Training Internal Strength

OK, now that this has strayed so far, I have a couple of questions. Based on this discussion, and similar ones I've followed here in the past, as well as "Hidden In Plain Sight", I've become really curious about IS, IP, or whatever the hell it is. I enjoy my Aikido training and enjoy training hard with a martial attitude and I enjoy the subtle little movements too. I've been lucky enough to get tossed around a little by some really good folks, often wondering what just happened, so I think there is something there.

Based on an earlier posting I looked up Silk Reeling and watched a number of videos and read any number of blogs. So I gave it a try and after several hours of experimenting have found something interesting. After perhaps a hundred repetitions I got the feeling that my center was either pulling or pushing my arms into the movements and had almost no sensation of moving my hands and arms - they just went where they were supposed to. Am I heading in the right direction, or do I need to buy a bicycle helmet?

In any event I plan to attend one of MIke or Dan's classes at the soonest opportunity.

Michael Hackett wrote: OK, now that this has strayed so far, I have a couple of questions. Based on this discussion, and similar ones I've followed here in the past, as well as "Hidden In Plain Sight", I've become really curious about IS, IP, or whatever the hell it is. I enjoy my Aikido training and enjoy training hard with a martial attitude and I enjoy the subtle little movements too. I've been lucky enough to get tossed around a little by some really good folks, often wondering what just happened, so I think there is something there. Based on an earlier posting I looked up Silk Reeling and watched a number of videos and read any number of blogs. So I gave it a try and after several hours of experimenting have found something interesting. After perhaps a hundred repetitions I got the feeling that my center was either pulling or pushing my arms into the movements and had almost no sensation of moving my hands and arms - they just went where they were supposed to. Am I heading in the right direction, or do I need to buy a bicycle helmet? In any event I plan to attend one of MIke or Dan's classes at the soonest opportunity.

Keep the center, but now add the arms back in. Then add in the legs. Then the upper back and shoulders. Then the hips (both). Then the the waist/sternum area (left side, right side, back side, front side). Then the rotational surfaces of the legs. Then the ankles, feet, and toes. Then the rotational surfaces of the arms, the wrists, and fingers. Then the neck. Then realize you what you thought were those various parts were not, but rather misconceptions, and do go back and do it all again... Then if it's parts of your body and you're not using it yet, add it in too... This is why a teacher helps...

Michael Hackett wrote: OK, now that this has strayed so far, I have a couple of questions. Based on this discussion, and similar ones I've followed here in the past, as well as "Hidden In Plain Sight", I've become really curious about IS, IP, or whatever the hell it is. I enjoy my Aikido training and enjoy training hard with a martial attitude and I enjoy the subtle little movements too. I've been lucky enough to get tossed around a little by some really good folks, often wondering what just happened, so I think there is something there. Based on an earlier posting I looked up Silk Reeling and watched a number of videos and read any number of blogs. So I gave it a try and after several hours of experimenting have found something interesting. After perhaps a hundred repetitions I got the feeling that my center was either pulling or pushing my arms into the movements and had almost no sensation of moving my hands and arms - they just went where they were supposed to. Am I heading in the right direction, or do I need to buy a bicycle helmet? In any event I plan to attend one of MIke or Dan's classes at the soonest opportunity.

It's about being rooted throughout your movement Mike, its all it is, Don't resist where you don't have to, keep your centre and don't worry about which attack they will use, have faith in your wallet and waza and it will all come together sooner than later. Practice with resisting partners, forget all the airy fairy stuff, as that does not work.... it's about being soft and hard...Practice your aikido against punches, fast attacks, kicks punches, whatever, you name it and just keep doing it, put yourself out on the edge and it's surprising what you will come up with.....

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: It's about being rooted throughout your movement Mike, its all it is,

This is sort of like saying sending people to Mars is just about making a really big explosion with some people on top in a metal cannister. The devil is in the details, no? You can either just try strapping a bunch of different missiles to a bunch of different vehicles, or you can employ rocket science...

Same for the word "rooted". You can show up at the dojo and practice techniques, and maybe if you are lucky, after umpteen years, your body might absorb some patterns you are not conscious of that make you "rooted", and if you are extremely lucky, maybe you can consciously identify then what your body is doing. Or you can go in reverse, you can identify what structure is, and then you can practice it and reinforce it, without the foreplay, and then go back and test it in real combat situations once you've got it.

In 10 years of random MA practice, simple ideas like how the lower spine drives through the hips into the legs, or how the spine bridges that into the upper body, I just never got, and the way I was going, I would have never gotten them, not in decades more. Hell, if someone just told me to go "reel some silk" for 10 years, I wouldn't have gotten it either. But when someone gives you specific, comprehensible things to try, and that cause an immediate and perceptible difference in the level of power you can generate, and then gives you ways to strengthen it and reinforce it, the game changes. Practice smarter, so that when you practice harder, you get smarter results.

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: It's about being rooted throughout your movement Mike, its all it is..., forget all the airy fairy stuff, as that does not work....

Yea, its simply about being rooted
I dunno why it takes so long for people to get such a simple concept, or why the Chinese and Japanese write volumes upon volumes regarding this stuff.

And I'd avoid airy fairy conditioning routines like Shiko, suburi, spear training and the like. After all everyone knows that IS requires almost no physical conditioning, especially the legs and waist <snicker>

Robert John wrote: Yea, its simply about being rooted I dunno why it takes so long for people to get such a simple concept, or why the Chinese and Japanese write volumes upon volumes regarding this stuff.

I remember arguing with you that the six directions are simply the directions of balance that any weight lifter has to manage to keep the weights stable as he lifts.

A little experience with the Aunkai showed me that just being aware of those directions is a very different thing from actually tuning he body to a high degree of orientation to those six directions simultaneously.

As Lee said, the devil is in the details.

Thanks.

David

I haven't checked every post on this thread, so it's possible I'm repeating what someone else has said somewhere else, but Shioda sensei wrote:

As Shioda sensei wrote "They (martial arts) must not become mere intellectual exercises, the fundamental budo 'conduct' must not be treated lightly, and the 'way of technique' must not be neglected as a form of spiritual and physical training."

I believe he wished to emphasize the idea that the essence of Aikido - ki - would express itself to those who practice and follow basic techniques diligently.

In my opinion, the secret to developing internal strength is to go to practice, train hard and ki will come. You will feel it on a day when everything felt right and effortless. Thinking too much about it gets in the way of its development, like a kink in a hosepipe.

Michael Hackett wrote: Based on an earlier posting I looked up Silk Reeling and watched a number of videos and read any number of blogs. So I gave it a try and after several hours of experimenting have found something interesting. After perhaps a hundred repetitions I got the feeling that my center was either pulling or pushing my arms into the movements and had almost no sensation of moving my hands and arms - they just went where they were supposed to. Am I heading in the right direction, or do I need to buy a bicycle helmet?

you need a bicycle helmet.

it's a good start. the progression is doing standing post exercise first. this is the basic but pretty advance once you get into it. once you have done standing post, if you have any legs left, you start with silk reeling. it's like standing but with added dimension of full body winding/coiling/spiral/whatever. my experience was with the chen taiji approach. i found it very exhausting, mentally and physically, after 1/2 hour doing it. you really need some experienced teacher to give you a starting point; otherwise, you will wandering in the woods for a long time where you might find the way or you might get lost. with a good teacher, you could short-cut some of the pitfalls.

after silk reeling then you progress into static push-hand, then dynamic push-hand, then you realize that dynamic push-hand is really the simplified/advance (ya, i know, you will understand what i am talking about once you get there) aikido. that's the systematically way to build IP/IT body to power whatever martial arts movement that you practice, be it aikido, judo, karate, kungfu, joe-bob jujitsu, ...etc. training the body doesn't make you a skillful warrior, that depends on the rest of your warrior-ship training. it just gives you an edge over the other blokes in term of surviving or not.

Mark Peckett wrote: I believe he wished to emphasize the idea that the essence of Aikido - ki - would express itself to those who practice and follow basic techniques diligently. In my opinion, the secret to developing internal strength is to go to practice, train hard and ki will come. You will feel it on a day when everything felt right and effortless. Thinking too much about it gets in the way of its development, like a kink in a hosepipe.

I won't go into my history too much, but I left the yoseikan dojo, where I was uchi deshi to Minoru Mochizuki, when I had twenty years of aikido training (2 as uchi deshi, 5 in Japan). I did not attain ki during those 20 year. Nor did I attain it in the 15 years following, when I concentrated on kihon waza (which Mochizuki Sensei told me I taught excellently. Actually, he said to me, "You are the best in the world at teaching yoseikan kihon waza.")

I discovered ki in myself after spending a few years seriously studying the arguments and very tough training methods of Mike Sigman, Minoru Akuzawa, Rob John and Dan Harden. The turning point was in deep contemplation of the differences in usage of muscle, fascia, bone, breath and mind in the context of "six-directional contradictory tensions" as Rob described it. (See thread "Ki Eureka" in the "non-aikido martial traditions" forum.)

I put in almost 40 years of technique practice without getting it. Just a few years among the internal people (and most of that through reading and discussion on aikiweb and e-budo) gave me the breakthrough.

There are few people I respect more than Gozo Shioda, but don't forget that he went outside Ueshiba's aikido, to Kodo Horikawa, for deeper understanding. How do you compare him to aikido teachers who only trained in the "mainstream," through technique?

Best to you from the other Birmingham.

David

Mark Peckett wrote: I believe he wished to emphasize the idea that the essence of Aikido - ki - would express itself to those who practice and follow basic techniques diligently.

In this thread alone, these people disagree with your theory:

Lorel Latorilla, me, Phi Truong, Dan Harden, Hunter Lonsberry, Robert John, Mike Sigman, Josh Philipson, David Orange, Lee Salzman, Budd Yuhasz, Marc Abrams, Nicholas Eschenbruch, Stan Baker, Demetrio Cereijo, and Keith Larman.

People outside this thread who would, IMO, disagree include: Bill Gleason, George Ledyard, Rob Liberti, Tom Holz, Andrew Prochnow, Howard Popkin and Ellis Amdur.

Add to that list, the hundreds who have gone to workshops of Akuzawa, Sigman, and Harden.

Now we look at the worldwide population of Aikido in all its schools and how millions of people have done techniques for anywhere from 1 year to 40+ years and we have not reproduced another Shioda or Ueshiba.

The focus on techniques was a modern change instilled into what became Modern Aikido for the world. Ueshiba never preached techniques. In fact, his art was formless. Students griped that they rarely saw a technique twice.

Now that the world has practiced Modern Aikido and its techniques since, let's say, 1960, where have people progressed? Where are the peer level people of Shioda? Shirata? How about Ueshiba? Even some of the direct students have said that they haven't reached Ueshiba's level. What does that say for their students?

What has Modern Aikido been doing for 50 years? Techniques. Doesn't 50 years of focused study on techniques with no worldwide appearance of anyone like Shioda or Ueshiba state something very definitive?

Techniques are not the way of aiki, in other words, techniques are not aikido. Techniques are more like the sounds of kotodama. By that, I mean techniques are the byproduct of what should already have happened in the body. Aiki is a martial body training method to enhance martial skills.

Training for aiki is different. If you believe you can achieve aiki by training techniques or taking ukemi, then you are in good company with millions of people worldwide ... who have not come close to the skill level of people like Shioda or Ueshiba.

Robert John wrote: Yea, its simply about being rooted I dunno why it takes so long for people to get such a simple concept, or why the Chinese and Japanese write volumes upon volumes regarding this stuff. And I'd avoid airy fairy conditioning routines like Shiko, suburi, spear training and the like. After all everyone knows that IS requires almost no physical conditioning, especially the legs and waist <snicker>

That's your quote not mine, I didn't mention shiko, suburi, spear or whatever you like as that is obvious to basics and conditioning......

As I say it's all in the basics.......

Mark Murray wrote: In this thread alone, these people disagree with your theory: Lorel Latorilla, me, Phi Truong, Dan Harden, Hunter Lonsberry, Robert John, Mike Sigman, Josh Philipson, David Orange, Lee Salzman, Budd Yuhasz, Marc Abrams, Nicholas Eschenbruch, Stan Baker, Demetrio Cereijo, and Keith Larman. People outside this thread who would, IMO, disagree include: Bill Gleason, George Ledyard, Rob Liberti, Tom Holz, Andrew Prochnow, Howard Popkin and Ellis Amdur. Add to that list, the hundreds who have gone to workshops of Akuzawa, Sigman, and Harden. Now we look at the worldwide population of Aikido in all its schools and how millions of people have done techniques for anywhere from 1 year to 40+ years and we have not reproduced another Shioda or Ueshiba. The focus on techniques was a modern change instilled into what became Modern Aikido for the world. Ueshiba never preached techniques. In fact, his art was formless. Students griped that they rarely saw a technique twice. Now that the world has practiced Modern Aikido and its techniques since, let's say, 1960, where have people progressed? Where are the peer level people of Shioda? Shirata? How about Ueshiba? Even some of the direct students have said that they haven't reached Ueshiba's level. What does that say for their students? What has Modern Aikido been doing for 50 years? Techniques. Doesn't 50 years of focused study on techniques with no worldwide appearance of anyone like Shioda or Ueshiba state something very definitive? Techniques are not the way of aiki, in other words, techniques are not aikido. Techniques are more like the sounds of kotodama. By that, I mean techniques are the byproduct of what should already have happened in the body. Aiki is a martial body training method to enhance martial skills. Training for aiki is different. If you believe you can achieve aiki by training techniques or taking ukemi, then you are in good company with millions of people worldwide ... who have not come close to the skill level of people like Shioda or Ueshiba.

Since Mark was kind enough to leave my name off his 'A' list, I thought I would jump in with my own comment here.

Actually, there is a chance that waza may put someone into a position where aiki would manifest itself, but it would be totally by chance and not by design. I am sure there are those on his list that did experience this and said to themselves: "Wow! that is neat, now just what did I do to make that happen?" and then it was gone...

Bottom line is that this stuff can be taught and learned in a systematic fashion with the proper guidance from a more qualified individual - it won't happen overnight, but it won't take 20 years either.

To me, this is the primary focus of my study and the waza is just a chance to practice and manifest the aiki, which I mostly do Daitoryu Aikijujutsu since I find that DR offers a better selection of more subtle techniques that really lend themselves to the manifestation of aiki.

Greg

I didn't realise I was such a heretic with so much of the aikido community ranged against me!

All I was saying is that perhaps people spend too much time worrying about ki, when if they relaxed and worked on their basics, ki would come.

To quote Homma sensei:

"(discover) through daily practice inside and outside the dojo" but not "adopting another's definition blindly." According to Homma sensei Aikido is the "training of the mind" which expresses itself through breathing. When one's mind, body movement, and breathing are in harmony with the surroundings, one experiences the true meaning of Aiki.

He explains it a lot better than I did, I think.

It is in the basics, but there's two components in the basics - skill and conditioning. Just conditioning over time without training skill explicitly in the internal strength pieces will result in having some strength, some conditioning, but it will focus on external and localized muscles not working optimally together through a connected body. It will also affect your ability to deliver and absorb power as the correct conditioning over time allows for you to increasingly bring "all of you" to a single point in space across a number of directions (up, down, front, back, side, side and any combo).

The skill portion has to do the the intent working to manifest physically to affect changes in your body that's been correctly conditioned to allow these things to happen. Look at some of the big dog internal Chinese martial artists and how powerful their legs are, how quickly they can go from feeling ghostly soft to immoveable in an instant - not from applying a technique, but just being. Having that be something of a baseline skill that you can then apply to any martial art.

Just training exercises and techniques without the correct skills/connection understanding creates potentially at least a much longer road to any skill and the likelihood of attaining varying levels of incompleteness in the basic body mechanics of "how this stuff works".

Thank you all. Believe me, I understand the value of a teacher - learning something through experience is like taking the test before the instruction. My curiosity overcame me and I wanted to take a quick look. Now my curiosity is greater.......

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: That's your quote not mine, I didn't mention shiko, suburi, spear or whatever you like as that is obvious to basics and conditioning...... As I say it's all in the basics.......

So maybe you want to take a stab at why spearing or shiko is so important from a conditioning OR skill point of view?

And which shiko exercise do you think I'm referring to?

Mark Murray wrote: The focus on techniques was a modern change instilled into what became Modern Aikido for the world. Ueshiba never preached techniques. In fact, his art was formless. Students griped that they rarely saw a technique twice.

you constantly assert this Mark, but Ueshiba DID teach techniques, even in his later years and it's hard to dispute that he intended them to be a key part of the developmental process.

Greg Steckel wrote: Since Mark was kind enough to leave my name off his 'A' list, I thought I would jump in with my own comment here. Actually, there is a chance that waza may put someone into a position where aiki would manifest itself, but it would be totally by chance and not by design. I am sure there are those on his list that did experience this and said to themselves: "Wow! that is neat, now just what did I do to make that happen?" and then it was gone... Bottom line is that this stuff can be taught and learned in a systematic fashion with the proper guidance from a more qualified individual - it won't happen overnight, but it won't take 20 years either. To me, this is the primary focus of my study and the waza is just a chance to practice and manifest the aiki, which I mostly do Daitoryu Aikijujutsu since I find that DR offers a better selection of more subtle techniques that really lend themselves to the manifestation of aiki. Greg

I just had a private PM where we discussed this in a little more detail. So let me just add some clarification to my post.

There are just so many things that have to come together at the right time to manifest true aiki, and that just will not happen from just training waza. However, my point really was to just state that waza (or other movement) could by chance bring together a piece here or a piece there that is required for aiki, but without knowing what it was because of a lack of knowledge and training in aiki, it would be lost.

Greg

Mark Murray wrote: In this thread alone, these people disagree with your theory: Lorel Latorilla, me, Phi Truong, Dan Harden, Hunter Lonsberry, Robert John, Mike Sigman, Josh Philipson, David Orange, Lee Salzman, Budd Yuhasz, Marc Abrams, Nicholas Eschenbruch, Stan Baker, Demetrio Cereijo, and Keith Larman.

Disclaimer: I don't have the IHTBF nor I have put my hands (nor any other part of my anatomy) on any of the "usual suspects". I'm not a member of this group and have some issues on how IS/Aiki training is "marketed".

@Mark Peckett
That said, I think your theory about training in basics leading to aiki (aiki as manifestation of IS/IT) have a serious problem: Basic skills aquisition (kihon kata) is not about attributes developement. Attributes (IS/Aiki), if any, developed via basic training are a) by serendipity; b) after years and years of kihon; b) in a non conscious manner, so they are mostly ineffable and unteachable to the next generation of students.

The IS coaches claim to have found/developed especifics methods for attributes developement, and here are people who, after trying said methods, they say they work.

Serious scientifical peer reviewed studies about performance increases due to following said methods have not been published afaik.

Jason Casteel wrote: you constantly assert this Mark, but Ueshiba DID teach techniques, even in his later years and it's hard to dispute that he intended them to be a key part of the developmental process.

Hmmm ... as a technicality, one could state, Ueshiba taught techniques. As a matter of actual truth, though? People complain that I post too many quotes of interviews and articles. So, instead, let's just consider ...

Consider pre war where Ueshiba was actively traveling and "teaching". While he was at one place "teaching", who was teaching at all the others?

Consider the pre-war schedule where there weren't that many hours of being taught by Ueshiba but rather many hours of practice with peers and seniors.

Consider pre-war students saying they often did techniques with seniors.

Consider the prewar film and notice how Ueshiba "taught". Who actually learned techniques from Ueshiba in that film?

Consider Mochizuki complaining that Ueshiba completely pared down the Daito ryu syllabus into just a small number of techniques. If techniques were Ueshiba's focus, then why did he trim so much?

Consider many of the students of Ueshiba complaining that he wouldn't show a technique twice. Did he "teach" a technique? Sure. But, was he really teaching or just doing the good old show and you have to steal?

Consider post-war when Ueshiba was in Iwama. Who taught at Tokyo?

Consider post-war when Ueshiba was traveling around, who taught at Iwama or Tokyo?

Consider the post war training schedule at Tokyo where Ueshiba only "taught" the morning class. And even then, many of the students complained he talked away most of the time.

Consider Ueshiba's daily routine at Iwama. Who actually put together a jo and bokken syllabus? Wasn't Ueshiba.

Consider Ueshiba's trips to Manchuria. Who taught while he was gone?

Consider the demonstration by Ohba where Ueshiba had to use valid, martial skills and not what he wanted to show.

Consider that when picked as uke by Ueshiba if a student didn't attack the very specific way that Ueshiba wanted, that student didn't get picked as uke again.

Consider who it actually was that put together techniques at hombu to create a systematized syllabus? Wasn't Ueshiba.

Consider that Ueshiba himself viewed what he did as a spiritual ideology using his students rather than Ueshiba focusing on telling his students that they must do more techniques.

Consider Ueshiba yelling at the students practicing techniques that they weren't doing his aikido. If techniques were the focus, then what exactly were they doing wrong by imitating what Ueshiba had showed them?

Now, jump to Sagawa. Consider that Sagawa states aiki is a body training method and it isn't about techniques.

Consider Sagawa, Kodo, Okamoto, Ueshiba all said their art was formless. Not a myriad of techniques, but formless.

Consider Takeda not teaching the same techniques twice. Closing his doors because he didn't want people to see the actual training method as it was too easy to "steal".

Consider Tokimune, Hisa, Kodo, Sagawa, Ueshiba all having solo training exercises that did not get shown. Where are the techniques?

Oh crud, there's just too many "considers" out there. You want to focus on techniques, more power to you. IMO, you'll never get Ueshiba's aiki doing that. You will get Modern Aikido's definition of aiki. Either way, if you're happy about your training - that's what matters.

Hi Demetrio,

I was only saying that you have issues with the technique focused theory. In fact, in your second paragraph below, you go into details about how you think training in basics leading to aiki have a serious problem. That's all I was doing when I included you.

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Disclaimer: I don't have the IHTBF nor I have put my hands (nor any other part of my anatomy) on any of the "usual suspects". I'm not a member of this group and have some issues on how IS/Aiki training is "marketed". @Mark Peckett That said, I think your theory about training in basics leading to aiki (aiki as manifestation of IS/IT) have a serious problem: Basic skills aquisition (kihon kata) is not about attributes developement. Attributes (IS/Aiki), if any, developed via basic training are a) by serendipity; b) after years and years of kihon; b) in a non conscious manner, so they are mostly ineffable and unteachable to the next generation of students. The IS coaches claim to have found/developed especifics methods for attributes developement, and here are people who, after trying said methods, they say they work. Serious scientifical peer reviewed studies about performance increases due to following said methods have not been published afaik.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Disclaimer: I don't have the IHTBF nor I have put my hands (nor any other part of my anatomy) on any of the "usual suspects". I'm not a member of this group and have some issues on how IS/Aiki training is "marketed". .

demetrio, you want to join the "Mouldy Rope" group. i am trying to apply for membership of that group. heard good things about it, at least, the partying part, S&M possibly with whips and so on.

Mark Peckett wrote: He explains it a lot better than I did, I think.

Yes, Mark, but by appealing to Homma's "authority" and "understanding" in addition to saying that you think "ki will just come" - seems more like a "belief system" than an explicative "here's how it works".

Hey Mark,

Thanks for including me, but Tony doesn't think I can fight anyway, so clearly I'm not a good person as a reference.

He thinks I only buy "snake oil", even when I offer my address for people to come visit.

Sorry to detract from the quality of your list.

Best wishes,

Howard

Mark Peckett wrote: I didn't realise I was such a heretic with so much of the aikido community ranged against me! All I was saying is that perhaps people spend too much time worrying about ki, when if they relaxed and worked on their basics, ki would come. To quote Homma sensei: "(discover) through daily practice inside and outside the dojo" but not "adopting another's definition blindly." According to Homma sensei Aikido is the "training of the mind" which expresses itself through breathing. When one's mind, body movement, and breathing are in harmony with the surroundings, one experiences the true meaning of Aiki. He explains it a lot better than I did, I think.

Count me in as another heretic Mark

My thoughts are that unless you enter the arena of randori and shiai and have actually been in real altercations you can never know your real ability. That's all there is to it, snake oil and all.....