Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Graham Jenkins wrote: Cool! You win! What a great argument that is!!1! And you berate others for their inadequate explanations?

aren't I.....

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I'm implying he could be wrong. Why don't you provide the relevant paragraphs that prove your claims of Suenaka Sensei being a first hand witness of Ueshiba Morihei fighting challengers?

Μy claims?
I did not write the book, man.
And i do not care to tell you the truth.
I know my Aikido works, and how it works. I know it makes me feel well in class with my friends and we do not compete in anything else but how to make the class move on with friendship and devotion.
Yes, the grandfather up the wall probably condemned competition within his art. Maybe as a youngster he did not. Still i do not care.
It has saved my life 3 times so far against attacks which you could baptise as "competition" or just "unprovoked street violence".
I would never purposely compete against anyone, aikidoka or x-doka. But i readily use the art everyday, from dawn till i go to bed facing all the "attacks" one can face in his life: an angry boss, a retard driving and texting at the same time, a mugger down the road, my crying child.
I was asked to fight a Shotokan Karateka two years ago who thought aikidokas are sissies. I called the guy up and we ended up drinking lager down the pub laughing our bellies off. That competition ended up well. He probably still thinks aikidokas are sissies but that night i know i won cause no harm was done to no-one.

Stelios Papadakis wrote: Μy claims? I did not write the book, man. And i do not care to tell you the truth. I know my Aikido works, and how it works. I know it makes me feel well in class with my friends and we do not compete in anything else but how to make the class move on with friendship and devotion. Yes, the grandfather up the wall probably condemned competition within his art. Maybe as a youngster he did not. Still i do not care. It has saved my life 3 times so far against attacks which you could baptise as "competition" or just "unprovoked street violence". I would never purposely compete against anyone, aikidoka or x-doka. But i readily use the art everyday, from dawn till i go to bed facing all the "attacks" one can face in his life: an angry boss, a retard driving and texting at the same time, a mugger down the road, my crying child. I was asked to fight a Shotokan Karateka two years ago who thought aikidokas are sissies. I called the guy up and we ended up drinking lager down the pub laughing our bellies off. That competition ended up well. He probably still thinks aikidokas are sissies but that night i know i won cause no harm was done to no-one.

Many of my past incidents with people, have ended with better understanding too, Stelios.... not all I might add....
Those that have come back to me and apologised for their ridiculously bad attitude were impressed with my fortitude and realised their stupidity..... now we all have respect for one another....Resolution of conflict, I would say?

Stelios Papadakis wrote: Μy claims?

You claimed Suenaka Sensei witnessed at least one of Ueshiba fights against a challenger.

I did not write the book, man.

I know.

And i do not care to tell you the truth.

But you cared to spread BS. That makes you a liar, isn't it?

I know my Aikido works, and how it works. I know it makes me feel well in class with my friends and we do not compete in anything else but how to make the class move on with friendship and devotion. Yes, the grandfather up the wall probably condemned competition within his art. Maybe as a youngster he did not. Still i do not care.

So what?

It has saved my life 3 times so far against attacks which you could baptise as "competition" or just "unprovoked street violence".

Homeric feats.

I would never purposely compete against anyone, aikidoka or x-doka. But i readily use the art everyday, from dawn till i go to bed facing all the "attacks" one can face in his life: an angry boss, a retard driving and texting at the same time, a mugger down the road, my crying child.

What you do in your private life is not my business.

I was asked to fight a Shotokan Karateka two years ago who thought aikidokas are sissies. I called the guy up and we ended up drinking lager down the pub laughing our bellies off. That competition ended up well. He probably still thinks aikidokas are sissies but that night i know i won cause no harm was done to no-one.

So he kicked your rear end and you paid the beers, isn't it?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: But you cared to spread BS. That makes you a liar, isn't it? So he kicked your rear end and you paid the beers, isn't it?

Maybe you should be careful with this sort of language, man
The forum has rules, you know

Stelios Papadakis wrote: Maybe you should be careful with this sort of language, man The forum has rules, you know

Yes, I know there are rules about foul language. It's a pity there are not rules about lying and stercore tauri spreading.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Yes, I know there are rules about foul language. It's a pity there are not rules about lying and stercore tauri spreading.

the no competition thing I think sometimes serves to stop aikido development.

I have seen many people throw around these quote when anything they don;t like happens to them. for example the uke uses too much strength, thats compteting, the uke starts to move around and tries to give a more realistic attack, thats competeting. the list goes on

Imagine if this had been said and taken to heart in other martial arts. no competeing in karate, judo etc where would we be then.

I think there is a lack of division between the concepts of competition, and of sport in this thread. They are not one in the same. A sporting mentality is very different from a competitive mind-set. And from any text I've read on the idea of "competition" being wrong for Aikido by the founder and some of his Uchi Deshi, it always was in reference to the concept of "sport". There are actually some instances where competition among deshi in the greater sense, outside of of sporting sense, was tolerated as youthful angst. Competition between classmates exists naturally.
I just want to be clear on whether we are speaking of sporting, or competing with peers.
I've played sports for years and I see the different between competing against another team to declare a winner, and competing with a fellow team mate to push myself to become faster or stronger.
And for that matter, there is a division between sporting effective and martially effective arts. Anyone who's ever entered a karate competition where "hits to the face" are fouls, knows that they tend to not train to guard the face in preparation for sporting events.(For the record this subject has been talked to death in other threads, so I'm not meaning to dig it back up.)

As for my opinion; no offense to the greater sporting Aikido community, I just have never viewed Aikido as a sport. I have always preferred it strictly as a discipline without sporting involved.

Andrew Macdonald wrote: the no competition thing I think sometimes serves to stop aikido development. I have seen many people throw around these quote when anything they don;t like happens to them. for example the uke uses too much strength, thats compteting, the uke starts to move around and tries to give a more realistic attack, thats competeting. the list goes on Imagine if this had been said and taken to heart in other martial arts. no competeing in karate, judo etc where would we be then.

Maybe we would be better? As mentioned earlier in this thread, people like Jigoro Kano who founded Judo didn't like sport! Just like the earlier karate masters didn't approve of it.

The fact that many early masters said this must mean that it might be true. At that time either it worked or the system/technique died on the battlefield.

Andrew Macdonald wrote: the no competition thing I think sometimes serves to stop aikido development. I have seen many people throw around these quote when anything they don;t like happens to them. for example the uke uses too much strength, thats compteting, the uke starts to move around and tries to give a more realistic attack, thats competeting. the list goes on Imagine if this had been said and taken to heart in other martial arts. no competeing in karate, judo etc where would we be then.

I don't think if there is no competition it will stop my aikido development, I must compete against myself to improve myself, I'm doing aikido for myself . And of course if uke uses to much strengh it is better to improve myself to deal with that, then I really know that my aikido works, but it is not competition at all.
And thanks Maggie, I agree with your explanation

I think the old master of those styles were opposed to sport for very very good reasons, it takes away from the art when you stop dealing with it as a true fighting art and try to catch points off people. you play by rules which negate many of the techniques and you end up with a very de clawed version of an art.

however

these epople do compete, they sparr, they test themselves and in the placesi have trained there is far less complaining about no being fair and not allowing the technique, if you land a punch or a throw when i person wasn;t allowing yopu to then you deserved to get it

Andrew Macdonald wrote: I think the old master of those styles were opposed to sport for very very good reasons, it takes away from the art when you stop dealing with it as a true fighting art and try to catch points off people. you play by rules which negate many of the techniques and you end up with a very de clawed version of an art. however these epople do compete, they sparr, they test themselves and in the placesi have trained there is far less complaining about no being fair and not allowing the technique, if you land a punch or a throw when i person wasn;t allowing yopu to then you deserved to get it

I agree. But this is really not sport, it's justing testing one's skills in a semi realistic scenarium. I believe that most martial arts do this, and I would not say it was sport.
Although some of the same mechanisms apply, like the banning of certain lethal techniques and the likes.

Andrew Macdonald wrote: the no competition thing I think sometimes serves to stop aikido development. I have seen many people throw around these quote when anything they don;t like happens to them. for example the uke uses too much strength, thats compteting, the uke starts to move around and tries to give a more realistic attack, thats competeting. the list goes on Imagine if this had been said and taken to heart in other martial arts. no competeing in karate, judo etc where would we be then.

Bunnies everywhere aaaarrrgghhhh...

Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: I agree. But this is really not sport, it's justing testing one's skills in a semi realistic scenarium. I believe that most martial arts do this, and I would not say it was sport. Although some of the same mechanisms apply, like the banning of certain lethal techniques and the likes.

Common sense dictates it.........

How does one measure ability without an uncooperative partner?

By having someone compete against you.....

Ask someone to be compliant when they do not want to fall down for you , have every intention of taking your head off by pummelling it with their fists and you will know why!!!

Yeeeeesh!!!!

Carina Reinhardt wrote: I don't think if there is no competition it will stop my aikido development, I must compete against myself to improve myself, I'm doing aikido for myself .

How do you check if you are really improving?

Maggie Schill wrote: Are you speaking of the sporting sense? Or in the general competition sense? Having played sports all my life, the mindset of sporting and competition are entirely different, in my opinion. There is a big stiff guy in my class who is convinced that Iriminage doesn't work, because frankly few people have ever done it to him earnestly. I'll often grab him first to do iriminage techniques with... to me this is competition to some day prove to him that iriminage might just work. However I find this mindset of competition to be different from sporting. Sporting in which two enter to see whom is better. That is sort of the difference between competing and sporting. Sporting is set up to declare a winner and loser...and is great fun. But competition within a discipline has no set standard to declare a definite winner and loser, in my opinion. Me besting the stiff guy with iriminage does not mean I won and he lost....it just simply means I've progressed in my understanding of a technique. Thus it is a competition that is helpful, but is not sport, IMO of course.

It's different in football, cricket, ball sports and any other sports until it comes to martial combat sports. Whether it's got rules or not , how can you measure your ability without some form of competitive measure or match? You cannot know your ability without it.....
It only makes sense......

All this nonsense that you have to use the deadly technique to kill your opponent is utter rubbish......

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: How do you check if you are really improving?

Fine if you are doing dance or gymnastics yoga or something , but aikido is a martial art.... Martial arts were designed to be for self defence, not tiddly winks, draughts or snakes and ladders.... and for Henry....... ribbon twirling (only joking sensei!!)
If you want to get fit there are far better ways of doing it.....

Stelios Papadakis wrote: Maybe you should be careful with this sort of language, man The forum has rules, you know

Say what you want so long as you don't swear!!!!

[quote=Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe;272395]Fine if you are doing dance or gymnastics yoga or something , but aikido is a martial art.... Martial arts were designed to be for self defence, not tiddly winks, draughts or snakes and ladders.... and for Henry....... ribbon twirling (only joking sensei!!)

If you want to get fit there are far better ways of doing it.....[/QUOTE]

Ahhhhhhhhhh yes, agreed, there are better ways to exercise, to be religious, to believe in the unbelievable, there are many varied social clubs, but where else could you get to wear a hakama and a black belt and say " I am a man of budo "

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Fine if you are doing dance or gymnastics yoga or something , but aikido is a martial art.... Martial arts were designed to be for self defence, not tiddly winks, draughts or snakes and ladders.... and for Henry....... ribbon twirling (only joking sensei!!) If you want to get fit there are far better ways of doing it.....

I was not adressing you but, anyway... in my case you're (mostly) preaching to the choir.

However, I don't think aikido (I mean O Sensei's aikido) is a martial art in the sense you give to the term: coherent set of techniques, tactics, strategies and principles aimed at self-defense. Of course aikido (if properly trained) can be used succesfully in self defense situations but, IMNSHO, was not especially designed by O Sensei for that.

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: It's different in football, cricket, ball sports and any other sports until it comes to martial combat sports. Whether it's got rules or not , how can you measure your ability without some form of competitive measure or match? You cannot know your ability without it..... It only makes sense...... All this nonsense that you have to use the deadly technique to kill your opponent is utter rubbish......

If we are talking soccer the manager judges the player from what they see them doing in practice as well as mathces. But sport is sport, and the goal is to win competitions. In self defense the goal is not to win competitions, but to come out on top in a situation OR avoid the fight in the first place.

If the person has got af knife for instance, sporting training might mean that you do not take the situation as serious as it should be taken, as you train knowing that there will always be a second chance. The state of mind is absolutely critical in self defense situation.

What is rubbish about atemi to the throat og eyes or kick to the crotch, if you have to? This and pressurepoint applications have nothing to do in sports and sparring. You do believe in pressure points I hope? Nerveendings being pushed against the bones causing pain and uncontrollable movement? The doctor tests your reflexes this way you know.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I was not adressing you but, anyway... in my case you're (mostly) preaching to the choir. However, I don't think aikido (I mean O Sensei's aikido) is a martial art in the sense you give to the term: coherent set of techniques, tactics, strategies and principles aimed at self-defense. Of course aikido (if properly trained) can be used succesfully in self defense situations but, IMNSHO, was not especially designed by O Sensei for that.

There is a slight difference in my aikido I think.......

The aikido I practice is that of Tomiki/Shodokan where we use shiai sport to measure our progress, All in kata, randori and finally shiai..... for those who want it.....

Most here would disagree with that and we are known as heretics, but at least we are rational heretics....

I'm not preaching to you Demetrio as you already know.....

You tend to be a bit of a preacher yourself, If I'm not mistaken......

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: You tend to be a bit of a preacher yourself, If I'm not mistaken......

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties. Milton, Areopagitica.

Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: If we are talking soccer the manager judges the player from what they see them doing in practice as well as mathces. But sport is sport, and the goal is to win competitions. In self defense the goal is not to win competitions, but to come out on top in a situation OR avoid the fight in the first place. If the person has got af knife for instance, sporting training might mean that you do not take the situation as serious as it should be taken, as you train knowing that there will always be a second chance. The state of mind is absolutely critical in self defense situation. What is rubbish about atemi to the throat og eyes or kick to the crotch, if you have to? This and pressurepoint applications have nothing to do in sports and sparring. You do believe in pressure points I hope? Nerveendings being pushed against the bones causing pain and uncontrollable movement? The doctor tests your reflexes this way you know.

I have managed to put people on their asses without resorting to such crude devises, even in real life , but if and when they produced a blade, tanbo came in bloody useful.... Nice bloke tanbo..
As for the pressure points Only if you are deadly accurate...
You have never been in a real altercation in your life mister.... that is obvious to me....