all in how you define competition?

Aristeia
11-02-2006, 10:32 AM
. It's about the difference between (for instance) "capoiera sucks and only an idiot would do it" and "capoiera is cool and a lot of fun but probably shouldn't be your first stop if you're mainly after self defence..."

In other words, all styles and systems have something to offer, but we need to think realistically about what that is, and not shy away from saying so because we're afraid of stepping on someone's toes.
10 points to David he has nailed it. and oftentimes what we see is somebody taking the latter approach and the faithful responding as if they were taking the former. I would say 90% of these type of online discussions are characterised by either over aggressiveness (bashing) or over defensiveness (fighting the straw man).

Guilty Spark
11-02-2006, 11:30 AM
'm notorious on other forums for bashing Aikidoka on other forums for these reasons

I've heard we make fun of others for what we fear most about ourselves.
When i was younger I was probably deep in the bashing crowd (for various other things, not MA).
I'd like to think either age has opened my eyes or aikido has.
Given the fact that there are still "older" dudes out there who continue to fixate (sp?) on bashing people just for the sake of bashing, I'm thinking aikido probably had a bigger effect.

I asked for reasons why people hate aikido so I'm not gonna harp on ya Mr Jones for your answer nor am i going to be all peace and love do unto others but I think you'll really appreciate aikido more and life in general when you stop caring so much about what other people do, what they choose to do with their time and whether they want to emulate a culture or not.


I agree, people hate (aikido) because they love to hate.

Aristeia
11-02-2006, 11:39 AM
10) Many Aikidoka have a Japanee fetish. I've been told personally by people that they started Aikido because they have an interest in Japanese culture. There was even a thread on here a while ago "How Samurai is Aikido" I can go on and on about this but you get what I'm saying so I'll stop.is there something wrong with an interest in another culture?

CNYMike
11-03-2006, 10:37 AM
.... Maybe the idea that there is no competition in regular Aikido is something of a myth? Or maybe it's all in how you define competition?

My Kali instructor is always yelling at me not to try and "win" when I spar. So you can be competitive without even realizing it. Incidents like that give validity to "True vicory is victory over the self."

DonMagee
11-03-2006, 12:37 PM
My Kali instructor is always yelling at me not to try and "win" when I spar. So you can be competitive without even realizing it. Incidents like that give validity to "True vicory is victory over the self."

I never try to win, I just try to be the last guy standing. :D

Seriously though, I try to play at the level of my partner, unless i'm getting ready for competition, then I try to win everytime.

Ron Tisdale
11-03-2006, 12:38 PM
True victory is victory over the floor. If you layin' on it, you lose.

Best,
Ron

jennifer paige smith
01-31-2008, 03:10 PM
They are all jealous. :p

Yeah. " Don't hate me cuz I'm beautiful":D .

Funny tought came to me....

observations:

1) Many people(not all) respond to love with anger.

2) Nature is feared (Again, by many, not by all).

hmmmm

jennifer paige smith
01-31-2008, 03:12 PM
True victory is victory over the floor. If you layin' on it, you lose.

Best,
Ron

Unless you makin' love. Then if you layin' on it, you win.;)

Aikibu
01-31-2008, 05:24 PM
Unless you makin' love. Then if you layin' on it, you win.;)

I am Not Ready to give up on the trapeze yet. :D

William Hazen

gdandscompserv
01-31-2008, 06:19 PM
Unless you makin' love. Then if you layin' on it, you win.;)
Win win!
:D

gregg block
02-02-2008, 09:21 AM
#1 Who cares what other people think. #2 All martial arts are effective its individual practitioners and poor teachers that are ineffective #3 Shallow brooks are noisy, those who shoot off their mouths the most are generally skilled the least. #4 A good martial artist understands # 1, #2 & #3. OMHO.

Joseph Madden
02-02-2008, 07:08 PM
Some of the aspects of aikido that I dislike.

1. Egotism-If u don't believe it exists in your dojo, you've taken to many hits to the head. I can't speak for all schools of the art but at my dojo we definitely have some who believe their Elvis (I know, he practiced Karate, but go along with the analogy).

2. Lack of competition- I think this is something that needs to change.

3. This "idea" that aikido is a samurai art and is therefore at the top in the heap in the martial arts. Bull@#$%

:o

mathewjgano
02-02-2008, 07:52 PM
Some of the aspects of aikido that I dislike.

1. Egotism-If u don't believe it exists in your dojo, you've taken to many hits to the head. I can't speak for all schools of the art but at my dojo we definitely have some who believe their Elvis (I know, he practiced Karate, but go along with the analogy).

2. Lack of competition- I think this is something that needs to change.

3. This "idea" that aikido is a samurai art and is therefore at the top in the heap in the martial arts. Bull@#$%

:o

1. Egotism is everywhere humans are. The more comfortable people get with their chosen activities, it seems the more egotistical they get too (eg-I've seen it in every activity I've taken part in, from paintball to chess). Do you think this is exceptionally present in the Aikido world?

2. I don't think it needs to change. I think if number one were less of a human condition, this would be less of a problem.

3. This is really just number one all over again isn't it? I've never actually met anyone I know of who thinks Aikido is the "top" martial art except in a very relative/personal sense. I've seen lots of posts on places like youtube which express this kind of thing, but I usually get the sense they're very young...and usually I see this coming from non-Aikidoka more often.

If I had to pick something I dislike about "Aikido," I'd say it was the subtle nature of its movements, but then again they challenge me and that's only a good thing. Any other things I dislike aren't Aikido traits, they're human ones which can be found anywhere...so far as I can tell. To my mind this doesn't really say much about Aikido beyond the fact that it's simply not for everyone.

Chenstar058
02-02-2008, 08:54 PM
did u know Osensei's son put a disgrace on Aikido?? He stole the dojo from the person Osensei trusted who can pass Aikido down. And his son has made his own styles of Aikido and heeps other ppl did too. (Hombu, Yoshinkan)

now heres my point, We had a Iwama white belt and a Humbu 4th dan training together. The Hombu tried a technique on the White belt but just didn't work when the whit belt did it, its worked. I saw it with my own eyes trust me.

Iwama was the original style and the "best" style, the techniques were correct and teaching method was correct.

but now Aikid has so many styles, and many of which is worse than Iwama and so people think AIkido is bad, but Aikido the real one, is actually the best martial art ever =D XD

Joseph Madden
02-02-2008, 09:21 PM
1. Egotism is everywhere humans are. The more comfortable people get with their chosen activities, it seems the more egotistical they get too (eg-I've seen it in every activity I've taken part in, from paintball to chess). Do you think this is exceptionally present in the Aikido world?

2. I don't think it needs to change. I think if number one were less of a human condition, this would be less of a problem.

3. This is really just number one all over again isn't it? I've never actually met anyone I know of who thinks Aikido is the "top" martial art except in a very relative/personal sense. I've seen lots of posts on places like youtube which express this kind of thing, but I usually get the sense they're very young...and usually I see this coming from non-Aikidoka more often.

If I had to pick something I dislike about "Aikido," I'd say it was the subtle nature of its movements, but then again they challenge me and that's only a good thing. Any other things I dislike aren't Aikido traits, they're human ones which can be found anywhere...so far as I can tell. To my mind this doesn't really say much about Aikido beyond the fact that it's simply not for everyone.

I'd agree to an extent Matt, but the way aikido is promoted in some circles(including this forum) many are led to believe that you will
be protected from the politics of the outside world when in actuality
the dojo just becomes another microcosm(it may be different in some countries).

I'll have to politely disagree with regards to competition. This is something that would give aikido a less insular feel to it if people
can actually see aikidoists competing. When the MMA first started
there were many aikidoka who were handed their hats to them in the ring because of that lack of competition (my opinion).

I've seen to many webpages devoted to the superiority of aikido over other arts to agree with the last answer. And not all of these practitioners are young or new to the art.

OSU

Guilty Spark
02-03-2008, 01:08 AM
Iwama was the original style and the "best" style, the techniques were correct and teaching method was correct.

So Iwama is the best and all others basically suck is what you're saying in a nutshell?

I've defended myself successfully with Yoshinkan, I'm quite content with it. I think you need to spend more time on the matt. (Maybe even put a book or two down)

grondahl
02-03-2008, 02:39 AM
Hey, Iwama style is good but you really need to get out more if you think that one style have a monopoly on producing good practitioners. And bashing other practitioners and styles is really a disgrace to your instructor and dojo, apparently they dont teach you proper reigi.

did u know Osensei's son put a disgrace on Aikido?? He stole the dojo from the person Osensei trusted who can pass Aikido down. And his son has made his own styles of Aikido and heeps other ppl did too. (Hombu, Yoshinkan)

now heres my point, We had a Iwama white belt and a Humbu 4th dan training together. The Hombu tried a technique on the White belt but just didn't work when the whit belt did it, its worked. I saw it with my own eyes trust me.

Iwama was the original style and the "best" style, the techniques were correct and teaching method was correct.

but now Aikid has so many styles, and many of which is worse than Iwama and so people think AIkido is bad, but Aikido the real one, is actually the best martial art ever =D XD

Dieter Haffner
02-03-2008, 07:23 AM
I think mister Chen forgot to add ....:D
It would have been a good laugh.

mathewjgano
02-03-2008, 12:16 PM
I'd agree to an extent Matt, but the way aikido is promoted in some circles(including this forum) many are led to believe that you will
be protected from the politics of the outside world when in actuality
the dojo just becomes another microcosm(it may be different in some countries).

I'll have to politely disagree with regards to competition. This is something that would give aikido a less insular feel to it if people
can actually see aikidoists competing. When the MMA first started
there were many aikidoka who were handed their hats to them in the ring because of that lack of competition (my opinion).

I've seen to many webpages devoted to the superiority of aikido over other arts to agree with the last answer. And not all of these practitioners are young or new to the art.

OSU

You may well be right. I tend to be pretty hit and miss with what I check out online.
As for competition I certainly see the value in it. I also agree with the idea that competition can distract greatly, but only as much as the individual allows. I don't think it's necessary to Aikido, but I do understand what you're saying about it removing that insular feel.

mathewjgano
02-03-2008, 12:26 PM
...I think you need to spend more time on the matt.

Hmmm...somewhere in here there's a joke or two, but I'm afraid what they might be:p

Guilty Spark
02-03-2008, 05:22 PM
Hmmm...somewhere in here there's a joke or two, but I'm afraid what they might be:p

Honestly I think Angus actually brings attention back to my initial question: why do some people hate aikido.

Attitude.

Now I may be wrong but Angus very much sounds like someone new to Aikido who read up on a lot of the literature and swallowed every word. Then turns around and preaches it like gospel.

I think thats really the only thing I don't like about Aikido, the internet/book club 'enlightened' people who regurgitate everything they hear or read but don't really understand what their saying.

In many cases I figure these new students are so overjoyed at finding aikido that they preach and with poor delivery end up turning people against aikido.

mathewjgano
02-03-2008, 05:52 PM
I think thats really the only thing I don't like about Aikido, the internet/book club 'enlightened' people who regurgitate everything they hear or read but don't really understand what their saying.

In many cases I figure these new students are so overjoyed at finding aikido that they preach and with poor delivery end up turning people against aikido.
It certainly doesn't help...and I know I've been guilty of a bit of that in the past...at least, with regard to competition. I dislike this kind of behavior as well. I just take exception with the idea that this kind of thing is particular to Aikido...though maybe that's not what folks have been saying.
Frankly, I dislike most nay-saying. In my opinion it's far more useful (generally speaking) to speak of what's useful in something than of what is not, though both have their place.

Chenstar058
02-03-2008, 11:29 PM
each style has an emphasis on different things, but hey, all i'm saying is wat i've seen, Iwama is the real deal LOL i think Yoshinkan and everything is great for self defense, but Aikido is not JUST self defense

ITs a Martial art, but when ppl say Aikido sucks and start to hate it, Its because the real and original Aikido has been changing into different styles and stuff. Honbu and Yoshinkan and others r great but to be honest with u ppl, Iwama is better LOL

but wats better also depends on the person, maybe he has faster reflexes and stuff so yea, it depends.

And also alot of people find other martial arts better like Karate and Taekwondo, personally, i do not think they r real martial arts, the philosophy and action is totally not martial.

mathewjgano
02-04-2008, 12:01 AM
each style has an emphasis on different things, but hey, all i'm saying is wat i've seen
So...what kind of experiences have you had then? By "seen" I'm assuming you have interacted with all those different styles of Aikido directly; for an extended period of time?

And also alot of people find other martial arts better like Karate and Taekwondo, personally, i do not think they r real martial arts, the philosophy and action is totally not martial.
That's interesting. Respectfully, I completely disagree, but I'm curious what it is exactly that IS martial, but which those other arts don't have in your opinion.

Guilty Spark
02-04-2008, 12:43 AM
Just to get an idea here Angus, how long have you been training in Aikido?

And as Matthew asks, when you say "seen" what are you talking about? Demo's you've attended in real life, physically training with students from other styles or what you've seen on the net/youtube?

roman naly
02-04-2008, 01:14 AM
did u know Osensei's son put a disgrace on Aikido?? He stole the dojo from the person Osensei trusted who can pass Aikido down. And his son has made his own styles of Aikido and heeps other ppl did too. (Hombu, Yoshinkan)

now heres my point, We had a Iwama white belt and a Humbu 4th dan training together. The Hombu tried a technique on the White belt but just didn't work when the whit belt did it, its worked. I saw it with my own eyes trust me.

Iwama was the original style and the "best" style, the techniques were correct and teaching method was correct.

but now Aikid has so many styles, and many of which is worse than Iwama and so people think AIkido is bad, but Aikido the real one, is actually the best martial art ever =D XD

HERE WE GO AGAIN

xuzen
02-04-2008, 02:46 AM
each style has an emphasis on different things, but hey, all i'm saying is wat i've seen, Iwama is the real deal LOL i think Yoshinkan and everything is great for self defense, but Aikido is not JUST self defense

ITs a Martial art, but when ppl say Aikido sucks and start to hate it, Its because the real and original Aikido has been changing into different styles and stuff. Honbu and Yoshinkan and others r great but to be honest with u ppl, Iwama is better LOL

but wats better also depends on the person, maybe he has faster reflexes and stuff so yea, it depends.

And also alot of people find other martial arts better like Karate and Taekwondo, personally, i do not think they r real martial arts, the philosophy and action is totally not martial.

Iwana is the AW3S0M3N3SS (TM) if only you are carrying a little broom stick.

Boon.

Kevin Leavitt
02-04-2008, 04:38 AM
I don't worry about it, since I can kick everyone's butt anyway, so it does not matter because whatever aikido I do...mine is the best!

I don't do it with fast reflexes or speed, or strength (unless I want to). I usually just stare at them really hard and they give up.

Sometimes, if I am really angry, I generate so much power that I have to hold it back cause just the static electricity that builds up in my body is enough to induce heart failure. I did use it once as an AED to help a guy out that was having a heart attack, so that "negative" energy does have some good uses I guess.

Sensei told me that is was wrong to use my powers for my own self gain and that I needed to let people make mistakes and figure things our for themselves and that I should only use "our" style of aikido when someone is really in trouble, like they are going to jump off a bridge, or they are crossing the street in front of a car or something.

It is hard to do this though, because sometimes I realize that I do have to use my strength, power, and speed to stop a guy from getting in front of a car. (I guess if they are not looking at me, or know that I am present, then I can't use my "evil stare" to stop them). So there has been a few people I could not help! It made me sad.

So, anyway, i usually choose to not use my aiki powers, and we usually keep them secret from everyone else for these reason. Also, if everyone found out how awesome we where and how good my sensei really was, well then, we would not have time to train our own powers as everyone would want to come. besides....how special would we be if we let everyone in on our secrets?

It is a huge responsibility and a very hard burden to study our form of aikido, but I know it is the best, and I am glad that Sensei allows me to study it!

ps. don't tell him I wrote this here...he would not like it and will make me form a thousand KI balls which is very tiring.

SeiserL
02-04-2008, 05:37 AM
Ego.
If it matches for what I want, its right/good, love it.
If it doesn't match for me, its wrong/bad, hate it.
Don't take their opinion/preference personally.

Ketsan
02-04-2008, 06:17 AM
I don't worry about it, since I can kick everyone's butt anyway, so it does not matter because whatever aikido I do...mine is the best!

I don't do it with fast reflexes or speed, or strength (unless I want to). I usually just stare at them really hard and they give up.

Sometimes, if I am really angry, I generate so much power that I have to hold it back cause just the static electricity that builds up in my body is enough to induce heart failure. I did use it once as an AED to help a guy out that was having a heart attack, so that "negative" energy does have some good uses I guess.

Sensei told me that is was wrong to use my powers for my own self gain and that I needed to let people make mistakes and figure things our for themselves and that I should only use "our" style of aikido when someone is really in trouble, like they are going to jump off a bridge, or they are crossing the street in front of a car or something.

It is hard to do this though, because sometimes I realize that I do have to use my strength, power, and speed to stop a guy from getting in front of a car. (I guess if they are not looking at me, or know that I am present, then I can't use my "evil stare" to stop them). So there has been a few people I could not help! It made me sad.

So, anyway, i usually choose to not use my aiki powers, and we usually keep them secret from everyone else for these reason. Also, if everyone found out how awesome we where and how good my sensei really was, well then, we would not have time to train our own powers as everyone would want to come. besides....how special would we be if we let everyone in on our secrets?

It is a huge responsibility and a very hard burden to study our form of aikido, but I know it is the best, and I am glad that Sensei allows me to study it!

ps. don't tell him I wrote this here...he would not like it and will make me form a thousand KI balls which is very tiring.

Yeah, but were you taught in the mountains by a tengu? :D

xuzen
02-04-2008, 06:55 AM
I don't worry about it, since I can kick everyone's butt anyway, so it does not matter because whatever aikido I do...mine is the best!

I don't do it with fast reflexes or speed, or strength (unless I want to). I usually just stare at them really hard and they give up.

Sometimes, if I am really angry, I generate so much power that I have to hold it back cause just the static electricity that builds up in my body is enough to induce heart failure. I did use it once as an AED to help a guy out that was having a heart attack, so that "negative" energy does have some good uses I guess.

Sensei told me that is was wrong to use my powers for my own self gain and that I needed to let people make mistakes and figure things our for themselves and that I should only use "our" style of aikido when someone is really in trouble, like they are going to jump off a bridge, or they are crossing the street in front of a car or something.

It is hard to do this though, because sometimes I realize that I do have to use my strength, power, and speed to stop a guy from getting in front of a car. (I guess if they are not looking at me, or know that I am present, then I can't use my "evil stare" to stop them). So there has been a few people I could not help! It made me sad.

So, anyway, i usually choose to not use my aiki powers, and we usually keep them secret from everyone else for these reason. Also, if everyone found out how awesome we where and how good my sensei really was, well then, we would not have time to train our own powers as everyone would want to come. besides....how special would we be if we let everyone in on our secrets?

It is a huge responsibility and a very hard burden to study our form of aikido, but I know it is the best, and I am glad that Sensei allows me to study it!

ps. don't tell him I wrote this here...he would not like it and will make me form a thousand KI balls which is very tiring.

Silly Otaku

Boon.

dbotari
02-04-2008, 07:19 AM
When the MMA first started
there were many aikidoka who were handed their hats to them in the ring because of that lack of competition (my opinion).

OSU

Who are they? As far as I am aware no one who has competed in MMA, specifically the UFC, has identified themselves as an "aikido" practitioner. I could be wrong, so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks,

Dan

xuzen
02-04-2008, 07:30 AM
Who are they? As far as I am aware no one who has competed in MMA, specifically the UFC, who identified themselves as an "aikido" practitioner. I could be wrong, so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks,

Dan

Read in somewhere in the internet:

IIRC there were a couple of Tomiki players who tried their hand in the early UFC, and was very quickly owned by the ground game of the BJJ' er.

The fact was, many different type of martial artist were equally owned by the ground players during the early phase.

I think it was more attributed to them not accustomed to the newaza aspect of fighting.

Subsequently, there has not been any real/pure aikido players in the scene. Jason DeLucia probably is the only one I can think of in the circuit, but even he is not a pure aikido-ka.

I know aikido has never produce MMA/Pride/UFC type celebrity, and it was quickly assumed by the martial art world that lack of evidence = lack of effectiveness.

Boon.

Bronson
02-04-2008, 01:58 PM
Yeah, but were you taught in the mountains by a tengu? :D

Kevin, didn't your Sensei recently promote you to the rank of Tengu?

Bronson ;)

Joseph Madden
02-04-2008, 02:35 PM
Who are they? As far as I am aware no one who has competed in MMA, specifically the UFC, has identified themselves as an "aikido" practitioner. I could be wrong, so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,
I was referring to the early days of UFC, in the mid 90's when there
were some aikidoka who where defeated by BJJ's(specifically the Gracies).

OSU:D

Ron Tisdale
02-04-2008, 02:37 PM
Hi Joseph,

But what were their names? I mean, if they competed, there must be some record of it. What were their names, what was their record, how many times did they compete?

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
02-04-2008, 03:31 PM
I had my ass owned by a BJJer, but that was in 2003. guess what?

I now study BJJ. Still get my ass owned. (Ask me how I did in the European Championships in Lisbon this past weekend...NOT!)

However, having a better understanding of a broader range of perspecitve/paradigm...I am able to discuss things much more intelligently and proficiently today...than I could of 4 years ago!

Translated: I talk less out of my ass about such subject today, than I did in 2003.

Joseph Madden
02-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Ron,

Some of these aikidoka where Yoshinkan. Read Angry White Pajama
for additional info.

OSU

P.S.
As Xu mentioned earlier, there where various martial artists
who tried to defeat the BJJ's and couldn't do it. However, I
still believe you would fare better in a fight with multiple attackers
with aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
02-04-2008, 05:10 PM
multiple opponents....fare better? why is that? What assumptions are you making as to why one training methodology would fare better than another? Different people...i'd by, but based on style or methodology?

Aristeia
02-04-2008, 05:28 PM
hmm...it's been a while since I read Angry White PJs but I'd lay down a dollop of cash that it doesn't mention anything about matches between aikidoka and BJJers....

Kevin Leavitt
02-04-2008, 06:02 PM
I think part of the problem here is that BJJ and MMA are being used interchangeably as synonyms. They are not the same necessarily.

Joseph Madden
02-04-2008, 06:09 PM
hmm...it's been a while since I read Angry White PJs but I'd lay down a dollop of cash that it doesn't mention anything about matches between aikidoka and BJJers....

And you'd win that bet Michael. My bad. There is a mention of one of the student instructors in the senshusei course named Paul who gets chocked out by Royce during a seminar, and not during an actual match.

Pages 254/255.

OSU:o

xuzen
02-04-2008, 10:14 PM
did u know Osensei's son put a disgrace on Aikido?? He stole the dojo from the person Osensei trusted who can pass Aikido down. And his son has made his own styles of Aikido and heeps other ppl did too. (Hombu, Yoshinkan)

now heres my point, We had a Iwama white belt and a Humbu 4th dan training together. The Hombu tried a technique on the White belt but just didn't work when the whit belt did it, its worked. I saw it with my own eyes trust me.

Iwama was the original style and the "best" style, the techniques were correct and teaching method was correct.

but now Aikid has so many styles, and many of which is worse than Iwama and so people think AIkido is bad, but Aikido the real one, is actually the best martial art ever =D XD

each style has an emphasis on different things, but hey, all i'm saying is wat i've seen, Iwama is the real deal LOL i think Yoshinkan and everything is great for self defense, but Aikido is not JUST self defense

ITs a Martial art, but when ppl say Aikido sucks and start to hate it, Its because the real and original Aikido has been changing into different styles and stuff. Honbu and Yoshinkan and others r great but to be honest with u ppl, Iwama is better LOL

but wats better also depends on the person, maybe he has faster reflexes and stuff so yea, it depends.

And also alot of people find other martial arts better like Karate and Taekwondo, personally, i do not think they r real martial arts, the philosophy and action is totally not martial.

Gayest Post 3V4!!!!

Boon.

Aristeia
02-05-2008, 01:23 AM
And you'd win that bet Michael. My bad. There is a mention of one of the student instructors in the senshusei course named Paul who gets chocked out by Royce during a seminar, and not during an actual match.

Pages 254/255.

OSU:o
right you are.

DonMagee
02-05-2008, 06:18 AM
multiple opponents....fare better? why is that? What assumptions are you making as to why one training methodology would fare better than another? Different people...i'd by, but based on style or methodology?

I always fair better when I'm in a group of attackers. In fact, I can't think of a single time me and my friends have failed to win a fight with one guy. :D

I'm thinking of seeing about getting us all tire irons, just to make it more interesting.

happysod
02-05-2008, 07:23 AM
I'm thinking of seeing about getting us all tire irons..Don, this just shows your total lack of breeding and sportmanship - typical yank - at least use nunchuks so the prey has a sporting chance, it's the thrill of the chase don'tcha know that gets the heart pounding and impresses the fillies... (oh, and have one of the valets keep a shotgun handy just in case the peasant has the audacity to bolt)

Ron Tisdale
02-05-2008, 08:13 AM
You guys are so passe...you should use a banana...or maybe a pointed stick... :D

B,
R

Will Prusner
02-05-2008, 08:15 AM
I'm thinking of seeing about getting us all tire irons, just to make it more interesting.

Please consider mohawks and switchblades instead of tire irons.:D

phitruong
02-05-2008, 10:05 AM
Don, this just shows your total lack of breeding and sportmanship - typical yank - at least use nunchuks so the prey has a sporting chance, it's the thrill of the chase don'tcha know that gets the heart pounding and impresses the fillies... (oh, and have one of the valets keep a shotgun handy just in case the peasant has the audacity to bolt)

Ian, that's just cruel and unusual punishment, giving the prey nunchuks and asking he/she to defend against Don's tire-iron-wielding-skirt-wearing attackers. I am sure Don folks would stand around snickering and taking bets to see when the poor sod going to knock him/herself out. I liked Don's approach in self-defense, safety in numbers and well armed.
Also, we don't use valets to keep the shotguns, our women handle that. why do you think we wage war in foreign lands? it's safer over there. :)

Sorry Jun, did not want to go off the topic, but the "devil's fire" made me do it.

mikebalko
02-05-2008, 04:37 PM
It's not that people hate aikido, they hate the people who are dan ranked in aikido but who can't physically demonstrate what they preach about without uke cooperation and assistance. Aikido instructors who try to convince modern, educated people that aikido trumps the laws of physics. People who have completely misinterpreted the founder's deep philosophical meanderings at the end of his life and as a result go from being regular hippies to being teriyaki flavored hippies who spew out enough propaganda that the masses think that aikido is the unnatural, anti survival nonsense they are blathering about. The people who practice revisionist history. Aikido sensei who have 40 years of aikido training yet still understand nothing of the historical rationale of the techniques and as result demonstrate irimi nage or ikkyo at the wrong maai as suitable defenses to a boxing combination/flurry and adopt "aikido principles" to newaza. I could go on all day. As a long time and current martial arts/aikido practitioner I say that hatred of these things is not only completely justified but a good and healthy reaction. The longer you practice, the longer the list gets. If you want to accelerate the process, aikido message boards are definately the way to go!

mathewjgano
02-05-2008, 06:31 PM
Aikido sensei who...adopt "aikido principles" to newaza.

Is that to mean Aikido principles can't be applied to newaza, or are you saying people hate it when folks apply a false understanding of them?

Kevin Leavitt
02-06-2008, 04:19 AM
Good post Mike. I think you are correct on a perspective. The other side of the coin though is this:

Even if you have a 40 year Shihan that could be doing everything correctly, people will still hear what they want to hear, and attempt to turn this into something it is not attempting to make it fit into whatever delusion they are attempting to feed for themselves.

I tend to not be so hard on the 40 year shihans these days, but more on the individuals since when you get down to it, it is not the institution that is failing the individual, but the individual that is failing themselves within the institution of aikido.

To be successful, really in anything in life, we have to begin with an end in mind. Know why we are training, and make sure that the things we are trying to master to achieve that endstate are actually the right things to be spending our time on.

I bet that a bunch of us out there in our budo practice cannot really articulate rationally why we are doing this thing called aikido!

So, is the system failing the individual, or is the individual failing him/her self?

Looking back at your post, I now realize that we are saying the same thing! :)

delusion is a bitch!

Rick Berry
02-06-2008, 10:23 AM
The sense I get is that sometimes Aikido may look, or rather seem fake. After a beginner steps on the mat and has great difficulty in executing techniques, the instructor may tell the beginner's partner to soften up a bit to allow movement to completion. The beginner then starts to improve then goes out and attempts to demonstrate his newfound skills, and the problems begin. He experiences resistance and quite naturally attempts to use more strength to complete the technique, fails and the rumors begin. Aikido does not work.
Many years ago, a Tae Kwon Do master who knew I had been practicing Tae Kwon Do for 20 years, found out that I was studying Aikido. He asked me: Why do you study aikido? Aikido doesn't work. I chose not explain and left his ignorance intact.

Ultimately, it is a problem of the ego and/or flaws in temperament in those who demonstrate a dislike for something they know little about. I had a conversation with a former co-worker who said this: "I hate the Dallas Cowboys." ( He is an Philadelphia Eagles fan) I asked him if he knew anyone on the Dallas team and he said no. My questions on this idea; (1) How can you hate someone you do not know and have had no experience or interactions with? (2) What does that attitude teach his children? (3) Could this parental attitude be responsible for so much negativity,hatefulness and violence in today's youth and adults?

Aikibu
02-06-2008, 02:03 PM
All I know is that I have seen too much to buy into hating anything except folks who hate everything...Especially self proclaimed internet based "experts."

I just ignore most of them. :D

William Hazen

That's all we need is four more years of folks hating on each other or using hate and fear as a tool to maintain power.

I guess you know who I am voting for and if you ever heard the man in person The you too could hope that all of us can someday drop this kind of BS and move on to helping each other get better at whatever Martial Art we "lOVE".

Allen Beebe
02-06-2008, 03:35 PM
Here are 10 reasons for my hating Aikido (Not necessarily in order and not necessarily my top 10):

1) Every time I tie on my hakama I immediately have to pee.

2) The harder and longer I practice the more I realize my limitations and faults.

3) Even though my body is breaking down I'm happier training than when I am not training.

4) My Aikido students walk into my house (even if I lock the door) and drink my beer without asking. (Although usually they ask if I want one too.)

5) My Aikido students learn what I teach them to the extent that they delight in hurting me and force me to realize my limitations and faults and won't stop rubbing my nose in it until I improve enough that they can no-longer do so . . . AND THEN they expect me to teach them how to do it again!

6) I never was as good as "I used to be" and probably will never be as good as I want to be, and I don't feel as good about what I have accomplished as I expected to feel about it in the first place.

7) Where's the love? Where's the peace? (Not where's the fridge!)

8) My 1 1/2 year old son does my solo body exercises better than I do.

9) Anytime somebody wants to pick a fight with me and I warn them that I've trained in the deadly martial art of Aikido for decades, they walk away laughing . . . and I never get to try out any of my cool moves! (Which I'm absolutely convinced will work as practiced as long as they a) attack with proper intent and form, and b) properly realize that one strike can kill in Aikido and behave accordingly.)

10) I met my wife, became a Buddhist priest, met most of my best friends, got my first job, earned higher educational degrees, get to travel around the world, and have received a host of other cherished benefits all through Aikido . . . and I HATE Aikido! (For all of the above reasons and probably others too . . .) How sucky is that?

George S. Ledyard
02-06-2008, 03:41 PM
Allen,
You are a kick!!!
- George

Allen Beebe
02-06-2008, 03:48 PM
George,

Thanks! :)

Allen

mathewjgano
02-06-2008, 04:03 PM
So, is the system failing the individual, or is the individual failing him/her self?
I'd guess that it's a bit of both in these cases. Buyer beware; always. Even with the best of intentions from a teacher, people can't assume they're going to get everything they expect to receive, whether it's the ability to fight or anything else I can think of. There has to be some objective mechanism for measure.

Aikibu
02-06-2008, 04:45 PM
10) I met my wife, became a Buddhist priest, met most of my best friends, got my first job, earned higher educational degrees, get to travel around the world, and have received a host of other cherished benefits all through Aikido . . . and I HATE Aikido! (For all of the above reasons and probably others too . . .) How sucky is that?

You know Allen...Denile is not a river in Egypt. :D

It must be really "sucky" to be you! LOL :D

William Hazen

Allen Beebe
02-06-2008, 10:50 PM
You know Allen...Denile is not a river in Egypt. :D

It must be really "sucky" to be you! LOL :D

William Hazen

You betcha!

BTW, I really like this quote:

“Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live in joy.”
Joseph Campbell

Lloyd Heggestad
02-24-2008, 08:53 AM
As I was reading this thread my daughter, who was playing a board game called "Apples to Apples" asked me what "Apples to Apples" meant. As I began to explain the idiom, "Comparing Apples to Oranges", I realized this is what this thread is about; and this is why this and similar threads go on ad nauseam. To see how this idiom applies to this discussion check out this explanation from Wikipedia:

"Apples and oranges" refers to the idiom "comparing apples and oranges" or "apples to oranges", which is used to indicate that two items or groups of items have not been validly compared. The idiom evokes the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an "apple" is faulted for not being a good "orange." Conversely, where the comparison or analogy is valid, the idiom will usually take the form "comparing apples with apples".

Will it never end?

CNYMike
02-24-2008, 11:15 PM
Will it never end?

Probably not, so the trick is to learn how to live with that. I find it helps to remember how many times I have had such discussions in the real world: Exactly none. And I'd rather practice Aikido than argue about it.

... hey, that's the most coherent I can be at 1:14 AM!

Stefan Stenudd
02-27-2008, 03:09 PM
It may already have been said above, but my impression is that most of the outspoken disrespect for aikido comes from people who do not practice any martial art at all. That makes them very sure of which one is the best, and which one the worst.

For example, when I check the channels of those who write the most rude and dead-certain comments on my YouTube aikido videos, they never have any martial arts videos of their own.

People who actually practice have a much more nuanced and ambiguous view on it all.
I have been fortunate to meet many very prominent practitioners of other martial arts, and I found none of them hateful toward aikido. Quite the contrary.

eric_lecaptain
02-27-2008, 08:41 PM
They are all jealous. :p

yeah!! there just jealous cause they dont get to wear a hakama!
oh wait, neither do i, er.... aah man! :)

d2l
02-28-2008, 12:24 PM
I think pretty much everyone on here defending the nature and aspects of Aikido or the more violent form Aikijutsu, is time on target. My biggest beef is with the nay sayers out there who say Aikido does NOT work in real life. I strongly disagree. Perhaps this stems from fancy demos where nobody gets hurt. Or what little they know of the training in which you ensure your Uke does not get hurt. As a Nage, it is my job in the Dojo to ensure I don't cripple or life flight my Uke. In my indroduction, I pointed out that I have been a Soldier, and I work in a prison. I have seen and done many violent things. When ever I had to "spar" against someone, or be in the center of a Rendori, my Sensai took note of how rough and overly violent I was with other Deshi. As stated in my intro, he pulled me aside and told me we are all here to learn. And that this was not a battlefield or a prison. He realized this is how I was trained. Either do or die. He let me know that it was also my job to protect other students and to take great care to ensure they did not get hurt. This had a profound effect on me. In the Dojo, be kind and gentle. In the prison (and outside world), be as kind as gentle as can be. But when this does not work, by all means do what needs to be done. I have found that dealing with the most violent people (if thats what you want to call them) can be subdued with techiniques that nay sayers say don't work in real life. I think they fail to understand that training in a Dojo, and appliyng techiniques to the real deal, are two different things. Because Aikido tends to be more of a passive art, I think people get the wrong idea. And thus sparks the debate of why people "hate" or say Aikido does not work in real life. :)

Aristeia
02-28-2008, 05:20 PM
. I think they fail to understand that training in a Dojo, and appliyng techiniques to the real deal, are two different things. I think this has hit the nail. Do I think Aikido can work? Absolutely! The problems people have with it are due to training method. i.e. there is a significant gap between the dojo application and the street application. Whereas other "live" arts still have a gap, but it is much smaller. What that gap means is, you will still get people who make Aikido effective, but alot is left down to the individual to be able to bridge that gap. I think that's why you tend to hear more "it's the person not the art" statements from co-operative arts like Aikido than you do from live arts like bjj. Because in a co-operative art it is absolutely true - take 20 blackbelts and you will get huge variation in what they can do in a given live situation. Whereas in a live art,10 bluebelts in BJJ you will have a much clearer idea what their capabilities are likely to be imo.

I don't think that is necessarily a good reason for "hating" aikido but I think it is a part of the phenomenum.

Phischy
03-05-2008, 11:04 AM
Here's a question for you: Why do you care what other people think?

Are you happy with your training and the benefits to your life?

I sure am. I understand the general philosophy of Aikido and what O'Sensei was trying to do after having read about his life. Part of being "At Peace" is to avoid all the background noise in life that doesn't pertain to your own well being. If someone is screaming at me that Aikido is useless, I can ignore that person and continue on with my day. I'm only going to take noitce when I see the first fist/foot/baseball bat come swinging at me.

Do what you do, ignore everyone else. Getting upset about what some random idiot thinks builds tension within, filtering out life's noise is the best thing Aikido has taught me to do. On occassion I tell people I train in martial arts, if they ask, I tell them Aikido, if they say they've never heard of it and as what it is, I hand them a business card (I am not a Sensei) and invite them to observe a class. I deflect disscussion while encouraging participation. Same thing I do on the mat 6x a week.

If people ask why I do it, I just tell them "It's a lot of fun."

Bronson
03-05-2008, 11:30 AM
if they say they've never heard of it and as what it is, I hand them a business card (I am not a Sensei) and invite them to observe a class.

While I know what I'm about to say isn't your intent it still may be what the other person is hearing from you.

To put it bluntly shunting a person off to the Sensei to be told anything about aikido smacks of a cult. You as a student need to be able to talk intelligently about aikido and answer some very basic questions. I've run into this in other things and it always sets off my warning signals.

A friend of mine was involved in the Landmark Forum and would rave about how it changed his life. When I asked him what kind of things they did or discussed I was told he wasn't able to talk about it and I would have to go to a meeting to fully appreciate it, and the first meeting was even free ;)

The same thing happened when I stopped into the local Ninjitsu school. None of the students would answer any of my questions. They said I would need to talk to the Sensei. When I asked if the Sensei was there and if I could speak to him I was told that yes he was and no I couldn't. I would have to make an appointment for a free (again) one-on-one intial class/interview with the Sensei and that is when I would have any questions answererd.

Again, both cases set my warning buzzers off. And if I was a person unfamiliar with aikido and met a student who was unwilling/unable to even talk about it and instead pushed me off on some all powerful authority figure for answers to simple questions, I would think it was a cult and wouldn't pursue it.

That of course is strictly my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Bronson

Cephallus
03-07-2008, 09:28 AM
There is a lot of interesting commentary in this thread. I'm glad I took the time to read through the entire thing.

I have to say, most of the people I've told about my starting Aikido have been nothing but positive about it. Several good friends of mine are active participants in the MMA community in Southern California, and not one of them said anything disparaging about Aikido. One did look at me with a confused look and ask why I chose Aikido, but after I explained my reasons, he was perfectly in-tune with what I was talking about.

I realized some time ago that I have never been afraid of being able to defend myself in a physical altercation - I've always participated in violent, full-contact sports (hockey/rugby/boxing/etc) - what I've always been afraid of is being able to control myself well enough in a physical altercation to not seriously injure or kill another human being. That's not bravado, but the fact is that it's much easier to accidentally/incidentally hurt someone using no martial technique at all than it is to safely disarm a situation without seriously injuring the aggressor.

Whether or not the techniques become effective for me any time in the near future isn't really my main concern...it's about getting to the mental state where I realize, when pressed in a stressful situation, that I have the choice to resolve conflicts without resorting to testosterone-fueled machismo and muscle.

j_s_kelley
11-21-2008, 07:30 AM
I think the universal answer to that question is that people tend to hate what they don't understand. This is a well tested and far reaching concept. This is why we have religious wars, racisim, bigotry, and other things that don't compliment us as a species. Specifically in the martial arts, people tend to stick with what they have learned and put the potty mouth on everything else. I have had people tell me the Aikido doesn't work and when I press them, there are so many wrong ideas and misconcpetions, that I am not sure what they hate but it isn't Aikido.

My humble opinion
Scott.

Scott Kelley

"Happiness is not a reaction, it's a decision." -- J.S. Kelley

Aikido class information - www.aikidoofatlanta.com

To manage your martial arts organization please visit www.MartialManagement.net

jennifer paige smith
11-23-2008, 05:45 PM
Why do people hate Aikido?



Is the correct answer, "Cuz some people are haters."?:D

C. David Henderson
11-23-2008, 10:07 PM
Well, that's the thought that struck me. The question seems to presuppose the hating is about it's object. Maybe sometimes. Sometimes not.

DH

DonMagee
11-23-2008, 10:42 PM
People hate martial arts for one reason only.

They do not understand it and feel threatened by it. It forces them to realize that what they are doing might not make them the 100% unstoppable killing machine they think they are.

Further more, It calls into question what they have been taught. Just like high school kids, you want everyone to be like you to justify your beliefs. If they won't go along, then there must be something wrong with you.

It's that simple.

I am very critical of many martial arts, aikido included. But I would never say I hate aikido. I would say I love the scientific method and I encourage it to be employed during training. I would also say I despise bullcrap, and I hear it spouted a lot (in many martial arts, my own included). I do my best to call it out when I see it, no matter judoka, bjjer, or aikidoka.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
11-24-2008, 01:55 AM
They are all jealous. :p

Probably:)

I mingle a lot with BJJ and Judo practitioners. They say that it's more because Aikido somewhat falsely portrays martial effectiveness (in a demo probably)...one BJJ blackbelt just used three words (full of s--t) In contrast, their art (i train a bit myself) always try to be realistic in training.

Mark Stokmans
11-24-2008, 01:56 AM
I have scanned this thread, read a number of the postings critically and here are some replies from my point of view on a number of things that came along:

I do think it is a relevant question to ask what people like or dislike about aikido. Not for the sake of changing aikido to suit either opinion, but to see aikido reflected in the eyes of others. Reflection at any time is not a bad thing in my opinion.

To me it is important because the longer you practice the more partisan you become towards aikido and the more aiki-logic you seem to accept. With aiki-logic I mean things that are logical to nobody but aikidoka. You see aikidoka move on the mat and it is just silly to everybody but them. It doens't make sense, not only because people do not understand it, but because it is based on an intellectual construction (in analysing action and reaction) that at times is flawed.

I believe a part of the dislike is simply because aikido is different. It's just like the kid in the playground that stands out from the crowd. He is different and gets picked on. So what? It doesn't mean he has less worth or is less than anybody else. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that he is worth more or is better than anybody else. If he stands up in the crowd and sayshe is better (technically and/or philosophically superior) than everybody else because he is different, he will catch some flack, and understandably so. This seems to happen with some aikidoka.

As for thinking about superiority let alone arguing about it, to me within the context of aikido, is completely pointless and useless. As far as I know nothing in or about aikido is about superiority. People seeking or claiming superiority are treading road which will certainly not lead to anything near what they hope for. And the question that pops into mind is why do they need it?

Then a bit off-topic, but it came into the topic,(though it is some time ago) and at the risk of this seeming to be too much of a PR-message: Kicking, or Keri-waza is relevant to Aikido. As some may know I have put in some research into the incorporation of kicks in aikido and that I have written a book about the subject offering a clear technical and theoretical context and a number of Keri-waza techniques. The arguments against kicks are always the same. Every technical and/or philosophical argument not to include kicks has an equally valid (or more valid) opposite argument to include it. Actually IMHO most arguments boil down to: 'We haven't been taught, so we don't do it.' The dislike for Keri-waza by people with no or limited knowledge and/or experience with them actually mirrors the dislike of Aikido by people who have limited knowledge and/or experience with Aikido.

Back to the topic and more recent postings: Often you can hear people say: "Aikido doesn't work." To me it is a strange thing to say: I often retort and ask them, when doesn't it work, where, against what, what is the context of it not working. And in what way does something not work, what is the result you are judging its merits on? It may make more martial sense to shoot an attacker in the head: but does that constitute something that "works?" Tell that to the judge.
More often than not, as in this thread, the thread, we look at UFC. It seems that the UFC arena is the place where universal efficiency is decided nowadays. If you don't make it there, your art is useless and not a real martial art. And BJJ comes ou the winner because it rules in that arena. An arena controlled by more rules actually than known in aikido.

I am reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin who is a Dutch Film maker and who made a docuemntary about Dutch special forces in Afghanistan. We talked about aikido, self defense, and the context of self-defence in Afghanistan. The conclusion was that the application of self-defnense principles used in Aikido would not work in Afghanistan. At best you would get shot, the worst you would have your head caught off. Conversely however, the principles of self-defense effective in Afghanistan would not work in our society. (The principle there is that if somebody looks like he is a threat you should shoot him and kill his family before he does the same to you. Force is what works there). So anyway, our conclusion was that if self-defense is about protecting yourself and those around you against harm in any way, what actually "works" totally and profoundly depends on the context.

The only good thing I can see in a discussion about Aikido's (lack of) effeciency, which always comes back in the Aikido world is that at least most Aikidoka have enough sense to look at their art and what they are doing critically. I just hope that we manage to look at it from a broader perspective than what we need to beat somebody.

To me the only way for Aikido is to move forward. Some people might say all Aikido can ever be was shown in what O Sensei did. I choose to believe that what O sensei did was a starting point for Aikido and that it can grow, technically and philosophically. I think that a certain amount of self-doubt, humility(humbleness?) and just plain knowing you don't know anything is a good thing. Uncertainty leads to growth. Knowing it all (or think you do) leads to stagnation and invites dislike.

Mark

PS: please excuse the long posting

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2008, 03:31 AM
Read my blog on A.J.
Will go part of the way to explain it......

https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3104

Of course most would disagree but then again I think of aikido as an addition as other martial arts....... no one martial art has all the answers ...... take what is useful and discard the rest.....
Tony

DonMagee
11-24-2008, 06:45 AM
I have scanned this thread, read a number of the postings critically and here are some replies from my point of view on a number of things that came along:

I do think it is a relevant question to ask what people like or dislike about aikido. Not for the sake of changing aikido to suit either opinion, but to see aikido reflected in the eyes of others. Reflection at any time is not a bad thing in my opinion.

To me it is important because the longer you practice the more partisan you become towards aikido and the more aiki-logic you seem to accept. With aiki-logic I mean things that are logical to nobody but aikidoka. You see aikidoka move on the mat and it is just silly to everybody but them. It doens't make sense, not only because people do not understand it, but because it is based on an intellectual construction (in analysing action and reaction) that at times is flawed.

I believe a part of the dislike is simply because aikido is different. It's just like the kid in the playground that stands out from the crowd. He is different and gets picked on. So what? It doesn't mean he has less worth or is less than anybody else. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that he is worth more or is better than anybody else. If he stands up in the crowd and sayshe is better (technically and/or philosophically superior) than everybody else because he is different, he will catch some flack, and understandably so. This seems to happen with some aikidoka.

As for thinking about superiority let alone arguing about it, to me within the context of aikido, is completely pointless and useless. As far as I know nothing in or about aikido is about superiority. People seeking or claiming superiority are treading road which will certainly not lead to anything near what they hope for. And the question that pops into mind is why do they need it?

Then a bit off-topic, but it came into the topic,(though it is some time ago) and at the risk of this seeming to be too much of a PR-message: Kicking, or Keri-waza is relevant to Aikido. As some may know I have put in some research into the incorporation of kicks in aikido and that I have written a book about the subject offering a clear technical and theoretical context and a number of Keri-waza techniques. The arguments against kicks are always the same. Every technical and/or philosophical argument not to include kicks has an equally valid (or more valid) opposite argument to include it. Actually IMHO most arguments boil down to: 'We haven't been taught, so we don't do it.' The dislike for Keri-waza by people with no or limited knowledge and/or experience with them actually mirrors the dislike of Aikido by people who have limited knowledge and/or experience with Aikido.

Back to the topic and more recent postings: Often you can hear people say: "Aikido doesn't work." To me it is a strange thing to say: I often retort and ask them, when doesn't it work, where, against what, what is the context of it not working. And in what way does something not work, what is the result you are judging its merits on? It may make more martial sense to shoot an attacker in the head: but does that constitute something that "works?" Tell that to the judge.
More often than not, as in this thread, the thread, we look at UFC. It seems that the UFC arena is the place where universal efficiency is decided nowadays. If you don't make it there, your art is useless and not a real martial art. And BJJ comes ou the winner because it rules in that arena. An arena controlled by more rules actually than known in aikido.

I am reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin who is a Dutch Film maker and who made a docuemntary about Dutch special forces in Afghanistan. We talked about aikido, self defense, and the context of self-defence in Afghanistan. The conclusion was that the application of self-defnense principles used in Aikido would not work in Afghanistan. At best you would get shot, the worst you would have your head caught off. Conversely however, the principles of self-defense effective in Afghanistan would not work in our society. (The principle there is that if somebody looks like he is a threat you should shoot him and kill his family before he does the same to you. Force is what works there). So anyway, our conclusion was that if self-defense is about protecting yourself and those around you against harm in any way, what actually "works" totally and profoundly depends on the context.

The only good thing I can see in a discussion about Aikido's (lack of) effeciency, which always comes back in the Aikido world is that at least most Aikidoka have enough sense to look at their art and what they are doing critically. I just hope that we manage to look at it from a broader perspective than what we need to beat somebody.

To me the only way for Aikido is to move forward. Some people might say all Aikido can ever be was shown in what O Sensei did. I choose to believe that what O sensei did was a starting point for Aikido and that it can grow, technically and philosophically. I think that a certain amount of self-doubt, humility(humbleness?) and just plain knowing you don't know anything is a good thing. Uncertainty leads to growth. Knowing it all (or think you do) leads to stagnation and invites dislike.

Mark

PS: please excuse the long posting

Just an FYI, bjj is not the winner of MMA fights. Good MMA fighters have a lot more then bjj. If MMA has taught anyone anything it should be that you have to have a strong focus in both striking, takedowns, and ground work to be a complete fighter. Nothing else.

Mark Stokmans
11-24-2008, 11:36 AM
Don, thanks for correcting me. Let's nuance that by saying that grappling skills which are a focus of BJJ training are indespensible in UFC fights and quite often if not most of the time, matches are decided on the floor.

What interests me however is that, from all the things I said in my posting, you would decide to react only to the BJJ part. Perhaps the rest does not interest you, you've heard it all before, it is such drivle you are deciding to spare me or perhaps you just agree with everything but the BJJ remark ;-).

I am curious as to why only that sparked enough interest to react upon.

@ Tony: thanks for the link. It made for an interesting read. There are parts I certainly agree with. The danger though in my opinion is that catering too much towards aikido must be effective will do as much damage as catering too much towards aikido must be all about harmony, love and peace. Once again I think the truth (if it exists) lies somewhere in between, a hard place to find it. Life (and aikido) would be easier if the turth were simpler. It would be a lot more boring too.

DonMagee
11-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Don, thanks for correcting me. Let's nuance that by saying that grappling skills which are a focus of BJJ training are indespensible in UFC fights and quite often if not most of the time, matches are decided on the floor.

What interests me however is that, from all the things I said in my posting, you would decide to react only to the BJJ part. Perhaps the rest does not interest you, you've heard it all before, it is such drivle you are deciding to spare me or perhaps you just agree with everything but the BJJ remark ;-).

I am curious as to why only that sparked enough interest to react upon.

@ Tony: thanks for the link. It made for an interesting read. There are parts I certainly agree with. The danger though in my opinion is that catering too much towards aikido must be effective will do as much damage as catering too much towards aikido must be all about harmony, love and peace. Once again I think the truth (if it exists) lies somewhere in between, a hard place to find it. Life (and aikido) would be easier if the turth were simpler. It would be a lot more boring too.

I just use search to find posts with UFC, bjj, or mma in then comment :D

In all seriousness, I really didn't have any other issues with your post. I'm just not much of a me too kind of guy.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
11-24-2008, 08:05 PM
Read my blog on A.J.
Will go part of the way to explain it......

https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3104

Of course most would disagree but then again I think of aikido as an addition as other martial arts....... no one martial art has all the answers ...... take what is useful and discard the rest.....
Tony

Exactly!:cool: