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Old 05-18-2006, 08:56 PM   #276
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Since Chuck Liddell can kick my ass and I value the type of training that he does as being pretty close to the real deal, then I would do whatever Chuck Liddell says to do, and study with those that are like minded and like skilled.
Well, that must mean you value the opinions of a lot of people in this world, then, if you're just going by who can kick your ass.

Kidding, Kevin... just kidding. I've never passed up a good one-liner.
Quote:
Unfortunately, I have not found anyone that can and has demonstrated the ability to hold there own in a field of resistive fighting to make that recommendation so I have not found it to be of value. Again, the day they do, then I will be all over it.
Can anyone point me to that old post where I mentioned the 60 year-old Baji guy who just for the fun of it took a light-hearted challenged from a young european MMA guy with something of a rep? In case you didn't read that URL that I pointed to at the time, Kevin, the Baji guy ducked the initial move by the MMA guy, followed him back and hit him with the well-known Baji body/shoulder-check (which is sort of like a Lincoln Town-Car hitting you)... the MMA guy went down and got up very slowly, bleeding from the nose and maybe the ears... I forget. To generate that kind of hit, they use some of the body skills that are also used in the ki-tests, etc., Kevin. But hey... at this point in time, the funnest thing to do is to hope that you continue to blow it off and never take the time to go look.

Regards.

Mike
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:00 PM   #277
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Alright some video for those that have time to kill

http://www.badongo.com/vid/120586
Nice root and jin. Give him my regards.

Mike
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:11 AM   #278
Brett Charvat
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

After reading through this entire thread (and others like it on other sites), I have a question for anyone who might know the answer. However, I'd like to stress heavily that it is a QUESTION only, and I am not trying to infer that I have any knowledge or experience with this subject matter (because I assuredly do not). So please keep that in mind. It's a question from an interested but inexperienced person seeking a bit of clarification, nothing more. Here goes:

I notice in the video that Mr. John posted of Akuzawa Sensei that the point of contact between the pusher and the pushee (in this case, the palms of the hands) was constantly in motion. I've noticed similar things about the various push-hands video clips that I've seen. Is this a requisite to using this internal power, or is it merely for demonstration/training purposes? If Akuzawa Sensei was standing in the same position shown in the video but with a pusher pushing on his sternum or his pelvis while Akuzawa Sensei held his arms at his sides or behind his back, would he still remain that solid? How about the other guys who do this type of training that have been mentioned on this thread? I'm wondering about the amount of articulation between the pusher's body and that of the pushee, and whether (or not) an increase in articulation improves the ability to remain so solid. Again, please do not misunderstand me. I am not calling anyone's skill into question; merely asking a question that's been on my mind lately.
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:32 AM   #279
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:

I notice in the video that Mr. John posted of Akuzawa Sensei that the point of contact between the pusher and the pushee (in this case, the palms of the hands) was constantly in motion. I've noticed similar things about the various push-hands video clips that I've seen. Is this a requisite to using this internal power, or is it merely for demonstration/training purposes?
Fair question. And to answer it, yes it would be harder for him if you pushed into the Kua/pelvic area. But I've done it, (tried to pull him into guard, by digging my foot into the pelvic area) and it failed spectacularly on my end. It was like pushing into a springy lead wall (i already used the rubber analogy , trying to keep things fresh lol)

The articulation of the limbs is simply a result since he has to redirect the changing forces into his body.

You're not the first one to bring this up though.
It was something that was brought up at the seminar in Paris as well, and one person there kept on saying "see see, he's changing the vectors! etc."
Totally missing the point of course. The movement in the hand isn't done to "reduce" the load, but rather the opposite. It's done to remain connected to the guy (since he's moving around), who then eventually gets tossed out.

Try it yourself and see what happens

PS
One thing I stressed was that he kept his knees locked
This increases the difficulty factor by a large amount.
A lot of similar demos often include guys with bent knees, relaxed posture, and feet not parrallel. Which is much easier.
Basically this kind of demo shows a much more "purer" aspect of what it means to stand, sans other internal mechanics being put into the equation.
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:14 AM   #280
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Good stuff Mike, yea you are correct. To discuss further by me without checking it out is me continuing to be stubborn. Somehow people keep dragging me back in...damn! Must be using that internal chi to affect me some how

Rob,

Footwork, handwork,posture, breathing, balance...trying to connect all these things ...kinda bua gua style. Nothing balistic in nature. Used to do alot of makawara back in the day for the hip, hand, breathing connection...but gave that up. Sometimes jo and bokken stuff.

Lately though lots of ground solo work. Standing up in base, shrimping, rolls, set out drills...more capreiora like (although, if you looked at it you'd laugh as it is NOT capreior) simply transferring weight around various balance points on the ground.

Nothing like what you describe though.
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Old 05-19-2006, 01:41 AM   #281
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Good stuff Mike, yea you are correct. To discuss further by me without checking it out is me continuing to be stubborn. Somehow people keep dragging me back in...damn! Must be using that internal chi to affect me some how

Rob,

Footwork, handwork,posture, breathing, balance...trying to connect all these things ...kinda bua gua style. Nothing balistic in nature. Used to do alot of makawara back in the day for the hip, hand, breathing connection...but gave that up. Sometimes jo and bokken stuff.

Lately though lots of ground solo work. Standing up in base, shrimping, rolls, set out drills...more capreiora like (although, if you looked at it you'd laugh as it is NOT capreior) simply transferring weight around various balance points on the ground.
Sounds like we might have common ground in terms of the aim that we pursue the solo exercises with. It'll be interesting if we can meetup at some point

As far as exercises looking weird, that's a given. Half the time when I'm bustin my ass on exercises connecting the upper and lower body, people give me weird looks in the park. Looks like I'm sweatin' to the Sun god or sumtn lolz
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:13 AM   #282
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
I notice in the video that Mr. John posted of Akuzawa Sensei that the point of contact between the pusher and the pushee (in this case, the palms of the hands) was constantly in motion. I've noticed similar things about the various push-hands video clips that I've seen. Is this a requisite to using this internal power, or is it merely for demonstration/training purposes? If Akuzawa Sensei was standing in the same position shown in the video but with a pusher pushing on his sternum or his pelvis while Akuzawa Sensei held his arms at his sides or behind his back, would he still remain that solid?
I don't necessarily train like this per se, Brett, although occasionally I've done it for fun or as a variation, just for something to do.

The basic principle is practicing manipulating the ground-path against an opponent, keeping him always pushing against the ground and, in the best case scenario, letting him help push himself away because you maneuver the ground (either mentally or physically) so that it is somewhat below the line of his push.... any push by him at that point is automatically a push by him against the ground and pushes him away. Here's a diagram of the 2 main scenarios:

http://www.neijia.com/GettingUnder.jpg

Tohei uses that same principle in very many of the "ki tests" that he shows:
http://www.neijia.com/Tohei-2.jpg
He always keeps his opponent's force turned into the ground path so the ground is doing the work.

If you think about it for a second, the way this stuff is standardly practiced is simply in Kokyu-ho:

http://www.neijia.com/KokyuHoVectors.jpg

In Ark's case, he opts to move and recover whenever he feels he may be in an unteneble position. Another option (the one I prefer since it makes it harder to do and therefore a good option) is to not move my hands and to simply see how rapidly I can train my mind/body responses to react to changing forces:

http://www.neijia.com/ArkPush-2a.jpg
http://www.neijia.com/ArkPush-3a.jpg

Note that in the ArkPush-3a that he moved his hand so they were almost exactly in line between his point of stability and power (his hara) and the exact direction in which he wanted to push, the very direction in which Uke's push would most add to the "push away".

In terms of someone pushing directly against your chest. Try it yourself. Don't lean into the push (i.e., if Uke were to suddenly remove his hand, would you fall over? Tsk Tsk). Don't put one foot/leg behind you as a "brace" (learn to develop this skill/path, not just some one-directional brace). Pretend his hand against your sternum is really your shoulder and that his shoulder is really your hand.

Martially, what use is this? If I can mentally place the ground **OR ANOTHER FORCE VECTOR** so that it combines with Uke's original force, I can manipulate him using his own forces. For want of a better term, let's call that "Aiki" and see if we can figure any martial usages for it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:33 AM   #283
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Robert,
Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I assume you've already seen the other videos of him on youtube
Yes, I did. Very interesting. I especially liked his kicks to the legs.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I do have another video up which might be more interesting for those who know what they're looking at.
It's a vid of Ark "resisting" a push by two people(although he's not really resisting), while he stands feet parrallel, knees locked, hands extended.
The direction he's being pushed in "should" physically be the direction he's weakest in, but he doesn't get pushed over(Remember, he's got his knees locked, feet shoulder width, and parrellel).
Anyways if people are interested, I'll see if I can't edit out the boring bits and post it.
Would you please post this on YouTube? I'm not able to access the Badongo site from work. Thanks!

Jim
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:05 AM   #284
Brad Darr
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike,
Curious about your last post I searched in the forums under the word baji. I found the link and read the story. I was amazed at first but at the bottom of the story written in 2004, there is a footnote from last June that says that the article was all fake and none of it actually occured. Here is your original link copied,
http://crane.50megs.com/index6ze.htm
Read it for yourself but it basically states that the article was written by this guy Zhu.
Check it out.

All the best
Brad

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no one knows which is which
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:17 AM   #285
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Reading the thread, I do not see the two main views on opposite sides here - not really. I think this is Kevin's point - something he's said many times. If anything, I would say the discussion is really a matter of balance. On that note, no one cannot deny the significance of kokyu development, and I do not think anyone is. On the other hand, it is in my opinion equally important to note all the other factors that go into martial applications (be that sport or street). From this second perspective, I think there is a point to Kevin's examples and I do not necessarily feel "lost knowledge," "inferior training," etc., answer it. However, this is not to say that such things are not related to the loss of kokyu development techniques/practices.

In other words, in some martial traditions, even in Aikido, there are martial tactics that function as designed (i.e. effectively) that either makes no use of kokyu or only negligible use. These tactics are age-old, and for reasons related to economics and advances in technology, etc., they have come to prominence in our modern era (for better or for worse). What I feel is important to remember is that such tactics are not new, and that though such tactics found assistance in economics and/or technological advances, etc., such tactics are not by default "inferior" and/or present today solely because of a loss of knowledge. There is an effectiveness to them and they have their place -- especially when facing superior kokyu development -- and this effectiveness also has a lot to do with why they are still around and now dominant in terms of popular understanding and application.

That said, if Aikido is shy of what it should and could be (at a general level), it is because of ignorance regarding both of these types of tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aovZKxdnpJM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...58887413654428

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:22 AM   #286
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Brad Darr wrote:
there is a footnote from last June that says that the article was all fake and none of it actually occured.
Oh well, I was victimized too. It sounded pretty good, but it read, to my eyes, a little too glorious and pompous, so there ya go.

I read another story somewhere, also about a Baji practitioner, but my problem is that I read these things and they get lost in the blur. If I find something more credible, I'll try to post it. The point I was trying to make to Kevin is that the world didn't suddenly discover very powerful fighting in the last 20 years... it's been around a while. What happens to most of us in the West is that we've been going through this cycle of martial arts, starting with "Judo is invincible", to "karate", to "kung fu", to "BJJ", etc., and at each stage we think we've hit on the ulimate martial art. Some of the stuff from the Tang and Ming Dynasties was a full-time devotion to tremendous strength, grappling, strikes, tearing flesh from bones, etc., and I just somehow don't think that MMA can really claim to be the top martial art the world has ever developed.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:34 AM   #287
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
....In other words, in some martial traditions, even in Aikido, there are martial tactics that function as designed (i.e. effectively) that either makes no use of kokyu or only negligible use.
Can you name a physical tactic or technique that makes no use of kokyu power in Aikido?

Incidentally, in terms of the Akebono clips, I think it's sad to see an old, out of shape western boxer trying to make a few bucks by fighting a kangaroo or entering a MMA contest or working in a carnival as a barker. I don't particularly enjoy seeing way-past-their-prime fighters entering fights they were never trained for (Akebono with boxing gloves?????) and then getting humiliated when they run out of steam, etc.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:27 AM   #288
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I'm not sure he was humiliated when he ran out of steam...count the leg kicks in the first vid. I've seen lesser men downed in one round by two or three of those. The fight would have been shorter if the kickboxer simply did those kicks, and not any other kicks or knees. Especially the silly jumping ones...

And fighting a Gracie is fighting a Gracie...no matter how you slice it. Tough game.

Best,
Ron (none of this invalidates your points about kokyu or jin...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-19-2006, 11:26 AM   #289
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

David Valadez writes
Reading the thread, I do not see the two main views on opposite sides here - not really. I think this is Kevin's point - something he's said many times. If anything, I would say the discussion is really a matter of balance.

My only argument with Kevin is that I have been saying this same thing from waaay back in thread.
Its a question of balance between the two; Internal training and then martial skills. I even cited MMA as the method I use to test them in. Then Rob joined in to say the same thing as well.
So, over and over I've made the same point, that they most certainly enhance martial valididty in the real world. NOT, dare I repeat? NOT just as an exercise. I will leave out personal anectdotes. No sense in repeating the plethera of openings that these skills can create in a MMA format, for throws or reversals or the power for close-in strikes and kicks. Done it, do it, trained men to do it for years. I'm just not going to repeat it any more.


On that note, no one cannot deny the significance of kokyu development, and I do not think anyone is.

If you say so.......Many here are in fact specifically denying the significance for any real world application. It is my view that they are doing so because they do not know them to any depth. Anything else defies logic. You cannot know them-in any real measurable sense -and then not recognize the value. You simply wouldn't.

In other words, in some martial traditions, even in Aikido, there are martial tactics that function as designed (i.e. effectively) that either makes no use of kokyu or only negligible use.

Where we would dissagree I think is that most of the external arts have more in their arsenal for fighting: Kicks, myriad strikes, knees, elbows, chokes, throws using the legs more offensively (and defensively) and more extensive ground skills.
Since most Aikido, is bereft of those things It is my -unpopular- view that it is not as effective as it can be as a fighting art.
That said I think Kokyu skills and every single internal skill being discussed here ....is..... the basis of all Aikido.
In that sense I have agrued FOR aikido as well. That many pieces are in fact THERE and could be enhanced if they were explored. I have had the few Aikidoka I have showed some things too agree.
But even Rob and Ark I have had epople say the exerciese were too hard and they didnlt do the solo work. A couple of them wrote me and said the same thing. We can see the power there but the exercises are painfull and to demanding so I am only incorporating a few things. And so it goes......


These tactics are age-old, and for reasons related to economics and advances in technology, etc., they have come to prominence in our modern era (for better or for worse). What I feel is important to remember is that such tactics are not new, and that though such tactics found assistance in economics and/or technological advances, etc., such tactics are not by default "inferior" and/or present today solely because of a loss of knowledge. There is an effectiveness to them and they have their place -- especially when facing superior kokyu development -- and this effectiveness also has a lot to do with why they are still around and now dominant in terms of popular understanding and application.

Thats been the thrust of much of my argument. I think they were/are more highly developed in China, they are old, and they are most certainly on the wain.
I have argued that;
1. Most in Aikido would LOVE them not despise them and could make good use of them.
2. That they are in the hands of some in Aikido who did not share too much...like everywhere else.
3. That Ueshiba got it from Takeda and didn't pass it on too many in the system

That said, if Aikido is shy of what it should and could be (at a general level), it is because of ignorance regarding both of these types of tactics.

Hmm.....I have been saying this for years. It most certainly can use a greater emphasis on these skills....

As for old skills- I am finding with my new CMA friends that these skills were withheld from many there as well. I picked up many things from two styles of DR. But am very much enjoying learning new skills from CMA as well, to place in to what I do in MMA. With no Chinese or Japanese prejudice or "BTDT." Or "I already knew that" Egocentric nonsense that leaves people bitter.
Internal skills are internal skills. Where you picked them up is secondary (as long as we give proper credit) to your personal growth. People just need to find teachers, or those who know some things who are willing to teach. Which is not an easy task.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-19-2006 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:30 PM   #290
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Dan,

My apologies then if it looked liked I was countering your position - it was not my intention. I see, as you say, I'm saying only what you already said/we are saying the same thing.

Hi Mike,

I would have to say that Akebono was far from tired-out in the Gracie match. There, he just got beat in my opinion. Perhaps there was some exhaustion in the other video - but a knock out is often just a knock out (perhaps this is Ron's point). True, it's not Akebono's sport, but equally true, BJJ worked in text book fashion there (in the Gracie match). This was my point, that this stuff is not ineffective or inferior in and of itself or because it does not develop or require kokyu - that such tactics have their place along other fighting tactics and skills.

Akebono is interesting here for two reasons in my opinion: 1) He's been trained in drills similar to what Akuzawa was demonstrating in the videos linked thus far; 2) He's one huge person - a person whose mass and weight alone can mimic superior kokyu skills (whether he had them or not). How did Gracie deal with it? He got the Omoplata. But how did he get that? Answer: He led Akebono into his guard. On a smaller opponent, if you are good from your back, you can initiate the guard, even grab your opponent into the guard, etc. However, on someone Akebono's size - no can do. What does Gracie do - how did he set up the guard? He led Akebono into it. In a way, he took him down without taking him down. This is a very important tactic to know and be skilled at - especially when fighting against such mass, strength, weight, and/or kokyu - as I'm sure you know. Aikido too holds this tactic as valuable - and for the same reasons/in the same cases. This tactic is not very reliant on kokyu development and/or the architectural elements of kokyu (e.g. ground paths) - in my opinion. In a way, every kihon waza of today's (mainstream) Aikido arsenal can be done both via things like ground paths and via things like leading. I think one can see this being demonstrated by Osensei in the old tapes - even the one where he's a vital stud at the Asahi Shinbun demonstration. He uses both tactics interchangeably and his selection has to do with how much energy/mass his uke is bringing to the attack. Again, with Ron, I do not think this is countering anything you've said regarding the authenticity and significance of cultivating kokyu skills.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:39 PM   #291
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I'm sorry I even acknowledged the Akebono tangent. This forum, like so many others, goes off the point rather quickly.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-19-2006, 06:32 PM   #292
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:

Akebono is interesting here for two reasons in my opinion: 1) He's been trained in drills similar to what Akuzawa was demonstrating in the videos linked thus far; 2) He's one huge person - a person whose mass and weight alone can mimic superior kokyu skills (whether he had them or not).
About your two points
1) He may have trained in them, but he obviously doesn't have connection. (You can tell by looking at him) Which means he never got the deeper aspects of the exercises. IE He's not a very good example anyways

2) He's huge, but that doesn't simulate superior kokyu skills at all. Even ark has said before that if you train properly, then someone that tends to charge in like Akebono did only makes it easier. Someone that's trained in Kokyu skills would make it much much much harder, having the notion of "stillness in motion/motion in stillness" and all that junk. Basically means they never overcommit.

As for Akebono wearing boxing gloves, for this to be a fair fight they should have at least allowed him to do Hari-te, since that's how Sumo wrestlers train to strike. (They dont train to use their body like a boxer, so having them strike like one is just ludicrious)

Interesting story, when Akebono fought Musashi, and they allowed him to strike this way, Musashi got put in an extremely tough spot. Nearly got knocked out, as I recall (though the hit was a foul).
While this was only K-1 and hence standup, the difference in his performance was substantial.

Anyways, I'm wondering why they always get the second rate guys to fight in these things. Im thinking things wouldn't go so well for the MMA guys if they went up against someone with an actual head on his shoulders, like Chiyonofuji.
Besides which, most of the last generation of wrestlers pretty much agree that this current crop is "crap". They rely too much on strength and weight (hint hint).
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:31 PM   #293
Brett Charvat
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

"In terms of someone pushing directly against your chest. Try it yourself. Don't lean into the push (i.e., if Uke were to suddenly remove his hand, would you fall over? Tsk Tsk). Don't put one foot/leg behind you as a "brace" (learn to develop this skill/path, not just some one-directional brace). Pretend his hand against your sternum is really your shoulder and that his shoulder is really your hand."

--Mr. Sigman, I'm very happy to hear you say that. That's precisely what I've been doing lately after each training session. Here's hoping!
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:58 PM   #294
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Robert,

I'd have to say that Akebono's skills at establishing a ground path are quite high (assuming you meant "connection with the ground" when you said "connection") - I don't think a big man can move as fast as he does without that skill (regardless of how much power he's obviously able to generate). I don't think it is accurate to say he doesn't have a deep understanding. A man his size, especially at that point in his career, cannot move like he does without a solid understanding of the elements being discussed here. To the point, if you look in the Bojansky fight, Akebono has no problem holding his balance and/or sending the guy backwards with blows as if he's nothing - this he's doing as he's advancing in/forward. He's not one time off balance, nor is he ever in a positive bracing angle, and he never fell to the ground once in that match. I'd have to disagree that he is just some huge guy charging in off balance - which makes it easier for the properly trained to secure a ground path against, etc. Against someone else who does not have Gracie's skill, like a Bojansky, anyone else that does not have that skill, Akebono would have just slammed right through them - not fall. In fact, in the Bojansky fight, the tide only turned when some exhaustion set in and Akebono's strategy became yin in nature - as his body stayed more still, less advancing. When his body stayed more still, you see the strikes of Bojansky finding their own tactical environment. All of Bojansky's strikes find their target in the third round, with the last kick gaining the knock out. Before that, when Akebono is still advancing forward, Bojansky's kick boxing foot maneuvers and his strikes have him being the one off balance - not Akebono.

It was clearly Gracie's skill that led Akebono into that guard and down onto the mat. It was a perfectly executed lead - something Gracie did twice in fact - and I imagine that not many folks could have done that. Additionally, it was executed so perfectly that any and all strikes, legal or otherwise, that Akebono might have wanted to throw were totally unavailable (i.e. not tactically viable). Had he thrown any of them he would have simply fallen into the lead more quickly and more deeply. Akebono did the next best thing he could have done: follow the lead and hold the dominant position of being on top. It's not ideal, especially against Gracie, but trying to strike once the lead was executed would have only opened him up more immediately for a lock or for his back to be taken. That was definitely high level skill on Gracie's part and not poor level skill on Akebono's part (past his prime or not). If there are folks out there that can establish a ground path against such a mass coming forward (coming forward in that way), and I have to say here that I'm skeptical of such skills existing in someone Akuzawa's size (since all ground paths have mechanical limitations), I would still slot such a tactic as a poor choice of options. Gracie in my opinion played that scenario perfectly with opting to lead Akebono into the guard. It is where he shines and he effortlys got Akebono to play his game. As I said, we see this tactical choice being played over and over in Osensei's Aikido as well - he doesn't just do the one. Aikido has both leads/absorbtions and ground paths/releases-redirections - one needs to know both in my opinion (even if it is just to do one). I'm sure you know: It's yin and yang, and there's always a little yang in yin and yin in yang.

My opinion,
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:21 PM   #295
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I'd have to say that Akebono's skills at establishing a ground path are quite high (assuming you meant "connection with the ground" when you said "connection") - I don't think a big man can move as fast as he does without that skill (regardless of how much power he's obviously able to generate). I don't think it is accurate to say he doesn't have a deep understanding. A man his size, especially at that point in his career, cannot move like he does without a solid understanding of the elements being discussed here.
Heh, sorry about that, not to sound like I'm back pedaling, but I should've clarified that I didn't mean Akebono has zero knowledge of those elements. But looking at his movement he's not as connected as he could be, nor does he move nearly as well as he could (though I admit weight is a huge factor in this case, I think it works against him).

You bring up a good point though, that Bojansky was the one mostly off balance during the entire match. The fact that Akebono couldn't take advantage of that means he stinks as a fighter, and I think points to the fact that his understanding of what he has is...well, rather low.

Which is why I said, seeing someone like Chiyonofuji going at it might be more interesting.

By the by, Ark hasn't insinuated that establishing a ground path against someone like Akebono would be a good idea. It's a bad idea(lol). But the skill you get from this kind of training, also means you should be able to change directions almost abnormally fast (to onlookers).

But looking at it from the flip side,
Like Dan, and you said, this could be looked at as an example of someone that has a little "something", but still getting his ass kicked by the better fighter that has no understanding of this stuff.

I still say this guy is a poor example tho (and not because he lost)
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:47 PM   #296
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ted, I disagree pretty strongly with what you're saying.

First of all, what is being called "internal" body mechanics is pretty widely known in Asia. In the Chinese Army, they train these sorts of things routinely using breathing exercises and related techniques. So the application for the military is pretty widely known and accepted over there. Over here, the background information is quite sparse. So sparse that Kevin can't envision anything other than what he's familiar with, so he's basically in the mode of "I've never had any experience with it, you can't be talking about something I don't know about, so therefore you must be talking about something I know of". ;^)

In Chinese martial arts tournaments there are, as I've mentioned before, a number of defined and associated phenomena with "qi" and "internal" development:
(1.) The skin becomes resistant to puncturing and tearing.
(2.) The body becomes able to absorb heavy blows.
(3.) strength is increased due to the development of fascia-related structures in the body.
(4.) Strength is increased due to the ability to manipulate paths with the body/mind.
(5.) Measureable electro-magnetic field around the body is increased.
(6.) There seems to be an immune-system function tied into the fascia-structure strengthening.

Those factors pretty well define what "internal strength" does. The practice of these things goes back well before the systematic study of "science" as we know it, so the training factors and body involvement gets mired in the pre-science terminology of ki/qi, but the phenomena are there and are measureable. None of it is mysterious when adequately defined and explained. Tohei's "ki tests", if you'll compare are bound up in the descriptions I gave above. Think of it as a nifty way to improve strength and health without doing excessive cardio or spending so much time at Gold's Gym.

Regards,

Mike
I've seen a person bend back a spear by pushing only their throat against the spear tip. I've seen others hit so hard with sticks and boards that the wood breaks, but they walk off apparently unharmed. However these are only my isolated observations. This phenomena mean nothing until a disciplined, scienctific study is done. Hopefully, more than one study is done, so the results can be compared.

I tend to agree with you on what may be happening. But while you say "what is happening", I chose to say "what may be happening". A good reason for this is firewalking.

Years ago, walking on hot embers was only done among aboriginal groups. Yet when a scientific study was done, it was determined that there wasn't anything harmful and anyone who could walk normally, could firewalk. Now firewalking is an event used in various motivational seminars.

You can never predict the results until after you've taken a close look at things.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:11 PM   #297
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
I tend to agree with you on what may be happening. But while you say "what is happening", I chose to say "what may be happening". A good reason for this is firewalking.

Years ago, walking on hot embers was only done among aboriginal groups. Yet when a scientific study was done, it was determined that there wasn't anything harmful and anyone who could walk normally, could firewalk. Now firewalking is an event used in various motivational seminars.

You can never predict the results until after you've taken a close look at things.
I don't know what it is you're trying to say in response to the fact that the Chinese Army does fairly codified qi/ki training things, Ted. If you disagree with my position about what is happening, why not posit something substantive as an alternative? I know you disagreed in the past with the putative idea of "paths", but that would still be a good place to start looking at the physics of what is happening. If it has a physical effect, we can track it, Ted. The only no-no is breaking the principle of the conservation of energy... injecting an unknown and unaccounted-for energy simply won't work as an explanation.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-20-2006, 06:40 AM   #298
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Where have paths been tracked?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-20-2006, 07:27 AM   #299
Michael Douglas
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Ted said ; "I've seen a person bend back a spear by pushing only their throat against the spear tip. I've seen others hit so hard with sticks and boards that the wood breaks, but they walk off apparently unharmed."
I've seen the spear bending thing, just a trick which requires a special prop, hence stage magic.
Try that with a real spear intended for war (for example Japanese Yari or British lance) and the throat is pierced, causing terrible injury or death. Just a silly trick, like paving slab sledgehammer stuff.

Resisting the pain and damage of sticks and boards enough to appear unhurt and unharmed takes great training and is bloomin impressive. My hat's off to the hard men who can do that! Different kettle of fish and has great relevance to fighting.

I wish the stage tricks weren't lumped in with the tough stuff so often.
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Old 05-20-2006, 09:08 AM   #300
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
That's precisely what I've been doing lately after each training session.
That's great, Brett! I sort of look at 3 stages of development:
(1.) Unaware that there is something functional about "ground path", "Ki", etc.

(2.) Able to do static examples or limited-incident examples of from a few to a number of uses of ground-path, weight path, etc.

***Then the near insurmountable Hurdle between 2 and 3***

(3.) Able to move at all times accessing the ground, the weight, and the "ki"/fascia development...... levels and types of usages all go upward from here.


To me, step #2 is getting your foot in the door... but most people never go beyond this because to move with this type of strength means to actually change your primary mode of movement to this lower-accessed power. #3 is the real "start", IMO. Try a number of slow, slow evaluations of things like the Aiki-taiso to try to keep it so that a partner would feel the pure ground or the pure weight at every increment of your motion if they directly resisted your movement (lightly, ver lightly, as in a testing mode). And you need to be pretty relaxed at all times, too.

FWIW

Mike
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