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graham butt
11-30-2008, 03:55 PM
This thread should be called, Why do people have an opinion. They hate it because, it may not be for them, It may be a bit too technical, Not straight to the point enough. Various reaons, So long as your heart remains in the art then what is there to worry about the situation? If they hate it let them hate it, don't spend time trying to convince a non-believer. Stick to your heart and let them have their say!

Niccolo Gallio
12-01-2008, 06:38 PM
Why do some people hate Aikido?
easy:
We get to wear black pants

jducusin
12-01-2008, 07:09 PM
Why do people hate Aikido?

Though it's been said ad nauseum, "people hate what they do not understand".

curlytops
12-03-2008, 02:28 AM
I guess they hate Aikido just because they don't understand its concepts.

lbb
12-03-2008, 08:27 AM
I hate ukemi because I hate freedom.

(terrorists ftw!)

C. David Henderson
12-03-2008, 11:49 AM
Unless you fall down, the terrorists win? Actually there's room to work with that idea....

lbb
12-03-2008, 12:25 PM
Unless you fall down, the terrorists win? Actually there's room to work with that idea....

IF you fall down, the terrorists win. Or something.

(mostly goofing on the silly use of the word "hate" here)

C. David Henderson
12-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Me too. If Ukemi involves (enables, whatever) getting over the fear of falling, then it also should abate terror over falling. Hence, when I fall down, I defeat those who would have me be afraid of falling (likely a null set, admittedly).

A little more seriously -- I find it difficult to get into the OP because I honestly don't really care that much. And, as I remarked a while back, sometimes the hate is not very much about its object.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-07-2010, 06:33 PM
Is it aikido they hate or is it the bunnies that infest it?........:D

Janet Rosen
12-07-2010, 06:52 PM
{sigh} another 2 yr old thread resurrected....

Randall Lim
12-07-2010, 07:22 PM
Quite an observation, Grant.....I have almost thirty years of Aikido, and thirty-four Karate training behind me, personally, I have summed it up in one line "No immediate tangible result"....if you kick, punch or strike an individual properly, you have an immediate effect on that individual that is seen, this does not actually require any training.....But to properly affect a balance break with an entering/turning motion and to feel the individuals reaction, requires so much practice......most people do not have the patience or self-discipline to do this.

Miku-san

Fully agree!! The learning of Aikido is a long long process which takes more than 10 years of regular training to even find the techniques effective in practical self-defence. Any martial training aiming for perfection in less than 10 years is considered a crash course (skipping the foundational essentials for martial perfection).

The first few years of Aikido training is just for the development of our psycho-motor skills (hand-eye-foot-body coordination) towards common Aikido techniques (form).

The next few years in Aikido training is for the development of our mental skills (the appropriate state of mind) in martial training.

The above-mentioned processes should take a total of at least 10 years of regular Aikido training to achieve.

Most people who observe & criticise Aikido do so from their superficial perspective on what is obvious (omote) to them. They do not have the long-term patience & determination to discover the not-so-obvious (ura) aspect of Aikido for themselves.

ravenest
12-07-2010, 08:06 PM
Because it is one of those weird Japanese martial arts that are LOADED with ... 'stuff'. And because some people seem to be stuck in practicing one art ... being a devotee of that art and not practicing and developing their own martial art based on a variety of sources.

How many types of Japanese karate do not teach getting offline? Seems obvious?

Why pull one hand back to your hip when you deliver a punch with the other? Dont ask questions, just do what you are shown. ... and think you are competent ... you might be - in your specific tradition.

I have learnt so much from practicing aikido it has filled out my other practices and visa versa.

I had a karate teacher that showed me a whole new way, dissing Japanese karate, esp, Shotokan, because they dont move offline.
he has a great range of techniques that do. he also trained in the past with an Aikidoka. And constantly criticizes Aikido as the techniques dont really work in a spar, fight or self defense. Then 3 years later he tells me that his karate is different from his Okinawan teachers "Even they dont move offline, I learnt that from the Aikido guy I trained with and incorporated it." ??? WTF?

But he still cant understand why people do Aikido. :confused:

CNYMike
12-08-2010, 01:43 AM
{sigh} another 2 yr old thread resurrected....

:hypno: :hypno: It's ALLLLIIIIVVVVVVEEEEEE!!!!!!!!:hypno: :hypno: :D :D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 04:04 AM
Like to keep the bunnies hopping.....:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 04:22 AM
Fully agree!! The learning of Aikido is a long long process which takes more than 10 years of regular training to even find the techniques effective in practical self-defence. Any martial training aiming for perfection in less than 10 years is considered a crash course (skipping the foundational essentials for martial perfection).

The first few years of Aikido training is just for the development of our psycho-motor skills (hand-eye-foot-body coordination) towards common Aikido techniques (form).

The next few years in Aikido training is for the development of our mental skills (the appropriate state of mind) in martial training.

The above-mentioned processes should take a total of at least 10 years of regular Aikido training to achieve.

Most people who observe & criticise Aikido do so from their superficial perspective on what is obvious (omote) to them. They do not have the long-term patience & determination to discover the not-so-obvious (ura) aspect of Aikido for themselves.

It seems to me that to have to do ten years to become proficient in self defence is quite honestly a waste of time... I suppose if you are only practising martial dance once weekly it would take that long..... Even then I would seriously doubt the efficacy of it.....
If you are looking at health aspects only then why not do dance or performing arts, yoga or something like it?..... brilliant for health and fitness!!
The reason why anybody would take up a martial art is for self defence.... It is to my mind anyway.....
I believe aikido is a martial art, not just a health system.....Today that has been forgotten by most in mainstream "traditional" purist "aikidoka"..... It saddens me to say that I don't like to say that I do aikido anymore. So now I say I do modern jujutsu..... Say "aikido" and people laugh :dead: :straightf

lbb
12-08-2010, 09:43 AM
{sigh} another 2 yr old thread resurrected....

Oh I don't know. I think there's enormous value in repeating what was already said many times as if it were new and original thought.

I'll do my penalty laps for snark, but honestly people...you had that coming.

Shadowfax
12-08-2010, 10:15 AM
{sigh} another 2 yr old thread resurrected....

Oh I don't know. I think there's enormous value in repeating what was already said many times as if it were new and original thought.

I'll do my penalty laps for snark, but honestly people...you had that coming.

And what do you have against recycling? What is old to some is brand new to others. Resurrecting an old thread simply saves you oldies the trouble of repeating yourselves since it is all right there already.

As for why people hate aikido.I don't know go ask them, if it matters to you. One mans trash is another mans treasure.

http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_penny.gif

CNYMike
12-08-2010, 10:30 AM
.... It saddens me to say that I don't like to say that I do aikido anymore. So now I say I do modern jujutsu..... Say "aikido" and people laugh :dead: :straightf

Who's laughing? I would say "I do Aikido." If you can't do that with your head high, what's the point?

CNYMike
12-08-2010, 10:36 AM
:yuck: .... I had a karate teacher that showed me a whole new way, dissing Japanese karate, esp, Shotokan, because they dont move offline.
he has a great range of techniques that do. he also trained in the past with an Aikidoka. And constantly criticizes Aikido as the techniques dont really work in a spar, fight or self defense. Then 3 years later he tells me that his karate is different from his Okinawan teachers "Even they dont move offline, I learnt that from the Aikido guy I trained with and incorporated it." ??? WTF?

But he still cant understand why people do Aikido. :confused:

Since returning to Aikido in 2004, I have been guided by Dan Inosanto's mantra: "No one martial art has all the answers, but every art has something to offer." In theory, you have to identiify what Aikido does better than anything else. In practice ... well, I'll have to get a lot better than I am and then do a lot more research on my own than I may do. But the point is on the whole, I respect Aikido for what it is, not what I want it to be. I like it! What's the point if that's not true?

Beyond that, it's important to distinguish online discussions from the real world. In the real world, people vote with their feet; no one is going to plunk down $60/month for something they "hate." And if they don't want to do it, that's fine.

Yep, another zombie thread revised by someone who didn't read the date (and I've done that). :crazy: :yuck: :hypno:

sakumeikan
12-08-2010, 10:49 AM
Good points all appreciated.

For me, aikido confuses and scares people as it blurs their normal boundaries and framework of operation. It goes against some core things the modern world teaches. I wrote an article on this...people seem to like it, but no one wants to publish it...

Hi Mark,
Publish in your own Newsletter or send it to Dee Chen.Failing that send me a copy for my edification.Hope you are well,
Joe.

sakumeikan
12-08-2010, 11:05 AM
Probably:)

I mingle a lot with BJJ and Judo practitioners. They say that it's more because Aikido somewhat falsely portrays martial effectiveness (in a demo probably)...one BJJ blackbelt just used three words (full of s--t) In contrast, their art (i train a bit myself) always try to be realistic in training.
Dear Enrique,
The trouble is that sometimes demo are indeed full of manure!
Anyone who is not familiar with Aikido concepts [your average guy ]thinks its all phony baloney and as Martial as a marshmallow.
However if you see the real deal[no names no pack drill] you will soon know that some teachers can turn it on as and when required.
What is realistic any way, to grapple somebody or do muay thai or what? Realistic to me is doing the minimum in order to get the maximum benefit from my own effort. If this means a sharp kick to a persons procreation area thats sufficient from my point of view. Fortunately being a gentleman I have rarely had to utilise this particular method.

sakumeikan
12-08-2010, 11:26 AM
Who's laughing? I would say "I do Aikido." If you can't do that with your head high, what's the point?
Hi Mike,
I see no reason why anyone who practises sincerely should feel embarrassed to say they practice Aikido.As you say if you do not
have confidence in the art and in your own ability, why bother?
Having spent over 40 years in studying Martial Arts primarilyJudo , Aikido I have no problem stating I do Aikido and nobody so far has
[at least to my face ] ever said I was doing a dance.I have always respected my fellow Martial Artists whether they do a different discipline from myself.In turn I receive respect from these others.This is how it should be.
Cheers, Joe.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 11:48 AM
Who's laughing? I would say "I do Aikido." If you can't do that with your head high, what's the point?

What's the point in living a lie?
My aiki is my aikido, well actually it's devolved back to a martial art....
Most mainstream "aikido" is an insult to those of the walk and not the talk.....

There's plenty a laughing, believe it or do you have your head buried in the sand?......
The very word itself has become a laughing stock, and its all down to the bunnies

C. David Henderson
12-08-2010, 12:11 PM
[clop clop whinny]
KNIGHT: They're nervous, sire.
ARTHUR: Then we'd best leave them here and carry on on foot. Dis-mount!
TIM: Behold the cave of Kyre Banorg!
ARTHUR: Right! Keep me covered.
KNIGHT: What with?
ARTHUR: Just keep me covered.
TIM: Too late!
[chord]
ARTHUR: What?
TIM: There he is!
ARTHUR: Where?
TIM: There!
ARTHUR: What, behind the rabbit?
TIM: It is the rabbit!
ARTHUR: You silly sod! You got us all worked up!
TIM: Well, that's no ordinary rabbit. That's the most foul, cruel,
and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on.
ROBIN: You tit! I soiled my armor I was so scared!
TIM: Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide, it's a
killer!
KNIGHT: Get stuffed!
TIM: It'll do you a trick, mate!
KNIGHT: Oh, yeah?
ROBIN: You mangy Scot git!
TIM: I'm warning you!
ROBIN: What's he do, nibble your bum?
TIM: He's got huge, sharp-- he can leap about-- look at the bones!
ARTHUR: Go on, Boris. Chop his head off!
BORIS: Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up!
TIM: Look!
[squeak]
BORIS: Aaaugh!
[chord]

mickeygelum
12-08-2010, 01:06 PM
" Ni, I say..Ni! "

Marc Abrams
12-08-2010, 01:38 PM
Bring out the Holy Aiki Grenade....:confused:

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 02:15 PM
[clop clop whinny]
KNIGHT: They're nervous, sire.
ARTHUR: Then we'd best leave them here and carry on on foot. Dis-mount!
TIM: Behold the cave of Kyre Banorg!
ARTHUR: Right! Keep me covered.
KNIGHT: What with?
ARTHUR: Just keep me covered.
TIM: Too late!
[chord]
ARTHUR: What?
TIM: There he is!
ARTHUR: Where?
TIM: There!
ARTHUR: What, behind the rabbit?
TIM: It is the rabbit!
ARTHUR: You silly sod! You got us all worked up!
TIM: Well, that's no ordinary rabbit. That's the most foul, cruel,
and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on.
ROBIN: You tit! I soiled my armor I was so scared!
TIM: Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide, it's a
killer!
KNIGHT: Get stuffed!
TIM: It'll do you a trick, mate!
KNIGHT: Oh, yeah?
ROBIN: You mangy Scot git!
TIM: I'm warning you!
ROBIN: What's he do, nibble your bum?
TIM: He's got huge, sharp-- he can leap about-- look at the bones!
ARTHUR: Go on, Boris. Chop his head off!
BORIS: Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up!
TIM: Look!
[squeak]
BORIS: Aaaugh!
[chord]

Ha Ha!! Yes very good, but then I would expect that from a bunnie....:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 02:17 PM
Bring out the Holy Aiki Grenade....:confused:

Marc Abrams

Have you got one?.....:eek: :D

C. David Henderson
12-08-2010, 02:24 PM
Ha Ha!! Yes very good, but then I would expect that from a bunnie....:D

Who -- Boris? Be nice, he lost his head, that's all.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Who -- Boris? Be nice, he lost his head, that's all.

Boris..... ha ha ha!! nnnyyah what's up mein doctor....?

Marc Abrams
12-08-2010, 03:32 PM
Have you got one?.....:eek: :D

Thou shalt countith to san and not to roku before throwing the Holy Aiki Grenade from Antioch..... :D !

Marc Abrams

C. David Henderson
12-08-2010, 08:12 PM
Hi Tony,

Glad to hear you're still kicking it. But dude, I thoguht you knew, hop spings eternal.

Regards,

Benjamin Mehner
12-08-2010, 09:29 PM
Thou shalt countith to san and not to roku before throwing the Holy Aiki Grenade from Antioch..... :D !

Marc Abrams

"Ichi! Ni! Go!"

"San, sir!"

"San!"

KaliGman
12-08-2010, 11:17 PM
What's the point in living a lie?
...
Most mainstream "aikido" is an insult to those of the walk and not the talk.....

There's plenty a laughing, believe it or do you have your head buried in the sand?......
The very word itself has become a laughing stock, and its all down to the bunnies

Well put. It sounds as if you may have seen the elephant a time or two. Good hunting and best of luck in your training.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Hi Tony,

Glad to hear you're still kicking it. But dude, I thoguht you knew, hop spings eternal.

Regards,

Run rabbit run rabbit run run run.......;) :D

So am I........

Merry Crimbo Everyone..... As I'm so poor at present so bunny is definitely on the menu.....!!!

Hellis
12-09-2010, 02:32 AM
Is it aikido they hate or is it the bunnies that infest it?........:D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Tony

In the 1950s /60s Aikido was respected by other martial artists, that was where 90% of our new students came from...Aikido now leaves itself wide open to ridicule with no touch throws, acrobatic ukies that take off at the pointing of a magic finger. Aikido with coloured ribbons which can easily be mistaken for Morris Dancing.
Aikido to music...

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

lbb
12-09-2010, 08:56 AM
And what do you have against recycling? What is old to some is brand new to others. Resurrecting an old thread simply saves you oldies the trouble of repeating yourselves since it is all right there already.

There's no need to recycle when something is already perfectly good...or, rather, as good as it ever was. What's to stop people from reading the old thread, saying to themselves, "Hmm, well, I have an opinion on this subject, but it looks like others have already said everything I was going to say. I don't really have anything to add, and a year-after-the-fact 'what he said' is kind of pointless, so I'll just skip it"?

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 08:57 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Tony

In the 1950s /60s Aikido was respected by other martial artists, that was where 90% of our new students came from...Aikido now leaves itself wide open to ridicule with no touch throws, acrobatic ukies that take off at the pointing of a magic finger. Aikido with coloured ribbons which can easily be mistaken for Morris Dancing.
Aikido to music...

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Yes, absolutely......I couldn't agree more...... I was speaking to Mike Tracey yesterday and we were reminding/reminiscing ourselves of the "golden years" of the B.A.A. how it seemed to slip from a standard point of view amongst the regions......How Tomiki/Shodokan aiki has improved from the intervention of one of Tomiki's protege's, Nariyama Shihan and his prominent deshi.... I was lucky and proud to have people like Mike, Brian Eustace, Itsuo Haba and others as my mentors and sensei as they all have good Judo with the exception of Itsuo, who I know has also practised some Judo, but mostly Kendo and Jodo, plus they are are all good "Tomiki" men..... Itsuo having been all J.A.A tanto randori champion (veteran as well!!) and well known for his speed and agility.....

Thanks Henry.... Always uplifting to hear from a Real Aikidoka
Happy Crimbo and may your New Year be a
good 'un. :) ;)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 09:04 AM
There's no need to recycle when something is already perfectly good...or, rather, as good as it ever was. What's to stop people from reading the old thread, saying to themselves, "Hmm, well, I have an opinion on this subject, but it looks like others have already said everything I was going to say. I don't really have anything to add, and a year-after-the-fact 'what he said' is kind of pointless, so I'll just skip it"?

Well sorry Mary, I just like to jolt people out of their deluded slumber .....:eek: :D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 09:21 AM
Well put. It sounds as if you may have seen the elephant a time or two. Good hunting and best of luck in your training.

Yes John, unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it)
I have encountered a few nasty elephants in my time, but glad to say not in the dojo, except one "but what if" idiot who I dispatched out through the dojo doors at high speed, and luckily outside the dojo with no cctv or "funny" people to witness it either.... ;) .....Kesara.....:cool:

And thank you for those kind words

mickeygelum
12-09-2010, 10:26 AM
What's to stop people from reading the old thread, saying to themselves, "Hmm, well, I have an opinion on this subject, but it looks like others have already said everything I was going to say. I don't really have anything to add, and a year-after-the-fact 'what he said' is kind of pointless, so I'll just skip it"?


For a thread that you consider to be of no value...there have been 27, count them, 27 additional posts. People are interacting and having fun, enjoying themselves. That is quite a bit more than some othermind-boggling, thought provoking threads ever attain. :eek:

Without the constant reminder of " Another dead thread resurrected"....and how would we live without the "snarky" thoughts, we look forward to seeing from you.:rolleyes:

One possibility, Aikido forums are not about having fun, they must be about censure from persons who have not attained standing in the Aikido Community...just their own little bunny hutch. :(

Awe, the beauty of the internet... don't you just love it!:D

Hellis
12-09-2010, 11:01 AM
For a thread that you consider to be of no value...there have been 27, count them, 27 additional posts. People are interacting and having fun, enjoying themselves. That is quite a bit more than some othermind-boggling, thought provoking threads ever attain. :eek:

Without the constant reminder of " Another dead thread resurrected"....and how would we live without the "snarky" thoughts, we look forward to seeing from you.:rolleyes:

One possibility, Aikido forums are not about having fun, they must be about censure from persons who have not attained standing in the Aikido Community...just their own little bunny hutch. :(

Awe, the beauty of the internet... don't you just love it!:D

Michael
I totally agree with your comments...I can never understand when people complain about a ``thread `` , if I am not interested in the subject being discussed, I simply ignore it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 11:20 AM
Michael
I totally agree with your comments...I can never understand when people complain about a ``thread `` , if I am not interested in the subject being discussed, I simply ignore it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Ditto.....

CNYMike
12-09-2010, 12:10 PM
....There's plenty a laughing, believe it or do you have your head buried in the sand?......
The very word itself has become a laughing stock, and its all down to the bunnies

Maybe online, but that depends on where you surf. Most of the arugments about it that I've come across have been .... here! In the real world, I haven't run into laughter from anyone I train with in other arts. In fact, one of the best pro-Aikido stories I've heard came from one of the guys I know in JKD. But again, I guess it depends on where you are

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 12:29 PM
Maybe online, but that depends on where you surf. Most of the arugments about it that I've come across have been .... here! In the real world, I haven't run into laughter from anyone I train with in other arts. In fact, one of the best pro-Aikido stories I've heard came from one of the guys I know in JKD. But again, I guess it depends on where you are

Sadly, not enough from other M.A.
In general it's the aiki community that have themselves to blame.....

If it was'ny for people like Henry Ellis Sensei, It would be dying that much faster.....

I'm a nobody and I know it..... The difference is I've done some walking.....:straightf

RED
12-09-2010, 12:58 PM
Michael
I totally agree with your comments...I can never understand when people complain about a ``thread `` , if I am not interested in the subject being discussed, I simply ignore it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Pretty much. I read in this forum every few days. I post to maybe 1% of what I read. If I find something uninteresting, I just ignore it.
Some one to remain nameless on this forum once told me, "Make sure you never have more posts on this forum than you have hours on the mat." I took the statement to heart. My Aikido experience should be better defined by my time training and the relationships it fosters. I think something is horribly unbalanced in some one's Aikido experience if the goings on of a website reflects any when the computer is turned off.

lbb
12-09-2010, 01:02 PM
One possibility, Aikido forums are not about having fun, they must be about censure from persons who have not attained standing in the Aikido Community...just their own little bunny hutch. :(

Awe, the beauty of the internet... don't you just love it!:D

Yes indeed, the beauty of the internet, where you can quickly find the meaning of phrases like "ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)".

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Pretty much. I read in this forum every few days. I post to maybe 1% of what I read. If I find something uninteresting, I just ignore it.
Some one to remain nameless on this forum once told me, "Make sure you never have more posts on this forum than you have hours on the mat." I took the statement to heart. My Aikido experience should be better defined by my time training and the relationships it fosters. I think something is horribly unbalanced in some one's Aikido experience if the goings on of a website reflects any when the computer is turned off.

Maybe they have one in the dojo?......;) :D

Michael Neal
12-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Michael
I totally agree with your comments...I can never understand when people complain about a ``thread `` , if I am not interested in the subject being discussed, I simply ignore it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

They can't allow other viewpoints

RED
12-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Maybe they have one in the dojo?......;) :D

:eek:

mickeygelum
12-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Yes indeed, the beauty of the internet, where you can quickly find the meaning of phrases like "ad hominem".


Oh Mary,

Why is it when some one disagrees with you it becomes a personal attack?:confused:

Truthfully, there is an air of indifference to your perspective, you are just too spiteful, negative and demeaning.;)

Get over it!:D

CNYMike
12-09-2010, 08:17 PM
Sadly, not enough from other M.A.


I haven't run into ridicule from people I train with in other MA, so maybe it's where I am.


....If it was'ny for people like Henry Ellis Sensei, It would be dying that much faster.....


:confused: "Dying"? With a million people worldwide doing it -- tens of thousands of them logging into this web site -- and Aikido books in the book stores, including Dynamic Aikido which has been published since the 1960s, I'd hardly call it "dying."

Tony Wagstaffe
12-09-2010, 09:19 PM
I haven't run into ridicule from people I train with in other MA, so maybe it's where I am.

:confused: "Dying"? With a million people worldwide doing it -- tens of thousands of them logging into this web site -- and Aikido books in the book stores, including Dynamic Aikido which has been published since the 1960s, I'd hardly call it "dying."

Are there a million actually practising "aikido" I doubt it, and as for books, never bought any until I was at it at least 5 years..... was more interested in the doing than the reading..... ;) Maybe that's the trouble? Too much philosophy to digest instead of where it's at? Your telling me.... Doesn't compare to Karate, Judo, TKD, MMA now does it....?
Yes, there are rumbles at last.... But it takes people like Rick Ellis to walk the walk, and speak his mind. There is aikido in some small pockets that yes is excellent, but it is sadly in the minority.... Maybe things are a changing, lets hope they are.....;) :)

aikilouis
12-10-2010, 05:25 AM
There is aikido in some small pockets that yes is excellent, but it is sadly in the minority
I guess you include yourself in the lot.

Hellis
12-10-2010, 06:39 AM
I guess you include yourself in the lot.

Maybe Sensei Wagstaffe is too modest to include himself in that " lot " ............with his long history and background I will add his name to that " lot ".

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 08:24 AM
Maybe Sensei Wagstaffe is too modest to include himself in that " lot " ............with his long history and background I will add his name to that " lot ".

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Please Sensei, I'm just a nobody who loves aiki and wants to see it return mentally and physically to it's roots....
You honour me......

Mary Eastland
12-10-2010, 08:52 AM
Who cares about the haters? Not me! I love Aikido. I just did some sword work and now can hardly wait for class tomorrow.
Mary

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 12:14 PM
Who cares about the haters? Not me! I love Aikido. I just did some sword work and now can hardly wait for class tomorrow.
Mary

And I bet you look just fine with your hand on hip......;) :D .

Did my 500 suburi this morning... a bit damp but got nice and warm for work.....

Hellis
12-10-2010, 12:32 PM
Please Sensei, I'm just a nobody who loves aiki and wants to see it return mentally and physically to it's roots....
You honour me......

Now you are being modest :-)

I believe we first met almost 50 years ago ???? That is a long time ...

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Now you are being modest :-)

I believe we first met almost 50 years ago ???? That is a long time ...

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Actually Sensei it was in 1976 or 7or 8 ?.... You visited the Winchester Judo & Martial Arts club at the Lido Sports Centre and was cordially invited to take the class, as our Instructor, Bob Forrest Webb was held up or something? Anyway the highest grade who was leading the class invited you on and we had a great session....
I remember it well because Derek Eastman, your side kick, threw me with an excellent kotegaeshi from a shomen uchi bokken attack, which I didn't hold back on in the least!! He executed it without effort and smoothness and I was unable to resist it....
You don't know it but I have sent and advised people to attend your group on many occasion, who have asked me where they could find Traditional aikido as they were not interested in the competitive style that we practice, which is entirely their choice. I have no problems with that as I believe that all good aikido will flourish whatever style it is.....:) ;)
Thanks for a bloody good session!!

Mary Eastland
12-10-2010, 03:15 PM
And I bet you look just fine with your hand on hip......;) :D .

Did my 500 suburi this morning... a bit damp but got nice and warm for work.....
I don't see how this is funny, Tony...what do you mean?
Mary

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 04:14 PM
I don't see how this is funny, Tony...what do you mean?
Mary

Don't worry about it Mary..... Just my quirky sense of humour when I think of women swinging bokken and how unfeminine it looks.... It would look so much better done with one hand on the hip.....

Hope you managed your 500 too ;) ....

Hellis
12-10-2010, 04:34 PM
Don't worry about it Mary..... Just my quirky sense of humour when I think of women swinging bokken and how unfeminine it looks.... It would look so much better done with one hand on the hip.....

Hope you managed your 500 too ;) ....

You are a braver man than I Gunga Din :) :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-10-2010, 08:46 PM
You are a braver man than I Gunga Din :) :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Am I ? Or naive? Or maybe both?.....:) :rolleyes:

CNYMike
12-10-2010, 09:02 PM
Are there a million actually practising "aikido" I doubt it ....

You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteryu Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that! :)

....and as for books, never bought any until I was at it at least 5 years..... was more interested in the doing than the reading..... ;) Maybe that's the trouble? Too much philosophy to digest instead of where it's at? .....

Most of the books are technical manuals, not philosophiocal tracts. I've found the Best Aikido books to be a good resource when I want to double-check something. Most book stores seem to have a decent selection of Aikido books in their martial arts section. Again, hardly a sign the art is "dying."

.....Your telling me.... Doesn't compare to Karate, Judo, TKD, MMA now does it....?

I've been doing karate for 25 years, and my karate sensei knows the aikido teacher I train under. Again, I have not had any ridicule.

mickeygelum
12-10-2010, 09:44 PM
if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that!

Yeah, Tony....:D...and at 5 quid a pelt, that's a hell of a lot of money!

Peter Goldsbury
12-10-2010, 10:27 PM
You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that! :)

This is very interesting. Do you have more details of the DVD? The Aikikai maintain a database of yudansha, that is to say, records of to whom and when each dan rank was awarded and by whom. However, this does not mean that all the yudansha are actually training, are regular members of a dojo or an organization, or are even alive. It is simply a record of when each dan was given, so anyone can check the lineage of any yudansha who claims to be affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.

However, I would be very surprised indeed if the Aikikai has any record of mudansha in each country. There are two reasons for this. First, in the vast majority of dojos and organizations, kyu grades are an internal affair, and it is only with shodan that practitioners are registered with the Aikikai and receive a yudansha card with the number of the dan awarded. My own dojo registers members with the Aikikai from 5th kyu, but this is an exception, even in Japan. The second reason is that records of mudansha tend to be sketchy, mainly because of the drop-out rate. So we register each member of the dojo for insurance purposes and for kyu examinations, but even so, quite a few members have to be considered as having given up, because they no longer appear. So the records we keep are not an accurate record of who is actually training reguarly in the dojo. I suspect that this is true for many other dojos.

So, I suspect that Doshu's figure of 1.6 million was an estimate, but I also suspect that it was a wild guess, simply because the hard evidence on which to base a reliable figure does not exist.

Best wishes,

PAG

Tony Wagstaffe
12-11-2010, 05:23 AM
You're half right. In a 2004 DVD, Moriteryu Ueshiba Doshu said there were 1.6 million people practicing Aikido in 86 countries. "Actually there are more people and more countries," he added, "but those are the registered one." I don't know if that's the grand total or just the people tied to Hombu, and things have changed in the past 6 years. But if there are between 1.5 million and 2 million people practicing Aikido, then it is very hard to say the art is "dying." Nope, not 1 million - more than that! :)

Most of the books are technical manuals, not philosophiocal tracts. I've found the Best Aikido books to be a good resource when I want to double-check something. Most book stores seem to have a decent selection of Aikido books in their martial arts section. Again, hardly a sign the art is "dying."

I've been doing karate for 25 years, and my karate sensei knows the aikido teacher I train under. Again, I have not had any ridicule.

Aha! Technical manuals, now there's a thing, always found it awkward to do waza while holding a techi manual, seemed to tie myself up in knots..... but there you go... I always say good teacher, don't need a manual.... But when you've been at it a few years, for reference's and comparison is fine.....
When I bought the first one, Yes It was Gozo Shioda's Dynamic Aikido, I was a bit disappointed as I was instantly aware that it was nothing new, I had already been doing it!!!! But have kept it from an historical point of view and you never know might be worth something one day........ Kesara

I'll be quite frank and say that I don't have a clue as to how many practice "aikido" and I mean practice, not dance, with ribbons bells and little sticks, but that's just a matter of opinion, and when I say dying........
I mean the ekkythump stuff that I've been used to for the last, 'ang on a minute.... oh yeah 35 years of aiki, a few years before that judo, amateur boxing, wing chun and a smattering of Goju Ryu.

Maybe that's what I'm worried about..... That aikido will change for the worse instead of the better, maybe I shouldn't fret as I'm happy doing what I've done and will keep doing till I can't anymore.....

All those who want to play with ribbons and do the cha cha please carry on as quite honestly I don't give a toss..... Well actually that ain't true, otherwise I wouldn't be here taking the proverbial would I now.......:rolleyes: :D

PS I forgot to add my experiences whilst in Her Majesties Service as a matelot, and the naughty amount of ding dongs, I was involved with whether I liked it or not..... Hence why I'm not so pretty anymore......

Tony Wagstaffe
12-11-2010, 05:37 AM
Yeah, Tony....:D...and at 5 quid a pelt, that's a hell of a lot of money!

Sssssh or you'll scare them all away!!!
Nearly had one in my sights......;)

CNYMike
12-11-2010, 05:04 PM
.... I'll be quite frank and say that I don't have a clue as to how many practice "aikido" and I mean practice, not dance, with ribbons bells and little sticks, but that's just a matter of opinion, and when I say dying........
I mean the ekkythump stuff that I've been used to for the last, 'ang on a minute.... oh yeah 35 years of aiki, a few years before that judo, amateur boxing, wing chun and a smattering of Goju Ryu.


When I say "dying" I mean the population practicing it has dwindled to a handful of individuals, maybe less than a dozen, who aren't teaching it or haven't produced someone who can. That's not the case with Aikido, even if it is difficult to pin down exactly how many people who are doing it. The other issues are for another zombie thread. I think it's a little over the top to say something is "dying" because it's not to your liking, but in terms of the raw numbers, no.

CNYMike
12-11-2010, 05:06 PM
This is very interesting. Do you have more details of the DVD? .....

It's the DVD for New York Aikikai's 40th anniversary summer camp.

.... I suspect that Doshu's figure of 1.6 million was an estimate .....

Probably, but even if you can't pin down the exact number at this moment, there are enough people doing it you can not, IMHO, say it's "dying."

mickeygelum
12-11-2010, 07:05 PM
Wagstaffe Sensei should have said, " Good Aikido is dying", not, "Aikido is dying".

Just because someone says they are doing Aikido, does not make it true.

There are plenty of "Snake Oil Senseis" out there. To the inexperienced and naive, dojo dancing appears to qualify some of these folks as competent martial artists. When in fact, any second rate pugilist, first year karateka or streetlife hardened survivor would take their prized "so-and-so black belt" and shove it up their ass.

There are far too many bad examples out there, and unfortunately they are the majority.

You said the Doshu is the reference for your Aikido,in my opinion, he is not that good....he inherited the title.

Train well,

Mickey

Tony Wagstaffe
12-11-2010, 09:07 PM
Wagstaffe Sensei should have said, " Good Aikido is dying", not, "Aikido is dying".

Just because someone says they are doing Aikido, does not make it true.

There are plenty of "Snake Oil Senseis" out there. To the inexperienced and naive, dojo dancing appears to qualify some of these folks as competent martial artists. When in fact, any second rate pugilist, first year karateka or streetlife hardened survivor would take their prized "so-and-so black belt" and shove it up their ass.

There are far too many bad examples out there, and unfortunately they are the majority.

You said the Doshu is the reference for your Aikido,in my opinion, he is not that good....he inherited the title.

Train well,

Mickey

As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying.... But not in some quarters.....
To my way of thinking, martial arts are about self defence. That is why I practice a martial art to be able to defend myself in times of need. The by product is robust health, not learn to dance, do ballet, play hop skip and jump, with ribbons, bells, and music and delude myself with feel good endorphins.....
The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?

lbb
12-11-2010, 10:47 PM
Oh Mary,

Why is it when some one disagrees with you it becomes a personal attack?:confused:

Truthfully, there is an air of indifference to your perspective, you are just too spiteful, negative and demeaning.;)

Wow, you just broke my irony meter.

*plonk*

mickeygelum
12-11-2010, 11:23 PM
"The Truth will set you free"...:D

mathewjgano
12-12-2010, 12:08 AM
...but martial artists are becoming rare.....

Are they becoming rare? Or are there just more and more of the other to offset the proportion and make it seem as such? My hunch is that there is just a lot more to sift through.
" Good Aikido is dying",
Is your Aikido dying? I don't get this notion that good practice at one school is lessened by poor practice at another. Maybe there's more bad Aikido (never mind the broad differences in personal goals which might be used to define "good practice"), but the "good" Aikido is probably still out there. Or do you see your and others' students caring less about the quality of their training? If anything, based on the popularity of the internal discussions, good Aikido is on the rise, even if just a bit.
Take care,
Matt

mickeygelum
12-12-2010, 01:21 AM
Is your Aikido dying?
Absolutely, Not. ;)

I don't get this notion that good practice at one school is lessened by poor practice at another.

That does not even make sense. :eek:

Hellis
12-12-2010, 04:42 AM
As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying.... But not in some quarters.....
To my way of thinking, martial arts are about self defence. That is why I practice a martial art to be able to defend myself in times of need. The by product is robust health, not learn to dance, do ballet, play hop skip and jump, with ribbons, bells, and music and delude myself with feel good endorphins.....
The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?

Tony

You have summed the issue up well. I sometime wonder where it all went wrong, did the ribbons and the music happen overnight when I slept in too long ?. I had lunch with Chiba Sensei at the Hut Pub ( dojo ) we were discussing this subject, he hiimself said that Aikido as a martial art had been watered down, I replied " No Sensei, I disagree, Aikido as a Martial Art has been vaporized !! " he laughed out loud....
I would argue that there are still some good dojo's out there, one would need to search for them..
I recall one student who left a dojo when the Sensei promised he would teach them the following week to breath through their toes.
Perhaps he also intended to teach them to talk out of their arris's?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-12-2010, 05:23 AM
Tony

You have summed the issue up well. I sometime wonder where it all went wrong, did the ribbons and the music happen overnight when I slept in too long ?. I had lunch with Chiba Sensei at the Hut Pub ( dojo ) we were discussing this subject, he hiimself said that Aikido as a martial art had been watered down, I replied " No Sensei, I disagree, Aikido as a Martial Art has been vaporized !! " he laughed out loud....
I would argue that there are still some good dojo's out there, one would need to search for them..
I recall one student who left a dojo when the Sensei promised he would teach them the following week to breath through their toes.
Perhaps he also intended to teach them to talk out of their arris's?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry (Sensei)

After reading that, just made me laugh my T*****s off!! Ha ha!
For years on end I just went to the dojo (mine) train with the guys and gals and take ukemi for all that came along. Some stuck, some didn't, but I do know one thing.... When people come up to you years later and you don't remember them (whoops?) Say I remember you, you were my aikido teacher, It was really good, I learnt a lot from what you taught..... Now that's nice, but always inside I think to myself then why pack it up? But there you go...
Teaching was taking ukemi, Not strutting around the mat looking like something is stuck up one's proverbial!! In my time I attended as many seminars, courses, championships I could pack into the time available as well as holding down a hard physical job as an installation sparky (and other things). Half my summer holidays were spent at summer gashuku doing what any serious aikidoka, should be doing, intensive solid training!!
May be I'm a nutter I don't know? I do know one thing, Nobody gives me aggro when I do the T. W. stare!! Ha ha!! Does it come through the eyes as well?
I have met a couple of the types you have described and you should have seen the look on their faces when their "ki" couldn't shift me and they were looking somewhat bewildered when I did a kaeshi waza they didn't see with there "ki"!! Aren't I naughty.....
;) :D :cool:

Tony

mathewjgano
12-12-2010, 10:16 AM
That does not even make sense. :eek:

What part? Please elaborate. I can't do much with that kind of response. Maybe responses like this are part of the reason why Aikido is being killed by meak little bunnies? My point is that as long as folks like you are doing good Aikido, Aikido cannot "die." That was the sense I had in the remark, but I will be the first to admit I'm not an expert and lack the considerable experience folks like you have.

CNYMike
12-12-2010, 11:10 AM
As a play on words, then yes I'll rephrase .....Aikido as a "martial art" is dying....The dreamers, "martial arts philosophisers" and con artists are a plenty, but martial artists are becoming rare.....
Does that suffice?

That clarifies things, yes. Thanks.

mathewjgano
12-12-2010, 11:52 AM
"Make sure you never have more posts on this forum than you have hours on the mat."

Boy am I in debt! Good thing I like a challenge.
I've been meaning to ask why you think this is important? Or more to the point: what's the problem with it?
My thinking is that it's good to practice communication about different topics and that the written word is a great way to do it. With that in mind, I've been going full speed ahead compared to, well, much less mat time. The only problem I can see is if one thinks they can learn to do Aikido through talking about it. We can learn about Aikido, but the learning of the doing is in the doing. As long as people can remember that, i see no harm in having 1300+ posts and only about 700+ hours mat-time...er...hypothetically speaking of course.:D

Hellis
12-12-2010, 12:10 PM
Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

RED
12-12-2010, 01:22 PM
Boy am I in debt! Good thing I like a challenge.
I've been meaning to ask why you think this is important? Or more to the point: what's the problem with it?
My thinking is that it's good to practice communication about different topics and that the written word is a great way to do it. With that in mind, I've been going full speed ahead compared to, well, much less mat time. The only problem I can see is if one thinks they can learn to do Aikido through talking about it. We can learn about Aikido, but the learning of the doing is in the doing. As long as people can remember that, i see no harm in having 1300+ posts and only about 700+ hours mat-time...er...hypothetically speaking of course.:D

:D
Let me elaborate on what I said. There's nothing wrong in practicing good communication. In fact, if you love practicing Aikido it is a give in that you might enjoy talking about Aikido, which is cool.

I think the statement "never post more than you have hour on the mat" comes from a problem I've heard a great deal of Aikidoka be annoyed with. It is the "intellectual" Aikidoka problem. Some one who can talk until they are blue in the face about "being heavy like earth", but fall over like a pin on the mat.
I think the above statement of "never post more than you have hours on the mat" is a warning that application is more important than theory. Basically, keep ourselves in check so we don't become intellectually dishonest about our real knowledge of Aikido.
Say a person is a 6th kyu but for some reason feels the need to teach others about Aiki. No one at his dojo is gonna listen to him about Aiki because he has no practical experience to be teaching other students, especially those who out rank him. But here on the internet, if he talks a good game, he can feel like his is in a place to be teaching others, he can be a shihan on his own IP address.
Nothing is wrong with having 1000 post and 700 training hours, so long as it isn't 1000 posts a year where you go out of your way to try to teach others about Aiki, and 70 mat hours a year of actual applied practice for 7 years. Now 1000 posts in 3 years and 700 of training hours in 3 years, not too shabby of a guy to listen to.

lbb
12-12-2010, 02:19 PM
I agree with Maggie, although I wouldn't express it in quantitative terms. At least, it's been my own experience that I need a lot of practice to integrate a little theory.

Keith Larman
12-12-2010, 02:31 PM
What about those of us who train all the time and talk all the rest? Blithering idiots we are, yes?

I do think it is very interesting the variation of styles depending on how Aikido came to an area. Tohei's influence on Hawaii and the Western US. The Abe in the UK. Abbe (and others) in France. Then how the aikido itself was manifest over time given regional differences. Yeah, some weird stuff in California (new age gobbledygook is my preferred comment, but that shows my bias, neh?). But now I see Mr. Christian posting from the UK and wow, I had thought that stuff was more a California throwback to the 60's and 70's kinda deal. Now please realize my crack about "gobbledygook" is my own take. I realize that those involved in that type of practice find a great deal of value in it. Cool for them. Not for me. I simply don't get it. I'm probably not sensitive or insightful enough to get it. Or maybe too much time reading philosophy books over the years has ruined me. Whatever floats your boat.

Interestingly enough there was considerable variation in the Southern California scene even with there being mostly the influence of Tohei.

Anyway, I am rambling somewhat off topic. I must admit to a great degree of agreement with Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe about what it was supposed to be about. But over time things morphed so much... And while I accept Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe's critiques as being truly spot on, I also think it is important to note that things did change for many. And Aikido became something else over time as it went in all those different directions. From O-sensei to Tohei (as chief instructor). To Kisshomaru. To Moriteru. That mainline (in the sense of the family line) also seems to have changed quite a bit, mostly because after reading all of Prof. Goldsbury's article it seems as though it is quite hard to define what the heck Aikido was to Ueshiba Morihei in the first place! And what he wanted people to learn. He seemed to be more worried about his own development and pursuits and allowed for students simply as a means to further that goal of his. He seemed quite content to let others take the reigns in his lifetime, hence Tohei's rise.

Anyway, I'm blathering on. I think in one sense Aikido is really a big tent even if some groups don't want all those "other aikibunny" folk under the tent with them. I'm not saying good or bad, just saying it is more or less just the facticity (to borrow from the existentialists) of it all.

In the end what matter is the practice, goals, and approaches of each group and how well those things match with their students. I have zero problem saying many I've met in Aikido have a truly unrealistic expectation of who they'd fare in a real, physical, violent confrontation. That *is* a problem. But then again there are many who are doing aikido as if it is the same as chado, or meditation, or whatever. Very good too. If it is enlightening, more power to ya. It's the disconnect that is the problem for many...

Enough rambling. And I'm probably not saying anything new here, so... back to swinging my Subarito and doing a few things Dan H taught. Startin' to feel more there... That's good. That's what I'm after. Whatever *that* is. :)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

The way he describes it Henry, is utter bull, but if he had said the "Power of Command" that would have been a better and rational explanation.... I/we were taught to project our voices through our diaphragms, by the use of breath, (which is exactly the same as using a kiai shout) when doing drill on a parade ground, that is as class leader which, I was, in basic training at H.M.S. Raleigh and training at H.M.S. Collingwood. I had to march the class from classroom to classroom and also bark orders for them to hear me, when turning left, right, halt and so forth..... I was particularly good at rifle drill, but a mediocre shot... ha ha!
Maybe that kid has fear going down a flight of stairs now who knows?
This is precisely what niggles me about these deluded types, the same types that believe in spooks, ghosts, aliens, conspiracy theories and anything else that is imaginary.....
Saying that, we've all shouted at our kids when they are about to do something daft like running out into the middle of the road and then had to apologise to them after explaining why they shouldn't do it....
Just common sense and nothing else.....
The only ki I've got is the one that opens my door when I get home from work.......:D ;)

Tony

Keith Larman
12-12-2010, 03:07 PM
I remember telling someone one day that they needed to kiai like they had just seen their child across the room with their hand inside a running blender. "STOP RIGHT NOW!!!!"

*That* is the voice. A yell from the very core that leaves nothing to doubt. One of those yells that cuts right through the brain into the most primitive parts. Stop them in their tracks.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-12-2010, 03:07 PM
What about those of us who train all the time and talk all the rest? Blithering idiots we are, yes?

I do think it is very interesting the variation of styles depending on how Aikido came to an area. Tohei's influence on Hawaii and the Western US. The Abe in the UK. Abbe (and others) in France. Then how the aikido itself was manifest over time given regional differences. Yeah, some weird stuff in California (new age gobbledygook is my preferred comment, but that shows my bias, neh?). But now I see Mr. Christian posting from the UK and wow, I had thought that stuff was more a California throwback to the 60's and 70's kinda deal. Now please realize my crack about "gobbledygook" is my own take. I realize that those involved in that type of practice find a great deal of value in it. Cool for them. Not for me. I simply don't get it. I'm probably not sensitive or insightful enough to get it. Or maybe too much time reading philosophy books over the years has ruined me. Whatever floats your boat.

Interestingly enough there was considerable variation in the Southern California scene even with there being mostly the influence of Tohei.

Anyway, I am rambling somewhat off topic. I must admit to a great degree of agreement with Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe about what it was supposed to be about. But over time things morphed so much... And while I accept Mr. Ellis and Mr. Wagstaffe's critiques as being truly spot on, I also think it is important to note that things did change for many. And Aikido became something else over time as it went in all those different directions. From O-sensei to Tohei (as chief instructor). To Kisshomaru. To Moriteru. That mainline (in the sense of the family line) also seems to have changed quite a bit, mostly because after reading all of Prof. Goldsbury's article it seems as though it is quite hard to define what the heck Aikido was to Ueshiba Morihei in the first place! And what he wanted people to learn. He seemed to be more worried about his own development and pursuits and allowed for students simply as a means to further that goal of his. He seemed quite content to let others take the reigns in his lifetime, hence Tohei's rise.

Anyway, I'm blathering on. I think in one sense Aikido is really a big tent even if some groups don't want all those "other aikibunny" folk under the tent with them. I'm not saying good or bad, just saying it is more or less just the facticity (to borrow from the existentialists) of it all.

In the end what matter is the practice, goals, and approaches of each group and how well those things match with their students. I have zero problem saying many I've met in Aikido have a truly unrealistic expectation of who they'd fare in a real, physical, violent confrontation. That *is* a problem. But then again there are many who are doing aikido as if it is the same as chado, or meditation, or whatever. Very good too. If it is enlightening, more power to ya. It's the disconnect that is the problem for many...

Enough rambling. And I'm probably not saying anything new here, so... back to swinging my Subarito and doing a few things Dan H taught. Startin' to feel more there... That's good. That's what I'm after. Whatever *that* is. :)

Actually Keith that would go a long way to maybe explain why aikido has gone this way and you are not blathering, but making interesting points......
I would like to suggest that if people want to be "aikibunnies" then maybe they should call there practice "Health, harmony & grace derived from the martial art of aikido" It might be the trick? Much like tai chi for health..... Now there's a thing.....:) ;)

mathewjgano
12-12-2010, 03:19 PM
He seemed to be more worried about his own development...

If I were to hazard a guess at what makes a person good at anything, this would be it. When it comes to learning/teaching, my view has become that a good teachers has a harder time teaching a terrible student than a good student has learning from a terrible teacher.
Also:
Thanks Maggie! Good points!

RED
12-12-2010, 03:29 PM
If I were to hazard a guess at what makes a person good at anything, this would be it. When it comes to learning/teaching, my view has become that a good teachers has a harder time teaching a terrible student than a good student has learning from a terrible teacher.
Also:
Thanks Maggie! Good points!

A good student loves to learn. You can't keep some one who loves to learn from learning. A good student, for that reason, is the undoing of a bad teacher.

Keith Larman
12-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Actually Keith that would go a long way to maybe explain why aikido has gone this way and you are not blathering, but making interesting points......
I would like to suggest that if people want to be "aikibunnies" then maybe they should call there practice "Health, harmony & grace derived from the martial art of aikido" It might be the trick? Much like tai chi for health..... Now there's a thing.....:) ;)

I think what you'll find is that most of them will say that what they are doing was derived from the martial art of aikibudo or aikijutsu and is for health, harmony and grace first and foremost. With the ultimate goal being some degree of martial integrity. Although it is an open question whether that is actually a realistic approach. I do think they sincerely believe they are doing Aikido as it was taught to them. And I find it fascinating how varied the impressions are today.

So many hesitate to call aikido itself a martial art given the understanding they have of the larger philosophical scheme of Ueshiba Morihei. Of course we can also argue that maybe they simply don't understand the philosophy and never did. But I see it as being far from a "given" one way or the other. It all depends on who you followed, how you understood them, and the "lenses" through which you experienced it. I've seen Chiba and frankly I find some his stuff to be overtly brutal. Not what I want to do. But I've also seen him do some amazingly powerful stuff. So here we get into separating the intent behind the waza and the waza itself.

In the end all I know is why I got into Aikido. I wanted to develop grace, health and harmony as a by product of my practice of a martial art. Meaning if it doesn't work, what the hell is the point? But that is me... And while I may not have any desire to practice the way some do, I fully understand their desire to do it their way. The deeper question of a "true" ontology of Aikido is of great interest to me, but I accept there is quite a variety out there today. Suffice to say I think what I'm doing is the "real deal" of course. As most everyone else does as well. Unfortunately, logically, not everyone can be right if we assume there is a "correct" version of aikido. But maybe that assumption itself rests on a series of more primary assumptions. So we come back to where we start.

So... Train hard, train sincerely, and never stop questioning. :)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-12-2010, 05:14 PM
I think what you'll find is that most of them will say that what they are doing was derived from the martial art of aikibudo or aikijutsu and is for health, harmony and grace first and foremost. With the ultimate goal being some degree of martial integrity. Although it is an open question whether that is actually a realistic approach. I do think they sincerely believe they are doing Aikido as it was taught to them. And I find it fascinating how varied the impressions are today.

So many hesitate to call aikido itself a martial art given the understanding they have of the larger philosophical scheme of Ueshiba Morihei. Of course we can also argue that maybe they simply don't understand the philosophy and never did. But I see it as being far from a "given" one way or the other. It all depends on who you followed, how you understood them, and the "lenses" through which you experienced it. I've seen Chiba and frankly I find some his stuff to be overtly brutal. Not what I want to do. But I've also seen him do some amazingly powerful stuff. So here we get into separating the intent behind the waza and the waza itself.

In the end all I know is why I got into Aikido. I wanted to develop grace, health and harmony as a by product of my practice of a martial art. Meaning if it doesn't work, what the hell is the point? But that is me... And while I may not have any desire to practice the way some do, I fully understand their desire to do it their way. The deeper question of a "true" ontology of Aikido is of great interest to me, but I accept there is quite a variety out there today. Suffice to say I think what I'm doing is the "real deal" of course. As most everyone else does as well. Unfortunately, logically, not everyone can be right if we assume there is a "correct" version of aikido. But maybe that assumption itself rests on a series of more primary assumptions. So we come back to where we start.

So... Train hard, train sincerely, and never stop questioning. :)


So it seems my suggestion is a way that could be entertained?
To say that Chiba Sensei's aikido has been "overtly brutal" I would disagree with, because if that is the case, then I am guilty of the same thing...!! I do not think it was intentional, nor done in the sense of hurting anyone to kill or maim, as that would be ridiculous to even think of entertaining!! But I have found that it does "wake" people up that are not paying attention to their protection, which martial arts were and are intentionally designed for.....
I suspect that Ueshiba sensei probably did not intend his martial art become empty and a paper tiger.... That is evident in how it was passed onto the last deshi other than Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I believe had K. Ueshiba, had he been given a choice other than "duty & obligation" he would rather have live in a house at the top of the hill and be a 9 - 5 er...... Now where did I read that? A.J. I believe....
Now when we look at Morihiro Saito sensei and what he has passed on would suggest that Proff Ueshiba did want aikido to be a martial art and no less.....
So to say that health and harmony are foremost, is to my way of thinking incorrect, so I am afraid I will have to disagree with you..... But that's our choice is it not?
I think it important that anyone coming into aikido should have the truth given to them at the onset, by which ever dojo they attend...I make it clear to people that what I do/teach does have a modicum of risk involved as with any contact art or activity....And is effective for Self Defence..... Many of my old students have been doormen and have found it very useful..... so to me I have done my business correctly and am not involved with chanting, burning incense, ringing bells and pretending or deluding myself that I have some mystical power!!
I can tell you now I bleed and bruise just like the rest of you..... and absolutely do not have mystical powers other than the understanding of aiki......... do

As for the real deal you will only find that out when you have been truly challenged.......

Kind Regards

Tony

Train well and for real.....

Tony

Keith Larman
12-12-2010, 05:29 PM
Mr. Wagstaffe

Actually I do not really disagree on most of what you wrote. First and foremost I think Aikido should be a viable martial art. I think some of the ancillary benefits are health, harmony, etc. to doing it correctly. But I also think first and foremost... Martial art.

WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.

Hellis
12-12-2010, 05:50 PM
Keith Larman
WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.

I first met Chiba Sensei when he arrived in the UK in 1966 at the invitation of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei....In 1967 I ended my long association with the " Hut Dojo" and joined with Chiba Sensei. This was a time when Sensei was at his peak, I would add that he was no harder or ```brutal``` than any of the other Japanese masters before him. There are other members on this forum who have had a long relationship with Chiba Sensei, Joe Curren and Phillip Smith. I am sure that they would both agree with me that Chiba Sensei was intent on teaching Aikido as a martial art...Of course if a student isn't up to that type of training then find something more suitable,,
The only time I have ever know anyone get hurt by Sensei was if they were dopey enough to resist..If only students would value what Chiba Sensei has on offer as one of the last of the true AikiKai teachers.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-12-2010, 06:06 PM
Mr. Wagstaffe

Actually I do not really disagree on most of what you wrote. First and foremost I think Aikido should be a viable martial art. I think some of the ancillary benefits are health, harmony, etc. to doing it correctly. But I also think first and foremost... Martial art.

WRT to Chiba sensei -- well, I've not felt his technique first hand so I'd probably best just let that go and allow others with more direct experience comment instead.

Please call me Tony, I'm not the taxman as my name would imply....Wagstaffe means officious, he was the taxman of old in days of yor, when only a staffe would make sure that people pay their taxes, hence he wagged it around a lot.....
Strange really, I actually prefer the jo to the bokken and sword.....

Tony Wagstaffe
12-13-2010, 04:40 AM
Tony

One other thing that Chiba Sensei said, was, ""these people call their clubs martial arts clubs, in reality they are no more than social clubs """.............................................

This is better than the toes, it is one of my favourites :-)

From the old " Aikido Today Magazine "

I am a carpenter, I was working in a large house with a very large staircase with landings approaching from both sides.
I saw the small child of the owner approaching from the opposite landing, I feared he would fall down the stairs, I did not have time to reach him, so I SHOUTED and projected my " Ki" through the childs head and out the other side, he fell on the floor crying out loudly, the mother rushed to see what had happened, I explained what I had done, she thanked me, I replied ( wait for this one )
"" Don't thank me, thank Aikido ""

The kid was in his own home, he probably knew exacttly what he was doing until that prat screamed at him and his Ki made the kid sh!t himself..........That child may well be disturbed to this very day...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry,

Just had another thought, Oh deary me!! I'm out doing myself here..... Maybe this carpenter thought he was somebody else?

After all one of the most famous persons in unrecorded history was a carpenter....

Cor blimey!! Now that is delusion........;) :D

Tony

Hellis
12-13-2010, 04:49 AM
Henry,

Just had another thought, Oh deary me!! I'm out doing myself here..... Maybe this carpenter thought he was somebody else?

After all one of the most famous persons in unrecorded history was a carpenter....

Cor blimey!! Now that is delusion........;) :D

Tony

You may well be right, if he reads this he will be `cross with you :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

ravenest
12-13-2010, 07:53 PM
Well, for an 'old dead boring' thread I've found this most interesting.

Tony, I can sympathize a LOT with several of your posts.

I started training a long time ago. The aikikai instructors then were great, solid, it didnt matter that I had years of karate training under my belt, actually an advantage.

Then I go to another club and apparently I'm doing it all wrong, not receiving the technique right. [In my opinion the only 'right' way to recieve a technique is by trying to assure the saftey and respect of both doing the exercise - so breakfall or roll out right! - and in a way that allows quick recovery or counter.]

Sometimes I stop at the beginning of a technique and my partner throws himself through the air ????? Well, if he's gonna do that he should twist his own wrist and tap out. :rolleyes:

Then Dave Brown appears on the scene (thank goodness!). To put it briefly, he cleans everyone up. Now people, including some instructors seem a bit devastated that their aikido isnt much good or realistic compared to his. Fortunately he has a high grading so people give it validity.

Then I'm being shown a 'new' way to do the techniques that are a lot more real and quiet devastating. The normal instructor takes me aside in later sessions and carefully instructs me to do the old techniques in a new way (like I did before) as Dave showed him, BUT not other people, so now I'm doing this, the others are doing bunny dance ... that instructor has left and now .... ?

I'm seriously wondering how I can continue.

Here is some more. Years ago I held some classes, a woman turns up and puts a green belt on (???), she seems startled at normal simple aikido techniques then asks to do some of 'hers' ..."Grab my wrist," I do, she jerks her wrist and looks at me, "Well."
"Well what?"
"Roll"
'Wha?"
"An aikido techniques consists of two parts" she lectures me, " I do a technique and you roll."
"No," I said, "I attack, you do a technique and throw me and I roll so I dont break my neck."
She looked scared and left.

At another school I finished training, we sit down, close eyes, meditate. Good! Teacher starts saying something. I'm used to this as at this stage a past instructor would read out the memoirs of O'Sensai.

I listen ... wait a minute! Thats not the writings of a Taoists/Shinto, I listen carefully ... a prayer that ends with, in the name Jesus Christ, Amen.
All the students say "Amen" and then cross them selves, formal bow, end of class.
WTF???!

Its NOT just aikido this type of degredation... this is happened in MOST areas I have observed ... tis a symptom of our modern society I guess?

Tony Wagstaffe
12-13-2010, 09:23 PM
Well, for an 'old dead boring' thread I've found this most interesting.

Tony, I can sympathize a LOT with several of your posts.

I started training a long time ago. The aikikai instructors then were great, solid, it didnt matter that I had years of karate training under my belt, actually an advantage.

Then I go to another club and apparently I'm doing it all wrong, not receiving the technique right. [In my opinion the only 'right' way to recieve a technique is by trying to assure the saftey and respect of both doing the exercise - so breakfall or roll out right! - and in a way that allows quick recovery or counter.]

Sometimes I stop at the beginning of a technique and my partner throws himself through the air ????? Well, if he's gonna do that he should twist his own wrist and tap out. :rolleyes:

Then Dave Brown appears on the scene (thank goodness!). To put it briefly, he cleans everyone up. Now people, including some instructors seem a bit devastated that their aikido isnt much good or realistic compared to his. Fortunately he has a high grading so people give it validity.

Then I'm being shown a 'new' way to do the techniques that are a lot more real and quiet devastating. The normal instructor takes me aside in later sessions and carefully instructs me to do the old techniques in a new way (like I did before) as Dave showed him, BUT not other people, so now I'm doing this, the others are doing bunny dance ... that instructor has left and now .... ?

I'm seriously wondering how I can continue.

Here is some more. Years ago I held some classes, a woman turns up and puts a green belt on (???), she seems startled at normal simple aikido techniques then asks to do some of 'hers' ..."Grab my wrist," I do, she jerks her wrist and looks at me, "Well."
"Well what?"
"Roll"
'Wha?"
"An aikido techniques consists of two parts" she lectures me, " I do a technique and you roll."
"No," I said, "I attack, you do a technique and throw me and I roll so I dont break my neck."
She looked scared and left.

At another school I finished training, we sit down, close eyes, meditate. Good! Teacher starts saying something. I'm used to this as at this stage a past instructor would read out the memoirs of O'Sensai.

I listen ... wait a minute! Thats not the writings of a Taoists/Shinto, I listen carefully ... a prayer that ends with, in the name Jesus Christ, Amen.
All the students say "Amen" and then cross them selves, formal bow, end of class.
WTF???!

Its NOT just aikido this type of degredation... this is happened in MOST areas I have observed ... tis a symptom of our modern society I guess?

I believe you have a valid points there Michael.... for years I found that T/S aikido was criticised and frowned upon because of it's competitive element, even amongst those that practised it!! Saying that kyogi shiai and tanto randori shiai it's not real, it's sports.... Well yes it's true and of course it is, but how else does one test their technique under stress in the modern sense, bearing in mind litigation and the pitfalls that involves? Short of using real blades it would be absolutely ridiculous!! That is why we have the Goshin kata's to practice safely that which can't be done otherwise.... I have used real blades in demo's and people thought, oh my god someone's going to get killed!! Well maybe, (if you are stupid about it) but that is the closest you can do under the "rules" so to speak.... Two people that have practised a kata over and over again can make it look almost real......Ask Henry Ellis Sensei he will tell you an interesting story of a demo he once performed in front of some VIP's....
Bloody common sense if you ask me!!

Oh yes the " o senseis" are many fold, have met them and discarded them in short thrift and B******s if they don't like the way I don't harmonise with their delusional "ki"

As for the bunnies they don't come to our dojo (When I had one, hopefully soon to be restarted) and they know why!!
We have had a few wander in here and there and have left early once things got warmed up..... I wonder why? :rolleyes: :straightf ;) :)
Society today is getting fatter and lazier, that's the real problem I guess.... Actually I know!! I see it every day..... We are surrounded by them!!..... :D ;)

George S. Ledyard
12-13-2010, 11:36 PM
So I am visiting another dojo. As a guest I am on my best behavior. I got paired with this person and I grabbed his wrist in the "I am visiting someone else's dojo" manner, certainly not how I would normally have grabbed someone if I was training seriously. This person was completely unable to do tenkan... couldn't move at all, in fact.

The person in question then looked at and said "You are very resistant... your energy body is not very sensitive..."

Now, at that time, my energy body wasn't very sensitive... but the person in question had no idea how to do a tenkan when grabbed either. When it's the other guy's fault you can't do your technique, things have gotten seriously mucked up.

Keith Larman
12-14-2010, 12:01 AM
Guy comes to our main dojo. Yudansha rank and asks if he can train with us and join in with our instructors classes. He is given permission.

My first time paired with the guy and we're supposed to go practice a simple munetsuki kotegaeshi. I outrank the fella so he strikes first. I sidestep and simply get my hands up because, well, the dude is dancing in with the weirdest striking floating whatever I'd ever seen. He leaves his arm outstretched and floats on by turning and starting to get into a fall. I (rather uncharacteristically) ask "what the hell was that?". He tells me he is giving me a good aiki attack.

What? He's supposed to bloody well try to hit me and my job is to blend with him.

Sheesh.

Sometimes you might do a blending exercise knowing full well it isn't something that would be relevant to a "real" confrontation. But munetsuki kotegaeshi? Hit me, this isn't dance class!

tlk52
12-14-2010, 08:38 AM
[QUOTE=Matthew Gano;
Is your Aikido dying? I don't get this notion that good practice at one school is lessened by poor practice at another. Maybe there's more bad Aikido (never mind the broad differences in personal goals which might be used to define "good practice"), but the "good" Aikido is probably still out there. "

I was thinking about this quote from Mr. Gano.

maybe I live in a bubble around the NY Aikikai world because i hear about this kind of extreme aikibunny" Aikido (ribbons/music/ridicules attacks, uke's throwing themselves etc...) but I don't see it at the dojo's that I'm familiar with (NY Aikikai, Aikido of Park slope, etc...)

perhaps it's becoming like the Tai Chi world, where most of the people studying don't even know that it's a martial art and are being taught by generations of teachers who didn't study as a martial art. But, never the less, within this much larger group there are plenty of individuals and schools who are indeed pursuing it as a martial art while the others do it for health, or relaxation or whatever.

maybe this is inevitable... It does seem to me that people tend to remake Aikido in their own image ie: what they're comfortable with is "good" and what they're uncomfortable with "is not aikido"

tlk52
12-14-2010, 08:46 AM
Keith Larmen wrote
"He leaves his arm outstretched and floats on by turning and starting to get into a fall. I (rather uncharacteristically) ask "what the hell was that?". He tells me he is giving me a good aiki attack. "

did this evolve from Tohei's "Taigi" exercises? (where, as I understand it, the "attacks" are done like that)

Shadowfax
12-14-2010, 09:31 AM
So I am visiting another dojo. As a guest I am on my best behavior. I got paired with this person and I grabbed his wrist in the "I am visiting someone else's dojo" manner, certainly not how I would normally have grabbed someone if I was training seriously. This person was completely unable to do tenkan... couldn't move at all, in fact.

The person in question then looked at and said "You are very resistant... your energy body is not very sensitive..."

Now, at that time, my energy body wasn't very sensitive... but the person in question had no idea how to do a tenkan when grabbed either. When it's the other guy's fault you can't do your technique, things have gotten seriously mucked up.

This reminds me of an experience I had last spring at a seminar. I'm just 5th kyu and still working out how to be when visiting a different dojo. So trying to be very polite I thought I recalled working with a particular yundasha the night before and that she had an injured wrist. Not wanting to cause further injury I grabbed her more lightly than is my norm. Still trying to give a committed attack but without the strong grip I usually have. So we were doing the excercise that sensei had given us and it seemed to be going well.

Anyway after a moment, this person decides to offer some advice and says to me, " you need to work on your strength. It's ok I used to have the same problem, you will get there. Just be aware that you need to work on it."

Now I have never had anyone say such a thing to me before. I'm not exactly a weak person as I trim horses hooves for part of my living and I never get accused of giving it away. I had to stifle a laugh to stay polite, so I asked her, " do you mean physical strength as in you would like a stronger grip?" She says yes. So I'm like ok you asked for it. Grabbed her with my usual style and got very heavy. She got a very strange look on her face when she suddenly could not move me.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-14-2010, 11:28 AM
This reminds me of an experience I had last spring at a seminar. I'm just 5th kyu and still working out how to be when visiting a different dojo. So trying to be very polite I thought I recalled working with a particular yundasha the night before and that she had an injured wrist. Not wanting to cause further injury I grabbed her more lightly than is my norm. Still trying to give a committed attack but without the strong grip I usually have. So we were doing the excercise that sensei had given us and it seemed to be going well.

Anyway after a moment, this person decides to offer some advice and says to me, " you need to work on your strength. It's ok I used to have the same problem, you will get there. Just be aware that you need to work on it."

Now I have never had anyone say such a thing to me before. I'm not exactly a weak person as I trim horses hooves for part of my living and I never get accused of giving it away. I had to stifle a laugh to stay polite, so I asked her, " do you mean physical strength as in you would like a stronger grip?" She says yes. So I'm like ok you asked for it. Grabbed her with my usual style and got very heavy. She got a very strange look on her face when she suddenly could not move me.

Find another playmate or change your dojo.......;)

George S. Ledyard
12-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Find another playmate or change your dojo.......;)

Actually, I would say that depends on two things. One would be the reaction of the person who just got shut down. Did she realize that a) she had just asked for it and b) it represented an opportunity for growth? Or did she simply walk away pissed off that some newbie had disrespected her.

The other would be the attitude of the teacher at the dojo. These kind of interactions happen all the time. If the training properly, when a technique fails to work, the proper response is "thank you". As long as no one is doing anything that is martially stupid like hunkering down and doing that constipated, you can't move me ridiculousness, I don't ever want to see seniors getting pissed off at juniors because their stuff didn't work nor do I expect to see my seniors adjusting the ukemi of the juniors so that their own technique starts to work, which is, I am afraid, quite common.

A little damage to the ego in training is a fine thing. I don't think the poster should necessarily look for a new dojo just because of some interaction which he or she felt was insulting on some level. I definitely think that the senior in this case should be working on maintaining his or her equilibrium and fixing whatever technical issues led to getting shut down.

These kinds of interactions are inevitable in a dojo because practice is done between human beings. In a lot of the dojos I have seen, the ones that think they are doing serious martial training, this kind of interaction would have led to the senior trying to hurt the junior in order to demonstrate his superiority. That's unacceptable and is a reason to leave the dojo if that type of behavior was tolerated or modeled by the teacher.

George S. Ledyard
12-14-2010, 01:20 PM
I feel moved to put in some defense of the "aiki bunny". Since this thread so far simply represents "bunny bashing" I will step in and point out some things.

First of all, the folks who we might call "aiki bunnies" are quite often very serious about attempting to make Aikido something more than bashing, smashing, and torquing another human being to the ground. As misguided as they seem to be much of the time, I think they are often much closer in intention to what the Founder wished his art to be then the hard ass Budo boys.

Despite the fact that these folks are often technically deficient, they are often far more thoughtful about what they are doing than the technicians. O-Sensei specifically warned against focusing too much on technique. The technique was always intended to be a means to another end that had nothing whatever to do with throwing people or even fighting at all.

My experience with the "martial boys" in general is that they are often quite unthoughtful about what they do. Many are almost totally unreflective about the art. This is the reason one has to look far and wide for a real teacher. To my mind, the teacher I would be looking for would be one who was technically very advanced but would also be able to speak to my heart about what we are doing and why we do it.

We make fun of the "aiki bunnies". But very often they are far better adjusted as people, more fun to be around, less aggressive, precisely the kind of folks we'd like for neighbors. On the other hand, many of the true hard core practitioners I know are totally fearful in their personal interactions, insecure as people, often somewhat isolated, have terrible interpersonal skills, and are trying to make up for the fact that they are terrified all the time by becoming more and more powerful.

I train with these guys and find their work is totally misguided. The physical and mental tension in what they do virtually destroys any real ability to do technique with real "aiki". It's all just muscle coupled with some speedy and fluid movement. You can tell when that is is what is going on because it's only the really big strong guys who can do it... and then, only on folks weaker than themselves. Women can't really do this kind of Aikido. Men of smaller stature cannot. Older folks can't do it. It's an Aikido that revolves around very strong, young men.

Being a large man myself, I find it amusing to have some person half my size trying to hurl me or crank a lock on me. But they are only imitating their teacher, who might actually be strong and mean enough to do it on me. Sure there are folks who are quite capable of cranking the shit out of me, especially when I am offering myself up to them as uke. But that doesn't make it good Aikido. Good Aikido can be done by on old man or a small woman because it relies on "aiki".

Most of what I see billing itself as "martially effective" Aikido is just Aikido with a lot of physical power. It's nothing more than jiu jutsu with more movement than other systems. Daito Ryu has three levels. Jiu Jutsu, aiki no jutsu, and aiki. What passes for martial Aikido, the stuff the hard boys are so proud of, is nothing more than entry level Daito Ryu. It won't work for anyone not able to generate vast amounts of physicality.

I know that there are various interpretations about what O-Sensei meant when he stated that "no one was doing his Aikido". Personally, I am convinced it had to do with two things... one was the lack of aiki in technique and the other was the disconnection between technique and the spiritual that he observed.

The three teachers who seemed to most completely reflect O-Sensei's take on Aikido were Sunadomari Sensei (an Omotokyo follower), Hikitsuchi Sensei out at Shingu, and Abe Sensei. The Aikido of each of these men is a mix of deep technical understanding with a very sophisticated spiritual and philosophical underpinning.

So, unless ones Aikido is at the point at which it represents that kind of balance, I suspect it misses the mark by just as much as the wishful thinking Aikido being done by the so-called "aiki bunnies".

Tony Wagstaffe
12-14-2010, 01:36 PM
Actually, I would say that depends on two things. One would be the reaction of the person who just got shut down. Did she realize that a) she had just asked for it and b) it represented an opportunity for growth? Or did she simply walk away pissed off that some newbie had disrespected her.

The other would be the attitude of the teacher at the dojo. These kind of interactions happen all the time. If the training properly, when a technique fails to work, the proper response is "thank you". As long as no one is doing anything that is martially stupid like hunkering down and doing that constipated, you can't move me ridiculousness, I don't ever want to see seniors getting pissed off at juniors because their stuff didn't work nor do I expect to see my seniors adjusting the ukemi of the juniors so that their own technique starts to work, which is, I am afraid, quite common.

A little damage to the ego in training is a fine thing. I don't think the poster should necessarily look for a new dojo just because of some interaction which he or she felt was insulting on some level. I definitely think that the senior in this case should be working on maintaining his or her equilibrium and fixing whatever technical issues led to getting shut down.

These kinds of interactions are inevitable in a dojo because practice is done between human beings. In a lot of the dojos I have seen, the ones that think they are doing serious martial training, this kind of interaction would have led to the senior trying to hurt the junior in order to demonstrate his superiority. That's unacceptable and is a reason to leave the dojo if that type of behavior was tolerated or modeled by the teacher.

Hello George,
Yes granted that could be, but what she could have done is accepted that she also had limits, offered the other wrist, looked at her own shortcomings before unwittingly belittling a low kyu grade, who is trying to conform to her wishes..... It's not necessary to do that and I hope would never happen in a practice I was conducting... I have met on several occasions people who are and more physically stronger than myself and just say " Hmmm.... my you are a strong chappy.... and just applied the waza carefully...... the usual reaction is, "Yeah see what you mean!!" I tend to help those having this difficulty by adjusting their posture and tegatana and hey presto they understand immediately, but forget it on the next attempt.... but that's the process in learning.....;)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-14-2010, 01:45 PM
I feel moved to put in some defense of the "aiki bunny". Since this thread so far simply represents "bunny bashing" I will step in and point out some things.

First of all, the folks who we might call "aiki bunnies" are quite often very serious about attempting to make Aikido something more than bashing, smashing, and torquing another human being to the ground. As misguided as they seem to be much of the time, I think they are often much closer in intention to what the Founder wished his art to be then the hard ass Budo boys.

Despite the fact that these folks are often technically deficient, they are often far more thoughtful about what they are doing than the technicians. O-Sensei specifically warned against focusing too much on technique. The technique was always intended to be a means to another end that had nothing whatever to do with throwing people or even fighting at all.

My experience with the "martial boys" in general is that they are often quite unthoughtful about what they do. Many are almost totally unreflective about the art. This is the reason one has to look far and wide for a real teacher. To my mind, the teacher I would be looking for would be one who was technically very advanced but would also be able to speak to my heart about what we are doing and why we do it.

We make fun of the "aiki bunnies". But very often they are far better adjusted as people, more fun to be around, less aggressive, precisely the kind of folks we'd like for neighbors. On the other hand, many of the true hard core practitioners I know are totally fearful in their personal interactions, insecure as people, often somewhat isolated, have terrible interpersonal skills, and are trying to make up for the fact that they are terrified all the time by becoming more and more powerful.

I train with these guys and find their work is totally misguided. The physical and mental tension in what they do virtually destroys any real ability to do technique with real "aiki". It's all just muscle coupled with some speedy and fluid movement. You can tell when that is is what is going on because it's only the really big strong guys who can do it... and then, only on folks weaker than themselves. Women can't really do this kind of Aikido. Men of smaller stature cannot. Older folks can't do it. It's an Aikido that revolves around very strong, young men.

Being a large man myself, I find it amusing to have some person half my size trying to hurl me or crank a lock on me. But they are only imitating their teacher, who might actually be strong and mean enough to do it on me. Sure there are folks who are quite capable of cranking the shit out of me, especially when I am offering myself up to them as uke. But that doesn't make it good Aikido. Good Aikido can be done by on old man or a small woman because it relies on "aiki".

Most of what I see billing itself as "martially effective" Aikido is just Aikido with a lot of physical power. It's nothing more than jiu jutsu with more movement than other systems. Daito Ryu has three levels. Jiu Jutsu, aiki no jutsu, and aiki. What passes for martial Aikido, the stuff the hard boys are so proud of, is nothing more than entry level Daito Ryu. It won't work for anyone not able to generate vast amounts of physicality.

I know that there are various interpretations about what O-Sensei meant when he stated that "no one was doing his Aikido". Personally, I am convinced it had to do with two things... one was the lack of aiki in technique and the other was the disconnection between technique and the spiritual that he observed.

The three teachers who seemed to most completely reflect O-Sensei's take on Aikido were Sunadomari Sensei (an Omotokyo follower), Hikitsuchi Sensei out at Shingu, and Abe Sensei. The Aikido of each of these men is a mix of deep technical understanding with a very sophisticated spiritual and philosophical underpinning.

So, unless ones Aikido is at the point at which it represents that kind of balance, I suspect it misses the mark by just as much as the wishful thinking Aikido being done by the so-called "aiki bunnies".

Hello again George,

Why not bunny revealing? As opposed to bunny bashing?

I like bunnies who change from bunnies into aikidoka, then they become ex bunnies.....?

Marc Abrams
12-14-2010, 03:24 PM
George raises a good point. My nuanced take on this is as follows....

O'Sensei was able to talk about the high goals and ideals of his budo, BASED upon his real abilities as a martial artist. It is very easy to talk about peace, love,.... when you live a relatively safe life, without any real dangers and/or challenges to your well-being. This tends to be the realm of the Aiki-bunnies. They can talk the talk and act nice and "fuzzy." They tend to handle conflicts in a passive-aggressive manner and tend to do very poorly in physical conflicts. They do tend to make nice neighbors, but as serious martial artists.....? Moving toward and representing the ideals of the budo that O'Sensei envisioned should (in my opinion) come from serious training that tests one's ability to remain centered, focused and capable of moving and acting safely. Some of the greatest peacemakers were warriors in their younger years. They intimately knew conflict and could then use that knowledge to work toward peace.

I do not believe that training until your body has fallen apart prematurely in the only path toward that goal. I do not believe that you have to be in the middle of a war to move toward that goal. I do believe that we do have to move beyond the comforts of fuzzy words and surreal training in order to move toward that goal.

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams

valjean
12-14-2010, 03:58 PM
There's no need to recycle when something is already perfectly good...or, rather, as good as it ever was. What's to stop people from reading the old thread, saying to themselves, "Hmm, well, I have an opinion on this subject, but it looks like others have already said everything I was going to say. I don't really have anything to add, and a year-after-the-fact 'what he said' is kind of pointless, so I'll just skip it"?

Oh, I don't know. Some people engage in conversation because the act of conversing leads them to feel a part of a broader community. Others engage in conversation because the act of articulating a position and expressing a viewpoint itself can be learning experience. The notion that old conversations on aikido, or about the bible, or about anything else are "perfect," and that any new discussion reflects a dilution of what came before, seems kind of self-centered to me.

Obviously, recycling old threads is unpopular to many, and perhaps to most here. And I wouldn't presume to say I know enough about aikido to judge whether new comments do, or do not, have any particular merit in themselves. On the other hand, this is supposed to be a community bulletin board. If the response to revisiting old threads is: (1) this is pointless and a waste of time; and (2) how dare newbies or "bunnies" waste the collective bandwidth; and (3) the spirit of aikido is somehow degraded by such exchanges, then:

(1) it makes one sound like a crotchety 80-year-old; and
(2) it promotes a logical fallacy that greater life experience (or aikido experience) necessarily equates to greater wisdom; and
(3) it discourages conversation and self-expression in favor of silence.

Me personally, I have little wisdom and even less aikido skill -- but none of the above sounds very aiki to me.

Shadowfax
12-14-2010, 04:28 PM
Find another playmate or change your dojo.......;)

LOL it wasn't my dojo and of course I found lots more play mates since it was a fair sized seminar.:D

I love my dojo. It would take something pretty major to get me to leave it for another. :)

Actually, I would say that depends on two things. One would be the reaction of the person who just got shut down. Did she realize that a) she had just asked for it and b) it represented an opportunity for growth? Or did she simply walk away pissed off that some newbie had disrespected her.

Honestly I was not trying to be disrespectful. Just trying to give her what she wanted. My teachers have no trouble moving me when I give them a strong grab like that. :)

Anyway right about then sensei clapped and we broke it off. She pretty much steered clear of me the rest of the weekend.

aikilouis
12-14-2010, 04:31 PM
The three teachers who seemed to most completely reflect O-Sensei's take on Aikido were Sunadomari Sensei (an Omotokyo follower), Hikitsuchi Sensei out at Shingu, and Abe Sensei. The Aikido of each of these men is a mix of deep technical understanding with a very sophisticated spiritual and philosophical underpinning.
Abe Seiseki sensei of Osaka, to be precise and avoid confusion.

Anjisan
12-14-2010, 05:45 PM
So I am visiting another dojo. As a guest I am on my best behavior. I got paired with this person and I grabbed his wrist in the "I am visiting someone else's dojo" manner, certainly not how I would normally have grabbed someone if I was training seriously. This person was completely unable to do tenkan... couldn't move at all, in fact.

The person in question then looked at and said "You are very resistant... your energy body is not very sensitive..."

Now, at that time, my energy body wasn't very sensitive... but the person in question had no idea how to do a tenkan when grabbed either. When it's the other guy's fault you can't do your technique, things have gotten seriously mucked up.

At the dojo that I train at I constantly remind newer students not to fall into the "Goldilocks Syndrome" where one has to have the attack just right, in just a certain way---and if you do it for them then boy, they can really do that technique. Life does not work that way, attackers who bear you serious ill will don't work that way and healthy relationships do not work that way. It is in my opinion, crap and a weak way of training that is harmful not only to the individual in the long run, but to the other members of the dojo as well.

Of course these same individuals can be overheard giving instruction to even new students reinforcing this disfunction and one knows that they will want to get promoted and even formally teach at some point. One can only hope that such behavior can be weeded out or there might be a very rude awakening somewhere down the path either on the mat or on the street.

ravenest
12-14-2010, 07:02 PM
Well, who knows however all this came about? But I have noticed some things.

I have a little varied martial arts experience, I go up against a very competent Aikidoka, he evades my technique and comes back with a strike (palm heel) to the side of my jaw. I see it coming and turn my head and try to pull away to decrease the impact. He follows and pushes my head over. I can feel that in this position, to resist is dangerous and could cause injury to me so I go with it and curve over. He follows staying right on me so I go with it and roll out. He can move in mid roll and get me if I'm not quick enough or just stand there and see if I want to try attacking again.

Now if none of that is explained it looks like I took a dive. So some students think that is the way to receive the technique, and it may be from a competent aikidoka. But not against a sloppy attack that is open to counter everywhere. [ Thats why interclub visits are great eg. I was told to attack yokomanuchi in a very specific (crazy to me) way. So I had to abandon what I would normally do from karate practice. These dudes visit from another club, their yokoman is like mine used to be and if you did it the way I was now told, to them, youd just get slapped in the face with the other hand ... "keep your guard up!" ]

But 3 weeks later people are still attacking in this dangerous manner? As thats they way we do it here.

And here is something else that probably pays a BIG part in it all. I have noticed that training seems geared towards grading. People are very interested in practicing a 'performance' duo for each technique that is required for next training ... "Dont worry, I'll do it good for you so you will get your kyu' ????

You know .... its possible to get a black belt before too long :cool:

MY problem is I live in an area with VAST distance between dojos, in the old days, in Sydney, I guess I got spoilt, I could choose my night (or not show) and choose where, all within a bus or train ride and the best dojo was 4 mins walk down the street. Ah - happy days!

Here is another one, I grab a wrist the person turns so I just let go ... now they havent a clue what to do and say to me "You didnt do the technique properly." or "You have a weak grip."

In the past if I let go, or couldnt hold on that wrist instantly came back to wack me just under the nose (in a slightly upward direction)
it was a great way of teaching WHY and developing strength.

Anjisan
12-14-2010, 07:43 PM
Abe Seiseki sensei of Osaka, to be precise and avoid confusion.

The Abe sensei that promoted Seagal sensei to 6th Dan???

Randall Lim
12-14-2010, 08:58 PM
This reminds me of an experience I had last spring at a seminar. I'm just 5th kyu and still working out how to be when visiting a different dojo. So trying to be very polite I thought I recalled working with a particular yundasha the night before and that she had an injured wrist. Not wanting to cause further injury I grabbed her more lightly than is my norm. Still trying to give a committed attack but without the strong grip I usually have. So we were doing the excercise that sensei had given us and it seemed to be going well.

Anyway after a moment, this person decides to offer some advice and says to me, " you need to work on your strength. It's ok I used to have the same problem, you will get there. Just be aware that you need to work on it."

Now I have never had anyone say such a thing to me before. I'm not exactly a weak person as I trim horses hooves for part of my living and I never get accused of giving it away. I had to stifle a laugh to stay polite, so I asked her, " do you mean physical strength as in you would like a stronger grip?" She says yes. So I'm like ok you asked for it. Grabbed her with my usual style and got very heavy. She got a very strange look on her face when she suddenly could not move me.

Maybe what she meant was that she could not feel the "connection" of the contact. "Connection" to link both your centres.

I believe the intensity of an Uke's grab has an optimum level. Not too loose that no "connection" is felt that can link both centres. Not too tight that leaves Uke too rigid to move accordingly to protect himself.

Just my 2-cents worth...

Randall Lim
12-14-2010, 09:16 PM
Actually, I would say that depends on two things. One would be the reaction of the person who just got shut down. Did she realize that a) she had just asked for it and b) it represented an opportunity for growth? Or did she simply walk away pissed off that some newbie had disrespected her.

The other would be the attitude of the teacher at the dojo. These kind of interactions happen all the time. If the training properly, when a technique fails to work, the proper response is "thank you". As long as no one is doing anything that is martially stupid like hunkering down and doing that constipated, you can't move me ridiculousness, I don't ever want to see seniors getting pissed off at juniors because their stuff didn't work nor do I expect to see my seniors adjusting the ukemi of the juniors so that their own technique starts to work, which is, I am afraid, quite common.

A little damage to the ego in training is a fine thing. I don't think the poster should necessarily look for a new dojo just because of some interaction which he or she felt was insulting on some level. I definitely think that the senior in this case should be working on maintaining his or her equilibrium and fixing whatever technical issues led to getting shut down.

These kinds of interactions are inevitable in a dojo because practice is done between human beings. In a lot of the dojos I have seen, the ones that think they are doing serious martial training, this kind of interaction would have led to the senior trying to hurt the junior in order to demonstrate his superiority. That's unacceptable and is a reason to leave the dojo if that type of behavior was tolerated or modeled by the teacher.

In my opinion, different Aikido ryus & styles have different training approaches & learning expectations of their students.

For example, some schools focus on mechanical techniques only for their kyu grades, ignoring the concepts of Ki extension, connection, the flow & centredness until the dan grades.
While other schools focus on the concepts of Ki extension, connection, the flow & centredness, ignoring the wide variety of techniques until the dan grades.

As such, knowing these differences in the training approaches of different schools, we will begin to understand the different levels of expectations even between Aikidokas of the same rank/grade.

Keith Larman
12-14-2010, 09:37 PM
I'll also raise a small nit here. If you grab hard and also "sink your center" I would wonder if you're also being a bit difficult as well. Of course a person with skill should be able to deal with it regardless, but it would also depend on the technique being taught, whether atemi was allowed, etc. Often for katatetori to be an "attack" there has to be something more than the feel you've just been grabbed by a 800 pound sack of cement. That grab poses zero threat and frankly you might as well just cold cock them or peel back a finger breaking it and walking away. If the person grabbing, however, grabs strongly and begins something or another then nage has something to concrete to work with.

Of course it all depends on the scenario. I've got enough experience where I can frustrate most people by being a complete jerk and completely negating whatever they try. But at that point I'm not attacking, just negating. If I grab and think I'm grabbing this one hand to control it while I"m about to chamber a punch with the other, or pull the person, or push in and intimidate, etc. then they certainly have something to work with.

Anyway, I don't know what the real deal was as a larger context would be needed to really say. But sometimes the attack a newbie gives isn't an attack at all. And with a complete newb I'll often toss them anyway (usually in a way slightly different than what we're doing). Then I'll usually talk a bit about how sometimes a particular technique is what you'd do under certain attacking conditions. And grabbing hard and sinking into the ground like a stalled Buick isn't often a viable attack.

It does remind me of something I saw years ago. I was visiting a customer of mine one day where the visiting instructor was from some koryu I didn't know. He was demonstrating something where the attacker grabbed his hand holding a tanto. A big dude volunteered. He was covered in tattoos, wearing a pair of shorts with MMA graphics, and was a visiting with some degree of skepticism about these traditional art things. Anyway, he grabbed his arm really hard and sank into the ground, obviously grounding out and just locking things up. The sensei was going to show a freeing movement which the big fella knew going in. This little Japanese guy just looked at him a second with a glare then tagged him in the throat with his fingers with one of the fastest shots I'd ever seen. Big fella lets go of his hand holding the tanto. The sensei then proceeded to basically disembowel the guy with the wooden tanto (well, what would have been a complete disemboweling had it been real). Started at the fella's left side of his neck, went around the front to the right side, somehow changed his grip mid-technique then diagonally down his body then through the main artery in the left leg with a reverse grip. The impact at the start of the diagonal down cut actually knocked the guy backwards and he crumpled as he cut down to the leg. The fella would have probably would have been unconscious before he would have hit the ground from blood loss and shock. And dead within a minute. Had it been real, of course.

He then excused the fella trying to relearn how to breath and called someone else up who grabbed the wrist strongly, but with intent to control but also prepared to protect himself from the other arm, feet, etc. Then the sensei went into his demo about freeing the held wrist the way he originally intended. Because there was not a snowball's chance in hell the attacker could just focus everything on that one wrist and ground everything out.

That made an impression on me.

FWIW the MMA guy was fine. Just a bruised throat and ego.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 04:08 AM
"This little Japanese guy just looked at him a second with a glare then tagged him in the throat with his fingers with one of the fastest shots I'd ever seen."

Ta Taaaaaaa!! ;) :D evileyes :hypno: :eek: :cool:

Shadowfax
12-15-2010, 08:24 AM
Maybe what she meant was that she could not feel the "connection" of the contact. "Connection" to link both your centres.

I believe the intensity of an Uke's grab has an optimum level. Not too loose that no "connection" is felt that can link both centres. Not too tight that leaves Uke too rigid to move accordingly to protect himself.

Just my 2-cents worth...

It's possible but not too likely. While I do sometimes tend to forget to put energy behind my attacks that's kind of rare for me. I am very sensitive to feel (equestrians need to be) and I do know what connection feels like. But I did specifically ask her to clarify as she was my senior and I am always open to learning from other people. She was very specific in addressing the need for me to gain more physical strength not strength of connection and again I know the difference. Of course it is just possible that she just used the wrong terminology to express herself.

I'll also raise a small nit here. If you grab hard and also "sink your center" I would wonder if you're also being a bit difficult as well. Of course a person with skill should be able to deal with it regardless, but it would also depend on the technique being taught, whether atemi was allowed, etc. Often for katatetori to be an "attack" there has to be something more than the feel you've just been grabbed by a 800 pound sack of cement. That grab poses zero threat and frankly you might as well just cold cock them or peel back a finger breaking it and walking away. If the person grabbing, however, grabs strongly and begins something or another then nage has something to concrete to work with.


LOL my teachers have taught me better than to ever attack with such an attitude.

If someone truly gets me they have me. I don't play games. But I also don't give it away for free. ;)

I gave the very same attack to Ikeda sensei several times that weekend. He certainly did not seem displeased. :)

Anjisan
12-15-2010, 08:39 AM
Maybe what she meant was that she could not feel the "connection" of the contact. "Connection" to link both your centres.

I believe the intensity of an Uke's grab has an optimum level. Not too loose that no "connection" is felt that can link both centres. Not too tight that leaves Uke too rigid to move accordingly to protect himself.

Just my 2-cents worth...

It seems to me that the static grab attack while perhaps unfortunately necessary for beginners, is not in an aiki direction. In other words, while it certainly is necessary to be able to deal with such an attack, it seems better to practice "leading" and not let the uke grab you how they want. As a Nage, he or she is-in my opinion,........... late. Perhaps there was not the latitude with who was teaching that particular class.

However, if there was, then the yudansha should be less concerned about the strength of the grab and be more concerned with why she let herself be grabbed (and threatened through implication of the other had and weapons the Uke has at that range) in the manner the Uke desired. Who is dictating the interaction-the Uke or is the Nage-just be reactive?

I have seen it with plenty of seniors as well including myself-either because they never learned to break the the often inevitable habit or had a mind gaff because one forgets how dangerous the attack has the potential to be.

Keith Larman
12-15-2010, 09:01 AM
LOL my teachers have taught me better than to ever attack with such an attitude.


Good. :) Like I said, wasn't there and I was keying off the comment about sinking. There is one guy I train with who for whatever reason has never gotten the idea that you don't just grab like a bag of rocks. And he wonders why every now and then someone will dump his butt in some odd way. Well, usually because his attack is sometimes stupidly dead.

phitruong
12-15-2010, 09:08 AM
It seems to me that the static grab attack while perhaps unfortunately necessary for beginners, is not in an aiki direction. In other words, while it certainly is necessary to be able to deal with such an attack, it seems better to practice "leading" and not let the uke grab you how they want. As a Nage, he or she is-in my opinion,........... late. Perhaps there was not the latitude with who was teaching that particular class.
.

leading is the normal, as in current, aikido approach which most folks do today (my, was that a lot of redundant). ever heard of "motion in stillness"? just because i am not physically moving, doesn't mean that i am not moving in some other way; thus the term "internal power".

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 09:22 AM
Just reading these latter posts here seems to me that many aikidoka keep referring to the "hold my wrist syndrome" which is all very well, but is not good in just using that for novices.... I teach this right from the start...... by doing light atemi and getting my students to avoid with their bodies completely in any direction they can and finding out for themselves what they can and can't do. I also teach basic atemi in all it's myriad forms as a warm up in preparation for their practice to follow, starting with an entry waza such as ushiro ate (rear attack) then utilizing all the other atemi waza inherent in T/S aikido.....
We of course hold one anothers wrists to find out kuzushi which to me is non evident in most of the aikido we see today.... that's where the aiki is...... it's in the kuzushi.....

Chris Evans
12-15-2010, 09:34 AM
Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.

Shadowfax
12-15-2010, 09:35 AM
It seems to me that the static grab attack while perhaps unfortunately necessary for beginners, is not in an aiki direction. In other words, while it certainly is necessary to be able to deal with such an attack, it seems better to practice "leading" and not let the uke grab you how they want. As a Nage, he or she is-in my opinion,........... late. Perhaps there was not the latitude with who was teaching that particular class.

However, if there was, then the yudansha should be less concerned about the strength of the grab and be more concerned with why she let herself be grabbed (and threatened through implication of the other had and weapons the Uke has at that range) in the manner the Uke desired. Who is dictating the interaction-the Uke or is the Nage-just be reactive?

I have seen it with plenty of seniors as well including myself-either because they never learned to break the the often inevitable habit or had a mind gaff because one forgets how dangerous the attack has the potential to be.

I agree with this and it is something that we have been working on in class of late. Moving from the static attack of a beginner into the more fluid dynamics of a more advanced student and even exploring the concept of nage initiating the entire process. It's quite fascinating.

In defense of the person I was training with. We were working on an excercise which required a static grab.

Good. :) Like I said, wasn't there and I was keying off the comment about sinking. There is one guy I train with who for whatever reason has never gotten the idea that you don't just grab like a bag of rocks. And he wonders why every now and then someone will dump his butt in some odd way. Well, usually because his attack is sometimes stupidly dead.

It's all good. Any newer person reading this or anyone who has this habit will benefit form the comments.

I've had guys grab me that way many times. It's kind of annoying to me so I don't do it to others. Not to mention I have seen the results of trying that on a yundasha. It's entertaining watching them try that trick on sensei. :D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 10:24 AM
Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.

Read this..... http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

C. David Henderson
12-15-2010, 10:27 AM
Hi Tony,

I could not open this link. FYI

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 11:03 AM
Hi Tony,

I could not open this link. FYI

Sorry Charles have checked it and it works from here....?:straightf

Chris Evans
12-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Read this..... http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

awesome:

from the above site:
"...Make no mistake, I respect Aikido and its principals. I do not respect the people who over the years with their inflated grades and ego's have tried to change what was once a martial art in to some quasi religion to suit their own inadequate purpose. These people use this BS to avoid a real situation or a conflict where they may one day need to apply some of the vapourised bs they have been harmonising and teaching for years.
These plastic Samurai creep out from behind their computer screens to leave comments on my videos or articles...........I have never had ONE visit my dojo or gym...

Show me a dojo in or near Berkeley with teachers & students that enjoy the preparation it takes to play (or "fight" as many MMA folks like to say) in the MMA cage, then I'll join and split my time with BJJ/Judo, but 2/week Aikido does not seem to be enough...

C. David Henderson
12-15-2010, 11:35 AM
Now it worked. Thank you.

David

sakumeikan
12-15-2010, 12:37 PM
Because...

mostly that (1) too much idealistic consideration's given to the felon's safety at the unacceptable risk of the defender's
and
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.

I'm just explaining why. I believe Aikido's for real, but for a large portion of Aikido-ka (and also for many in Karate-ka) self-knowledge through managing fear, pain, and fully practical physical skills is not a priority: The mind is polished through the "bitter" work on the body, that's a full circle. Many folks are comfortable with delusional or limited martial arts, like doing moving, compliant, yoga.

Unless Aikido-ka get known for breaking bones using Aikido the perception will not change.

Dear Chris,
Who do you suggest should be the candidate/s for the bone breaking?You, your students or some other guys?Do you want to go out and find somebody in the street and break them up just to promote the image of Aikido as a Martial Art?I personally dont care whether anybody thinks I do an effective/ ineffective art.My own experiences in this game [over 40 years ] leads me to to the opinion that Aikido can if the situation merits it,be martial.
Having the ability to [as you put it ]break bones, does not
mean you have to.
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
All the best , Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 01:05 PM
Because...
...
somewhat that (2) only very very few Aikido-only person could do well testing their art in a MMA/UFC type of pressure, in an open call for challenges: if Aikido-ka would break bones in such agreed duels then people will know Aikido's for real.
So you are asking aikidoka to do things that MMA practitioners do not usually do?. Bone breaking is not common in MMA.

Joe Curran wrote:
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
As long as they have a backup if things don't go as expected

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 01:13 PM
It's all coming out now.....verbal keyboard diarrhoeal by the bucket load....
And it ain't from Rick Ellis.....

Chris Evans
12-15-2010, 01:19 PM
Dear Chris,
Who do you suggest should be the candidate/s for the bone breaking?You, your students or some other guys?Do you want to go out and find somebody in the street and break them up just to promote the image of Aikido as a Martial Art?I personally dont care whether anybody thinks I do an effective/ ineffective art.My own experiences in this game [over 40 years ] leads me to to the opinion that Aikido can if the situation merits it,be martial.
Having the ability to [as you put it ]break bones, does not
mean you have to.
Rather than be concerned about image, do you not feel as responsible people we should advocate non violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations?
All the best , Joe.

Dear Joe,

The candidate(s) for the "bone breaking" agreed duels in judged challenges, with referee, should be any prepared Aikido-ka ready to open a dojo that'll attract sincere martial artists, like that way Yong-I Choi, aka Mas Oyamas, did for Kyokushin karate-do or the Gracie folks did for Jiujiusu. While I would like that experience, I am not ready, but I am ready to spar in a MMA format, using headgear, UFC-gloves, and shin-instep pads: there I've learned that the basic jab, reverse punch to face, & low round kick (or high round kick) combo' to practical for me.

Having the ability to (1) break bones yet also knowing when & how to prevent or (2) resolve conflicts in a peaceful, non-violent, way is the goal of all budo: Without both pursuits, you are doing moving yoga, which is fine, just as you're satisfied with that truth: Such comfort orientated students are appreciated, supporting the dojo that also teach the fully sincere students.

Non-violence and peaceful resolution in potential conflict situations should be reserved for people of common cause: ie. Civil Rights advocates in the USA, South Africa, and India, but not for violent felons, the KKK, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban --these people deserve their full karma

Image or sincere reputation: a catch 22.

Hellis
12-15-2010, 04:14 PM
This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.
I would imagine it is like an Aikido guy with multi coloured ribbons against an MMA fighter.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/Capoeira-Fighter-wmv

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 04:35 PM
This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.

You know it is from a movie (Never Back Down), isn't it? Its as absurd as pointing to a Steven Seagal movie to validate aikido.

FYI, I know and have trained with capoeira players who fight in MMA/Vale Tudo with some success. Go figure.

Anjisan
12-15-2010, 04:49 PM
You know it is from a movie (Never Back Down), isn't it? Its as absurd as pointing to a Steven Seagal movie to validate aikido.

FYI, I know and have trained with capoeira players who fight in MMA/Vale Tudo with some success. Go figure.

I completely understand your point, but when Seagal sensei arrived on the movie scene in the late 80s, the numbers of Aikido students surged. He did help the art. At the time, I was in American kick-boxing and I can tell you that there was a lot of skepticism concerning Aikido and its effectiveness.

In essence, I kept reading and hearing that it was the hippie ponytail guys who couldn't fight/defend themselves out of a wet paper bag so to speak, but talk a big game of philosophical conjecture and nose in the air ideals--ie if you didn't do AIkido the implication being how could one really understand. I belive that when looking at the totality of circumstances, Seagal sensei did much more to help than hurt the image of Aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Seagal sensei did much more to help than hurt the image of Aikido.

If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.

Anjisan
12-15-2010, 05:12 PM
If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.

I would think that any of the well known martial artists-- Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and many others would be subject to the same criticism I'm sure. But then that is why it is a Hollywood depiction and not a documentary. If you have seen The Path Beyond Thought, Seagal seemed to be able to walk the walk long before he was up on the silver screen. Perhaps it would have been better for him if he could have lead with that instead of a few of his movies-although Above the Law wasn't bad in my opinion-no wire work that is for sure and Matsuoka sensei's ukemi was pretty sweet.

Anjisan
12-15-2010, 05:20 PM
If helping the image of aikido is giving a fictional portrait of it, so be it. I'd rater prefer a realistic one.

Besides, it is ultimately the responsibility of dojo teachers to frame a realistic picture of Aikido for new students. Seagal sensei did his part by helping get them there.

sakumeikan
12-15-2010, 05:35 PM
Dear Chris,
I did indicate that ideally one should have the potential to harm someone if circumstances were such that violent action was the only option.At the same time I feel that you should try wherever possible to solve issues by peaceful means.
As far as the Taliban /Al Quaeda are concerned have these groups and the UK/USA ever taken the time to enter into a meaningful dialogue officially ?Are we doomed to a battle [with subsequent loss of life in both sides] for the next decade or more? I do not profess to know the answer here but Winston Churchill stated quote Better to Jaw Jaw than War War.
May I also state that MMA/ Brazilian Jiu Jitsu /Karate is sport and is not quite the same as an encounter in real life?There are no refs or rules in a real life.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 06:21 PM
This video has been around a while, if you have not seen it ? then it is worth a look at a MMA fighter and a very flashy Capoeira fighter.
I would imagine it is like an Aikido guy with multi coloured ribbons against an MMA fighter.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/Capoeira-Fighter-wmv

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

I just so love that one Henry..... :D :freaky:

Hellis
12-15-2010, 06:27 PM
I just so love that one Henry..... :D :freaky:

Tony

You will love this one too...You can choose your own colours for the ribbons...let me know how you get on, you don't need a maypole :)

http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/The-Way-Of-Harmony-With-Ki

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 06:32 PM
Blimey!!! What is this?

Hellis
12-15-2010, 06:45 PM
Tony
Re: The ribbon video.

If I recall correctly, you were in the Royal Navy ??? If so, are you able to tell us what messages are being sent by semaphore ???

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 07:09 PM
Tony
Re: The ribbon video.

If I recall correctly, you were in the Royal Navy ??? If so, are you able to tell us what messages are being sent by semaphore ???

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

I think it reads.... I'm an airy fairy..... SOS..... I'm an airy fairy and I'm lairy..... I'm so cool, I'm so cool.... pat a cake pat a cake bakers man.... give me a shafting as quick as you can......

I think? :D :) ;)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 07:20 PM
You know Henry I've just finished my late shift and there wasn't much about.... I felt I needed a good laugh and popped on here ..... glad I did...:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2010, 07:23 PM
Blimey!!! What is this?

New age Aikido Semaphore for the severely mentally handicapped.....:D ;) I know you know.....:D

salim
12-15-2010, 08:05 PM
New age Aikido Semaphore for the severely mentally handicapped.....:D ;) I know you know.....:D

Aikido is for show, not real world. That's why we philosophy so much about our art. We can accept that.

Randall Lim
12-15-2010, 08:07 PM
It seems to me that the static grab attack while perhaps unfortunately necessary for beginners, is not in an aiki direction. In other words, while it certainly is necessary to be able to deal with such an attack, it seems better to practice "leading" and not let the uke grab you how they want. As a Nage, he or she is-in my opinion,........... late. Perhaps there was not the latitude with who was teaching that particular class.

However, if there was, then the yudansha should be less concerned about the strength of the grab and be more concerned with why she let herself be grabbed (and threatened through implication of the other had and weapons the Uke has at that range) in the manner the Uke desired. Who is dictating the interaction-the Uke or is the Nage-just be reactive?

I have seen it with plenty of seniors as well including myself-either because they never learned to break the the often inevitable habit or had a mind gaff because one forgets how dangerous the attack has the potential to be.

This is exactly what my Sensei emphasises so much on: ie leading & luring.

My sensei would gently knock me on the head whatever he catches me allowing Uke to get a good grip on me without moving & leading him before contact is made. He always stresses that once Uke gets a good grip on me, there would be no more Aiki, & thus much more difficult to apply any technique.

He always stresses that Nage should lead Uke up to the point where Uke achieves a grib but has gotten himself into an ackward position. Breaking balance is then very easy.

phitruong
12-15-2010, 08:54 PM
.... once Uke gets a good grip on me, there would be no more Aiki, & thus much more difficult to apply any technique.


really? gosh! i got to tell Ikeda sensei that he has no aiki, since he got two big guys locked on him in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1fi3laBQRM&feature=related and not lead & lure them first. the news would break his heart. oh the poor man! practicing aikido all these years and nothing to show for! ;)

mickeygelum
12-15-2010, 10:50 PM
I would think that any of the well known martial artists-- Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and many others would be subject to the same criticism I'm sure

....Bruce took on all comers, and Chuck was an accomplished full-contact fighter... Seagal on the other hand was a movie made badass. Ask Ol' Steve about Mr LaBell, he still has stains in his dogi.

Please, if you are going to use Seagal as a role model, at least be honest about it... and to diminish Matsuokas' ability to make Seagal appear more than he is that is a shame.


@Tony...let's be careful out there! ;)

mickeygelum
12-15-2010, 11:00 PM
{sigh} another 2 yr old thread resurrected....


Oh I don't know. I think there's enormous value in repeating what was already said many times as if it were new and original thought.

I'll do my penalty laps for snark, but honestly people...you had that coming

....140 posts later...:rolleyes:

Hellis
12-16-2010, 02:40 AM
I think it reads.... I'm an airy fairy..... SOS..... I'm an airy fairy and I'm lairy..... I'm so cool, I'm so cool.... pat a cake pat a cake bakers man.... give me a shafting as quick as you can......

I think? :D :) ;)

http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Tony

I did wonder if this video was created for ` Bullshido `. They just love this kind of stuff....To be fair the guy in the video has a good background in Traditional Aikido....
Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 03:52 AM
Aikido is for show, not real world. That's why we philosophy so much about our art. We can accept that.

What does philosophy mean? .......:hypno:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 03:55 AM
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Tony

I did wonder if this video was created for ` Bullshido `. They just love this kind of stuff....To be fair the guy in the video has a good background in Traditional Aikido....
Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

So either he was taking the proverbial out of himself.....
Or was he having a bad hair day?

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 04:05 AM
really? gosh! i got to tell Ikeda sensei that he has no aiki, since he got two big guys locked on him in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1fi3laBQRM&feature=related and not lead & lure them first. the news would break his heart. oh the poor man! practicing aikido all these years and nothing to show for! ;)

I noticed the slight forward push of the hips from the centre which weakens the posture of uke, before the actual tenkan. This causes the push back reaction in the leading uke....... hey presto aiki!!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 04:10 AM
....140 posts later...:rolleyes:

Hee Hee!!!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 04:37 AM
....Bruce took on all comers, and Chuck was an accomplished full-contact fighter... Seagal on the other hand was a movie made badass. Ask Ol' Steve about Mr LaBell, he still has stains in his dogi.

Please, if you are going to use Seagal as a role model, at least be honest about it... and to diminish Matsuokas' ability to make Seagal appear more than he is that is a shame.

@Tony...let's be careful out there! ;)

Michael I'm always careful out there.....;)

Us cabbies develop a sixth sense......:hypno: evileyes

Well some of us do...... the rest either take a bashing, get robbed or trashed.....

Hellis
12-16-2010, 04:50 AM
Michael I'm always careful out there.....;)

Us cabbies develop a sixth sense......:hypno: evileyes

Well some of us do...... the rest either take a bashing, get robbed or trashed.....

Tony

You should start classes with your fellow cabbies, teach them
the lethal ``ribbon defence `` they could tie the drunks up in knots ;)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 05:02 AM
Tony

You should start classes with your fellow cabbies, teach them
the lethal ``ribbon defence `` they could tie the drunks up in knots ;)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tried that one Henry..... Most are either so out of shape have diabetes, grossly over weight and get out of the cab with great difficulty, on account their seats are stuck to their backsides....:D

As for the ribbons, I need some to wrap up the crimbo presents......
Got any spare? I prefer green ones....:D

Hellis
12-16-2010, 05:17 AM
Tried that one Henry..... Most are either so out of shape have diabetes, grossly over weight and get out of the cab with great difficulty, on account their seats are stuck to their backsides....:D

As for the ribbons, I need some to wrap up the crimbo presents......
Got any spare? I prefer green ones....:D

Tony

It would be quite a spectactle to see a whole Aikido class with those synchronized ribbons..

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 08:23 AM
Tony

It would be quite a spectactle to see a whole Aikido class with those synchronized ribbons..

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Do I answer that with my hand on hip and a limp wrist?.....:D

Mary Eastland
12-16-2010, 09:29 AM
Why don't you just take them out and measure them...then we can lay this to rest.
In the forum rules it says to treat each other with respect....I don't like Aikido Organizations because of this kind of Cr#$%^P.
Can't you find some common ground that isn't promoting yoursleves?
Mary

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 10:01 AM
Why don't you just take them out and measure them...then we can lay this to rest.
In the forum rules it says to treat each other with respect....I don't like Aikido Organizations because of this kind of Cr#$%^P.
Can't you find some common ground that isn't promoting yoursleves?
Mary

Here it comes.....;) :rolleyes:

Hellis
12-16-2010, 10:28 AM
Here it comes.....;) :rolleyes:

Serves you right !! you brought this on yourself.:) :) :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Anjisan
12-16-2010, 10:50 AM
This is exactly what my Sensei emphasises so much on: ie leading & luring.

My sensei would gently knock me on the head whatever he catches me allowing Uke to get a good grip on me without moving & leading him before contact is made. He always stresses that once Uke gets a good grip on me, there would be no more Aiki, & thus much more difficult to apply any technique.

He always stresses that Nage should lead Uke up to the point where Uke achieves a grib but has gotten himself into an ackward position. Breaking balance is then very easy.

Exactly--well put!!

Anjisan
12-16-2010, 11:05 AM
....Bruce took on all comers, and Chuck was an accomplished full-contact fighter... Seagal on the other hand was a movie made badass. Ask Ol' Steve about Mr LaBell, he still has stains in his dogi.

Please, if you are going to use Seagal as a role model, at least be honest about it... and to diminish Matsuokas' ability to make Seagal appear more than he is that is a shame.

@Tony...let's be careful out there! ;)

I don't believe that I am saying that Seagal sensei is a role model by any means but merely that he drove in students when he began making movies. I think that there were allegations of Bruce having been with other woman/women who was/were not his wife and if true, only proves that no one is perfect. Also, it seems to me that Seagal must have some serious skill to get to 7th dan regardless of his ex-wifes dojo blah blah blah. I would think that it would be insulting to- I believe Abe sensei- who promoted him to 6th dan that Seagal sensei has less than his ranked level of skill.

Further, if one looks at the film The Path Beyond Thought (or view clips of it on YouTube) it seems quite apparent for anyone who has been doing Aikido for a while that he has real skill. Finally it would seem to be insulting to Matsuoka sensei that he was so stupid to be a uchi deshi for a Seagal for what--20 years if he only thought his job was to make him look good and not that Seagal had something worthwhile to learn regardless of personal shortcomings which I am sure many Shihan have but the bright light is not glaring on them so they stay safely hidden.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Serves you right !! you brought this on yourself.:) :) :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Fun while it lasted.... Oh well! :D back to training:D :) :rolleyes:

I've just done an hour and felt like a cup of rosy.... hows things down in the warren?

Tony

Hellis
12-16-2010, 11:45 AM
Fun while it lasted.... Oh well! :D back to training:D :) :rolleyes:

I've just done an hour and felt like a cup of rosy.... hows things down in the warren?

Tony

Just keeping my head down at the moment :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://www.british-aikido.com/positive_aikido_book.htm

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Why don't you just take them out and measure them...then we can lay this to rest.
In the forum rules it says to treat each other with respect....I don't like Aikido Organizations because of this kind of Cr#$%^P.
Can't you find some common ground that isn't promoting yoursleves?
Mary

C'mon Mary don't take it to heart, It's only a bit of 'armless fun or are you just another sensitive bunnie....?
I love Bunnies..... really..... all fluffy and cute...... and mighty, mighty tasty in a good curry......:D ;) :rolleyes:
They look even more cute with ribbons tied round 'em.....
I had one as a pet and we had to eat him when Dad got made redundant..... But that was along time ago and I got over it.....

George S. Ledyard
12-16-2010, 01:56 PM
This is exactly what my Sensei emphasises so much on: ie leading & luring.

My sensei would gently knock me on the head whatever he catches me allowing Uke to get a good grip on me without moving & leading him before contact is made. He always stresses that once Uke gets a good grip on me, there would be no more Aiki, & thus much more difficult to apply any technique.

He always stresses that Nage should lead Uke up to the point where Uke achieves a grib but has gotten himself into an ackward position. Breaking balance is then very easy.

I am not in disagreement that it is far preferable to not still be at the focal point of the uke's power when he gets there. But the statement
He always stresses that once Uke gets a good grip on me, there would be no more Aiki
is simply not true. "Aiki" is applicable regardless. If the strength of the attack makes it more difficult, it's not "aiki".

This is what has happened to Aikido... Because people didn't understand crucial elements of how "aiki" works, it has become an art of "escaping" from an attack, rather than "joining with: and attack. Most Aikido you see is what I would call the "aiki of movement" and there is nothing inherently wrong with that part of it. It's great and is an essential part of the art. But because people do not understand "aiki" they think that "aiki" is simply non-resistant movement.

I would hope that the various Internal power discussions would have disabused folks of this notion. There is a reason that static practice is an important part of training in Aikido. Look at a demo in which the Sensei allows two, three, or four people to grab his arm at the same time... What is crucial to understand about that is that if it is harder to move those four than it would have been to move one, it isn't "aiki".

"Aiki" is about giving direction to the energy of the connection. This can be done regardless of the power being delivered because it has no resistance. If one understands how to make the contact point neutral, movement is effortless. This has not been well transmitted in Aikido so many people have ended up trying to neutralize the opponent's power by escaping from it. Getting kuzushi this way only works if the attacker is not very competent. Someone skilled will not imbalance himself just because you changed the distance on him.

Limiting Aikido to the "aiki of movement" without understanding the "aiki of joining" (my own terms for these things) requires that the ukes be taught a style of ukemi that is designed to make the techniques work.

I believe that it is crucial to the survival of the art in some quality sense that we put far more emphasis on proper static work at the beginning of every student's training. Then, when moving people would understand that the connection they had when doing static technique is a movable connection and not an escape. No one who has trained should believe that "aiki" stops if the opponent gets a strong connection. That is a low level understanding of these principles.

Chris Li
12-16-2010, 05:38 PM
This is what has happened to Aikido... Because people didn't understand crucial elements of how "aiki" works, it has become an art of "escaping" from an attack, rather than "joining with: and attack. Most Aikido you see is what I would call the "aiki of movement" and there is nothing inherently wrong with that part of it. It's great and is an essential part of the art. But because people do not understand "aiki" they think that "aiki" is simply non-resistant movement.

I would say that "aiki" is true non-resistant movement. What most people are talking about when they talk about non-resistant movement in Aikido is mostly evasion.

Best,

Chris

Mary Eastland
12-16-2010, 05:57 PM
Hi Tony:
Whoops. I just watched the videos and I have say I agree with you. Sorry for my rude comment. I really liked the MMA one.
Mary

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2010, 09:12 PM
Hi Tony:
Whoops. I just watched the videos and I have say I agree with you. Sorry for my rude comment. I really liked the MMA one.
Mary

Mary, you don't have to apologise!!.... Take it in the fun that it was intended to be....;) :D

It's just me and Henry taking the proverbial.....;) I'm big and ugly enough to take it back as good as the rest.....

If people are happy being aiki bunnies, who really gives a monkeys :D ? They only do aikido disservice and ridicule themselves...
They may or may not have a rude awakening one day.... Just tough if they do, I don't think I will be sympathetic in the least. I just happen to live in the real world that's all.....:)

George S. Ledyard
12-17-2010, 05:22 AM
I would say that "aiki" is true non-resistant movement. What most people are talking about when they talk about non-resistant movement in Aikido is mostly evasion.

Best,

Chris

Sure, this is really more true than the way I usually express it. I was just trying to draw the contrast between what most folks call "aiki" , which is all the big movement designed to keep one ahead of the opponent's power and true "aiki" which is contained within that conventional large movement and also allows very small technique that for many, isn't really Aikido as they have thought of it.

An example would be what Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei is doing. I heard of one senior Federation teacher who didn't think what Ikeda Sensei is doing is even Aikido because it doesn't look anything like what they typically do. That's the issue I referred to in another thread... that we are getting to the point at which people don't even know what high level Aikido actually is.

The idea that "aiki" stops when an attacker is able to grab you strongly... well, if that's what this young man's teacher told him, there's a problem. Perhaps he simply misunderstood, I don;t know.

But I do know a good many advanced Aikido practitioners who have fabulous movement but have very little ability once you actually physically connect. As long as they can evade they do quite well, but that's the limit of their understanding of "aiki". They have almost no ability to execute static technique with anyone who has a strong structure. To the extent that they do static technique, it is mostly collusive with ukes breaking their postures unnecessarily.

Some simply try to get strong enough that no one can stop them. But have those folks try the multiple grabber exercises and they are hosed. If one is using muscle power to do technique, each additional person grabbing makes things exponentially more difficult. Whereas, if one is using "aiki" principles properly it is no more difficult to move four than one because it's all simply one connection. In "aiki" we are giving direction to the energy of the connection. You are not moving four people, they are moving four people. You are just giving their energy direction. You can do this fairly gently, as someone like Endo Sensei would typically do or you can do it with a lot of power as the Internal Power folks would do. The effort would be the same regardless.

Anyway, it would be correct to say that that "aiki" is true non-resistant movement. That movement can be large but it can be so small that no outer movement is even visible. It's all about "irimi" but has little to do with what most folks associate with the term.

RED
12-17-2010, 07:39 AM
Sometimes people confuse leading uke with evading uke.
I feel lucky to have trained under varied Aikidoka. From the subtle movements to the exaggerated movements; you begin to see why each individual person started doing their Aikido the way they do.

MM
12-17-2010, 08:01 AM
Sometimes people confuse leading uke with evading uke.


IMO:

This is the area of confusion between Ueshiba's aikido and Modern Aikido.

Modern Aikido relies upon a physical version of "leading uke". It uses physical "whole body" movement (whether very small or overly large), a "relaxed" body, and timing.

Ueshiba's aikido relies upon a very internally built body that utilizes internal pathways to appropriately change the energy of the attacker. This includes using an integrated, relaxed whole body structure that is resistant to throws and pushes. This aiki body involves the use of internal spirals and power, which help create the two effects of soft/ghosty and hard/powerful.

Not to say that either is wrong. There are quite a lot of people out there who have utilized Modern Aikido very effectively or have spiritualized their Modern Aikido to make their lives better. It is only to say that Modern Aikido is not Ueshiba's aikido. They function completely differently.

When talking about "aiki", I really do think people are going to have to start defining whether they mean Modern Aikido's aiki (which, IMO, is as varied as can be) or Ueshiba's aiki (which is very defined).

Mark

Anjisan
12-17-2010, 10:19 AM
IMO:

This is the area of confusion between Ueshiba's aikido and Modern Aikido.

Modern Aikido relies upon a physical version of "leading uke". It uses physical "whole body" movement (whether very small or overly large), a "relaxed" body, and timing.

Ueshiba's aikido relies upon a very internally built body that utilizes internal pathways to appropriately change the energy of the attacker. This includes using an integrated, relaxed whole body structure that is resistant to throws and pushes. This aiki body involves the use of internal spirals and power, which help create the two effects of soft/ghosty and hard/powerful.

Not to say that either is wrong. There are quite a lot of people out there who have utilized Modern Aikido very effectively or have spiritualized their Modern Aikido to make their lives better. It is only to say that Modern Aikido is not Ueshiba's aikido. They function completely differently.

When talking about "aiki", I really do think people are going to have to start defining whether they mean Modern Aikido's aiki (which, IMO, is as varied as can be) or Ueshiba's aiki (which is very defined).

Mark

Do you believe that one can practice a combination of both? Is there a disadvantage or would that be an advantage? Which Shihan do you believe are currently teaching Osensei's version? It seems to me that for one, Ikeda sensei has been focusing on discombobulating the internal structure of Uke.

MM
12-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Do you believe that one can practice a combination of both?

Currently, I do not. But, I also have placed some hope in people like Bill Gleason (and a few others who want to remain anonymous). I have an enormous respect for these people and if anyone can find a way, these are the people. I fully support what they're doing. Don't look to me for the future in regards to this question ... get out to these people's seminars and find the answer for yourself. :)


Which Shihan do you believe are currently teaching Osensei's version?


I actually have no idea. I really wanted to get down to DC for the Endo seminar because I hear such good things about him. Unfortunately I missed it.

There are other people way more qualified to answer that question. In fact, I think there are a lot more people who have already answered that question with their own experiences.

I look back to history and see that a lot of high ranking martial artists from various arts met Ueshiba and walked away knowing that they'd encountered something entirely different than anything they'd experienced before. Not just that Ueshiba was good but what he was doing was very, very different. That even applies to Tomiki and Shioda.

So, in all seriousness, Who in Modern Aikido can we say this about?


It seems to me that for one, Ikeda sensei has been focusing on discombobulating the internal structure of Uke.

I have a lot of respect for Ikeda. But, as George noted above, "An example would be what Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei is doing. I heard of one senior Federation teacher who didn't think what Ikeda Sensei is doing is even Aikido because it doesn't look anything like what they typically do. That's the issue I referred to in another thread... that we are getting to the point at which people don't even know what high level Aikido actually is."

Tony Wagstaffe
12-17-2010, 11:21 AM
Do you believe that one can practice a combination of both? Is there a disadvantage or would that be an advantage? Which Shihan do you believe are currently teaching Osensei's version? It seems to me that for one, Ikeda sensei has been focusing on discombobulating the internal structure of Uke.

Tetsuro Nariyama would be a good start.....:D I'd say it was close....
at the age he's at now would compare almost identical to Ueshiba sensei at the same age concerning power and precision.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWQmgSol8EI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbIyAF48zFM&feature=related

George S. Ledyard
12-17-2010, 11:33 AM
IMO:

This is the area of confusion between Ueshiba's aikido and Modern Aikido.

Modern Aikido relies upon a physical version of "leading uke". It uses physical "whole body" movement (whether very small or overly large), a "relaxed" body, and timing.

Ueshiba's aikido relies upon a very internally built body that utilizes internal pathways to appropriately change the energy of the attacker. This includes using an integrated, relaxed whole body structure that is resistant to throws and pushes. This aiki body involves the use of internal spirals and power, which help create the two effects of soft/ghosty and hard/powerful.

Not to say that either is wrong. There are quite a lot of people out there who have utilized Modern Aikido very effectively or have spiritualized their Modern Aikido to make their lives better. It is only to say that Modern Aikido is not Ueshiba's aikido. They function completely differently.

When talking about "aiki", I really do think people are going to have to start defining whether they mean Modern Aikido's aiki (which, IMO, is as varied as can be) or Ueshiba's aiki (which is very defined).

Mark

Mark,

Ok Mark,
This sounds like Dan talking again and I am in fundamental disagreement with you guys on this subject. Not about O-Sensei's use and understanding of internal power, that's virtually indisputable I think. But that he wasn't the source of much that came later, I disagree with entirely.

If you look at the Asahi Dojo footage, the earliest known video of the Founder you can see him "leading" the uke's, to the point at which he seems to be quite ahead of them and you have to say they are colluding a bit by chasing his arm, etc.

Virtually all later footage shows the same thing, the best example being the famous rooftop dojo footage, which I would say represents the Founder at his post war peak. It is quite clear in that footage that the ukes were expected to follow him and connect. Everything one would see in most post war Aikido was right there.

As for the "spiritualization" issue... It simply was not the case that the folks who came later "spiritualized" the Founder's Aikido. It was exactly the opposite. Kisshomary, Osawa, Arikawa, and the other post war seniors got together and had to take out much of O-Sensei's spiritual / philosophical content to attempt to make what he was doing a) palatable for the military occupation authorities, b) comprehensible to a generation of Japanese that would not be classically educated and saw themselves as "modern", creating a modernized Japan.

There is no question, in my mind, that, as Peter Goldsbury has pointed out, this process continued get distorted as Aikido works appeared in English. This was due largely to John Stevens, whose Aikido teacher was actually one of the earliest of the Founder's students and one of the few that stayed with the Aikikai after the war (Shirata Sensei), trying to re-inject some of what was lost after the war in terms of the Founder's spiritual content. Because he was working from materials that often had already been heavily edited, during that initial post war period by the senior folks at the Aikikai, his attempts were sometimes a bit off base. Couple that with the fact that English often didn't have terms that were equivalent or did not have the range of meaning that the Japanese had, the American interpretation was often simplistic and distorted.

But I actually do not think that what folks here understood of the Founder's spirituality was so much wrong as simplistic to the point at which it led to a misunderstanding of how those spiritual values related to the physical art. But no matter how you cut the cake, Omotokyo is one of the two pillars of Aikido along with Daito Ryu. The internal power folks very often over emphasize the Daito Ryu element which is the part that they understand while ignoring the Omotokyo part, which they typically understand no better than the rest of us and in some cases less well.

I continue to stand by my position that the Founder created Aikido to be a form of personal practice geared towards personal and even societal transformation and he had little or no interest in fighting. It is just as much a distortion to deny this as it is to go off into la la land with his teachings.

MM
12-17-2010, 12:40 PM
Mark,

Ok Mark,
This sounds like Dan talking again and I am in fundamental disagreement with you guys on this subject.


George,
As a preface, I have respect for you and what you've done. But, just to put things straight. When it comes to aikido, Dan doesn't talk through me. Ever. I fully stand behind everything I write. Now, we can disagree on things and I'm fine with that.


Not about O-Sensei's use and understanding of internal power, that's virtually indisputable I think. But that he wasn't the source of much that came later, I disagree with entirely.


You keep quoting just "internal power" (IP). There is a whole lot more to it than that. And just coming back to internal power sort of glosses over and hides the other important factors like spiraling. Yeah, IP is sort of hard to miss when it hits you in the face (not literally) and yeah, some students mentioned Ueshiba's grip, but that wasn't all that Ueshiba was doing. There was a reason some students said he was soft yet felt like a mountain and it wasn't all IP.


If you look at the Asahi Dojo footage, the earliest known video of the Founder you can see him "leading" the uke's, to the point at which he seems to be quite ahead of them and you have to say they are colluding a bit by chasing his arm, etc.

Virtually all later footage shows the same thing, the best example being the famous rooftop dojo footage, which I would say represents the Founder at his post war peak. It is quite clear in that footage that the ukes were expected to follow him and connect. Everything one would see in most post war Aikido was right there.


Yep, that's exactly right ... "Everything one would *see* in most post war Aikido was right there." Emphasis is mine. Those students copied the look. How many actually could *do* what Ueshiba did? It became the training model to mimic the movements, to concentrate on the techniques. Why? Because none of them could *do* what Ueshiba did. (As I said in another thread, I don't blame them. Ueshiba never taught aiki.)

Let me add a nice excerpt from Robert Frager from Yoga Journal March 1982.


I saw Osensei only occasionally the first year. At intervals he would come out to the mat during class to give a short talk and demonstration. We would all sit formally while he tossed around his training partners effortlessly, as if they were rag dolls.

I loved to be in Osensei's presence, although the younger Japanese would often get impatient. They hated to stop throwing each other around to listen to a philosophy lecture.

Finally, the master took pity on me. We were sitting facing each other, and he brought my hands together and placed one of his small hands over both my wrists. He told me to push as hard as I could. His hand was feather-light but at the same time solid as a wall. I couldn't move my hands an inch against that feather-light touch.


So, yeah, we *see* the look. We mimic the form. We do the dance. But, we don't have Ueshiba's aiki. Modern Aikido took a foundational and fundamental turn away from Ueshiba's aikido and the only thing it kept was the form.

We can mimic the moves that Ueshiba made, but that does not mean we are doing what Ueshiba did. Until we can replicate what he did, we only *think* that by mimicking the forms, we're doing what he did. Without aiki, exactly *why* are we leading as we see Ueshiba doing? Without aiki, it most certainly isn't the same thing that Ueshiba is doing.

We most certainly aren't "blending" as Ueshiba did. We don't "move" as Ueshiba did. We fail the push tests that Ueshiba did. We don't have the "power" that Ueshiba had. We don't have the mountain within softness feeling that Ueshiba had.

As I said in another thread ... if we are looking to *do* what Ueshiba did, there are a lot of things in Modern Aikido that will need microscopic attention. This "leading" or "blending" is just one.

For the rest of the world, if you're happy with Modern Aikido, just put me on mute or ignore. :) Probably the best thing to do.


As for the "spiritualization" issue...


I rarely talk about the spiritual stuff in regards to Ueshiba. So, I'm not sure where you picked this up from?

George S. Ledyard
12-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Hi Mark,
I think we are simply missing each other here... I don't disagree that what O-Sensei was doing was qualitatively different. I don't disagree that modern Aikido had much of the outer form with little of the inner content. But what I am saying is that much of this outer form is not suited to fighting and clearly had another purpose, whether it was O-Sensei doing it or one of his deshi. I am sorry I brought Dan into it... he can and has spoken for himself. It's just that that there is certain commonality of viewpoint amongst the various IP folks who are not Aikido practitioners themselves that I think represents a "revisionism" that is without merit. Not from the standpoint that the post war folks didn't misunderstand or misinterpret the Founder but that he wasn't primarily interested in Aikido as a spiritual practice or that he somehow wasn't intending Aikido to be a means of transforming the world. It is absolutely clear to me that he was seriously interested in "world peace" despite our association of that term with well, meaning, idealistic, but rather unrealistic folks.


I rarely talk about the spiritual stuff in regards to Ueshiba. So, I'm not sure where you picked this up from?

Well, I was just keying off...
Not to say that either is wrong. There are quite a lot of people out there who have utilized Modern Aikido very effectively or have spiritualized their Modern Aikido to make their lives better. It is only to say that Modern Aikido is not Ueshiba's aikido. They function completely differently.

That seemed to imply that the spiritual aspect was added by modern Aikido practitioners. If that wasn't your intention, then I read it wrong.

MM
12-17-2010, 01:18 PM
Hi Mark,
I think we are simply missing each other here... I don't disagree that what O-Sensei was doing was qualitatively different. I don't disagree that modern Aikido had much of the outer form with little of the inner content. But what I am saying is that much of this outer form is not suited to fighting and clearly had another purpose, whether it was O-Sensei doing it or one of his deshi. I am sorry I brought Dan into it... he can and has spoken for himself. It's just that that there is certain commonality of viewpoint amongst the various IP folks who are not Aikido practitioners themselves that I think represents a "revisionism" that is without merit. Not from the standpoint that the post war folks didn't misunderstand or misinterpret the Founder but that he wasn't primarily interested in Aikido as a spiritual practice or that he somehow wasn't intending Aikido to be a means of transforming the world. It is absolutely clear to me that he was seriously interested in "world peace" despite our association of that term with well, meaning, idealistic, but rather unrealistic folks.


Hi George,
Sure sounds like it. :) I don't disagree with your views posted here about Ueshiba, so it must be as you said, missing each other. It's why I hate the Internet sometimes. So much is lost in conversations.


Well, I was just keying off...


Oh. Sorry for missing that. Couldn't really disagree with you on it, either. :)


That seemed to imply that the spiritual aspect was added by modern Aikido practitioners. If that wasn't your intention, then I read it wrong.

I think some people have added their own brand of spirituality to Aikido, yeah. I came across a group one time that was doing Christian Aikido. Some others use Zen meditation as part of their aikido practice. Some remained as faithful to Ueshiba's Omoto views as they could. But, did they "add" something that wasn't already there? No, I agree with you that Ueshiba had that spiritual aspect to his aikido. I just meant that some groups have used their own views of spirituality to enhance their aikido while others have taken a more martial approach.

Thanks,
Mark

RonRagusa
12-17-2010, 01:27 PM
So, yeah, we *see* the look. We mimic the form. We do the dance. But, we don't have Ueshiba's aiki. Modern Aikido took a foundational and fundamental turn away from Ueshiba's aikido and the only thing it kept was the form.

We can mimic the moves that Ueshiba made, but that does not mean we are doing what Ueshiba did. Until we can replicate what he did, we only *think* that by mimicking the forms, we're doing what he did. Without aiki, exactly *why* are we leading as we see Ueshiba doing? Without aiki, it most certainly isn't the same thing that Ueshiba is doing.

We most certainly aren't "blending" as Ueshiba did. We don't "move" as Ueshiba did. We fail the push tests that Ueshiba did. We don't have the "power" that Ueshiba had. We don't have the mountain within softness feeling that Ueshiba had.

Hi Mark -

The problem I have with the assertions above is that you are taking your limited exposure to the Aikido universe and extrapolating it to Aikido as a whole. I'm not positing that your argument is incorrect only that your sample must be too small to be of statistical significance; unless, of course, you are widely, very widely traveled and have sampled the Aikido of a very large number of practitioners which would give credence to your point of view.

How are you defining "blending" so as to differentiate what Usehiba did from what others do?

Without Usehiba around how are we to gauge whether or not we "move" as he did? If, as you say, much of what he was doing while moving was internal and therefore not subject to visual scrutiny how are we to know whether we're doing it or not?

Usehiba's push tests are the root of Tohei's Ki tests and fairly common in the schools of Aikido that are within Ki Society and the schools that trace their lineage back to Tohei.

Lastly, is it entirely necessary that we replicate Ueshiba's Aikido in our Aikido? My view is that Ueshiba's Aikido was unique to him just as Mark Murry's Aikido is unique to him and mine is to me. The Aikido that each of us gives to the world is a product of our coordinated mind, body and spirit selves, and as individual as our fingerprints.

Best,

Ron

jonreading
12-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Dang... for being a dead thread there is some great stuff here...

I continue to stand by my position that the Founder created Aikido to be a form of personal practice geared towards personal and even societal transformation and he had little or no interest in fighting. It is just as much a distortion to deny this as it is to go off into la la land with his teachings.


This is an important point for me. I think it is clear that O'Sensei made a statement later in life that aikido is not about fighting (a point with which I agree). However, the chronology of O'Sensei's life made his martial experience a factor in his spiritual decisions later in life. I am not sure of the impact his spiritual experience made on his martial decisions earlier in life. It seems his involvement with Omoto-kyo came about after the majority of his martial development. That leaves me with the chicken before the egg argument? There is another thread running right now of a similar topic and I will be interested to see posts there. And also at some point we have to figure out how the significant amount of previous martial experience many of the pre-war students possed impacted their training, as well as some of the post-war students... Again, I am not sure O'Sensei's instruction did not build upon a pre-existing base of information with many of these students. Er, when he instructed and did not go on philosophical rants or demonstration...

Much of the advanced aikido that deals with the "feel" of aikido is different that how it looks and requires an experience education. As a result we can see divergent conclusions from the same source depending on how the conclusion was tested. This is one of the occassions where "feeling" aikido is required, along with the pre-requisite comprehension of the form [of the technique]. In trying to reverse engineer aikido, it seems logical to keep the pieces in the order of original assembly. In this case, I think we see a "train first, spiritualize second" modality. I do not think modern aikido does this and that may be significant in reverse-engineering aikido. I think internal power falls into this "rediscovered" country of physical training that aikido moved away from some years back. I find those IP posts to be interesting as they relate to aikido for this reason.

I can say that trying to feel what Ikeda Sensei does to me with ikkyo is most difficult even if I know the form of ikkyo. I would think it almost impossible to figure out what Sensei is doing if I didn't even know what he was supposed to be doing...

MM
12-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Hi Ron,

Good questions. Let me see if I can address them.

I, too, consider me as a statistically small viewpoint. However, when I expand that to the people I've met and talked to, it gets a bit larger. When I take into account that some of these people have their own amount of exposure in the aikido world, it adds a bit. To that, I add research. And, yeah, I still think it's too small of a statistical standpoint. Which is why I still get out there when I can.

Blending ... Ueshiba could capture center on contact without having to physically move. He was able to take whatever energy was incoming and appropriately match it to what he wanted without having to move. That was his blending. Well, part of it. The spiritual ideology of being one with the Universe, etc was another. Still, I don't know of many that can replicate the latter, let alone the former. Of course, anyone is free to video themselves sitting on a mat, cross legged and let people push on their forehead (without using their hands to touch the arms of the people pushing). Or as Tohei demonstrated, stand on one leg with one arm out and have someone really try to push you over.

Moving ... If any top ranking kendo people of today have come to any aikido teachers and asked to be taught taisabaki from them, I've not heard about it. As you said, statistically I'm holding a small sampling. Or if any highly ranked judo people have gotten together with any aikido teachers and said, yeah, that's an exemplary example of martial-ness, I haven't heard about it. Let alone sent top ranked judo students to study with the aikido teacher. Who, themselves were significantly awed at the aikido teacher's skills. Or any high ranked sumo people who came across any aikido teachers such that they couldn't best them.

So, historically, we know that these things happened with Ueshiba. That the way he moved and the way he handled people was significantly different. These were martial artists who had trained in jujutsu, judo, kenjutsu, kendo, sumo, etc and had trained with all manner of men of similar backgrounds. And upon encountering Ueshiba, they were awed with the difference of the experience.

So, as a statistically small segment of the aikido world, I keep asking for people to show the Modern Aikido teacher who can replicate these things. Who can point to any Modern Aikido teacher and say, hey that person has surpassed Tomiki, Shioda, Mochizuki, Shirata, etc? I've yet to hear anyone say they've surpassed their teacher, let alone Ueshiba. And that doesn't even get into the details of the actual time training that Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, etc had (which wasn't all that long) with their teacher.

Push tests. I've noted two of them above. Can anyone replicate them? (I can't. yet.) How about someone pushing full force on your hips and you not only staying there, but able to lift either foot to show that you are free to move whenever you want?

Lastly ... well, no. If you're following Modern Aikido, I think your view is perfectly fine. I think a lot of people around the world are more than happy with it. But, again IMO, you aren't doing Ueshiba's aikido. Does it matter? Some yes, some no.

Hi Mark -

The problem I have with the assertions above is that you are taking your limited exposure to the Aikido universe and extrapolating it to Aikido as a whole. I'm not positing that your argument is incorrect only that your sample must be too small to be of statistical significance; unless, of course, you are widely, very widely traveled and have sampled the Aikido of a very large number of practitioners which would give credence to your point of view.

How are you defining "blending" so as to differentiate what Usehiba did from what others do?

Without Usehiba around how are we to gauge whether or not we "move" as he did? If, as you say, much of what he was doing while moving was internal and therefore not subject to visual scrutiny how are we to know whether we're doing it or not?

Usehiba's push tests are the root of Tohei's Ki tests and fairly common in the schools of Aikido that are within Ki Society and the schools that trace their lineage back to Tohei.

Lastly, is it entirely necessary that we replicate Ueshiba's Aikido in our Aikido? My view is that Ueshiba's Aikido was unique to him just as Mark Murry's Aikido is unique to him and mine is to me. The Aikido that each of us gives to the world is a product of our coordinated mind, body and spirit selves, and as individual as our fingerprints.

Best,

Ron

ravenest
12-17-2010, 05:46 PM
Alll very interesting guys. ( I'm on a quick learning curve :D ). Due to my isolated regional training and what I have been exposed to I think I know what a 'dive-bunny' is. I'm starting to get a vague comprehension of what a aikibunny is, but whats all this stuff about ribbons (I hope its not what I think it is :eek: )

Hellis
12-17-2010, 05:58 PM
Alll very interesting guys. ( I'm on a quick learning curve :D ). Due to my isolated regional training and what I have been exposed to I think I know what a 'dive-bunny' is. I'm starting to get a vague comprehension of what a aikibunny is, but whats all this stuff about ribbons (I hope its not what I think it is :eek: )

I am not sure what you think ` it ` is ?
Here is the link to what `it` really is :straightf
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Keith Larman
12-17-2010, 06:34 PM
I believe this is the correct link (http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/The-Way-Of-Harmony-With-Ki) Mr. Ellis is referring to.

Hellis
12-17-2010, 06:41 PM
Thanks Keith

Sorry, I did not check the link :-( It came with a price, I had to watch it again to get the link :-(

http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/video/The-Way-Of-Harmony-With-Ki

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Anjisan
12-17-2010, 06:42 PM
Mark,

Ok Mark,
This sounds like Dan talking again and I am in fundamental disagreement with you guys on this subject. Not about O-Sensei's use and understanding of internal power, that's virtually indisputable I think. But that he wasn't the source of much that came later, I disagree with entirely.

If you look at the Asahi Dojo footage, the earliest known video of the Founder you can see him "leading" the uke's, to the point at which he seems to be quite ahead of them and you have to say they are colluding a bit by chasing his arm, etc.

Virtually all later footage shows the same thing, the best example being the famous rooftop dojo footage, which I would say represents the Founder at his post war peak. It is quite clear in that footage that the ukes were expected to follow him and connect. Everything one would see in most post war Aikido was right there.

As for the "spiritualization" issue... It simply was not the case that the folks who came later "spiritualized" the Founder's Aikido. It was exactly the opposite. Kisshomary, Osawa, Arikawa, and the other post war seniors got together and had to take out much of O-Sensei's spiritual / philosophical content to attempt to make what he was doing a) palatable for the military occupation authorities, b) comprehensible to a generation of Japanese that would not be classically educated and saw themselves as "modern", creating a modernized Japan.

There is no question, in my mind, that, as Peter Goldsbury has pointed out, this process continued get distorted as Aikido works appeared in English. This was due largely to John Stevens, whose Aikido teacher was actually one of the earliest of the Founder's students and one of the few that stayed with the Aikikai after the war (Shirata Sensei), trying to re-inject some of what was lost after the war in terms of the Founder's spiritual content. Because he was working from materials that often had already been heavily edited, during that initial post war period by the senior folks at the Aikikai, his attempts were sometimes a bit off base. Couple that with the fact that English often didn't have terms that were equivalent or did not have the range of meaning that the Japanese had, the American interpretation was often simplistic and distorted.

But I actually do not think that what folks here understood of the Founder's spirituality was so much wrong as simplistic to the point at which it led to a misunderstanding of how those spiritual values related to the physical art. But no matter how you cut the cake, Omotokyo is one of the two pillars of Aikido along with Daito Ryu. The internal power folks very often over emphasize the Daito Ryu element which is the part that they understand while ignoring the Omotokyo part, which they typically understand no better than the rest of us and in some cases less well.

I continue to stand by my position that the Founder created Aikido to be a form of personal practice geared towards personal and even societal transformation and he had little or no interest in fighting. It is just as much a distortion to deny this as it is to go off into la la land with his teachings.

To me, I see no reason why there has to be or needs to be a dichotomy between personal development and self-defence. Why can't Aikido be a both---why ala-cart?

It appears that Osensei had fought his personal demons, gone through personal challenges, confronting fears and was martially very skilled and as a result, (along with his Omotokyo beliefs) transcended as a person as he went along. My impression at least, is that when one examines his focus in his earlier years seemed to be more martially focused and moved to a more seemingly spiritual focus later on in his life.

Further, it seem that one cannot just skim the cream off without going through the crucible to some extent at least? In other words, the martial arts seem set up give up the most riches, go the deepest when one faces danger within and artificial (training--self defence) without.

Consequently, can one just cherry pick, and package those elements like material on the lecture circuit and take a short-cut to where Osensei ended up or even an approximation of it , assuming that that is the goal espoused--at least by many? I realize that our journey would only be a pale imitation, but still a sincere effort. Osensei was a warrior who naturally emphasized-it seems- a greater focus on philosophical/ spiritual matters-- perhaps because that is a natural evolution, but one can't take a short cut to get there. Perhaps it is a matter of degree--where without that type of journey one can still a better person, but maybe just not as improved as if they had pushed themselves a little further. So why would self-defence be an option to be watered down or removed entirely? Student retention?? Does it scare people off?

Do all of the personal development benefits evaporate if self-defence (dare I say even realistic) are practiced? It just seems that it much easier to discover and polish the personal development aspects if one has a better chance of remaining upright and breathing--unless one is a gambling type and hope for the best and pray that the worst doesn't happen. Other martial arts don't seem to have this issue.

Walter Martindale
12-17-2010, 06:51 PM
And, for people who can REALLY harmonize with a ribbon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5XsybhNOPs

I must be missing something - a rokudan? Ribbons?
Wakaranai...
W

Hellis
12-17-2010, 07:05 PM
Walter

I prefer your version of the ribbon dance.
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Randall Lim
12-19-2010, 06:51 AM
really? gosh! i got to tell Ikeda sensei that he has no aiki, since he got two big guys locked on him in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1fi3laBQRM&feature=related and not lead & lure them first. the news would break his heart. oh the poor man! practicing aikido all these years and nothing to show for! ;)

It appears to me that Ikeda Shihan was not demonstrating Aiki, but rather, the power of Ki extension from one's centre.

Besides Aiki, Ki extension is also another important aspect of Aikido.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 09:22 AM
It appears to me that Ikeda Shihan was not demonstrating Aiki, but rather, the power of Ki extension from one's centre.

Besides Aiki, Ki extension is also another important aspect of Aikido.

All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

RonRagusa
12-19-2010, 09:38 AM
All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

As you continue to age and your body mechanics model becomes less reliable your training will lead you to another way and you may view ki in another light. ;)

Then again, perhaps you will miss seeing or reject the gift and ki will remain a misleading delusion to you. :sorry:

Time will tell.

Best,

Ron

chillzATL
12-19-2010, 09:44 AM
All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

You should go start a new thread and explain, as body mechanics, what people are really talking about when they discuss or describe ki. Give some examples, extending ki, sinking ki, etc and then explain what's really happening, or supposed to be happening, for everyone. Heck, explain aiki while you're at it too.

MM
12-19-2010, 10:16 AM
All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

I'm no fan of ki bunnies either. Nor am I a fan of things like the ribbon waving ki work. If people want to do that, more power to them. If it makes them happy, who am I to say otherwise?

But, in relation to Ueshiba -- er, no. The ki waving ribbons aren't what he was doing. Then again, just thinking it was "body mechanics", IMO, isn't right either.

To put it this way, look back to when Kano was putting together his Judo. All those men had been doing jujutsu of one sort or another. They knew body mechanics from standing to grappling. They knew timing, weight distribution and how to take advantage of it, and angles. Mochizuki, Tomiki, etc all were higher ranked dan grades and could hold their own, for the most part. Kano, himself, had seen a lot of people who were highly qualified martial artists.

So, through years and years of training, these people knew body mechanics in and out. They knew jujutsu. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they're doing. He tosses them like rag dolls. They can't throw him. Kano sees in Ueshiba what he has only seen very rarely and acknowledges it.

Now, jump over to kendo. Some very highly ranked people who have studied for a long time. They know how to move. They know timing. They know body mechanics. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they have seen and trained. He's doing something completely new to them. They want to learn his "taisbaki".

Sumo. Check. Tenryu and Hisa. See above paragraph. These people knew body mechanics. Ueshiba wasn't just doing body mechanics.

Karate. Check. See above.

After so many, one should stop and take stock of things. Open the box and say, well, perhaps it wasn't just body mechanics. It certainly couldn't have been this "magical ki" stuff either because no one in that area can use it martially. We have hundreds of people who knew jujutsu, body mechanics, timing, angles, didn't care for "ki", but were not only awed by Ueshiba but they couldn't defeat him. He wasn't doing what they were familiar with.

So now, cut to the present. After 40 + years of people doing body mechanics to the nth degree, people doing "magical ki" work to the nth degree, people mixing those two, people studying other martial arts to add, etc, no one is still any nearer to the skill levels of the greats. Where does that leave us?

IMO:
1. Techniques and warm ups are missing a core component to them that Ueshiba did.
2. Body Mechanics, timing, angles, etc are necessary but there is still a missing component to reach Ueshiba's level.
3. The greats (Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, etc) all did very similar things, all talked about the secret of aiki, and all of them kept it very hidden. There is a training methodology for that "aiki" and it wasn't passed down through most aikido schools.

Anyone still think that if they work on techniques, body mechanics, timing, etc for another 40+ years, they'll eventually get as good as Ueshiba? Or how about taking those greats at their word and there really was a "secret of aiki" and a specific training methodology? One that Ueshiba never truly passed along...

Hellis
12-19-2010, 12:06 PM
All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

Tony

In the 1950s I recall Kenshiro Abbe Sensei mention ``Ki`` just once when making a technique. I asked him what he meant by `Ki` , he replied " Not necessary speak of Ki, I teach it in my technique ".
He taught correct breathing whilst making a technique.
We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Tony

In the 1950s I recall Kenshiro Abbe Sensei mention ``Ki`` just once when making a technique. I asked him what he meant by `Ki` , he replied " Not necessary speak of Ki, I teach it in my technique ".
He taught correct breathing whilst making a technique.
We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Henry,

The first time I came across the word "ki" was when I met people that purported to practice "traditional" "ki" aikido.... This was 5 or so years later into T/S aikido.... around 1980 when I had Shodan level.....
When practising with them I was easily able to throw them, but for some strange reason they were unable to throw me?
I was not resisting, just making good posture and moving with there movement.... I was told something similar to your experience which was you are being awkward and not going with anything...... I can't practice with you..... to me that was a cop out and excuse to their inability.....

So when people say things to me and cannot do what it is they are supposed to, it seems to me it is all in their minds and not in there bodies!!
I believe that people with high ability have discovered subtle use of those same mechanics which everyone possesses and have honed their skills to a level which can't be seen by those who have never practised beyond their "social club" level and "skill".....
I can see it, have practised it, its how we practice!! It has nothing to do with spirits, spooks, invisible magic power or otherwise.....
I practice as Tomiki Sensei taught, Hideo Oba Sensei taught, Mike Tracey 5th Dan, Brian Eustace 7th Dan, and Itsuo Haba 6th Dan and a few others I have met on the way...... taught.....That is rationally!!
The use of tegatana, correct and precise kata coupled with good centralised posture, also working against a resisting partners and players in equal measure........
I have used my skills with people who are much bigger, and physically stronger than myself, who have never practised aikido in their lives!! (self defence classes I have held in the past with no convenient uke!!)
I am easily able to produce results that are effective. (I add that I am responsible and I do not hurt people)
I achieve these results, without effort, without any mystical power, hocus pocus or otherwise.....
If people want to believe it is somehow there from somewhere else.... Well who am I to argue!! Keep on dreaming and enjoy their comfortable bubbles.... which may or may not pop one day.... then look out as it won't be nice!!!!!
I know it's all mumbo jumbo and nothing else!!!!
:straightf
I apologise if that insults their sensitive sensibilities, but to be quite honestly I don't give a hoot as I am quite secure in my own knowledge, Ta very much.....
What's your feelings on this? Ha ha!! Need I ask!! As I know what you Derek, and your students are capable of......:) ;) and it aint no mystical clap trap.....

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 03:24 PM
I'm no fan of ki bunnies either. Nor am I a fan of things like the ribbon waving ki work. If people want to do that, more power to them. If it makes them happy, who am I to say otherwise?

But, in relation to Ueshiba -- er, no. The ki waving ribbons aren't what he was doing. Then again, just thinking it was "body mechanics", IMO, isn't right either.

To put it this way, look back to when Kano was putting together his Judo. All those men had been doing jujutsu of one sort or another. They knew body mechanics from standing to grappling. They knew timing, weight distribution and how to take advantage of it, and angles. Mochizuki, Tomiki, etc all were higher ranked dan grades and could hold their own, for the most part. Kano, himself, had seen a lot of people who were highly qualified martial artists.

So, through years and years of training, these people knew body mechanics in and out. They knew jujutsu. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they're doing. He tosses them like rag dolls. They can't throw him. Kano sees in Ueshiba what he has only seen very rarely and acknowledges it.

Now, jump over to kendo. Some very highly ranked people who have studied for a long time. They know how to move. They know timing. They know body mechanics. What happens when they meet Ueshiba? He isn't doing what they have seen and trained. He's doing something completely new to them. They want to learn his "taisbaki".

Sumo. Check. Tenryu and Hisa. See above paragraph. These people knew body mechanics. Ueshiba wasn't just doing body mechanics.

Karate. Check. See above.

After so many, one should stop and take stock of things. Open the box and say, well, perhaps it wasn't just body mechanics. It certainly couldn't have been this "magical ki" stuff either because no one in that area can use it martially. We have hundreds of people who knew jujutsu, body mechanics, timing, angles, didn't care for "ki", but were not only awed by Ueshiba but they couldn't defeat him. He wasn't doing what they were familiar with.

So now, cut to the present. After 40 + years of people doing body mechanics to the nth degree, people doing "magical ki" work to the nth degree, people mixing those two, people studying other martial arts to add, etc, no one is still any nearer to the skill levels of the greats. Where does that leave us?

IMO:
1. Techniques and warm ups are missing a core component to them that Ueshiba did.
2. Body Mechanics, timing, angles, etc are necessary but there is still a missing component to reach Ueshiba's level.
3. The greats (Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, etc) all did very similar things, all talked about the secret of aiki, and all of them kept it very hidden. There is a training methodology for that "aiki" and it wasn't passed down through most aikido schools.

Anyone still think that if they work on techniques, body mechanics, timing, etc for another 40+ years, they'll eventually get as good as Ueshiba? Or how about taking those greats at their word and there really was a "secret of aiki" and a specific training methodology? One that Ueshiba never truly passed along...

Then we are all wasting our time if that is what people think... Tomiki Sensei spoke of the subtle use of isometrics when talking about Proff Ueshiba's abilities when he did all the "tricks" that people couldn't understand. Maybe he was one in a million and no one will be able to achieve his level. I'll let you know in another 30 years or so.....:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 03:28 PM
You should go start a new thread and explain, as body mechanics, what people are really talking about when they discuss or describe ki. Give some examples, extending ki, sinking ki, etc and then explain what's really happening, or supposed to be happening, for everyone. Heck, explain aiki while you're at it too.

Forget the word "ki" for a start and practice against some one who resists with all there guile......:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 03:30 PM
As you continue to age and your body mechanics model becomes less reliable your training will lead you to another way and you may view ki in another light. ;)

Then again, perhaps you will miss seeing or reject the gift and ki will remain a misleading delusion to you. :sorry:

Time will tell.

Best,

Ron

Well lead me on sensei....:rolleyes:

Hellis
12-19-2010, 03:30 PM
Tony

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Exactly :D :rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 04:35 PM
Tony

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Trouble is Henry they do!!!!! But the gullible are gullible

Shades of Uri Geller......?

Hellis
12-19-2010, 04:49 PM
Trouble is Henry they do!!!!! But the gullible are gullible

Shades of Uri Geller......?

Tony

I think perhaps that is what Rik Ellis had in mind when he wrote the article " Aikido in MMA " on the Aikido Articles Blog.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

CNYMike
12-19-2010, 04:55 PM
All this talk of '''''ki"" and so forth is so misleading and to me delusional .... Why don't people just say body mechanics used in such a way to effect the balance of a person when holding you..... then everybody can understand...:hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no mystical "ki" just plain and simple body mechanic techniques and movement .... :cool: :rolleyes:

Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

CNYMike
12-19-2010, 05:13 PM
Trouble is Henry they do [make a fortune]!!!!! But the gullible are gullible

Shades of Uri Geller......?

The last couple of years, I've gained some insight into the finacial side of the martial arts. Basically, if you want to get rich quick, do something else.

If you have a storefront school, the only way to even hope of breaking even -- forget about turning a profit, you just want enough to pay the rent! -- the only hope is to have a kids' class, the bigger, the better; and a pro shop, selling equipment and uniforms. And even then, you charge what the market will bear. Some places you can charge $1000 for a black belt test. Other places, no way. If you're hosting a tournament or a seminar, you'd better hope enough people come in from out of town and pay the seminar fee. to even hope of getting back whatever it cost to put that thing together! If you don't have a stoerfront, fewer costs but probably fewer revenues. And if you're talking about at most a half a dozen people rocking and rolling in someone's basement, then anything you make is probably gas money and little else.

Now if the "they" making a fortune are the Aikikai foundation, then I have no idea if they're turnig a profit; ditto for the other organizations out there. But they face the same economic realities I mentioned above. If you have a lot of revenues, you only make a "fortune" if you don't have a lot of costs! And they have their work cut out for them. And if you're bouncing all over the place teaching seminars, the jet lag seems to counter the "riches" coming in.

This is not to say there aren't huksters in the MA world; of course there are. But for those who are sincere about what they're doing, they'd better be motivated by the love of the arts rather than getting rich off it because in most cases you probably won't.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 05:43 PM
The last couple of years, I've gained some insight into the finacial side of the martial arts. Basically, if you want to get rich quick, do something else.

If you have a storefront school, the only way to even hope of breaking even -- forget about turning a profit, you just want enough to pay the rent! -- the only hope is to have a kids' class, the bigger, the better; and a pro shop, selling equipment and uniforms. And even then, you charge what the market will bear. Some places you can charge $1000 for a black belt test. Other places, no way. If you're hosting a tournament or a seminar, you'd better hope enough people come in from out of town and pay the seminar fee. to even hope of getting back whatever it cost to put that thing together! If you don't have a stoerfront, fewer costs but probably fewer revenues. And if you're talking about at most a half a dozen people rocking and rolling in someone's basement, then anything you make is probably gas money and little else.

Now if the "they" making a fortune are the Aikikai foundation, then I have no idea if they're turnig a profit; ditto for the other organizations out there. But they face the same economic realities I mentioned above. If you have a lot of revenues, you only make a "fortune" if you don't have a lot of costs! And they have their work cut out for them. And if you're bouncing all over the place teaching seminars, the jet lag seems to counter the "riches" coming in.

This is not to say there aren't huksters in the MA world; of course there are. But for those who are sincere about what they're doing, they'd better be motivated by the love of the arts rather than getting rich off it because in most cases you probably won't.

I'm well aware of that.... believe me....;)

I'm talking about people who are gullible no matter what you tell them and there are quite a number on this site.... it's evident to me :rolleyes:
But maybe I'm too cutting and honest about how I see and rationalise things.......
Nobody possesses mystical powers.... knowledge, maybe but magic absolutely not..... It does not exist......:hypno: period

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

Forget the word "ki" It's what opens the door and starts your car in the morning when it makes contacts inside the cylinder, now there's a thing...... electricity, but I won't go into that here, other than say ya can't see it but sure as hell feel it if ya don't respect it.... the same electric feeling you get in your arm when someone wacks on a nikkyo......:rolleyes: :straightf

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 05:52 PM
Tony

I think perhaps that is what Rik Ellis had in mind when he wrote the article " Aikido in MMA " on the Aikido Articles Blog.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Henry

Having had many an experience in the real sense Rik describes very accurately, I would support his view 110%

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 06:05 PM
Regarless of whether ki actually exists, maybe thinking in terms of ki/extenstion/etc. is the only way to get those body mechanics expressed. In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

I've personally found that when you repeat something 1000's of times over it's never the same each time, but the doing does kinda get better over time.... nothing mysterious about that..... :cool: ;)
It's called adaptability and making use of any given situation....
I practise it every day of my life.....
I assume you do? ;)

RonRagusa
12-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Well lead me on sensei....:rolleyes:

Not my responsibility or desire... You are right, however, about the nature of ki; there's nothing mysterious about it. Simply what you have when mind and body are unified and working in concert.

Best,

Ron

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Not my responsibility or desire... You are right, however, about the nature of ki; there's nothing mysterious about it. Simply what you have when mind and body are unified and working in concert.

Best,

Ron

Aha!! Some common sense coming forth at last. Now we are talking!!

I call that coordination.....:rolleyes:

Randall Lim
12-19-2010, 07:21 PM
Tony

We had a senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido visit our dojo some years ago, he asked if he could demonstrate his Ki, non of his techniques worked, sadly for him he didn't bring a ``trained `` ukie with him.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Did that senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido lure & lead Uke's attack before physical contact is made?? Or was Uke's attack static??

I believe luring & leading put effortless Aiki into the equation, while static attacks put merely Nage's Ki extension into the equation.

In my opinion, based in my understanding of Aiki & Ki extension, we need both for our Aikido to work.

Just my 2-cents worth..

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Did that senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido lure & lead Uke's attack before physical contact is made?? Or was Uke's attack static??

I believe luring & leading put effortless Aiki into the equation, while static attacks put merely Nage's Ki extension into the equation.

In my opinion, based in my understanding of Aiki & Ki extension, we need both for our Aikido to work.

Just my 2-cents worth..

It's 2 cents worth.....:rolleyes:

Go up against someone who doesn't give a dam about whether you lead or lure.... or even do ukemi. Your technique (if you have any) will not be pretty as you imagine to be when and if it ever happens to you..... believe it.....:hypno: ;)

Randall Lim
12-19-2010, 07:46 PM
Tony

I honestly don't remember the word ``Ki`` being used more than two or three times from when I started Aikido in 1957 until the mid 1970s. Its does seem odd when I remember Kenshiro Abbe say `` we will only speak of Ki when you are dan grade `` now Ki students are invited from ``day one `` to step on the mat and learn to breath through their toes and the promise of multi coloured ribbons...

TK Chiba Sensei arrived in the UK in 1966, I joined him in 1967, I was his assistant for several years, I have no memory of ever discussing Ki on or off the mat.

Why arn't these people who do these fantastic things with Ki on the TV ??? If what they do was real ?, they would make a fortune..........

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

RE: The Emphasis on Ki

These are the main differences in training approaches between the various Aikido schools/ryus/styles.

Some emphasise a wide variety of techniques in Kyu grades & only introduce Ki extensions in the Dan grades,
while others emphasise Ki extensions (on a handful of basic techniques) in Kyu grades & only begin exploring the wider range of techniques in the Dan grades.

There are pros & cons for each approach. My Ryu, Tendoryu, adopts the latter approach. For Kyu grades, to develop our Ki extension from our centre, we practise on 4 basic techniques: Ikkyo, Shiho Nage, Kotegaeshi & Irimi Nage continuously.
Only from Shodan that we begin exploring the other less-known techniques.

RE: Ki a mysticalmagical thing??

I believe there is Ki in everyone of us. We just have to learn to develop, control & project it.

gdandscompserv
12-19-2010, 08:57 PM
There is a training methodology for that "aiki" and it wasn't passed down through most aikido schools.
agreed!

stan baker
12-19-2010, 10:53 PM
so who is teaching the methodology

stan

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.

dps
12-20-2010, 02:47 AM
In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!

You are so right.

Another way of explaining it is visualization, mental imagery or guided imagery. Where you use your imagination to get your body to do some thing that is too complex for the conscious mind to understand.
Once the effect is obtained you have to forget the imagery and use the feel of the effect.


dps

Hellis
12-20-2010, 03:17 AM
Did that senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido lure & lead Uke's attack before physical contact is made?? Or was Uke's attack static??

I believe luring & leading put effortless Aiki into the equation, while static attacks put merely Nage's Ki extension into the equation.

In my opinion, based in my understanding of Aiki & Ki extension, we need both for our Aikido to work.

Just my 2-cents worth..

We treat all our visitors with respect and understanding. As we did in the case of the visiting `Ki ` teacher, we worked with him until we were expected to fall down, we don't do ``ring a ring a roses `` in my dojo.
We were not trying to embarrass him in any way, he sucessfully achieved that all by himself..

The adjusting the weight of the body had me impressed, and puzzled when I first saw this many years ago.. Once you know what to do, it is so simple and not at all magical.

I find it strange how many aikidoka appear to believe that Ki is exclusive to Aikido, it is applicable to many sports and daily life.
There was the true story of the lady who lifted the back of a car off the ground to release her trapped child, desperation with the coordination of mind and body.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 03:22 AM
RE: The Emphasis on Ki

These are the main differences in training approaches between the various Aikido schools/ryus/styles.

Some emphasise a wide variety of techniques in Kyu grades & only introduce Ki extensions in the Dan grades,
while others emphasise Ki extensions (on a handful of basic techniques) in Kyu grades & only begin exploring the wider range of techniques in the Dan grades.

There are pros & cons for each approach. My Ryu, Tendoryu, adopts the latter approach. For Kyu grades, to develop our Ki extension from our centre, we practise on 4 basic techniques: Ikkyo, Shiho Nage, Kotegaeshi & Irimi Nage continuously.
Only from Shodan that we begin exploring the other less-known techniques.

RE: Ki a mysticalmagical thing??

I believe there is Ki in everyone of us. We just have to learn to develop, control & project it.

I believe we have electricity in us manifested by chemicals, from the fuel we eat and drink, which coordinate via brain neurons and connections and the cortex to the muscles which have memory, given enough practice......:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 03:28 AM
We treat all our visitors with respect and understanding. As we did in the case of the visiting `Ki ` teacher, we worked with him until we were expected to fall down, we don't do ``ring a ring a roses `` in my dojo.
We were not trying to embarrass him in any way, he sucessfully achieved that all by himself..

The adjusting the weight of the body had me impressed, and puzzled when I first saw this many years ago.. Once you know what to do, it is so simple and not at all magical.

I find it strange how many aikidoka appear to believe that Ki is exclusive to Aikido, it is applicable to many sports and daily life.
There was the true story of the lady who lifted the back of a car off the ground to release her trapped child, desperation with the coordination of mind and body.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Thanks Henry...... couldn't have put it better, I just hate the misconception of this so bandied about word....:) ;)

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 03:44 AM
Looks very much to me like a bit of randori kyogi that we do in T/S aikido ..... not so pretty now is it......
Sportsman like yeah, but hardly pretty......

Repeat.................... it is not pretty aikido :rolleyes:
More like aikijudo if you ask me.......
But I'm no expert now so I rest my case.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg&feature=related

Hellis
12-20-2010, 04:12 AM
Tony

No, it was not pretty at all...Tohei did OK as he simply ```adapted ``
to the situation in hand...That is the one point that my son Rik attempts to get across in his article " Aikido in MMA " , the need to ```adapt ``` there was no classic Aikido posture from Tohei ...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 04:22 AM
Just for added measure......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY&NR=1

No aiki here is there????......;)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 04:26 AM
Tony

No, it was not pretty at all...Tohei did OK as he simply ```adapted ``
to the situation in hand...That is the one point that my son Rik attempts to get across in his article " Aikido in MMA " , the need to ```adapt ``` there was no classic Aikido posture from Tohei ...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

That's where the aikibunnies are in denial Henry, the proof is there for all to see but they can't see it!!!!!!:D ;)

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 04:31 AM
Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.

Love to see them......:)

Hellis
12-20-2010, 04:51 AM
Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.

If you are replying to me ? ....I have related one story from my 55 years of Aikido study, believe me there are many more.....

Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Mark Freeman
12-20-2010, 06:48 AM
Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here

Of course there is no magic here. Unraiseable body can be taught to just about anybody. I taught it to my 5 year old daughter shortly after I learnt it myself. It is simply a matter of mind/body co-ordination, relaxation and a correct frame of mind.

I agree with the point that correct body mechanics are central to what makes aikido work, by that I mean, posture, connection to the ground through the centre and a relaxed musculature. However, the importance of the mind cannot be left out of the equation.

I think this is where there the grey area of what 'ki' is, can and can't do. There are those who pooh pooh the whole idea of 'ki' and those who seem to attribute it to everything that is. I don't know what the truth of the whole matter is. For me it provides something for my mind to work with, so if I am instructed to 'extend ki' I take it as an instruction to extend my mind beyond my body. It works for me, so I will keep doing that until something better comes along.

My teacher once asked the class if anyone could explain what 'ki' is and someone put their hand up, so he was invited to share his thoughts with the class. When he had finished, my teacher said "I'm glad you know, because I have no idea what it is...(and he added with a smile and a wink) but I know how to use it!"

Ki cannot be disproven and at the moment we have no way of proving it either, so the discussions will continue...

As for the visiting 'ki' aikido person who couldn't deliver the goods, maybe he was just not very good. I have had visitors who have come from other styles of aikido that are flummoxed by the fact that they can't throw me when they try (they are not used to non resistant following and someone remaining on balance), and the harder they try the worse it gets for them and the potentials for reversals are obvious. In other words, they are not that good either.

Although I am comfortable with the term ki as it provides a frame of reference for my not very bright mind, I have not encountered anything mystical or magical in my aikido practice. Just many things that I have not known how to explain for many years until I could replicate them.

regards,

Mark

chillzATL
12-20-2010, 08:27 AM
Forget the word "ki" for a start and practice against some one who resists with all there guile......:rolleyes:

Been doing that for years now Tony, thanks. I can also paste funny emotes. So we're a lot alike. Now continue and explain ki as body mechanics please.

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 10:01 AM
It does not matter whether or not a person believes in Ki. If you are alive, there is life energy. The next question is whether or not it can be used in a martial setting. I have personally experienced it in both Aikido and in other martial arts.

If you guys in Europe would like to get an opportunity to experience it at a very frightening level, then I would suggest that you set aside the weekend of April 9 &10 in Lyon, France. Kenji Ushiro Sensei will be teaching his first seminar in Europe. He was introduced to the Aikido world at the Aiki Expo. He teaches a style of Bujitsu. A lot of his students have left other "hard" arts in Japan to study under him. Katsumi (Oyama top tournament fighter) is just one example of many. His use of Ki in a fighting context is a real game changer. You have to personally experience it to actually believe it.

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 10:38 AM
Been doing that for years now Tony, thanks. I can also paste funny emotes. So we're a lot alike. Now continue and explain ki as body mechanics please.

I said forget the word "Ki".... And as you are so familiar with it?

Posture or kamae to you, high, medium, low..... done whether you turn, pivot or otherwise, standing up, kneeling, seiza, shikko, whatever Japanese terminology you wish to use which I don't, other than names of waza we use in the basic 17 we use in T/S aikido, whether walking on the knees, whether holding a weapon or not.... Posture is fundamental to all fighting arts, whether Asian, Western or otherwise and is a natural stance which we tidy up a bit with aikido by keeping ones centre of gravity low whichever stance one takes, this is achieved by bending the knees and keeping relaxed..... body weight distributed 2/3 front leg and 1/3 back leg or in the case of mushin mugamae (no posture) ,,,,, shizentai, both legs have the weight evenly distributed again with knees bent and the body relaxed.....
Care for any more?

Now you explain to me what "ki" is......

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 10:53 AM
It does not matter whether or not a person believes in Ki. If you are alive, there is life energy. The next question is whether or not it can be used in a martial setting. I have personally experienced it in both Aikido and in other martial arts.

If you guys in Europe would like to get an opportunity to experience it at a very frightening level, then I would suggest that you set aside the weekend of April 9 &10 in Lyon, France. Kenji Ushiro Sensei will be teaching his first seminar in Europe. He was introduced to the Aikido world at the Aiki Expo. He teaches a style of Bujitsu. A lot of his students have left other "hard" arts in Japan to study under him. Katsumi (Oyama top tournament fighter) is just one example of many. His use of Ki in a fighting context is a real game changer. You have to personally experience it to actually believe it.

Marc Abrams

I don't see any one really "hitting" him in his demo's...... Why is it when really challenged these people don't or won't face up to it? I have "felt" their so called "ki" and there is nothing there!!!! Other than your own belief in thinking it exists, like those who believe in gods, spirits, spooks and all manner of hocus pocus..... If you believe he can stop you with his "ki" then he has already conned you into thinking it and has therefore "defeated" you already..... That is called psyching out your opponent.....
:hypno:

C. David Henderson
12-20-2010, 10:54 AM
You are so right.

Another way of explaining it is visualization, mental imagery or guided imagery. Where you use your imagination to get your body to do some thing that is too complex for the conscious mind to understand.
Once the effect is obtained you have to forget the imagery and use the feel of the effect.

dps

Hi David,

I like that view a lot.

There are researchers studying the neurological effects of meditation whose basic headline is -- "if it fires together, it wires together." (that is, a chemical reaction resulting in electric discharge within the nervous system, for the unpoetic.)

Most high-level sports incorporate visualization techniques for maximizing physical performance. For example, the alpine racer who visualizes skiing the course before the gate opens....

I once read some research on modern olympic weight lifting. Coaches used stop action video to show one lifter there was a catch in his clean-and-jerk lift, and he was able to change his movement to eliminate the problem.

Thing is, the lift was happening at a speed where a person would not be able consciously to change their performance in the act of actually lifting. Nonetheless, the image of doing it correctly provided a visual template upon which the lifter was able to rewrite subtly a complex and interrelated series of movements that all had to occur in a split second.

(Whether coincidentally or not, with this training emphasis the elite in the sport have shifted away (relatively) from sheer strength and towards power and flexibility.)

I try to understand "ki" as a guide in much the same sense for rewiring the way the body performs (with changes, over time, in the body as well as the mind).

Edit: I'm also fine, myself, in thinking of it in terms like pressure and weight, frankly

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 11:01 AM
If you are replying to me ? ....I have related one story from my 55 years of Aikido study, believe me there are many more.....

Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Well ki is not magic, but lowering ones center of gravity should in no way make this stunt possible, as the weight of the master/child remains the same. Therefore I will still argue the fact, that something else is happening.

The fact that she needs to relax, does not suprise as relaxation is what makes energy flow. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
12-20-2010, 11:22 AM
Well ki is not magic, but lowering ones center of gravity should in no way make this stunt possible, as the weight of the master/child remains the same. Therefore I will still argue the fact, that something else is happening.

Yes, something else is happening:

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

Marc Abrams
12-20-2010, 11:26 AM
I don't see any one really "hitting" him in his demo's...... Why is it when really challenged these people don't or won't face up to it? I have "felt" their so called "ki" and there is nothing there!!!! Other than your own belief in thinking it exists, like those who believe in gods, spirits, spooks and all manner of hocus pocus..... If you believe he can stop you with his "ki" then he has already conned you into thinking it and has therefore "defeated" you already..... That is called psyching out your opponent.....
:hypno:

Some of the best people in the world have taken their best shots at him. I have personally witnessed some of it. If you think that someone like Katsumi will not face up to it, then by all means, give it a go yourself. Katsumi is one of the greatest full contact, karate tournament fighters period. Ushiro Sensei is open to anybody stepping up to the plate. A K-1 champ tried it as well, same outcome. That is why so many people have left their teachers and are now studying with him. As a psychologist, I think that I have a very good understanding of hypnotic process, psyched out...... I would venture to say that my understanding of those areas is greater than your own. That being said, I am a genuine skeptic and always step up to the plate to test things out. I have and continue to do so with Ushiro Sensei. That is why I am additionally training with him and taking the significant time and expense to travel to Japan and bring him to the US.

I think that you know by my posts that I am not an aiki-bunny. I can also acknowledge levels and skills sets that go beyond the ordinary. Ushiro Sensei's use of Ki is one such person who can deliver the goods, regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Then again, come to Lyon and test it out yourself. You and I can wash down your experiences with some nice suds (or wine) afterward. First rounds on me...

Most of the stuff that looks fake, is fake. Then again, there are some people out there whose stuff looks fake and simply is not and far beyond where we are.

Marc Abrams

ps- The guy who did the series "mind-body kickass" is from England. Contact him directly and ask him privately about Ushiro Sensei.

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Love to see them......:)

I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 11:28 AM
OOOOOh yes.......;)

which goes to prove that most things can and will be explained by science..... sooner or later!!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2010, 11:33 AM
I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw

You are just as delusional as the people in the video .... see if they can actually do it you before producing such crap!!!!
I had this tried on me and nothing happened .... something about me not being receptive or some such bullshit:crazy: :hypno: :eek: :D

Aikirk
12-20-2010, 11:36 AM
Yes, something else is happening:

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiphysics/unraisable-body

Having only read some it, it seems like what your have found is not how my sensei (non-aikidoka) showed it. There was no stance, just standing relaxed is if you where waiting for a bus and the other person holding you from behind around the stomach trying to lift you from the ground. So there was no structure like pictured in the link.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-20-2010, 11:38 AM
OOOOOh yes.......;)

which goes to prove that most things can and will be explained by science..... sooner or later!!

The problem is: when 'something' has not been explained by science we have two* main options...

a) The 'something' does not exist.
b) The 'something' is supernatural.

Choose wisely. :)

*In fact there is a third option but implies recognizing our own ignorance about the 'something', let's discard it.