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04-06-2012, 10:24 PM
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#1
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Internal power in tai chi chuan
I recently (8 months) started Tai Chi with william C C chen, who emphasizes tai chi for fighting and isn't into any mystical kind of anything. He's probably best known for training fighters that win tournaments, both push hands and also san shou (sanda)
his tai chi form is VERY soft, but in his training you separate the ribcage from the abdomen to generate power(in the context of the movement) and each tai chi move has 1--3X of moving, collapsing and raising and twisting the ribcage independently (no bending-without it effecting the rest of your posture, very subtle, you can hardly see it when he's doing the form, but he let me feel his ribs and it was amazing how much movement there was) ...its exhausting and feels like doing situps inside your ribcage... after doing it for a few weeks now I can feel the inside muscles (that I've never used before) becoming stronger... of course that's only one aspect.
the point I'm making is that for master Chen, the internal power is physical, bio-mechanical and not something mystical.
I'm finding it very interesting
here's an interview that he did about 3 years ago at age 75 (though the interviewer doesn't seem to know much about tai chi)
http://quest.tv/free-tv-channels/mop...-nails-theory/
and his latest article:
http://www.williamccchen.com/DOC_15.htm
Last edited by tlk52 : 04-06-2012 at 10:34 PM.
Reason: typo
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04-07-2012, 04:22 AM
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#2
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Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 350
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote:
I recently (8 months) started Tai Chi with william C C chen, who emphasizes tai chi for fighting and isn't into any mystical kind of anything. He's probably best known for training fighters that win tournaments, both push hands and also san shou (sanda)
the point I'm making is that for master Chen, the internal power is physical, bio-mechanical and not something mystical.
I'm finding it very interesting
here's an interview that he did about 3 years ago at age 75 (though the interviewer doesn't seem to know much about tai chi)
http://quest.tv/free-tv-channels/mop...-nails-theory/
and his latest article:
http://www.williamccchen.com/DOC_15.htm
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As it is for most doing serious IP training
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If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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04-07-2012, 04:34 PM
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#3
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Nice description. William Chen is a good source for learning (one) perspective on internal power. I'd venture to say that his understanding of internal power is developed more from his own study than on what he learned specificially from Zheng Manqing. The separation of ribs/intercostals from abdomen is interesting and may be similar to Fujian Baihequan (White Crane) shenfa (body usage), which influenced a younger fellow student of Zheng Manqing, Waysun Liao (teaches in Chicago), who studied Baihequan and later taijiquan in Taiwan under Zheng Manqing.
It's a good practice and Mr. Chen is a well-respected teacher. Both his son Max and daughter Tiffany compete in MMA, although to what extent either uses taiji in tournament fights is hard to say.
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04-07-2012, 07:01 PM
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#4
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Thomas Campbell wrote "William Chen is a good source for learning (one) perspective on internal power. I'd venture to say that his understanding of internal power is developed more from his own study than on what he learned specifically from Zheng Manqing"
--I think that may be true, and I do realize that his is a very personal perspective, but I think a great place to start
one thing about master Chen is that he's been studying, and working on, and refining his ideas about body mechanics since the 1980s (he's 78 now). ie his theory of the "3 nails", his ideas on how the weight moves and how to deliver punches... see that article above (he writes a lot).
He's into tai chi being a living breathing, changing tradition. He often says that his fellow students of Zheng Manqing sometimes argue about who is doing the "real Zheng Manqing style", but that from his point of view 1) none of them are, because their all doing their own style, and 2) that there is no ultimate fixed singular right way and that we have to constantly test and improve things and do your own research, both for fighting and for teaching.
I find his articles interesting both for the bio-mechanical ideas, and for his emphasis that competitive fighting/pushing is the best laboratory to test out if what your thinking about works and also that when your opponents fight you they use their best techniques and don't hold back or hide anything, so you can receive their technique and learn thereby...
"Both his son Max and daughter Tiffany compete in MMA"
I'm not sure if they do ground grappling UFC etc... though I wouldn't be surprised, I do know that they do compete in kick boxing (san shou) and I know Tiffany boxes golden gloves too. they both teach at the school.
however I'm just a newbie and hope to start pushing soon
anyway I'm having a great time with this stuff while continuing to practice Aikido...
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04-08-2012, 09:59 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote:
He's into tai chi being a living breathing, changing tradition. He often says that his fellow students of Zheng Manqing sometimes argue about who is doing the "real Zheng Manqing style", but that from his point of view 1) none of them are, because their all doing their own style, and 2) that there is no ultimate fixed singular right way and that we have to constantly test and improve things and do your own research, both for fighting and for teaching.
I find his articles interesting both for the bio-mechanical ideas, and for his emphasis that competitive fighting/pushing is the best laboratory to test out if what your thinking about works and also that when your opponents fight you they use their best techniques and don't hold back or hide anything, so you can receive their technique and learn
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I think Mr. Chen's outlook is spot-on. You'll have a great time.
Cheers.
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04-08-2012, 09:16 PM
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#6
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Dojo: Ronin
Location: CO
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 103
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote:
his tai chi form is VERY soft, but in his training you separate the ribcage from the abdomen to generate power(in the context of the movement) and each tai chi move has 1--3X of moving, collapsing and raising and twisting the ribcage independently (no bending-without it effecting the rest of your posture, very subtle, you can hardly see it when he's doing the form, but he let me feel his ribs and it was amazing how much movement there was)
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Is there a youtube clip that demonstrates separating the ribcage from the abdomen? I haven't come across this before.
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04-09-2012, 06:40 AM
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#7
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Ive never heard of 'separating the ribcage from the abdomen' either. I am curious how this could be used for power generation because I dont understand how it could be, but am open to different methods of power generation if it makes sense, can be taught and replicated, and works.
as to the subject at hand...
all good (ie. based in reality) 'internal power' methods are based in sound physical and biomechanical principles.
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04-09-2012, 11:06 AM
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#8
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
the ribs thing is part of the "winding" I
couldn't find any videos of master chen doing this, I don't think that he's so into putting things on youtube etc...but, I found this, which looks very similar, drop ribs/chest, opening while winding up under his left armpit & then releases the wind towards the end of the forward movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5OgzOXy38U
Last edited by tlk52 : 04-09-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
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#9
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Brett Zimmerman wrote:
Ive never heard of 'separating the ribcage from the abdomen' either. I am curious how this could be used for power generation because I dont understand how it could be, but am open to different methods of power generation if it makes sense, can be taught and replicated, and works.
as to the subject at hand...
all good (ie. based in reality) 'internal power' methods are based in sound physical and biomechanical principles.
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The way I might interpret it is that as an isolated movement, it is not going to do much. But that as a component of the, for example, ideal/abstract bodily states of 'open' and 'close', it is a critical part of actively carrying power through the area and also of generating power for the other parts to carry through as well. Your trunk is a big flexible ellipsoidal rod... thing, and the surest way to kill its potential is to treat is as a big stiff block. I think it may have been said elsewhere somewhere, that morning glory/asagao is in the body, not in the hand, per se.
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04-17-2012, 02:14 PM
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#10
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Dojo: don't have a dojo in the aikido style. various teachers JMA and CMA
Location: Guelph Ontario/sapporo Hokkaido/Shanghai China
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 7
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Chen CC is good!!
One of the best for learning taiji fighting skills in the United states. If I had my choice, I would prefer to study with Peter Ralston (one of Chen's best students) again, but I like Chen's work.
One point that I must take umbrage with is that he is the most famous for winning tournaments.
It is not true!
Maybe in the US he is pretty famous, but in China nobody knows his name, or even his teacher, zheng's name. They are only popular and America, Europe and Taiwan. In mainland China there are many, many more famous taiji fighters than him. The Zhaobao taiji school called tuishou dao has several people who fight in sanda. Also, Hong Junsheng's student, Li Enjiu beat one of the top sanda fighters in mainland China.
It was very interesting to learn that the majority of the big names in North America are not heard of or even considered to have any skills on the mainland. Overall, the taiji practice in the states is much lower than the mainland as well.
Having been exposed to some very serious lineages of taiji, xinyi, and xingyi all over China, i have to say, there is not a single person in the United states who really has top level taiji skills (at least not who teaches in public). Although I would put my money on Tim Cartmell being able to beat the vast majority of Chinese martial arts people. American teachers tend to focus much more on certain small parts of training and tend to miss the big picture.
At the same time, CC Chen is the best at the Zheng Manqing style. There is no one else in that style I would rather learn from (if we consider Peter as his own style).
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04-17-2012, 05:17 PM
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#11
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Robert,
thanks for the information, I'm going to find out more about Tim Cartmell and Peter Ralston.
"even his teacher, zheng's name. They are only popular and America, Europe and Taiwan"
Still, that's pretty good to be well known on 3 continents.
I don't know where Zheng is from but WCCC met him as a teen while living in Taiwan. WCCC then lived in Malaysia before coming to the US. So I don't know if he ever lived in mainland China, except as a child.
but just for the record I didn't claim that William C C Chen is "the most famous for winning tournaments." in the world, or in China...
I just said that "He's probably best known for training fighters that win tournaments, both push hands and also san shou (sanda)" which you've now confirmed!
he's very generous as a teacher.
best
Last edited by tlk52 : 04-17-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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04-17-2012, 06:23 PM
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#12
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Dojo: don't have a dojo in the aikido style. various teachers JMA and CMA
Location: Guelph Ontario/sapporo Hokkaido/Shanghai China
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 7
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote:
Robert,
I don't know where Zheng is from but WCCC met him as a teen while living in Taiwan. WCCC then lived in Malaysia before coming to the US. So I don't know if he ever lived in mainland China, except as a child.
but just for the record I didn't claim that William C C Chen is "the most famous for winning tournaments." in the world, or in China...
I just said that "He's probably best known for training fighters that win tournaments, both push hands and also san shou (sanda)" which you've now confirmed!
he's very generous as a teacher.
best
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He is taiwanese, but he learned from Yang Chengfu. He highly modified Yang's taiji after he had a dream in which his arms were broken and he had to fight without them. Or at least according to his personal narrative.
Sorry i misread what you said, my bad. I should have read more carefully.
WCCC is certainly well known for training fighters. Ralston for instance is great!!
I won't argue with that!
I love what WCCC and Peter did for American martial arts.
I've only heard good things about WCCC in terms of his training and how he teaches.
Certainly there are no other students of Zheng Manqing's who are as skillful at the whole package of taiji as WCCC. also I think Zheng himself was probably not as skillful at fighting. Though he claimed to have beaten Han Muxia.
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04-17-2012, 08:02 PM
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#13
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Location: Crownsville, Md
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 42
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Robert Coons wrote:
He is taiwanese, but he learned from Yang Chengfu.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch'ing
Quote:
Cheng Man-ch'ing (simplified Chinese: 郑曼青; traditional Chinese: 鄭曼青; pinyin: Zhèng Mànqīng) (July 29, 1902 - March 26, 1975) was born in Yongjia (present-day Wenzhou), Zhejiang Province (his birthday was on the 28th year of the Guangxu emperor's reign, 6th month, 25th day, which corresponds to July 29, 1902).
....Around 1930 Cheng met the well-known master Yang Chengfu (1883--1936), with whom he began to study Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan, until Yang died. While the exact dates of Cheng's study with Yang are not clear, one of Yang's top students, scholar Chen Weiming wrote that Cheng studied six years with Yang.
....By 1946, he had developed a significantly abbreviated 37-move version of Yang's traditional form.
....Cheng moved to Taiwan in 1949.
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04-17-2012, 08:07 PM
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#14
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
"also I think Zheng himself was probably not as skillful at fighting. "
in one of the interview articles on his site WCCC is asked by one of the senior students if Zheng tested his Tai Chi in tournaments, and WCCC said that he wasn't sure but didn't think so, but that Zheng never objected when he started to fight in them.
Robert wrote-"He highly modified Yang's taiji after he had a dream in which his arms were broken and he had to fight without them. "
-that's very interesting considering the style, the arms never move by themselves, he talks about this often. and nothing is extended very far from the body.
WCCC is very pragmatic about fighting, he writes a lot about this in his articles.
Robert,
as experienced as you are I'd be interested in your reaction to his latest article that I linked to in the 1st post.
Last edited by tlk52 : 04-17-2012 at 08:19 PM.
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04-18-2012, 09:23 AM
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#15
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Location: Crownsville, Md
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 42
Offline
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Robert Coons wrote:
...he claimed to have beaten Han Muxia.
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??
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04-18-2012, 11:37 AM
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#16
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Robert Coons wrote:
Also, Hong Junsheng's student, Li Enjiu beat one of the top sanda fighters in mainland China.
It was very interesting to learn that the majority of the big names in North America are not heard of or even considered to have any skills on the mainland. Overall, the taiji practice in the states is much lower than the mainland as well.
Having been exposed to some very serious lineages of taiji, xinyi, and xingyi all over China, i have to say, there is not a single person in the United states who really has top level taiji skills (at least not who teaches in public). Although I would put my money on Tim Cartmell being able to beat the vast majority of Chinese martial arts people. American teachers tend to focus much more on certain small parts of training and tend to miss the big picture.
At the same time, CC Chen is the best at the Zheng Manqing style. There is no one else in that style I would rather learn from (if we consider Peter as his own style).
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It was Li Enjiu's student who beat one of the top PRC sanda fighters, not Li Enjiu.
Here are Li and several other of your "famous name" Chinese taiji teachers testing each other back in 1992:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4T4r_TDvmI
Can you point out any moments of "really top level taiji skills" in this gathering of PRC masters?
Here is the son of another famous name entwined with a "grappler" of unknown experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
Can you point out any moments of "really top level taiji skills" in this video? You certainly can borrow ideas from others--this clip has been discussed a lot online. I'd be interested in your observations based on your taiji experience.
Your statement about taiji in the United States is telling in its sweeping ignorance. You clearly don't have much experience with top-level taiji people in the US. That would be like me saying that Canada doesn't have a single person who really has top level taiji skills, and ignoring Chen Zhonghua or your teacher Yang Hai.
That a North American teacher is not heard of in the PRC does not equate with them not having top-level taiji skills. Most of the very good PRC taiji practitioners I met have not been heard of in North America. So?
Finally, the "big names in taiji" like Chen Xiaowang, Wang Haijun, et al. spend as much or more time outside of China, including the US, as they do in China. For CXW and his seniors like Feng Zhiqiang, in fact, it was the high level of interest (and dollars) from foreigners that probably saved any semblance of martial taiji in the PRC. The government recognized a good potential source of revenue when it saw that interest. And that interest showed in the lament of many top Chinese teachers at not being able to find Chinese students that showed the same dedication to taiji training that many of their better foreign (including North American) students did.
I'd suggest you get around in the US and put in as much time and effort as you did in Shanghai and other places. It might open your eyes a bit.
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04-18-2012, 12:37 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
It was Li Enjiu's student who beat one of the top PRC sanda fighters, not Li Enjiu.
Here are Li and several other of your "famous name" Chinese taiji teachers testing each other back in 1992:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4T4r_TDvmI
Can you point out any moments of "really top level taiji skills" in this gathering of PRC masters?
Here is the son of another famous name entwined with a "grappler" of unknown experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
Can you point out any moments of "really top level taiji skills" in this video? You certainly can borrow ideas from others--this clip has been discussed a lot online. I'd be interested in your observations based on your taiji experience.
Your statement about taiji in the United States is telling in its sweeping ignorance. You clearly don't have much experience with top-level taiji people in the US. That would be like me saying that Canada doesn't have a single person who really has top level taiji skills, and ignoring Chen Zhonghua or your teacher Yang Hai.
That a North American teacher is not heard of in the PRC does not equate with them not having top-level taiji skills. Most of the very good PRC taiji practitioners I met have not been heard of in North America. So?
Finally, the "big names in taiji" like Chen Xiaowang, Wang Haijun, et al. spend as much or more time outside of China, including the US, as they do in China. For CXW and his seniors like Feng Zhiqiang, in fact, it was the high level of interest (and dollars) from foreigners that probably saved any semblance of martial taiji in the PRC. The government recognized a good potential source of revenue when it saw that interest. And that interest showed in the lament of many top Chinese teachers at not being able to find Chinese students that showed the same dedication to taiji training that many of their better foreign (including North American) students did.
I'd suggest you get around in the US and put in as much time and effort as you did in Shanghai and other places. It might open your eyes a bit.
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I am sorry to link this, but it is obligatory, really, mandatory at this point:
Inquire within
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04-18-2012, 01:23 PM
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#18
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
I am sorry to link this, but it is obligatory, really, mandatory at this point:
Inquire within
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Your algorithm neglects what to do with the flying fur, or how to properly respond to the "pfffttts" and "rrowrrs".
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04-21-2012, 06:01 PM
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#19
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Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
I think William Chen would be a good place to start, he will certainly put you in the right direction. And if you choose in the future you can always explore/meet/feel other people from different lineages and see how they compare.
One think i would suggest, and this is just from my personal experience and opinion, don't get tied to the form only think of it as a vehicle to develop the taiji body (aiki body), nothing more. Yes there are techniques throughout the form but don't become a slave to them.
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04-21-2012, 06:20 PM
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#20
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Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote:
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at 5:30...are those eyebrows real on that guy? Looks like two caterpillars crawling across his face!
In regard to WCCC's idea of internal power, i think it is right, it is not mystical it is not balls or qi or any other hocus pocus. It is something that anyone can learn and train physically if they so choose to, it requires patience and trust that training in the right way will produce the results desired. I personally don't talk about qi nor has my teacher here in China, or any other people i have met.
The practice of the form can be immensely enjoyable in and of itself. Well it is to me anyway!
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04-22-2012, 07:22 PM
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#21
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
"The practice of the form can be immensely enjoyable in and of itself."
I feel that way too, the sensation in the body when doing the form feels wonderful.
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05-02-2012, 06:30 AM
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#22
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Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
Offline
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Re: Internal power in tai chi chuan
here's a rare video of WCC Chen teaching in a light sparring session circa 1984
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x0g51PwIUg
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