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Old 01-18-2007, 10:55 AM   #101
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The power that I have learned to generate is far more about manipulations of centering and extension per what I have learned primarily in Saito's and Saotome's lineage than the "spring" potentials that Mike speaks of.
Cool. So we've all looked at the videos of Ueshiba and Master Sum bouncing an Uke away. It's a common demonstration in Asian martial arts. I can do it in a fairly offhand manner. I know how to do it. It's on film that Ueshiba is doing it in Aikido, even though you insist it can't be done in Aikido because it is "resistance". Uke is bounced away in a spring-like way. You're talking about "manipulation of centering" and "extension". How do you explain, given that it's right there on film, that your descriptions don't have anything to do with what Ueshiba and Master Sum are doing?

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Old 01-18-2007, 11:16 AM   #102
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote:
So now you're going to confuse my discussion about learning basics with doing this thing Raul is talking about. But notice... I didn't suggest any such thing.
Really??? You were fairly clear about grounding to the back foot in direct opposition to the incoming force -- contradicting what Shioda illustrated and what Saito teaches when you contend that the back foot should be grounding the force, several times, in fact:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, so taking a push into the chest ... Make sure the weight is fully on the back leg. A lot of Aikido people like to put the weight near the front foot and use the back leg as a "brace", but technically this is not a good way to develop central-balance. So the weight is over the back leg for this training exercise and the lower back *must* be relaxed ... he idea is to let the push to the chest compress Nage into the back leg... OK, so the idea is to let the push be held by the back leg/foot and keep the lower back relaxed.
... In fact, 100% of the push should be going into the ground at the back foot ... ... the ground flowing as purely as possible from the back foot to Uke's hand.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=36
It is impossible to enter/turn around the push when the back leg has 100% of the force grounded out. Your only option is a direct push - up and out. Your exercise disables irimi/tenkan. How is that helpful to aikido?
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Mike Sigman wrote:
... the problem is that you're teaching people this stuff you're making up.
Stick and stones, Mike. Find a useful argument with some support next time.

Not making up anything. Take issue with Shioda or Saito,if you don't like the statement of the primacy of centering or irimi/tenkan priniciples they have taught. Ron does not differ in his understanding on the same point of the centering power being on the front or irimi side -- from a wholly different lineage. I am applying what I was taught, and I teach what I was taught, which is aikido. I apply mechanics to further comprehend the fundamentals of it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:27 AM   #103
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ron does not differ in his understanding on the same point of the centering power being on the front or irimi side -- from a wholly different lineage. I am applying what I was taught, and I teach what I was taught, which is aikido. I apply mechanics to further comprehend the fundamentals of it.
Whoa...wait a minute. If you have an issue with Mike, leave me out of it...go with your own thoughts there, please. I know plenty of high ranked instructors in various lineages that keep the weight back in aikido...I was just discussing Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:46 AM   #104
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Really??? You were fairly clear about grounding to the back foot in direct opposition to the incoming force -- contradicting what Shioda illustrated and what Saito teaches when you contend that the back foot should be grounding the force, several times, in fact:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, so taking a push into the chest ... Make sure the weight is fully on the back leg. A lot of Aikido people like to put the weight near the front foot and use the back leg as a "brace", but technically this is not a good way to develop central-balance. So the weight is over the back leg for this training exercise and the lower back *must* be relaxed ... he idea is to let the push to the chest compress Nage into the back leg... OK, so the idea is to let the push be held by the back leg/foot and keep the lower back relaxed.
In fact, 100% of the push should be going into the ground at the back foot ... ... the ground flowing as purely as possible from the back foot to Uke's hand.
Read it again, Erick. I stated the above as a training exercise on the road to being able to sustain a push to the chest when the feet are more or less parallel (a "natural stance"). You're stating that somehow I'm "contradicting Shioda" in something quite different. OK, I've pointed it out twice now. Do you get the point?

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:48 AM   #105
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

For what it's worth Mike, what you are saying seems perfectly clear to me, and I have no issues with it whatsoever.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-18-2007, 01:26 PM   #106
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ron Tisdale wrote:
Whoa...wait a minute. If you have an issue with Mike, leave me out of it...go with your own thoughts there, please.
I am simply pointing out that Mike's contetnion that my opinions on the front (irmir) leg centering are somehow outlandish is contradicted without even departing the thread. I do not mean to put words in your mouth or suggest, in any way, your support for anything else I may address that you have not expressly agreed with.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I know plenty of high ranked instructors in various lineages that keep the weight back in aikido...I was just discussing Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan.
But, given my example of a rear irimi leg centering in at least one technique, do they really differ if you consider where the readiness for the irimi is focussed at a given point? Each initial choice of kamae (hanmi or squared-front) in movement typically passes through the other at some point of most techniques. The choice of a starting position may simply be an arbitrary training choice for consistency sake. Degrees of emphasis for training purposes more than anything, I think.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:37 PM   #107
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

a) understood, and thanks.

b) quite possibly. But as I said earlier, these things are often more complicated than the quick (cough) treatment given here. And a whole other discussion would be training methods to build a particular skill set, and then how that skill set is integrated into the total martial package.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:41 PM   #108
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Read it again, Erick. I stated the above as a training exercise on the road to being able to sustain a push to the chest when the feet are more or less parallel (a "natural stance"). You're stating that somehow I'm "contradicting Shioda" in something quite different. OK, I've pointed it out twice now. Do you get the point?
Rather than criticise further let me pose a question. Since in a "natural" parallel stance, the feet are carried directly under the body there is no "back leg" --- What are you talking about?

To make clear my position, in a natural parallel stance, with the feet underneath me and a centerline chest push I turn into and enter toward the pusher with weight on the ball of the big toe of the foot on the hip that is entering, as Shioda and Saito seem to suggest. The push is not making direct connection with my center, and I do not have to "ground" any force other than my own weight.

You seem to suggest that you would weight the foot on the side that is turning way from the push, to "ground it" or not turn at all, in which case there is no "back leg" at all, and you are directly connecting your center to oppose his force with the ground resistance. Have I got it as you intend it?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:43 PM   #109
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote:
I am simply pointing out that Mike's contetnion that my opinions on the front (irmir) leg centering are somehow outlandish is contradicted without even departing the thread.
Except I have not voiced any opinions about front leg centering at all. I simply said that for training, it is better to learn how to acquire jin/kokyu by starting with the back leg. Your comments on *technique* are once again off the issue of the basic skills training. If you knew how to do these basic skills of Aikido, you wouldn't be constantly missing the point, Erick.... all this stuff would be obvious and you wouldn't be trying to make such and issue when there is no issue.

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Old 01-18-2007, 01:50 PM   #110
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote:
Rather than criticise further let me pose a question. Since in a "natural" parallel stance, the feet are carried directly under the body there is no "back leg" --- What are you talking about?
Erick.... you simply do not have any idea what we're talking about. GO SEE SOMEONE WHO CAN SHOW YOU.
Quote:
To make clear my position, in a natural parallel stance, with the feet underneath me and a centerline chest push I turn into and enter toward the pusher with weight on the ball of the big toe of the foot on the hip that is entering, as Shioda and Saito seem to suggest. The push is not making direct connection with my center, and I do not have to "ground" any force other than my own weight.
Because you have no idea what we're talking about, you repeatedly try to substitute our discussions about basic kokyu/jin with commentary about technique. I don't know in how many threads I've repeatedly stated that we are NOT talking about techniques, but about how to build up the core strengths that are needed in order to do Aikido correctly, as opposed to using normal muscular strength.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:52 PM   #111
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ron Tisdale wrote:
a) understood, and thanks.

b) quite possibly. But as I said earlier, these things are often more complicated than the quick (cough) treatment given here. And a whole other discussion would be training methods to build a particular skill set, and then how that skill set is integrated into the total martial package.
Resistance is the stubborn thing that I had beaten out me with some loving care, to my eternal gratitude in performance of technique. Bernice Sensei did it gently; and short though my time with Chiba Sensei was -- not so much ... And he had mellowed, by all reports. I deeply appreciated the opportunity to learn not to resist Chiba Sensei, and most especially he helped to improve my kokyu tanden ho for that reason, which is basically in the neighborhood of what we are discussing.

I find it very problematic (as you said, earlier) that there is a strong element of resistance in this training regimen, which when posited in a sense of "basics" is, was and remains very troubling to see advocated as a foundation in aikido.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-18-2007, 02:00 PM   #112
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'm jealous of the time you spent with those teachers, even though I'm quite happy with my time spent with my own.

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I find it very problematic (as you said, earlier) that there is a strong element of resistance in this training regimen, which when posited in a sense of "basics" is, was and remains very troubling to see advocated as a foundation in aikido.
I'm sorry...I don't quite remember saying that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory? I do things in keiko in Doshinkan Aikido that I would not do in a purely martial encounter. Our training has quite a number of wrist grabs, for instance...but my teacher's very words about a martial encounter were "never let anyone grab you". In Daito ryu and Aikido, we practice ushiro waza. I'm sure neither you nor I are about to let any attacker behind us...period.

Keiko is one thing...Tanren is another...fighting yet a third thing...Aikido may or may not contain various portions of these or other things...depending on what floats your particular boat. That's without even mentioning our teachers' boats...

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-18-2007, 02:31 PM   #113
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Re: Baseline skillset

Erick, just for the fun of it, here is the Master Sum demo again. It's a somewhat more polished version that the quite old Ueshiba was doing in another video clip, but it's the same thing. It's the physical skill of the body we're looking at, not the technique per se. How do you account for Sum (and Ueshiba) bouncing people away in a "springlike" manner, using your rotational movement theory?

http://homepage.mac.com/thewayofyiqu...Theater24.html

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Old 01-18-2007, 02:34 PM   #114
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Your comments on *technique* are once again off the issue of the basic skills training.
Irimi/tenkan, is a principle of tai sabaki (body movement) -- not a technique, according to Saotome Shihan. Argue with him if you feel that irimi/tenkan is NOT in the basic skillset of aikido. Ikeda Shihan is pretty close to you out there, ask him. He does irimi tenkan practice fairly routinely in seminars, and from my reports as fairly regular dojo training. I know he can drop me and anybody I have practiced with kokyu tanden ho and barely twitching to do it. While I do this tolerably well, I can but faintly dream of developing that principle of action to that degree.
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Mike Sigman wrote:
If you knew how to do these basic skills of Aikido, you wouldn't be constantly missing the point, Erick.... all this stuff would be obvious and you wouldn't be trying to make such and issue when there is no issue.
Predictably, I find things in the body of mainstream Aikido teaching that contradict your pet project and you call me names rather than try to explain the contradictions. Quit the playground sniping, Mike, and address the issue. Resistance. It is my only real issue with you, and it is also consistent throughout all of your threads on these topics. Your stated training regimen consistently relies on it.

Aikido "absolutely" does not. I have learned to do it that way, have done it successfully, teach it that way with moderate success and the supprot of MY teacher, and had it done to me since I started this road. And I know this also because the Founder put it in those terms "We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker."

What you are advocating involves resistance as a first premise and it is very problematic as training for aikido.

How do you reconcile that in regards to aikido, not as you wish to reconstruct it, but as it is?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:01 PM   #115
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Erick Mead wrote:
Irimi/tenkan, is a principle of tai sabaki (body movement) -- not a technique,
Tai sabaki can be done with or without ki-skills, just as a Tai Chi form can be done with or without qi-skills. You're still confusing the tactics and strategies of Aikido with the basic, core movement skills called "ki". Tai Chi (Taiji) without qi skills is not really Tai Chi. Aikido without the ki skills, those "baseline" skills we're discussing in this thread, is not Aikido. You can find reference to this sentiment/judgement in many places and in a number of the interviews on Aikido Journal. As Ushiro Sensei bluntly put it (you know, the teacher Ikeda is bringing in to shed light on these baseline skills???), "No kokyu, no Aikido."
Quote:
Argue with him if you feel that irimi/tenkan is NOT in the basic skillset of aikido.
No one has said Tenkan is not a basic tactic of Aikido... it is simply not that core skillset that is in *every* movement of Aikido. The baseline skillset we're talking about is in *every* movement of Aikido at *all times*.
Quote:
Resistance. It is my only real issue with you, and it is also consistent throughout all of your threads on these topics. Your stated training regimen consistently relies on it.
This is just foolishness. There are plenty of videos showing Ueshiba and many other shihans showing the correct usage of kokyu/ki power with a static pose. "This is the way correct power should feel". The core strength, the "ki", preceeds the basic tactics and strategies. The tactics and strategies, like Tai Sabaki, Irimi, and others are incorrect if not done with the baseline skills.
Quote:
Aikido "absolutely" does not. I have learned to do it that way, have done it successfully, teach it that way with moderate success and the supprot of MY teacher, and had it done to me since I started this road. And I know this also because the Founder put it in those terms "We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker."
Well, if you think that your missing the point goes unnoticed, more power to you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:56 PM   #116
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Erick, just for the fun of it, here is the Master Sum demo again. ... How do you account for Sum (and Ueshiba) bouncing people away in a "springlike" manner, using your rotational movement theory?

http://homepage.mac.com/thewayofyiqu...Theater24.html
Oooh! Video analysis. I like this game. First of all, I may not have to explain it by that means becasue what he is doing is fairly low energy and he may be doing what you suggest in terms of direct resistance or without much in the way of tenkan principle (which seems so from the video).

I never said that what you are talking about is utter foolishness, or unrelated, just that it does not not seem wise practice in the context of aikido. Irimi/tenkan is inherently rotational -- I just found some mechanics to describe what it does, so far with fair consistency so -- let's see now ...

I can't see his whole body in the first couple cuts since he is cut off at the waist, so I begin with the first cut where he is being pushed from the rear. In this case, the "front" foot for irimi purposes is the one toward the push (from the rear) and it is clear that he shifts the weight in irimi fashion toward that leg nearest the attacking force, and the leg away is clearly lightened almost to the point it comes off the ground. In other words the same Taijuuido weight transfer I described earlier, just going backwards into it, instead of forwards into it. His black clothing makes it impossible to see if or how he turns or disposes his hips in the shift. Tenkan does not seem to be terribly involved, certainly not in the integrated way it combines with the irimi in aikido. Although he does use limb and torso rotations in the vertical plane to generate these forces.

The knee push is a straight forward irimi shift as I described, he just does not follow through. The side hip push is clearly weighting to the irimi side, too.

The single outstretched hand push is an irimi movement and the leg weighting and arm motions seem to be coordinated as I would expect an irimi to be, although with the "front leg" straight on it is hard to guage the shift directly toward the camera with the darkness of his pants.

The front hip push (parallel stance) is more of a sway back and "pop the pelvic bowstring" dynamic. Same with the parallel stance rear hip. If there is a turn on those I cannot see it because of his dark clothing. Definitely rotating the torso and legs in opposed rotation in the vertical plane forward or back at the hips in coordinated fashion That seems directly resistant, however, and does not answer to anything I would recognize as aikido movement. The side knee push is related to these in principle, but again, it too, seems directly resistant.

The double hand pushes are much more like typical kokyu tanden ho, but without any hip preference, the pushes go around his center and cancel one another out so there is no resistance in the way of Master Sum's direct forward entry. I have done this "frontal entry" with kokyu tanden ho both seated and standing also (granted, with far less constrained movement, and more rotary motion of the arms), although my ukes are generally not THAT compliant. But it is a training demo so exagerration of real action is alright to make it more evident.

That's what I see. Everything in the video seems consistent with irmi principle but not with non-resistant application of force. The irimi seems to use the vector offsets that Mike has talked about, so there is a certain component of resistance in all of these. The parallel stance front and rear hip pushes, and the side knee push I would not characterize as related to aikido even on the irimi principle.

All of it seems to have virtually no aspect of tenkan to it, and very little tangential connections to receive forces, except for the double arm push, perhaps. Since I see very little tenkan-type movements (other than that of the arms in the kokyu tanden motions), this does not surprise me. The mechanics that I have worked out would suggest that the tenkan element of the irimi/tenkan principle does the heavy lifting in converting incoming force from one plane or orientation by perpendicular or tangential inputs once a connection is made. Irimi puts one in a place to make or continue that necessary connection.

I would also make the point that Master Sum seems more to be generating force by the weight shifts rather than than using the force applied to him, which is a legitimate distinction between the arts. Generating force is not the same as resisting an incoming force, although it may, of course, be used to do so.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:25 PM   #117
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Re: Baseline skillset

It dawns on me that I can't explicatively tell you where you're missing your guesses on what he's doing, Erick, without being drawn into a needlessly off-topic discussion. I'll say this... it's a lot more complex than you realize. Just try generating appreciable forces (true, his Uke is not a model of resistance, but there are a couple of the bounces that tell you quite clearly Uke's distance was more from Sum's power than anything Uke could have done) like that on your own. In some cases, with the amount of power some of these guys can produce, it isn't just hokey to learn to "hop", particularly if Nage has his hand on your chest. Bones break.

The main point is that I doubt you could come close to generating the amount of power using your weightshifts and turns that simply weren't there. In fact, I know you couldn't. I certainly couldn't and my body is fairly well conditioned. Secondly, without a focused path from the ground that directly connects to Uke's hand, etc., the bounce would be puny indeed.

But let's say, just rhetorically, that Master Sum is somehow deriving his power from imperceptible turns. The smaller the turns, the greater the tensile stress needed to effect reasonable power. That implies some kind of conditioning that is unusually effective. Without the turns, but doing something else (I've already laid out the basics in other posts), there still is the need for some sort of unusual conditioning. The point I'm making is that one of the baseline skillsets we're talking about is the beginning of that type of conditioning (although Aikido never took it as far as Yiquan takes it).

The thing you have to look at (and the reason I used Master Sum's version of the same tricks Ueshiba is doing) is that these are powerful movements yet with almost no substantial movement of the joints. Just "weight shift" won't do it. And BTW, I will say this... the small "weight shifts" are almost side-effects of what he's actually doing, so you're focusing on the wrong thing.

In a way, this "bouncing" is a "ki trick". And voila', Ueshiba used the same ki trick because it exhibits ki strength. Your idea that the bouncing uses 'resistance' and therefore it's not part of Aikido would mean that atemi is not part of Aikido either, because it goes directly into the opponent. Real atemi, BTW, uses the type of power that Ueshiba and Sum are using, not just normal punches. We're just talking about baseline skills, remember, that apply in all movement at all times.

So just from the size of the movements, you can tell that rotation, while it can be stretched to maybe conform to a lot of situations, does not really apply here. Instead of revolving parts in a body (which, granted, are part of many techniques, but we're not talking about techniques and the forces they impart), you need to start thinking of Aikido as being a sphere from which direct forces bounce away and which indirect forces cause to turn... IMO. "Resistance" doesn't apply if things bounce away.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 01-18-2007 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:32 PM   #118
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote:
You're still confusing the tactics and strategies of Aikido with the basic, core movement skills called "ki".
Again with the nominal and substitutionary arguments, instead of addressing the essential core of the art of "aikido" -- "Aikido" -- "Spirit in accord with the Way" -- opposes nothing, but prevails over everything. I could go on -- but you get the point.
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Mike Sigman wrote:
[re: non-resistance] This is just foolishness. There are plenty of videos showing Ueshiba and many other shihans showing the correct usage of kokyu/ki power with a static pose.
Insulting the fact will not make it different. Non-resistance is the name of the game of aikido- I am hardly alone or even remarkable in this assertion. Relatively static or relatively dynamic kihon waza has nothing to do with non-resistance. Master Sum was not static, his dynamics were simply very small.
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Mike Sigman wrote:
"No kokyu, no Aikido."
Yah. So? No air -- no aeroplanes.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No one has said Tenkan is not a basic tactic of Aikido... it is simply not that core skillset that is in *every* movement of Aikido.
Not tactic. That is your mistake. Irimi/tenkan is one principle of ki that is expressed in body movement -- extension and centering, entering and turning. The spiral magatama jewel is its image.

Musubi is a priniciple of ki that is expressed in joining things and moments together as one. The sacred mirror is its image.

Kokyu is a principle of ki that is expressed in differentiating space, positive and negative, and cutting the passage of the present into "now" and "then" . It is the sword that kills or saves --

And there we are back to irimi/tenkan again.

Ki is a varied and many splendored thing, and everthing that exists has the measure and quality of ki that is proper to it. The ki of the mouse is not the same as the ki of the elephant -- although the principles of its operation are the same in their respective contexts. Ki does not exist in a vacuum but in a concrete context.

Opposition is not the ki, the spirit, of aikido. It is not "Aikido" the "Spirit in accord with the Way" in a larger sense either. There are lots of other schools of thought in China, so this is not by any means meant to be a demeaning statement on principled oppositional approahces. Opposition may be an aspect of the ki of yiquan, and on that I defer wholeheartedly, if that is your position.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:03 PM   #119
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

I have to say, Erick, that it does appear to me that you are in fact confusing the requirements of good waza (don't "resist") with the principles behind the exercises to build up ki/kokyu. In my own dojo, we do quite a bit of push exercises and "power walking," which we absorbed from a student of Yamaguchi shihan (ie, Saotome's own first teacher). In these exercises, the point is exactly as Mike S says: to send the force of uke on a path to the ground. In the process of learning this baseline skill, one builds up that involve a stronger center and new connections inside the body (the psoas muscle apparently plays a big role). At the higher level—which we haven't arrived at, but which this shihan, Shingo Nakao, demonstrated to our teacher—a kneeling tori can absorb a shove to the chest by a lunging uke and just....wait for it....bounce him away. So what Mike is saying makes sense to me. FWIW
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:08 PM   #120
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I think it would be worthwhile noting that the baseline skills under discussion are basic body mechanics which are common to a number of SE Asian MAs. IMO, any discussion relating to principles, techniques, or tactics, i.e. irimi/tenkan, ki musubi, non-resistance, rotational dynamics etc. etc. is way off-base and is completely unproductive to the discussion. The reason being, these baseline skills are the basis for ALL techniques (which embody THE principles) - and which enable irimi/tenkan, ki musubi, non-resistance etc. etc. etc. TO BE PERFORMED CORRECTLY.

To wit, part of this discussion will entail basic exercises for people to get their "foot in the door" to these baseline skills. As such, it should be noted that these exercises are only for illustrative purposes. Once you understand the central concept of these exercises, ALL aikido (or for that matter, karate, jujitsu, taiji, yichuan, bagua etc. etc.) techniques can be viewed as an extension or application of these baseline skills.

BTW, Here's a much better video demo of bounce jin - I believe they are the same baseline skills currently under discussion, but far more sophisticated in usage than what would be considered "baseline" - for the purposes of this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM...elated&search=

PS: This thread made Brian Kagen's Pick for Jan 16th on AikidoJournal...

Ignatius
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:36 AM   #121
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
At the higher level, a kneeling tori can absorb a shove to the chest by a lunging uke and just....bounce him away.
Raul, I would hesitate to say that this is a "high level" skill, BUT there are varying degrees to which people can start to develop and utilize this ability, because it is based on base level skills.

FWIW, one of my ex-students who had been training with me for a year and a half, admittedly only intermittently and at most twice a week, was able to do this to some degree. On a much larger and heavier uke, it requires far more skill...

The point is, the basic concept is simple to teach and once you understand the basic concept it's not hard - but it requires A LOT of practice.

Ignatius
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:34 AM   #122
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
requirements of good waza (don't "resist") [versus] the principles behind the exercises to build up ki/kokyu.
I have never found there to be any discrepancy between them. Certainly not one that called for training that resists force. I have only ever wanted Mike to explain how to reconcile force resistance inherent in "bouncing" energy off the ground with aikido's inherent prinicple of non-resistance.

You do what you train to do. Training for resistance in Aikido is antithetical to its fundamental purpose and prinicples. That does not mean there is no force involved in the interaction.

I have personally struggled to eliminate my native resistance, at first veering toward sheer avoidance of force, wrongly, as Mike properly criticizes in some aikido training that is out there (but wrongly assumes that I do) to, finally, connected non-resistance, which has been my considered model of training since I left Hawaii. I blame it on the beer after practice.

Shioda's chosen kihon dosa, in my limited understanding, have that precise point, that these principles are in the waza. The care in performance of the shape of kihon waza in Iwama practice which I know far better, was of a similar vein.
Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
... In these exercises, the point is exactly as Mike S says: to send the force of uke on a path to the ground.
There are two routes available to you without resisting his force. You can also just as easily send the force of uke on a path to Heaven as to Earth and that energy is equally spent in the process. The kihon of the various systems all have these principles within them, if one is mindful and attentive to what is happening when you do them.

A wave is a translated rotation (irimi/tenkan).

Ever watch two dissimilar sized waves intersect in opposite directions? The smaller wave peak causes the larger wave peak to rise upward (ten) and break prematurely, while the smaller wave disappears from view for a moment and then passes on through hardly disturbed.

There is the visual sense of some sort of rebound force that "forces" the larger wave to suddenly rise up and break (like it had been "bounced" off the planet). And notably this occurs when the smaller wave is. momentarily, no longer apparent. But it is not a resistant spring rebounding from one against the other. It is really a joining of inherent form and energy together. The substance of the two waves are literally identical (ki-musubi) at the time of intersection, only their forms of motion are differnent.

Even though they are opposed in direction -- irimi/ tenkan principles allow the smaller to so exalt the greater that it moves beyond its capacity to maintain control. This sort of interaction is done all the time in kokyu tanden ho exercise.

Conversely, if the trough of the smaller wave hits the peak of the larger as it begins to break (attack), the peak of the larger wave drops down (chi=earth) and the incipient break or attack is snuffed out almost instantly, like it fell into a hole in the earth. Its energy evaporates upon contact. Both waves are resting their weight on the earth -- neither one is crushing the other by resisting against the supporting earth.

Do both -- ten-chi -- at the appropriate time. Neither one is resistant.

Mike is focussed on the ground, and in a mode of weight bearing different (i.e.- resistant) than that suggested by Shioda's explanation of chushin principle by centering on the big toe. Ground is not the only principle in play, nor do its uses require training that involves resistance to force.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:43 AM   #123
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
At the higher level, a kneeling tori can absorb a shove to the chest by a lunging uke and just....bounce him away.
Raul, I would hesitate to say that this is a "high level" skill, BUT there are varying degrees to which people can start to develop and utilize this ability, because it is based on base level skills.[snip]
The point is, the basic concept is simple to teach and once you understand the basic concept it's not hard - but it requires A LOT of practice.
I've tried to say there are "levels and gradations" of these skills, but the 'bounce' things are probably a good case in point. It's pretty easy to teach someone to bounce someone away, once they get even a coarse grasp of jin skill. However, there are all sorts of interesting little add-ons that can go in a bounce and there is a level of conditioning that allows someone to go from a very simple mechanical bounce with obvious forces lined up to an almost imperceptible type of force in which you can't see an obvious line-up.

As an aside, while the bounce jin can be trained as a nice demo trick, the basic power is still the power that you would use in an atemi and a kokyu throw, so this really isn't a meaningless tangent that has nothing to do with Aikido.

Remember that each joint robs a little power, so the power of a push with the shoulder is going to be stronger than a push with the hand because with a push at the hand your wrist, elbow, and shoulder-joint provide slight force losses, depending upon your conditioning. Similarly, a bounce from the torso or leg has some advantage because the losses through the joints are small.

In the case of the old Bagua man in Ignatius' clip, his arms are bent and he's still generating a certain amount of force (how much, I really can't decided... obviously the people around him are deferring to him, so all I can say is that he's generating a surprising amount of force for someone in his 90's).

His force is very high... what they would call "Hua Jing", or "mysterious power". The two levels below it would "An JIng" or "hidden power" and then the lowest form, "Ming Jing" or obvious power. So you see some people do a nice "withdraw and push forward" and even though it may be something a beginner can't do, you can see the mechanics. Ueshiba Sensei was doing it at the "hidden" level, but then again, bear in mind that this type of power is not particularly a specialty of Aikido. But that shouldn't stop anyone from trying to achieve the highest level, should it? Shoot for the moon.... if you only hit the top of the mountain, so what?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:49 AM   #124
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I have only ever wanted Mike to explain how to reconcile force resistance inherent in "bouncing" energy off the ground with aikido's inherent prinicple of non-resistance.
Why won't you explain why O-Sensei is using a "bounce" jin in the video clip and you're telling us that it's not Aikido to do so? Are you the person setting the standards? And I'm saying this for the last time.... a "bounce" is not a "resistance" because it is borrowing the opponent's force. You're trying to literally translate your definition of the English "resistance" in some rigid manner and then hold everyone else to your interpretation. What next? Should we all lay flaccid on the floor in order to meet your personal definition of "relax" and if we don't do it, you'll accuse us of not doing Aikido?

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2007, 07:59 AM   #125
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Raul, I would hesitate to say that this is a "high level" skill,
I didn't say it was the highest level. Just that it was a level higher than we are currently capable of doing. Surely there are many more levels after that. I just wanted to say to Erick that what Mike is talking about, "bounce jin," is something that is within the realm of our experience and its not a fantasy based on some misunderstanding of aikido principles.


best,

RAUL
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