Does anyone truly "learn" anything at a seminar?

Joseph Madden wrote: I guess because I have the best, I don't see the point in going to a seminar. Except for fan worship.

I suppose if you went, then, it would be a case of fan worship.

I sure did at the one I was at last weekend.

You could learn from the formal instruction offered/tips.

You can learn because you get to play with different bodytypes/backgrounds than your dojomates.

Both are very valuable.

Mary Malmros wrote: I suppose if you went, then, it would be a case of fan worship.

Ah, Mary. You are still my idol, after all these years. Never change... you're the best of all of us from the old rec.martial-arts days.

Nafis Zahir wrote: How many of us have seen a technique 1000 times and then on the 1001 time had a light go off? I know I have.

"All memories are not created equal. I was at the front of a large room chairing a session at a scientific meeting in Portland, Oregon when someone came into the room and handed me a slip of paper. The message said simply that President Kennedy had been shot."
‘Memory and Emotion', James McGaugh 2003

The creation of vivid, lasting memories has been termed by psychologists as ‘Flashbulb Memory'.

Michael Kimeda wrote: ya... i go mostly for the beer and pizza.

....good choice.

I'm not convinced that you can learn too much in a seminar - although its not inconceivable that you just might pick up some seed that if cultivated in your own dojo could change everything.

What I do know is that the hands on practice you get with others can tell you a lot about them or their Aikido.

I've met a few Aikiweb chaps on courses over the years and some hands on soon clears up who is good with words and who is good in practice.

I don't expect too much from courses - If I get something thats cool and if not I'll enjoy these secondary benefits of good company, good fun and hopefully good beer.

Cheers

D

I can say from personal experience that Daren is great fun to be with during seminars
I'll see you at Bath in August, Daren!

Cito

Inocencio Maramba wrote: I can say from personal experience that Daren is great fun to be with during seminars I'll see you at Bath in August, Daren! Cito

Cheers Cito.

Met some good people on the kobayashi courses so thumbs up to Jeff and Mac.

I see Mac has forgotten his tai sabaki and is a selected instructor for BAB annual course.

I'll be there to see how his Bristol flavour goes down.

All the best

D

Mike Sigman wrote: Ah, Mary. You are still my idol, after all these years. Never change... you're the best of all of us from the old rec.martial-arts days.

And I'm still a thief -- I stole the estimable Ms. Radner's circus ponies. Damn, but they come in handy!

How's things with you, Mike?

learn good at every seminar, even the bad ones (what not to do). shoshin, mushin and zanshin apply to learning, is it not?

shoshin - leave your previous martial arts experiences at the door
mushin - assume nothing (just because folks wear white belt doesn't mean their experiences are white belt, same go for black belt)
zanshin - aware of everything (including your own ego)

Philip Burgess wrote: . Aikido "stars" are far more generous then Rock and Roll stars. if your open to it.

Not these rock starts. : STS9....... http://sts9.com/?page_id=6.

I've got to throw in my 2 cents here for what its worth (2 cents?

In training in a seminar, even though you you may not learn something new, and the technique may be old hat, practicing with people outside of your dojo always has its merits. I came from a small dojo, where there was never more than a handful of people, and after a while, you do get tired of the lack of diversity. But in a seminar, where you might run into that 6'5" 250 lb partner, your practice changes greatly....as well as your ukemi.

Also, with seminars, you will learn something new, guaranteed, unless you are only going to your own dojo's or groups ...I don't think I can even count the different ways of Irimi nage I have seen.
And if you dont see this, then I would suggest that you do go outside of your dojo's affiliation and you will see a lot of different things.....

Also, take the attitude in a seminar to mimic what that instructor is doing, not what you know the technique to be....

I've seen great diversity in every seminar, even among sensei and student. I've taken a LOT of tricks, and even laughed at times when I went back to my home dojo and showed what I had learned and placed it into practice.....doing that is so much fun and only can add to the depth of your dojo and your aikido.

Sorry I just cant see your viewpoint

Phi Truong wrote: learn good at every seminar, even the bad ones (what not to do). shoshin, mushin and zanshin apply to learning, is it not? shoshin - leave your previous martial arts experiences at the door mushin - assume nothing (just because folks wear white belt doesn't mean their experiences are white belt, same go for black belt) zanshin - aware of everything (including your own ego)

shoshin-Impossible. You CANNOT leave your previous martial arts experience at the door. I don't care how good you think you are.

mushin-Assume nothing. Fair enough.

zanshin-I'm aware of the egos in the room and the fan worship, myself included. I'm also aware that there's not enough space to move.

OSU

Scott Stahurski wrote: I've got to throw in my 2 cents here for what its worth (2 cents? In training in a seminar, even though you you may not learn something new, and the technique may be old hat, practicing with people outside of your dojo always has its merits. I came from a small dojo, where there was never more than a handful of people, and after a while, you do get tired of the lack of diversity. But in a seminar, where you might run into that 6'5" 250 lb partner, your practice changes greatly....as well as your ukemi. Also, with seminars, you will learn something new, guaranteed, unless you are only going to your own dojo's or groups ...I don't think I can even count the different ways of Irimi nage I have seen. And if you dont see this, then I would suggest that you do go outside of your dojo's affiliation and you will see a lot of different things..... Also, take the attitude in a seminar to mimic what that instructor is doing, not what you know the technique to be.... I've seen great diversity in every seminar, even among sensei and student. I've taken a LOT of tricks, and even laughed at times when I went back to my home dojo and showed what I had learned and placed it into practice.....doing that is so much fun and only can add to the depth of your dojo and your aikido. Sorry I just cant see your viewpoint

So,
Your teacher allows you do start doing techniques in class that are completely contrary to the way he teaches you. Also, this idea of diversity. Does everybody come from a dojo where everyone is the same size and shape? And moves the same way? I guess my dojo isn't as cookie cutter as some others. The only thing I have ever taken away from a seminar was where I was invited by one of my senior instructors to an aikikai seminar to see how they move and do techniques in comparison to yoshinkan. Some of the students actually decided to study yoshinkan and left their dojo. No one decided to study aikikai. Nuff said.
This is the last time I'll be replying to my original post.

Seminars- Have fun, drink beer, eat food, meet new people, make some money for the dojo, sweat, recruit some newcomers. As far as learning is concerned......I learn who can handle hashi. I learn who has bigger egos. I've learned that you can't turn a sows ear into a silk purse. For those of you that rely on seminars to augment your training because you come from a small dojo, than yes, you may actually come away with some knowledge (depending on how many seminars you go to). But, a two to three day seminar three times a year......

OSU

Talking about big egos...

Nuff said.

Best,
Ron

I am a musican and have played a tune like "Autumn Leaves" since childhood. I still discover new chord progressions, rhythmic possibilities, voicings, etc. every time I sit down to practice. When I stop to listen to a master like, say, the late Oscar Peterson then my entire conception of the song is expanded or exploded. This is what an Aikido seminar is. Anything less is more likely a comment upon myself and not the instructor.

Joseph,

I'm impressed, you must really know a lot for a nidan!

Perhaps if you think can't learn much of value from seminars, then you should start teaching some? I'm sure lot's of folks would like to learn from somebody who's reached such a level.

Perhaps you could also join in the discussions of internal strength and give us your take on ki & kokyu since most folks seem to agree that Gozo Shioda and some of his better deshi had/have at least some goods in that department?

Al Gtz.

Joseph Madden wrote: So, your going to learn how to play like a great rock guitarist at a seminar? Remember, we are talking about a SEMINAR. And, if you paid attention to my original post you will see that I state that meeting new people is great. I'm not saying that they aren't fun. I'm stating that if you want to truly learn something of any great significance, you won't find it at a seminar. Becoming great at aikido requires more than being merely a fan. OSU And if you felt that having a shihan threaten your life as something significant and worthwhile, than......

A seminar is an opportunity to learn. If an Aikido "star" is doing the seminar his or she is there to teach. How it is taught or what someone gets out of it, is an individual experience. Even if the Sensei sits in a corner never uttering a word, or making a move, I still learn. Yep, from the people around me. Has this ever happened to me, nope. Have I ever disagreed on how the seminar was taught, yep. Was I being limited in my perspective then, yep. If I change my perspective it allows a different angle of learning that I might not have exercised before. Yes, there has been times where I was limited in my thinking and disagreed or wasn't satisfied. But, when I change my perspeceptive it was a wind fall of learning.


I seen on Youtube where Segovia was giving a seminar and all he was doing was admonishing and being overly nit-picky and rudely critical of the players. The students didn't leave in hoards after they watch and heard Segovia rip into and apart the first guitarist to pieces. Nope it was just the opposite, they were eager to go next, to be thrown in the jaws of the lion. Did the learn something, you darn tootin' they did.

It is all about perspective. You can live your life jaded and angry, or not. Life is what you make it.

Joseph,

I can respect your views, I may not agree with them based on that I am a different person and I have had different experiences. I think you got a thorn in your foot.

What gives you the sense that everyone shares the same experience as you do, or sees seminars the same way you do?

We all learn at different rates, have different goals and reasons for doing Aikido, and going to seminars. Shouldn't that be respected?

If we stop and think for a moment and collate all our bad days where we didn't learn anything in the dojo, and didn't look at all the good productive days no one would be doing Aikido.

Sometimes it isn't them (Aikido "Star"), but it is us who have done more damage to ourselves because of our attitudes, because of our unwillingness to be flexible-only wanting it our way, our expectations, and our inability to put ourselves in others shoes. Sometimes it is about us, our selfishness, our self absorbed obsession of our needs and wants, and how we think things should be. Sometimes it isn't them at all, but us. The us who doesn't look in the mirror, or realize it isn't all about us.

Joseph Madden wrote: So, Your teacher allows you do start doing techniques in class that are completely contrary to the way he teaches you.

Aikido is a learning experience, and there are several interpretations....why would you go to a seminar to 'forget' what you have learned? Maybe you learn something about a technique that your instructor didn't know...doesn't mean you have to keep it to yourself....maybe your instructor entierly forgot some minor detail....the list could go on.

If your instructor said that his/her was the 'only' way I'd start looking for another dojo....if there is anything that I have learned about Budo is that you cant know everything.

Also, this idea of diversity. Does everybody come from a dojo where everyone is the same size and shape? And moves the same way? I guess my dojo isn't as cookie cutter as some others.

Lucky you! You can find everything in one dojo! Small dojos can get a little flat....reason 1 to go to a seminar.

The only thing I have ever taken away from a seminar was where I was invited by one of my senior instructors to an aikikai seminar to see how they move and do techniques in comparison to yoshinkan.

So maybe you did learn something from a seminar....

Joseph Madden wrote: ..... I don't see the point in going to a seminar ....

Then don't go to seminars. If you're not required to go and you don't want to go, then don't go. Makes sense to me. Me, I got in the habit of going to seminars with Sifu Dan Inosato and Sifu Fracis Fong and others whil doing Kali, so it's not big deal for me to go to an Aikido seminar. That's me. You go your way, I go mine. Live and let live.

Al Gutierrez wrote: Joseph, I'm impressed, you must really know a lot for a nidan! Perhaps if you think can't learn much of value from seminars, then you should start teaching some? I'm sure lot's of folks would like to learn from somebody who's reached such a level. Perhaps you could also join in the discussions of internal strength and give us your take on ki & kokyu since most folks seem to agree that Gozo Shioda and some of his better deshi had/have at least some goods in that department? Al Gtz.

Have to say I find this a bit sarky.

And when did grade have any bearing on what people are allowed to post here?

Of course its a free forum - anyone can post what they like as long as its inoffensive..so you are entitled to post what you like Al..

I'd just like to say I personally prefer to see people discuss the relative merits of varying forms of training.

In my opinion posts like the one above contribute nothing other than to make me exit this thread.

D

Once upon a time in my training I was given these great words of wisdom. " If you can take one thing home from a seminar, no matter how big or small-good, you've learned something" and to this day, I apply this idea in every aspect of my life.

"Does anyone truly "learn" anything at a seminar?"
Perhaps, you should open your own Dojo - apparently you have mastered all the basics (as well as the hundreds of layers, within each technique)
My favorite classes are the beginners classes. Advance classes are great, but a beginners class is a gold mine.

Daren Sims wrote: Of course its a free forum - anyone can post what they like as long as its inoffensive..so you are entitled to post what you like Al.. I'd just like to say I personally prefer to see people discuss the relative merits of varying forms of training. In my opinion posts like the one above contribute nothing other than to make me exit this thread.

Well, if you've already exited, you won't read this...but I think there's a valid point to be made about beating a dead horse:

1. Person A says, "Category X activity is NFG."
2. Persons B through Z give counterexamples and counter-arguments, all the while conceding that certainly, some instances of category X activity can be pretty bogus.
3. Person A says, "No, no, no, it's all totally NFG."

I don't think anyone expects to convince Joseph of the value of seminars. My own comment, which you could also label as snarky, was intended to point out that if you approach a situation expecting a negative outcome, and you expect to see certain flaws, you're very likely to "see" them and have a negative experience. It is almost impossible to have a positive experience in a situation that you are convinced will be otherwise...which would seem to indicate that you ought to stop belaboring the point and just not have anything to do with that situation.

Mary Malmros wrote: Well, if you've already exited, you won't read this...but I think there's a valid point to be made about beating a dead horse: 1. Person A says, "Category X activity is NFG." 2. Persons B through Z give counterexamples and counter-arguments, all the while conceding that certainly, some instances of category X activity can be pretty bogus. 3. Person A says, "No, no, no, it's all totally NFG." I don't think anyone expects to convince Joseph of the value of seminars. My own comment, which you could also label as snarky, was intended to point out that if you approach a situation expecting a negative outcome, and you expect to see certain flaws, you're very likely to "see" them and have a negative experience. It is almost impossible to have a positive experience in a situation that you are convinced will be otherwise...which would seem to indicate that you ought to stop belaboring the point and just not have anything to do with that situation.

Hi

I came back..just can't keep away I guess. although I did exit so that makes me a man of my word!

Its a free forum Mary - everyone can write what they like and if they want to put a sarky ...(as in sarcastic...is that the same as snarky?) ...slant on it thats cool.

I just prefer it to be wrapped around some argument or counterargument.

Sarky on its own just winds me up a bit.

As a subject I think this is quite an interesting thread - in my own experience I come from an organisation with good structure in teaching and development of students, we have long term strategies in place to develop students and have our own high grade teachers with a lesson to deliver.

Consequently we are not overly reliant on external seminars - I go to plenty to validate my own Aikido, to pick up some hidden gems and to enjoy myself, but I dont expect an instant panacea to my aikido ills...which are plenty.

These require long term treatment mostly within our own organisation.

But I accept that there are others with a different model - years ago when the likes of Tamura came to us on a regular basis we fell over ourselves to get to his seminars and then spent months chewing over tapes of his stuff trying to understand.

I think this has been a good thread so far with different opinions presented , mostly with some validity.

as for your own comment ..I'll dig down for it once I've commited this message and have a read...I thought it would be nearer the bottom of this thread so could refer back to it...Would you like me to let you know if I consider it snarky?

Sounds like you had something to say so I probably wouldn't object to it though.

Happy days.

D

We are PRIMARILY responsible for OUR learning. It is tiresome to hear people complain about what they do not learn with a teacher, in a class, in a seminar,......

I would respectfully ask us to be responsible for our learning. When we do not learn something from a class, a person, a seminar...., it is HIGHLY LIKELY that our minds were simply not open enough to learn. The poster who talked about Shoshin was right on target. I have two philosophical pillars at my school: SHOSHIN- Beginner's Mind (KEEP IT OPEN TO LEARNING); MUSHIN- Empty Mind (KEEP IT CLEAR SO YOU ACTUALLY HAVE ROOM TO LEARN).

If someone cannot learn from a particular person or venue, maybe that person should first address their own issues as to why they are not open to learning, before seeking to place onus/responsibility elsewhere.

Marc Abrams