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Old 10-23-2011, 08:49 PM   #51
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...that's neither here nor there, O Great Sage.

It's not a matter of belief: it's a matter of justifying your position.
Racists can't justify their position, so they are disregarded; creationists cannot justify their position, so they are disregarded; you can't justify your position...

If Ueshiba had just gone around...talking, then aikido would have died on its arse; instead, he put his money where his mouth was, proved himself - and what luck: you've heard of aikido.

And if you're such a nice, peaceful, enlightened guy, then why are you content to be an annoyance?
Aren't you just posting in order to puff yourself up?
I could debate what you say there but you may not like it. Thus see me as an annoyance? For instance Ueshiba did plenty plenty talking but as recorded those students didn't understand what he was on about. Now I talk as this is a forum for so doing and what luck, you've heard of my Aikido. Now, does that annoy you?

You will find my basic position has not changed since I entered the forum so consistency is there, explanations and backing philosophy are there. I do indeed justify my 'position' so those annoyed are merely against what I say. Maybe nice peaceful guys shouldn't say their opinion for fear of others being annoyed.

Your final question about posting to puff myself up. Now that's more interesting. That's actually close to something. As they say in the game of hide and seek 'you're getting warmer'.

Let's take Dan shall we. (I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning his name here) He is one for putting himself foreward and the merits of what he does. Blatantly at times and kind of no holds barred. That's him and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I on the other hand am a different charachter, not one for doing so.

However, on this forum I found if I did it was met by a great reaction. Strange I thought. I showed it to all my friends and those who know me. They laughed. Apart from every one of them saying it's because they don't understand, more importantly for me was they said they always wonder why I don't put it out there more. These are people from within and without of Aikido who know me and that means have personal experience of my Aikido or have even seen it in action for real outside of the dojo.

So as I said you're getting warm. On this forum I put it foreward, I put it out there, partly as an experiment. An experiment to see who has similar realities in Aikido and an experiment to see how I like personally putting it foreward. I learn a lot by doing so.

Most surprisingly I learn that some think their view about my way is superior somehow to mine. They don't know me so they don't see the the simple fact that I know me. Too simple. For me it's rather amazing.

But now I am getting to understand. The truth of the matter is those few, or many, who cares, don't understand. There's no other word to use I'm afraid. You believe that my Aikido is weak and and good for self developement with no martial application. You believe that. I compare your belief to what I know. Therefore I can say you are wrong. Therefore I can say you don't understand my Aikido.

I can say the Aiki discussed recently I understand a little but the ins and outs and methods of practice people are enthusing about I can say I don't understand. I do understand more than those who rear up think though. But compared to those who teach it nah, no comparison. It's not hard to say what I do and don't understand and degrees thereof.

Does that mean I haven't come across people who do forms of internal power and internal strength? No. Have I felt it from them? Yes. Have I seen benefits of it for them? Yes. Am I against it? No.

That's their cup of tea.

Bottom line, I don't fit your parameters of someone who can do what I can do therefore I can't be real.

Do you even understand if I say to you that what I can do isn't even that important to me?

I may be wrong but I can only conclude that those who continually want to pick up and argue and try to make wrong anything I say do not want to understand. I can say this because those that do usually end up contacting via pm.

Anyway if I wind you up by giving my opinion the don't talk to me, it's quite simple.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:08 PM   #52
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Arrogant yes. But by focusing too much on that aspect you ignore the incoherence of your message which is also worthy of mention.

Regards,
Anthony
Anthony. Have you ever met a senior Aikidoka you were not impressed by? I bet everyone has if they are honest. I have met many people let alone Aikido people who must therefore in their field know much more than me and guess what? Some I wasn't impressed with.

The incoherence you do indeed mention. Is that down to me?

On I/P threads they can seem at times very incoherent to me but it's not really down to the people writing them it's more to do with me not understanding the words used. I have therefore a choice. I can ask for clarification or accept I need to study more about it before I can join in. Or I can see the gist of it and decide if I'm actually interested. The emphasis is on me not the writer. I'm sure they are explaining as best they can.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:15 PM   #53
Janet Rosen
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Re: True Warfare

Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:19 PM   #54
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Re: True Warfare

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?
Word. Horse to water and all that.

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Old 10-23-2011, 11:11 PM   #55
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Re: True Warfare

Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing

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Old 10-23-2011, 11:57 PM   #56
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Re: True Warfare

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Torbjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing
Argh, matey! Avast ye! It be this talk of warfare methinks! It be like grog in the gullet; it warms the temper me hearty!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:55 AM   #57
lbb
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Re: True Warfare

Well, what WAS the topic? It started with something that may have been an allegory, or a metaphor, or a parable, or it may have been intended as a literal description, I have no idea. What is there to respond to? What was the point?
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:24 AM   #58
grondahl
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Re: True Warfare

Is there any kind of warfare that is "untrue" or is it a matter of degrees? And how does this relate to aikido?
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:47 AM   #59
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?
what was the topic again? true warfare? no such thing. "all warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
deception cannot be truth; thus, there cannot be true warfare, but only deceptive warfare. of course, there is truth in deception which makes deception truth. ooohhhh crapppp, my head! ohhhh my head! it's spinning! need more drinking to stop the spinning!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:50 AM   #60
Mark Freeman
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Re: True Warfare

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what was the topic again? true warfare? no such thing. "all warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
deception cannot be truth; thus, there cannot be true warfare, but only deceptive warfare. of course, there is truth in deception which makes deception truth. ooohhhh crapppp, my head! ohhhh my head! it's spinning! need more drinking to stop the spinning!
Ah, nice to see a man at war with himself

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:54 AM   #61
Mark Freeman
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Torbjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing
If you toss a smoldering cigarette butt into a flammable liquid??

What was the intent of your opening post? to promote thought? to educate? to stimulate?

Not sure I got link between the title and the passage,

regards,

Mark

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Old 10-24-2011, 10:19 AM   #62
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm guessing this isn't a prescription for war so much as a metaphor for how we might project our ki/intent into our would-be attackers, maximizing utility?
Yes it is Matthew, and it is meant to stimulate thought. How do we touch our opponent? How do we enter inside? What is interior martial arts as opposed to exterior? This is my own exploration in daily practice. What I describe is what I try to convey to my students in the dojo. A very good start to this sensitivity training can be experienced through seated ryote-dori kokyu-ho. As uke grabs you can you enter inside his grip without violating his grip, without wrenching but rather accommodating his firm grasp? How can this only be achieved non-violently? Why then is peace and stillness a prerequisite for ability? Why is a firm foundation in kihon, basics so important for this to be available to you? How do we progress.

Is anyone curious to find out if they do not initially understand the metaphor? It is a true statement, not mere fantasy. When you discover in training this connection you will never have it in another way. Like water, you flow into the opponent the moment you engage. Are you willing to explore the possibility?

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Old 10-24-2011, 10:24 AM   #63
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Re: True Warfare

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Torbjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Before openly engaging in a sensitive and non-violent physical response to an aggressive attack we penetrate and pervade him with loving kindness long before him knowing about it. We enter his soul through a spiritual insight revealing his ego strongholds. With this preemptive attitude we disarm his ability to launch effectively and we neutralize his intention to attack and channel his aggression back onto himself. Overwhelming him with a feeling of peace we control the situation.
So please read the opening post again after reading this. It applies mentally but can and should be trained, felt and experienced in daily practice. The mental principles applies to your physical sensitivity in relationship with uke.

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Old 10-24-2011, 10:28 AM   #64
gregstec
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Re the OP - like Matthew I read it as a macro version if you will of the concept of ki(or intent) leads mind, mind leads body ... tho it would be nice for OP to return to the thread and engage or comment a bit!
Not to pick a nit, but I have always heard it as heart leads mind, mind leads intent, intent leads ki, and ki leads body

Mind and intent are NOT exactly the same - Intent is a function of Mind - but for most purposes within discussions of ki, mind and intent are generally viewed as one.

Greg
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:41 AM   #65
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Re: True Warfare

Knowing what you want, knowing how to proceed, is key. Learning sensitivity through ceaseless training with a skilled teacher is alone effective. Endo sensei is a master at this level. I can see it in his Aikido, but I discover it for myself in my own training. Sensitive in mind, in body and in spirit cultivates this discovery of true budo.

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Old 10-24-2011, 11:47 AM   #66
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

Thought provoking yes. I agree with the principles but the analogy of the o/p not sure. Are you saying that's what should happen in war? Plus 'invade' another country gives the question why?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:19 PM   #67
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thought provoking yes. I agree with the principles but the analogy of the o/p not sure. Are you saying that's what should happen in war? Plus 'invade' another country gives the question why?

Regards.G.
I think the short answer is one like, "if one had to because there was no other option." Like all hypotheticals it depends on certain presumptions that we could probably "what-if" forever. My first reaction was similar to yours, but after a little while I made the connection that spies are information gatherers, much like the nerves in the body.

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Old 10-24-2011, 05:39 PM   #68
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think the short answer is one like, "if one had to because there was no other option." Like all hypotheticals it depends on certain presumptions that we could probably "what-if" forever. My first reaction was similar to yours, but after a little while I made the connection that spies are information gatherers, much like the nerves in the body.
I see that connection but question it's validity. The use of spies and cutting communication and finding various points etc. to me is the way of maybe a strategist pr maybe even tsun tsu himself but hardly a demonstration in analogy of his second post.

Sounds to me more like covert operations.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:49 PM   #69
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I see that connection but question it's validity. The use of spies and cutting communication and finding various points etc. to me is the way of maybe a strategist pr maybe even tsun tsu himself but hardly a demonstration in analogy of his second post.

Sounds to me more like covert operations.

Regards.G.
Well in the sense that aiki is subtle, I think covert operations still seems like it could fit the bill. "Internal" seems to describe a covert op whereas "external" would seem to describe overt/conventional ops.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:03 PM   #70
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Well in the sense that aiki is subtle, I think covert operations still seems like it could fit the bill. "Internal" seems to describe a covert op whereas "external" would seem to describe overt/conventional ops.
I see that as probably the way many would see it but I don't. For me there is no covertness and deception inherent in those principles described.

This is also where we part on the subject of Aiki. (assuming the second post is as part of aiki or aikido)

Thus without argument may we agree to differ?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:15 PM   #71
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I see that as probably the way many would see it but I don't. For me there is no covertness and deception inherent in those principles described.

This is also where we part on the subject of Aiki. (assuming the second post is as part of aiki or aikido)

Thus without argument may we agree to differ?

Regards.G.
Of course we can agree to disagree. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I think you and I tend to have a lot of similar sentiments about budo and aikido, even where we describe things differently. I'm offering my view; you're offering yours. I'll only add that where you see covert acton as perhaps necessitating deception, I see it as being essentially invisible. There might be deception involved in addition, but that would imply giving some clue in the first place which strikes me as allowing the "opponant" something to respond to (which can include the consideration of potential deception).
Take care, Graham,
Matt

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Old 10-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #72
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Of course we can agree to disagree. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I think you and I tend to have a lot of similar sentiments about budo and aikido, even where we describe things differently. I'm offering my view; you're offering yours. I'll only add that where you see covert acton as perhaps necessitating deception, I see it as being essentially invisible. There might be deception involved in addition, but that would imply giving some clue in the first place which strikes me as allowing the "opponant" something to respond to (which can include the consideration of potential deception).
Take care, Graham,
Matt
Nice differentiation between deception and covertness. Maybe it's ninja aiki.

Rgards.G.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:30 PM   #73
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice differentiation between deception and covertness. Maybe it's ninja aiki.

Rgards.G.
Well I have been a ninja since grade school! Oops! Wasn't supposed to tell you that, now I have to use my secret memory erasing technique on you. It's not dangerous, but you may think you're a unicycle-riding viking for a day or two. It's not altogether unpleasant, actually.
Take care, sir!
Matt

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Old 10-24-2011, 09:41 PM   #74
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Re: True Warfare

Do anything for your people's survival: No honor in war ecept the perception of it in politics and prpaganda, mere degrees of survival, yet honor happen in the sacrifices, as seen by the community, seemingly a paradox.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:11 PM   #75
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Re: True Warfare

The fragrance of flowers invades your senses but we don't seem to mind. We wake up and it's a new dawn and we don't cry foul play. Peace is pro-active, like a fragrance can't but help to spread its nuance. There are no borders to uphold. No lines but what man has drawn. If its invades your privacy so be it. Love is a rule not an option. Therefore if you're aware of it or not, you'll have to submit and surrender. Love rules supreme and as such Aiki conquers. Under cover or in open daylight, you'll have no choice. Aiki warfare is peace in action. It's a joy to be invaded.

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