Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

aikido articles


dojo search
image gallery
links directory

book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews


rss feeds

Follow us on

Home > AikiWeb Aikido
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb AikiBlogs > moon in the water

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

moon in the water Blog Tools Rating: Rate This Blog
Creation Date: 04-26-2010 10:46 PM
the water does not try
to reflect the moon
and the moon has no desire
to be reflected
but when the clouds clear
there is the moon in the water
Blog Info
Status: Public
Entries: 155
Comments: 1,111
Views: 1,945,695


In Techniques koshinage koshi waza hip throw Entry Tools Rating: 5 Stars!
  #32 New 12-03-2010 04:15 AM
koshinage koshi waza hip throw There is no point in destroying your uke because then you will no longer have a training partner.
How to Do a Hip Throw (o-goshi) by eHow.com

"So I said can you show us some hip throws?
And he said no, but I can show you some cool pins..."

Koshinage is the name used for all hip throws in aikido. In judo hip throws - koshi waza - are a category of throws.

In aikido there are two basic types of koshinage.

old-style koshinage
In the first type of koshinage at the instant of the throw the uke is at ninety degrees to tori. There is not really a comparable throw in modern judo but the equivalent right-angle body position appears in kataguruma (uke is loaded onto tori's shoulders rather than the waist).

Tori breaks uke's balance and then rolls uke approximately over the line of the belt off to the side. The hip movement in this throw is much less pronounced. This throw is the traditional aikido koshinage and O Sensei can be seen doing it in old photos and film. The older generation of Aikikai teachers sometimes used this technique. For example Sadateru Arikawa Sensei did this version.

O Sensei doing koshinage (from the aikiweb forum discussion below): http://img248.imageshack.us/i/koshiuz9.jpg

If you look at the animation of kataguruma you can see the similarities with traditional aikido koshinage.

judo-style koshinage
In the second type of koshinage uke is behind tori at the moment of the throw. Tori breaks uke's balance and with a sharp twisting hip movement - almost a flick - throws uke directly to the front.

Animation of ogoshi http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

history of koshinage
This second judo-style koshinage has some disadvantages for real self-defence because for an instant you turn your back on uke. So the technique has to be perfect with no weak points - accurately breaking uke's balance. That is probably why this style was not incorporated into aikido originally.

I was at a seminar in Tokyo some years ago with Shoji Nishio Sensei. He said clearly that because of his background in judo he had personally introduced most of the koshinage into aikido. So he was talking about the second judo-style koshinage.

It's true that teachers who have some experience in judo have very powerful koshinage. For example I remember Seiichi Sugano Sensei had a great koshinage. Also Kenji Shimizu Sensei of Tendoryu Aikido has a very dynamic koshinage.

koshinage in aikido today
Some dojos teach koshinage as a normal aikido technique. But it's also true that in many dojos in Japan koshinage is not really thought of as aikido and so it is not included in training at all. At the Aikikai hombu dojo there are only a few teachers who teach it regularly.

So the result of all this is that for a lot of people koshinage has become a little bit intimidating.

On the other side people who have done judo wonder what all the fuss is about. Ogoshi - a simple hip throw with tori's arm wrapped around uke's waist is one of the very first techniques taught in judo. In the Kodokan in Tokyo it is taught to beginners after about one month of learning ukemi and the basics of judo.

So if a white belt can do a hip throw after one month why are even some experienced aikidoka intimidated by koshinage?

One big reason is the ukemi.
In judo ukemi are - mostly - in a down direction.
In aikido mae ukemi are - mostly - in a forward direction. That's what mae means. That's why most aikido dojos teach a mae ukemi with the leg bent. That allows you to get into an attacking position facing any direction. In judo both legs are kept fairly straight in mae mawari ukemi and some of the impact is absorbed by striking the tatami with your feet. So a judo ukemi is kinder on the body for hard throws, especially for beginners.

Related to that is that in a traditional judo dojo the tatami is sprung. One person walking across a dojo can create vibrations at the other side of the dojo. The sprung tatami mats are excellent for absorbing judo throws which are often uke plus tori hitting the ground together. Aikido dojo mats are traditionally much harder. Hard mats are safer because it's not so easy to twist your ankle. They are much better for rolls too. In aikido the uke rolls away from danger and is ready to attack again immediately. In judo the throw is the end of the technique.

In the end it's not rocket science. If you do the ukemi from koshi nage after every training it's going to feel comfortable in a few months. If you do the ukemi from koshi nage every few months it's going to take a long, long time to improve. Crash mats can help beginners to overcome the fear but in the end like most things in aikido it comes down to practice. Then more practice. And then more practice.

the throw
Keep your feet, knees and legs parallel. Your feet should be like the number eleven. Your legs should look like a downhill skier's. It's very dangerous to let your knees splay out - uke might hit one on the way down.

Break uke's balance! Lower your hips well below uke's hips. Get good tight contact with uke. All basic points. As you twist uke over your hips raise them sharply by partly straightening your legs to get a dynamic throw.

There are a few things in aikido which are open to criticism from other budo. For example I'll talk about sword work another time. But koshinage is one. If your dojo doesn't do koshinage that's fine - it's not absolutely necessary in aikido. But if you do it don't do it half-heartedly. I don't want to accept that a judo white belt can do a more effective hip throw than an aikido yudansha. Neither should you.

List of judo techniques http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_judo_techniques

Ogoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Goshi

How to Do a Hip Throw (o-goshi) by eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_4716702_hip-throw-ogoshi.html

Aikiweb forum thread discussion about koshinage (which I found while I was looking for an illustration of koshinage on the internet!) http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2165

great action shot: O Goshi by Jonathan Beck http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorconfusion/3495097925/ photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorco...th/3495097925/ used with his very kind permission

By chance this same shot was captured on video here:
Check it out - keeping in mind that Joe's opponent is doing his best not to be thrown while doing his best to throw him. Joe gets it done though! So in aikido keiko without the resistance and blocking from the uke this should be a piece of cake. Right? So koshinage is not a big deal.

niall matthews 2010
Views: 10862 | Comments: 27

RSS Feed 27 Responses to "koshinage koshi waza hip throw"
#27 01-18-2012 06:27 AM
tlk52 Says:
as to the issue of "is koshinage aikido?" it's puzzling to me as O'Sensei did it in many films, I've studied with Yamada (my sensei), Kanai, Chiba, Sugano, ..... and they do it, innumerable other sensei (including Tohei, Tada, Yamaguchi, ....) do it at the NY Aikikai seminar in Dec 2011 we spent most of one class on these 2 koshi's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfxlquWR1Gc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMvCPQ1RPQ4 best
#26 01-18-2012 06:27 AM
tlk52 Says:
"why it is so difficult for some of us" lack of practice and fear of the ukemi. one way to get over the fear is to spend more time just loading up (ie: load up 2-3X and then throw once), that way the uke can get used to it, nage can work on position, nage can work on position, and it's much less wear and tear on the body, especially for beginners.
#25 12-11-2010 06:22 PM
niall Says:
This is an koshi waza video link from the judo forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzBsKtf87cY
#24 12-11-2010 06:17 PM
niall Says:
Thanks Ziv! Great finds. Yes those are both throws that Arikawa Sensei did occasionally. My memory of them is with his hips probably even lower, but flying through the air I probably wasn't in the best position to judge... The second video is also an example of the way he taught. At 3.20 he does a kaiten nage and slightly inserts his hip. Then perhaps he thought, "Oh, good idea, I should do a koshinage next." It's really good to see those videos. Thanks again.
#23 12-11-2010 11:39 AM
zivk Says:
Hi Niall, I think I've found a couple of examples of Arikawa sensei's koshi-nage. On the following link, starting 2:48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adBPocxNWQ8 And on this link, starting 3:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgDUmiNQv9E What do you think, do these examples representative of his technique?
#22 12-10-2010 06:07 PM
niall Says:
Thanks, Carina. Yes, I agree with you completely. It is a good way to take the ukemi at first. The extra support gives the uke confidence until the ukemi becomes natural. Then for advanced practice gradually it becomes unnecessary and even an obstacle to taking the best ukemi.
#21 12-10-2010 01:37 PM
guest1234567 Says:
I think Niall that what zivk said about grab nage's gi collar is good if uke is a beginner. Otherwise I agree with you that it is safer if he doesn't hold on to be able to fall freely, I like that better and even more if tori has no experience. So it always depends on how experienced uke and tori are.
#20 12-10-2010 10:27 AM
niall Says:
Thanks for that interesting article link, Ziv. Arikawa Sensei's koshinage was the same aikido style koshinage at right angles to uke and with very low hips. It was similar to the photo sequence in the link I included http://img248.imageshack.us/i/koshiuz9.jpg/. In fact he might have lowered his hips even more than those photos. The older generation of teachers (like Tada Sensei as Billy/Makochan mentioned) also used this style.
#19 12-10-2010 10:13 AM
niall Says:
Thanks Ziv! That's really interesting about koshi in Hebrew. About the ukemi you are right uke can grip the collar of tori or hook an arm over tori's arm to get a little support. But as people become more experienced in taking ukemi I actually think it's best if they don't hold on. I think it's safer to be able to fall freely and to be able to escape. (That's my personal opinion).
#18 12-10-2010 01:18 AM
zivk Says:
{comment cntd'} You mentioned Arikawa sensei's koshi-nage. I think that if I'll go through the "dead sea scrolls" of Arikawa sensei (the DVDs from his seminars in France) I might find the answer. But, in the meantime, can you somehow describe it? One last note. Regarding koshi-nage and its history, you might be interested to read an aikiweb column from a couple of years back: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14306
#17 12-10-2010 01:17 AM
zivk Says:
Thank you Niall for writing. It's an interesting and important post. It's quite peculiar but in Hebrew, the word koshi means difficulty. Although I practiced Judo many years ago, I thank this background when performing koshi-nage. Regarding the ukemi, Yaron taught us to grab nage's gi collar, while being hoisted on his hips. The hand serve as some kind of an anchor and the fall is somewhat easier.
#16 12-07-2010 08:48 PM
niall Says:
Thanks Carina. You can also ask anyone who has judo experience to work on koshinage with you.
#15 12-07-2010 01:26 PM
guest1234567 Says:
Thanks Niall, it is normal of me to bring up that point because we women almost always have heavier ukes and that is what usually we are told to do.But Niall you know for me it is difficult to learn from a video.Maybe you can teach me in the future, or I must just ask my teacher or a higher grade to show me and practice with me after class.
#14 12-06-2010 09:01 PM
niall Says:
[continued] In judo style koshinage with a very heavy partner insert your hips less - more like an ukigoshi. Check out the difference on the judoinfo video page http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm. If you look at the Suginoha Ryu example techniques on the right hand side of the page you can see the difference between O goshi (inserting your hips completely) and Uki goshi (inserting your hips partly).
#13 12-06-2010 09:00 PM
niall Says:
By the way great point earlier Carina about taking the uke's weight on your hips not on your back. Also if you are doing the aikido style of koshi nage with a very heavy partner you can usually do the throw without taking much weight at all on your hips. You use your hips as a pivot point and roll uke over them without stopping.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:44 AM.

vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate