Sparring with muay thai chaps

paul watt (paw) wrote: Colleen, I though Clausewitz believed the side with the strongest will to win would be victorious? Please correct me, though.

Ol' Carl included will to win as one of many variables that affect the resolution of a conflict. If I remember correctly, (I'm probably gonna need to be corrected here, it's been a LOOOOONG time since I studied Clausewitz! ) he discussed this point primarily in relation to his 'Total War' concept - i.e., war for the sake of war without external influences; a non-realistic concept he used to highlight his arguments. Once he bridged it into real-life discussion (remember, this is real hazy for me; CA, please correct?), 'will to win' was reduced to a primary consideration, rather than an ultimate deciding factor.

I think.

Gotta dig out 'On War' again.

Dave

Paul,

I could be way off, but I saw Clausewitz' view of victory in breaking the will of the opponent (destroy the enemy military power, conquer the country to instil a new military force, and secure the submission of that government and its allies---breaking the will of its people). A slight difference I think, not who has the stronger will, but who is better able to break his opponent's will.

Still, that does not negate his statement that "attack and defense are things differing in kind and of unequal force. Polarity is, therefore, not applicable to them" and further went on to cite the example I put in my earlier post.

Dave,

Didn't mean to ignore you, I had written a reply but forgot to 'send' it, then saw yours after. I am SO not an authoritity here, definately not one to correct anyone... good to know I'm not the only one digging around under piles of books and magazines (and what a bunch of geeks we are).

Again, I could be wrong, but while he did make a distinction between war as an absolute and war in its often more limited, concrete forms, I still thought the main principle applied, but again I read it not as having the 'will to win' but on the ability, through number/employment of troops, timing of battles, the costs (economic and otherwise) of prolonged conflict, other aims of strategy, to break the will of the opponent.

Now I'm going to check under the bed, I know I have it somewhere... did you find yours, and what do you think??

Uh, sorry. We will now return this thread to its originally scheduled subject...

so ok, I'm a geek, but I'm average height with a mean disposition and a tendency to wear leather, so just ignore me and I'll go away...

Yeh, I think it is definately useful to train with others. However it is not real, though I don't know if the previous posts explained it as I would think of it.

When ever I have been in a fight there was plenty of time to strike them first, because you go through the 'egging on period'. Often competitive fighters are waiting for the point where 'the fight starts'.

Alternatively, people often try to take a wild swipe when you are not aware. Aikido prepares you more than anything I can think of for this since the attacker usually does one, focused and very hard strike.

My usual ploy is to assess whether someone is really just after a fight, or they have an honest dispute. If the latter, you can settle it pretty well without violence. If the former, I tell them I don't want any trouble, then hit them and follow through with a technique (e.g. ikkyo) when they try to defend. If they are going to kill me, I avoid the attack and dissapear into the crowd (which usually exist during fights).

Ian

Friends I see a mistake to my way of thinking. Sparring is most certainly not streetfighting. The strategies are most certainly not the same. IMHO, sparring is a kind of competition where two people will try to help one another learn about their own effectiveness. Street fighting is where someone tries to hurt another person. There is a difference here in the intent. In a street fight one will bite, use weapons, and all kinds of other nasty little tricks to survive. As to Muay Thai, if you'll check your history, those fighters are infamous for defeating peoople of other fighting styles from kung fu to TKD. Their techniques are simple and direct and few comparitively. Say what you like about mastery, but they practice the exact same set of about 20 techniques at a pace most Aikidoka will never think of training at. They train those same techniques usually from the age of 5 or 6 nearly every day of their lives for 10 to 15 years. Can any of you say that you are as conditioned or practice the same 4 to 6 hours a day that they do at their pace? I sincerely doubt it. When all of their competitors have the same kind of training, it would be foolish to think that they don't also learn timing, and awareness in a way that most other fighters never will. My advice is this, and admittedly it has been hit on the head once already, take them outside those 20 techniques. Take away their weapons. How's that for crushing the enemy's will?

"Come like the wind, go like the lightning."

Aleksey S (shihonage) wrote: Someone very wise once said "Don't box a boxer, and don't grapple a grappler".

One of Bruce Lee's favorite sayings was, "Fight a boxer, and box a fighter."

Hi

Just a short comment on something I noticed that may add to all the good suggestions.

I have been a Judo player and have a good friend that I have experimented with who is now a 4th Dan Shotokan instructor.

As a training method the katas we do don't prepare a student for sparring situations very well when it comes to dealing with an opponents strategy to defeat you.

For example we take a stance in Kata and wait for the attack for us to respond to. In sparring you have a stance but will end up constantly moving like you see boxers and Judoka do. You can't stand there and anticipate what will come at you.

Also, the movement used by the opponent will be used to lead you into a position they can take advantage of. For example they may circle clockwise and when you follow they will lash out counter to that hoping to surprise you.

This is pretty simple and I mention it just to make a point that I think once we have learned our Katas then it would be really good for us to add freestlye training where one or more ukes begin attacking while moving around you and without warning about what attack is coming.

This is a way different feeling and is a natural step forward in practice.

Of course as pointed out already it still isn't "fighting" but all the same I think it is a valuable learning tool.

I recently did a Yudansha test where much of the demonstration was freestyle with 6 ukes and it was very difficult compared to a prepared list of techniques to demonstrate.

Parry strikes and kicks.

Duck, dodge and weave.

The commited attack presents opportunity.

Then Aikido goes to work.

But, you must learn how to stay alive, safe from harm until then.

Don't forget to practice!

Hi arvin m.

this is sue im relatively new to aikido but have been doing tai boxing for a long time.

I found that wen i started aikido and went back tai boxing class the nxt day i was trying to use the aikido.

the nack to tai boxing is to stay close to ur opponant and ware him down while getting those vital hits and kicks in tai boxers have amazing balence and can hold a kick for a long time longer than ive seen any one in aikido (well htats in my dojo!)

if u get the change again stay close to them or as far away as possabil and wait for him to attack u then use ur aikido to grab hte kick and take him to the floor but a word of advice don't let him get u inthe corner of the ring/room or he'll do a load of leg wrk on u and that really wares u down.

Good luck mate sue.

When I trained in a little group I helped put together in Tokyo, we often shared the room with some Muay Thai guys. After watching them train one night, we told them we thought they were crazy.

After watching us throw each other around the room, they told us that the feeling was mutual.

Michael Hacker (saruo) wrote: we often shared the room with some Muay Thai guys. After watching them train one night, we told them we thought they were crazy. After watching us throw each other around the room, they told us that the feeling was mutual.

After being thrown around alot this evening for 3 hours I kind of think the muay thai guys have a point