Couple of tai chi related questions

Both to do with push hands, sort of. I did a bit of wudang tai chi ('practical tai chi') a couple of years ago, and did a bit of free step push hands. I've quite recently taken up shodokan aikido, at least partly because I enjoy shiai (and other forms of) randori in the same way that I used to enjoy push hands, and have been loving every minute of it. Two questions though...
i) Does anyone which aikido techniques would be allowed in free push hands? Presumably atemi waza, but what about the others? I never really got advanced enough to be able to do anything I wasn't allowed to!
ii) One of the things I did get onto in tai chi was using little leg sweeps to manipulate the opponent's balance in push hands. There isn't anything like this in the randori no kata (and hence in randori) for safety reasons, but are there such techniques in aikido generally?

Thanks!

Hi Dave
In my experience Aikido can accomodate any technique from any art - you just have to adapt it slightly to Aiki principles. If you think about it Aikido is a synthesis of many other arts, so you just 'open the book backwards' if you know what I mean.
Cheers
P

David Sim wrote: ii) One of the things I did get onto in tai chi was using little leg sweeps to manipulate the opponent's balance in push hands.

I'm not familiar with tai chi. From what I've seen and read, the only recommended feet attack is to kick (stump) below knees. Are you sure you got the "sweeps" from a good source?

David Sim wrote: I did a bit of wudang tai chi ('practical tai chi') a couple of years ago, and did a bit of free step push hands. I've quite recently taken up shodokan aikido, at least partly because I enjoy shiai (and other forms of) randori in the same way that I used to enjoy push hands, and have been loving every minute of it. Two questions though... i) Does anyone which aikido techniques would be allowed in free push hands? Presumably atemi waza, but what about the others? I never really got advanced enough to be able to do anything I wasn't allowed to! ii) One of the things I did get onto in tai chi was using little leg sweeps to manipulate the opponent's balance in push hands. There isn't anything like this in the randori no kata (and hence in randori) for safety reasons, but are there such techniques in aikido generally?

My personal opinion is that most Aikido is one sees is not necessarily what O-Sensei meant by Aikido, so that point needs to be considered. On the other hand, most "Tai Chi" you see in the west is just someone's take on it, as well. I've seen numbers of skilled Chinese just sit and watch western "Tai Chi" (including "Wudang" or "Practical Tai Chi") and just say that it wasn't really Tai Chi. So that presents a problem right off the bat, doesn't it? Doing a few "nei gongs" that allow your mates to jump off a chair onto your chest is something they do in southern Shaolin, not in Taiji, BTW.

That being said, Irimi Nage, Tenchi Nage, and the arm kokyu's would be good in a free-sparring arrangement... with the eye always open to take kotegaehi or sankyo or shiho-nage.

FWIW

Mike

Roosvelt Freeman wrote: I'm not familiar with tai chi. From what I've seen and read, the only recommended feet attack is to kick (stump) below knees. Are you sure you got the "sweeps" from a good source?

It was a small, quick, close range movement to take one foot out from under someone who you've already got a bit off balance, iirc. Sorry if my terminology's a bit off. But that was why it seemed aikido-able - there have been a few times where I've had a basic kazushi on someone and then wondered if I could swipe at their ankle rather than go through with an arm manipulation, say. Another example would be gedan-ate, where you occasionally (once is usually enough) get told off in shiai for taking out the opponent's legs out from under them rather than pushing their body over. Which suggests that it works (in some sense) but isn't particularly pleasant to be on the other end of when you're not expecting it...

As to the source, I can't remember exactly who it was from, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the mainstream UK wudang people. Wudang isn't a completely traditional a style of tai chi, but even the Beijing 24 form has a couple of highish kicks in it. I'm pretty sure it was kosher.

Peter: yeah, I see your point. I was really wondering if any aikido styles regularly teach them, though...

Mike Sigman wrote: My personal opinion is that most Aikido is one sees is not necessarily what O-Sensei meant by Aikido, so that point needs to be considered. On the other hand, most "Tai Chi" you see in the west is just someone's take on it, as well. I've seen numbers of skilled Chinese just sit and watch western "Tai Chi" (including "Wudang" or "Practical Tai Chi") and just say that it wasn't really Tai Chi.

To be honest, I suspect that numbers of westerners would claim that wudang isn't really tai chi, let alone Chinese. But I'm not really asking deep questions about the origins, philosophy and traditions of the arts, I'm asking naive practical ones: 'has anyone been taught these techniques in aikido?' and 'if I did those techniques in competitive push hands, would I be disqualified?' (Or alternatively, 'if I did them in friendly push hands, would it violate the spirit of the thing?')

David Sim wrote: To be honest, I suspect that numbers of westerners would claim that wudang isn't really tai chi, let alone Chinese. But I'm not really asking deep questions about the origins, philosophy and traditions of the arts, I'm asking naive practical ones: 'has anyone been taught these techniques in aikido?' and 'if I did those techniques in competitive push hands, would I be disqualified?' (Or alternatively, 'if I did them in friendly push hands, would it violate the spirit of the thing?')

I realize you weren't asking questions about the origins, but the assumption in your question is that certain things are "Tai Chi" and that other things are "Aikido". I'm just saying that it's wise to consider the possibility that those assumptions may be open to question... before the validity issue in some competitions is considered. The other problem I often see is that many western "competition push hands" is absolutely nothing like good-calibre push-hands and is more like the wrestling, low-level stuff seen in some parts of China. But maybe the pedigree isn't so important as having fun.... in which case, these nomenclatures of "Tai Chi" and "Aikido" are not so important. Meeting your mate on the mat some odd evening to give things a try is never a bad idea, in fact.

FWIW

Mike