applying aikido in real street fights

hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!

Hello, and welcome to aikweb.

We continue to discuss this topic to death in a thead called something like "aikido does not work in a fight" and a bit more recently in some variant lke "fight does not work in aikido" and I'm sure there must be others.

I'll summarize my recollection of them so you can avoid 100 hours of reading through.

1st) aikido doesn't work in a fight
- yes it does
- no it doesn't
(continue that for a long while)

2nd) The solutions to the problem that stylized techniques on symbolic attacks which were designed to not work without tremendous depth come in
- it does work, you are just not training the True aikido like *I* do
(continue that line in the fashion of my dad can beat up your dad for a long while)
- i've already solved this problem in 1 of the following ways and now that I have my mind is mostly closed to any other alternatives:
--training MMA - it's the closest thing to real fighting (no it's not, yes it is, back and forth), we train high percentage techniques unlike aikido (when you muliply the probabilities of facing the double leg in daily life with "high percentage" of effectiveness you get high percentage of wasted life effort), if aikido were good we'd already be using it in cage matches (aikido movement principles can help vrs. "wristy twisty" is nonsense)
--rethink about aikido as a weapons retention system - shihonage makes more sense and basically all techniques that require a certain distance be respected make more sense (argued against MMA, and internal skill development)
--I started training internal skills with one of the folks to claim to be on the "fast track" to teaching them (argued against Internal skils are not displayed in MMA therefore they must have no value as opposed to they are just not commonly available, ending with "I'll believe it when I see it")

3rd) aikido has nothing to do with fighting
- that's not true
- yes it is
(continue that for a shorter while but longer than I expected)
- what is meant by being "effective"? maybe it's just avoiding
- if they are based on "principles" then they are supposed to really work in a real fight even if that isn't what you are interested in doing
- aikido has nothing to do with fighting, but we train in escalating levels which ultimately have us just completely dominating a non-cooperative skilled fighter (followed by so much confusion about that position that I decided I wasn't meant to understand that one and let it go)

It was all interspersed with credentials to support the positions like:
- I am/was an uchideshi
- I am a black belt
- my teacher is the best or whatever
generally as if no one else arguing trained long and hard past 1st degree black belt and/or doesn't think they have found the best training situation.

The bottom line - Trust Rob Liberti's position of course! which is:
a) Aikido worked on all levels then, and can work on all levels now.
b) Find one of the people who can fast track you in Internal Skills and train that along with aikido (taking/not-taking ukemi using the "when in Rome" model)
c) Cross train in MMA because it is fun and interesting, and you'll want to practice internal skills on more things than just aikido waza
...and you can trust me because I trained long and hard, am a certified black belt, and I have the best teachers in the best style(s)

-Rob

If you want to know, how you can react to jabs, hooks and so on, just try it out with a friend, might be great fun.
You cannot defend yourself against a gun.
How realistic are the real life scenarios you are thinking about ?

Lloyd Bianito wrote: hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!

If you have doubts, you need to evaluate your goals and see if your training meets them.

That is the first step. Without realistic goals, you can never know what you are looking for.

So what are you goals?

Do you want to be able to submit or knock out a untrained drunk at 3 months? 3 years? Maybe a trained MMA fighter in 6 weeks, 100 years?

Once you have your goals, look at what you are doing. Then ask "Is what I am doing realistically going to obtain these goals in the time frame I have set?". Then if the answer is no ask "Are my goals realistic for the time frame I have set?". If the answer is no, then re-evaluate your goals. If the answer is yes, then look at what you can change in your training to meet those goals.

You can take this further. Once you have these goals in mind, you can ask your mentors about them. For example, if you want to win a grappling tournament in the next 3 years, you can tell your instructor that. If he says "Well, I really don't think you will learn what you need for competition here." Then you know you need to find a new place to train. Maybe ask him for a referral. If your goal is to be a 120 pound untrained weakling on the street, and your instructor says that is no problem. Ask him how you are progressing towards that goal. What you could be doing to help complete that goal.

Finally, the most important part. Test yourself. At least a few times a month.

if your goal is non-combative. Find ways to test yourself. Maybe you are working on anger management. Focus on being calm in traffic when that guy cuts you off. Did you? Why not? What can you do to help?

Maybe your goal is combative? Ask someone in your club to 'really try' to hit you. Maybe go to another club and take a free class. Jump into their sparing, or even explain to the instructor what your goals are, tell him what you are doing and ask him to evaluate you. You would be surprised with the honesty you can get. Just take it with a grain of salt, he might be on the lookout for new students. Use this time to make friends, not alienate people. Don't use false modesty. Just be honest, try your best, and don't make excuses. Don't put down their art or talk about how your art trains to do X. Just work out, do what they ask, and try your best in their sparing. Then once you have made friends, setup some free play time and work it.

See if a local MMA/bjj/judo club has a open mat night. Try heading to that now and then and explain your goals and ask for help. You would be suprised what people are up for. If someone showed up with a foam bat and asked me to try to hit them while they tried to take it away from me. I would be game, even if it was only a bjj open mat class. As long as the guy was friendly and didn't look like he was trying to be 'better' then I am.

As you can see, my goals have been a lot more combative.

My last piece of advice is to learn. What videos about history, training, theory, etc on your subject. Read books! Spend time talking to those old guys who did the same thing you are trying to do. But remember that part of learning is doubt. Feel free to doubt and feel free to assume you know better. You might not, but you also might know better. For example, I know far better how to warm up a group then my judo coach. I've spent time reading about sports science and talking to my sports doctors and therapists. He is still using the science of the 50's. I don't contradict him, but I make sure to warm myself up properly before class. Feel free to ask them questions, be confrontational, but polite if you must. I feel the last thing most old people want is for people to humor them. Force them to defend their position if you feel it is wrong. Some won't bother, but the ones that do can really teach you something.

So that is all I have right now time wise. But if you are worried about your aikido on the street. Go talk to your coach about it, go read about combat, read about the types of attacks that are common, decide if you know how to deal with it, find places to test that, find out what you have and what you are missing, revise your plan, speak with 3rd parties and your instructor about your plan and goals, and repeat.

Worked for me, period.

Lloyd Bianito wrote: hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation?

I'll answer your question if you will first describe what your "street" is like, and also the typical "real life situation" in which you need to defend yourself. The last time you were attacked, what was it like? One person or multiple people? In your home, in a bar, or on the stereotyped "street"? Did they have weapons? Did they have any fighting skills? What were they after: your car, your wallet, a piece of your hide? Please describe the last...hmm, let's say five times you were attacked, and I'll tell you if aikido is effective.

Nothing "works" in a street fight...if you don't have any Martial Experiance...

William Hazen

My son is a Nidan in Aikido and has been in the art for 14 years. He is internal security for a major retailer and his job is basically to fight for a living (without the referee). I would say that he has been in hundreds of fights with people of all stripes and sizes and in almost every conceivable situation. To my knowledge, he has only claimed to have lost one fight and that was because a huge guy picked him up and slammed him into the ground and then the other security personnel grabbed the guy. In other words, he didn't have a chance to get him and the bell rung. My son has found Aikido effective but he learned that you don't use Aikido techniques but Aikido principles. While he has used many techniques, it is the principle of keep his center that has helped him the most. The fights have been from moderate to intense. He recently got married but he had his wedding pictures taken with three gashes on his face from the last fight. He did win that one too. The guy was a good fighter and was punching fast and hard and in fact hit him in the face three times but a good irimi followed by a modified iriminage cushioned by some soft concrete ended it.

Like many people, your questions aren't based on reality because you haven't had any reality. It would be this way using any martial art. What you see in the movies are just that - movies.
Best wishes,
Jorge

Jorge Garcia wrote: ... My son has found Aikido effective but he learned that you don't use Aikido techniques but Aikido principles. ... Jorge

IMO (whatever that's worth) aikido IS a set of principles NOT a set of techniques.

Jorge,

Is the John Stevens Garcia who appears in Shudokan Aikido website your son?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Jorge, Is the John Stevens Garcia who appears in Shudokan Aikido website your son?

Yes he is.
Jorge

Then things like this:

In order to round out his martial arts abilities and to increase his knowlege of martial arts in general, John has also taken up the study of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under Travis Tooke, an outstanding instructor in this art. He hopes to train in this art for many years to come. John Stephen trains in Aikido as his schedule allows. He trains in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at least once or twice a week.

are relevant, imho, to the OP concerns.

Your son seems to be a young athlete who crostrain in 'alive' arts and works in security.... that makes the difference between him and a abstract '14 years training aikido nidan'.

Jorge Garcia wrote: The guy was a good fighter and was punching fast and hard and in fact hit him in the face three times but a good irimi followed by a modified iriminage cushioned by some soft concrete ended it.

Foul!!!!
This does not count as a real life situation. Real life situations don't have soft concrete unless it was recently poured and still wet. Why were they fighting in wet cement?.


David

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333

This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. etc,etc,etc, ad nauseam.

David

Lloyd Bianito wrote: my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you.

just don't end up in a pin or something. if the guy slaps the cement, you might let him go

:P

Lloyd Bianito wrote: hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!

Well, if we want to push the efficiency argument to its natural conclusion then any martial does not work in a "real fight".

The only thing that works is being willing to do what it takes to win, sprinkled with a good dose of being able to tank up what is coming when you are surprised or you just cock up. (Hopefully, if we not to much unlucky what is coming is tankable).
That does not necessarily mean that you need to be a pit-bull crossed with a jack Russell to have a chance in a fight.
It is more about martial art usually give you way to safely go to a place where you can deliver you technique in relative peace. (Beside the more jack cross pit bull you are the more likely you area to run afoul off mister Plod.)
Any technique delivered out of time and distance, is likely to fail what ever the technique, whatever the art and whatever the weapon.

You are wondereing if aikido would works against a jab, try it with a mate and see where it leads you.

Phil

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Then things like this: are relevant, imho, to the OP concerns. Your son seems to be a young athlete who crostrain in 'alive' arts and works in security.... that makes the difference between him and a abstract '14 years training aikido nidan'.

Good try my friend but you assume wrongly. My son has only months in Brazilian jujitsu and has less than 20 lessons in it. He has never done any sport at all. I home schooled him from grades 1 through 12 and I enrolled him in Aikido when he was 11 years old. He is almost 25 now. On the other hand, he has been in security work for about 5 years and his Aikido was his only influence as far as self defense goes. He has worked at the Airport for TSA but mostly for major retail stores stopping shoplifters. While there are lots of kids involved, he also has a large number of professional criminals stealing flat screen TV's and electronics up to thousands in value (like yesterday). Some of these guys are on probation and will fight hard to get away. The police have to be called every day and it does get plenty rough with situations where they are stopping two and three men and many times, he has been alone. Employees are not allowed to help (due to lawsuits etc) and can only watch.
When he started this kind of work, I followed it with great interest to see how his Aikido would work out and I have been able to see most of his fights that were caught on camera. We talk about them all the time.

In jujitsu, he has done well and everyone there respects his background in Aikido and they can see that his training has him above that of the normal beginners.

The "alive art" that he trained in was Aikido because when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other.

I think it is true that his on the job experience has definitely made improvements in what he does. He was also doing just as well when he started this kind of work and he easily disabled a mugger on a street in west Houston when he was just 15 or 16 years old.

I don't believe though that the art made him just like I don't believe that any art can make someone as far as fighting goes. The arts supplement what ability, desire and training you have. I have always argued though that Aikido is a suitable training method for real self defense for normal people and I have based that largely in part because of what I have seen in my son who operates in an atmosphere above that which a normal person might encounter.

I think that your post reflects you had a bias before you started typing. I do agree with you in part but I do believe that it is the person makes the art and that Aikido is good enough for the average person's self defense needs.

best wishes,
Jorge

David Skaggs wrote: Foul!!!! This does not count as a real life situation. Real life situations don't have soft concrete unless it was recently poured and still wet. Why were they fighting in wet cement?. David

Just a joke I'm sure you know!
Jorge

David Skaggs wrote: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333 This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. etc,etc,etc, ad nauseam. David

Sorry David. I agree and if you look at my info on the side, you can see that I have been around Aikiweb for a while and that I don't post every day. I just pop in on this thread every so often to make the same point I ways do for the folks who in fact don't know that this is a useless and endless argument. It is that though because the general public has some common misconceptions about what martial arts really are and about fighting and self defense in general and unfortunately, it will always be that way.
best wishes,
Jorge

Jorge,

Please, my joke was not intended toward you at all. Recently I was looking at some old Aikiweb posts and found one about does 'Aikido work in a fight' dated I think in 2003. It is never ending argument.

David

Someone poses a question about if Aikido works...

Most say yes...

Some say no...

Lots of semantic nitpicking ensues...

And it's another fine day on the Aikiweb Forums.

William Hazen

Jorge Garcia wrote: I think that your post reflects you had a bias before you started typing. I do agree with you in part but I do believe that it is the person makes the art and that Aikido is good enough for the average person's self defense needs.

Well, my bias is about giving the OP the impresion that 14 years of aikido, without further ellaboration like you did will suffice.

Now you have clarified some relevant points:

- He is in his early 20's: A lot of young untrained males are holding their own in "the street" every day. And disabling muggers even at 16 is not homeric, btw..

- He works in a hard environment where he receives real time feedback about what and how works and what doesn't on almost daily basis. Sink or swim.

- He trains under experienced instructor interested in giving him realistic training: "when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other."

Things like these are what make SD effective aikido. Of course if someone doesn't need or want your son skills, this kind of training has no purpose.

Regards,

Demetrio

Hmm...

Does anyone want to try creating an AikiWiki article to help address this issue in the future? Just a thought.

-- Jun

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Well, my bias is about giving the OP the impresion that 14 years of aikido, without further ellaboration like you did will suffice. Now you have clarified some relevant points: - He is in his early 20's: A lot of young untrained males are holding their own in "the street" every day. And disabling muggers even at 16 is not homeric, btw.. - He works in a hard environment where he receives real time feedback about what and how works and what doesn't on almost daily basis. Sink or swim. - He trains under experienced instructor interested in giving him realistic training: "when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other." Things like these are what make SD effective aikido. Of course if someone doesn't need or want your son skills, this kind of training has no purpose. Regards, Demetrio

Good points.
Jorge