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Old 01-16-2011, 10:50 AM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Aikido,Taiji,bagua,Yichuan ect are all based on exercises that involve the whole body to drop into the ground (gravity).
Taiji calls this cold power,other names are Ki or Chi.
In other words" You" bring everything to the table at once.
You did OK until you tried to relate "Cold Power" to simple "whole body to drop into the the ground (gravity)". If it was that simple, no one would have bothered to make whole arts around it, unless they were simpletons.

I remember some guy who wrote an article for "Inside Kung Fu" once (some years ago) who told everyone that "reeling silk" was nothing more than people using the arch/bend of the back and releasing it for power. It was an interesting statement, but unfortunately it said one thing to people who knew less than he did and it said another very different thing to people who knew more than he did. But that's always the case, I guess.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2011, 11:19 AM   #52
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

What a load of B******s.........
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:47 PM   #53
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You did OK until you tried to relate "Cold Power" to simple "whole body to drop into the the ground (gravity)". If it was that simple, no one would have bothered to make whole arts around it, unless they were simpletons.

I remember some guy who wrote an article for "Inside Kung Fu" once (some years ago) who told everyone that "reeling silk" was nothing more than people using the arch/bend of the back and releasing it for power. It was an interesting statement, but unfortunately it said one thing to people who knew less than he did and it said another very different thing to people who knew more than he did. But that's always the case, I guess.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
No I didn't do well Sir Isaac Newton did .
You did well not to argue with him.
Only simpletons do that,and quite a few internal martial artists do just that.

Cold power,fajin,silk reeling..just terms for whole body power,which all starts in the feet on" solid" ground.Being suspended off the ground or on a trampoline it's a different story.

The Bible was written by many people over 14 hundred years so I have been told,So I suspect the martial arts were developed in a similar fashion but a longer period by many, building on what had gone before and not always good either.

You see many people doing push hands training,or should I say sumo and then put on boxing gloves as if boxing was part of the art...something got lost in the sauce or source!

William Ewart Fairbairn took the crap out jujitsu and bagua and came up with the gentle art of murder.As yet the highest number of unarmed and armed kills of any martial art documented.The Chinese and Japanese skilled in their pyjama arts didn't do very well against it.Their ki and chi dissapeared.The American and British soldiers were only trained in it for short periods of time.

WHY? Because it worked even for simpletons!

mark
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:55 PM   #54
Mark Freeman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, in the spirit of things, I will teach everyone how to do "aiki" in one easy lesson. In order not to insult O-Sensei or even Daito-Ryu, I will form my own art and instead of calling it "Aikido", I will call it "Meik-do".

Send me a check for $300 to

Mike Sigman
P.O. Box 1129837-A
Lower BomFok, Indiana

And I will send you the secret video of how to Meik-do in one day on the internet.

Yours in Sincerity.

Mike Sigman
The cheque is in the post Mike, I look forward to receiving the video

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:32 PM   #55
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

It seems I've not chosen the most appropiate emoticon in my previous posts. Anyway, Mr. de Vos, look for IS training with an open mind but be cautious.

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Old 01-16-2011, 05:32 PM   #56
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Contrary to the noise, David, if you stick with the known fellows from here *they* have all been vetted by hundreds of students and teachers alike.
My advice is to get out to meet three or four of them to see what people are talking about,and get a feel for who you want to train with.
All the best
Dan
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:05 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
No I didn't do well Sir Isaac Newton did .
Sadly, Newton was not reknowned as an internal martial-artist.
Quote:
Cold power,fajin,silk reeling..just terms for whole body power,which all starts in the feet on" solid" ground.Being suspended off the ground or on a trampoline it's a different story.
Not true. See? You just learned something new. Free of charge. Hands Across the Sea, and all that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:27 PM   #58
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Contrary to the noise, David, if you stick with the known fellows from here *they* have all been vetted by hundreds of students and teachers alike.
No disrespect intended for any of the "usual suspects" but, as probably David don't know these people are he can't be sure if "they" have been vetted by people like Huizinga, Rutten, Spijkers, Aerts or Bluming (for naming some people he probably knows or at least have heard about) or if "they" have been vetted by lesser skilled martial artists.

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Old 01-16-2011, 06:50 PM   #59
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
No disrespect intended for any of the "usual suspects" but, as probably David don't know these people are he can't be sure if "they" have been vetted by people like Huizinga, Rutten, Spijkers, Aerts or Bluming (for naming some people he probably knows or at least have heard about) or if "they" have been vetted by lesser skilled martial artists.
None taken. Caution is always a good thing.
David has been reading... and I am quite sure he will figure things out. He is going to hook up with Mike and also me, and I am sure he will meet Ark as well.
So far the people vetting these various skills as valid..(some are far more adamant, insisting they have revolutionized their understanding of their arts) include shihan, and a host of teachers and high ranked students in arts like Aikido, Daito ryu, Karate, judo, FMA, ICMA, and students and Menkyo in Koryu etc.
But...hey..whatever.:shrugs: far more and much better things are being shared behind the scenes anyway than on line, which is why as a movement, this continues to grow unabated between those sharing and trying to help and those diligently at work....and having fun.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-16-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:25 PM   #60
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
But...hey..whatever.:shrugs: far more and much better things are being shared behind the scenes anyway than on line, which is why as a movement, this continues to grow unabated between those sharing and trying to help and those diligently at work....and having fun.
This pretty much sums it up for me. People are out there doing the work. People are getting together to see what the fuss is about. I don't care so much for some of the tones I see here on Aikiweb because they seem to all come at things from an agenda one way or another.

For me, the bottom line was that if you had questions around this, you should have been lining up to feel what people were doing several years ago. At this point, if you're just now deciding that you want to get a foot in the door, you're going to have some catch up. The good news is that you have pretty good chances of passing people who have felt these skills but aren't doing enough work because they think it's an "add-on" to what they already know.

If you seriously think this is a bunch of fruit-loops. I submit that you should go feel what people are doing (someone that's vetted, not someone that just says they can do it). I also challenge you NOT to be an asshole about it. Most of these guys will let you test them if you want at it - I encourage you to do so. Otherwise, why speak about something you clearly haven't a clue about?
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:45 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I also challenge you NOT to be an asshole about it. Most of these guys will let you test them if you want at it - I encourage you to do so.
I like goofing around as much as the next guy, but in regard to "testing", there's a legitimate question about who "tests" and what they're really testing that can be a complex situation.

Think of this situation as an example: I give a regular workshop and cover the basics pretty well, show the logic, try to keep away from flashy demo's because if they try to do flashy demo's too quickly they're going back to normal strength and technique very quickly. At the end of the workshop I feel like I've done a pretty good job of laying out the big picture, the how-to exercises, I've encouraged everyone to try to drop the normal mode of movement for a few months while they try to get their foot in the door, etc. Class is over. Immediately 3 or 4 guys want to see if I'm good at push-hands, so sure I play around with them and bounce them around some... but what did they just do? They just proved that everything I just said in the workshop blew right past them; they have no real intention of changing the way they've always moved.

Or this situation. A guy who has been doing Aikido (or Taiji or karate.. you name the art) for "twenty-five" years and has a godan comes and wants to fool around a little bit to get an idea. He's impressed and swears I am godlike in my powers and he should know because he's a godan, right? Wrong. If he was a godan who knew anything about internal strength he would have already had some; since he doesn't, he's a beginner and his opinion is no more or less valid than another beginner's. So his 'seal of approval' is meaningless. I could be teaching him some jack-leg homebrew half-wrong largely guess approach to "internal strength", but if I use my 230 pounds to really lay some heavy smacks on him, I can make him a believer. Except that's not how it should work, is it?

All that being said, there's more to it than just making an impression. The way I always did it was that I went to a known expert in internal strength who may have had experience with Joe Blow and I asked: "How good is that guy?".... because in the early days I was smart enough to know that I didn't know enough to judge and my peers didn't either.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:58 PM   #62
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

I think the smart folks realize there's something missing and chase after it like a demon. Some people need to take a good thumping in order to look at things with fresh eyes. Hopefully from there, they circle back to behaving like smart folks. If not, hopefully they will at least encourage people to go figure it out for themselves. If not, maybe there's a chance they won't speak too much out of their bum.

Beyond that, it's kinda the normal state of affairs .
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:08 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I think the smart folks realize there's something missing and chase after it like a demon.
Yeah, but the operative word is "smart". Someone who is not smart, or at least smart in this way of body mechanics, probably isn't going to make it past the "few cute tricks" level. When someone in Japan says "steal this technique" or someone in China shows you something and says, "Understand?", that means they're not going to tell you everything and that you have to logically figure a lot of it out through thinking and your practice. The reason this is the traditional way is because this way of movement has a number of complexities and no one can babysit you through every aspect of it.... you have to be able to think these things through. A lot of people will simply never get it or get much more than a few basic kokyu tricks or whatever. It's what I call the "I.Q. Threshold". But it's all part of the fun. If it was easy, it wouldn't be a Tao/Do... it'd be a hobby.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:15 PM   #64
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If it was easy, it wouldn't be a Tao/Do... it'd be a hobby.
Too true *sighs*
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:05 AM   #65
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

One question I like to use to evaluate a workshop (of any kind) is: did I get any better? Not "was the teacher really awesome and impressive", but did I learn something that I can take with me and use to improve my skills in whatever the workshop was about.

I have been to workships (in other disciplines mind you) where I had a really good time, was very impressed by the teacher, but afterwards had to ask myself what if anything I actually learned. (And of course that could have also to do with me and not just the teacher. )

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:27 AM   #66
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
One question I like to use to evaluate a workshop (of any kind) is: did I get any better? Not "was the teacher really awesome and impressive", but did I learn something that I can take with me and use to improve my skills in whatever the workshop was about.
I totally agree, Pauliina. If a person does not leave a workshop better than when they came in, it was a waste of time. A lot of people will sigh and moan about a workshop with Joe Blow and say "I learned so much!" and I just say, "Can you show me?". Perennial seminar goers are usually about the same, year after year. They would be better advised to stay home for the weekend and *think* and do some work.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:31 AM   #67
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Sadly, Newton was not reknowned as an internal martial-artist.
Not true. See? You just learned something new. Free of charge. Hands Across the Sea, and all that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
My hands do reach across the sea

My main internal arts teacher is an American,a former forensic investigator in the dynamics of violence in Yonkers.

The best and most powerful martial artist I have ever seen.

He would say mark my limey friend why train for 30 years in tai chi when that level is attainable in 2 years.If only they had studied physics,they would understand how and what exercises for subtle but very powerful muscle control.

Mike, good discussion!
Hands across the pond as the yanks say!

Mark.
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:41 AM   #68
Lee Salzman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
He would say mark my limey friend why train for 30 years in tai chi when that level is attainable in 2 years.If only they had studied physics,they would understand how and what exercises for subtle but very powerful muscle control.
Would you perhaps show us some videos of someone who has studied in this method for at least 2 years, or perhaps take videos of your own capabilities? If we are wasting our time, then it would become readily apparent to us if such was the case, and we would not merely have to take a few written words on the internet for it. Don't claim - show!

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 01-17-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:43 AM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
My main internal arts teacher is an American,a former forensic investigator in the dynamics of violence in Yonkers.

The best and most powerful martial artist I have ever seen.

He would say mark my limey friend why train for 30 years in tai chi when that level is attainable in 2 years.If only they had studied physics,they would understand how and what exercises for subtle but very powerful muscle control.
Well, that settles it then.... you win your argument by assertion by means of appeal to authority: your own and your teacher's. No way I can beat that.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:55 AM   #70
Marc Abrams
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
My hands do reach across the sea

My main internal arts teacher is an American,a former forensic investigator in the dynamics of violence in Yonkers.

The best and most powerful martial artist I have ever seen.

He would say mark my limey friend why train for 30 years in tai chi when that level is attainable in 2 years.If only they had studied physics,they would understand how and what exercises for subtle but very powerful muscle control.

Mike, good discussion!
Hands across the pond as the yanks say!

Mark.
Mark:

Would your teacher happen to be Mark Sternefeld?

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:56 AM   #71
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I think the smart folks realize there's something missing and chase after it like a demon. Some people need to take a good thumping in order to look at things with fresh eyes. Hopefully from there, they circle back to behaving like smart folks. If not, hopefully they will at least encourage people to go figure it out for themselves. If not, maybe there's a chance they won't speak too much out of their bum.

Beyond that, it's kinda the normal state of affairs .
Sssssshhhhh.....
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:31 AM   #72
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Would you perhaps show us some videos of someone who has studied in this method for at least 2 years, or perhaps take videos of your own capabilities? If we are wasting our time, then it would become readily apparent to us if such was the case, and we would not merely have to take a few written words on the internet for it. Don't claim - show!
I never said you were wasting your time!
It was a quote from someone else.

However, do you think these original taiji,bagua masters trained 10 hours a day for 30 years before they were any good?
Take a look at top flight gymnasts..not many 70 year olds taking part.

Only you know if you're happy with your training!
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:34 AM   #73
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mark:

Would your teacher happen to be Mark Sternefeld?

Marc Abrams
From one mark to another,about another Mark!

In short No...never heared of him!
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:45 AM   #74
markyboy64
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, that settles it then.... you win your argument by assertion by means of appeal to authority: your own and your teacher's. No way I can beat that.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Constructive arguments are better...challenge no-one, the first rule of self defence!

Take care- Mark.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:54 AM   #75
Marc Abrams
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
From one mark to another,about another Mark!

In short No...never heared of him!
Pray tell, who might it be? I happen to live in Westchester county and know a lot of the teachers in the area.

marc
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