instructors dating students

Hi, I read the first few threads when they were posted, and just read the last few just now, so if I repeat what anyone has said I apologise.
Instructors dating students is a BAD thing.
This is only my opinion.
1. It can be (can be!) an abuse of power
2. In most cases it is. (From what I've seen)
3. Anything that distracts from pure training is bad.
4. Many students are looking for protection...

As I said, I've read hardly any of these posts. I have seen these situations though.
I would add that I admit I have made a dangerous generalisation, though. Just my opinion.
So I don't agree with it, that's all.
(Keeping it brief...)

Originally posted by mj Instructors dating students is a BAD thing. I would add that I admit I have made a dangerous generalisation, though.

mj,

I agree with your opinion here, even though you know how I feel about general statements.

Jim23
__________________
Remember, all generalizations are false

I know for a fact that everyone in the world feels exactly the same about general statements.

What if your sensei is a wonderful woman? We have been dating for two years and I love her very much. We go through trials and tribulations like other couples but we are still together. I've had no regrets about it. I'm proud to have gotten my shodan under her. Even though she is my girlfriend, she was my sensei first and still is.

Love and Harmony to you all

What if your sensei is a wonderful woman? We have been dating for two years and I love her very much. We go through trials and tribulations like other couples but we are still together. I've had no regrets about it. I'm proud to have gotten my shodan under her. Even though she is my girlfriend, she was my sensei first and still is.

Love and Harmony to you all

I think if the Sensei owns the school then he can do what he wants (within reason of course). But if the school is owned by someone else then the sensei must take some responsiblity for his actions. I don't think this is restricted to dating. This can also be applied to teachers doing business with or borrowing money etc from students.

For most of us, aikido is a social activity. Its an opportunity for many to meet new people and make friends.

As I scanned through the many posts several general themes seemed to emerge.

1. In some, the theme was "this is the martial arts and the ma are about 'power', thus students should learn to acquire their own power". Unfortunately, to me this sounds like the rationalization of predators, be they sexual or otherwise.

Aikido is about the proper use of your "power" (KI) to defend yourself and keep yourself safe. To do anything else is a misuse of KI.

2. In others, one or two of the women posting were told to "calm down" (actually I believe one person said "reread...when you have calmed down"). Why would someone who has been either directly sexually harassed or assaulted or who had witnessed the same suddenly need to "calm down". I have three daughters by marriage. Though I am a "step father" ( a term I hate), all three of my adult daughters mean a great deal to me. If any of them experienced what was detailed above in some of the dojos, I would not expect them or ask them to calm down. In fact one was being harrassed on her job by her "superior" (a very loose use of the word). This jerk's behavior initially caused her a great deal of self doubt as to her thinking she had done something to "invite" it. When her mother told me about it I spoke with her and told her that even if she had "invited it" (by the way she dressed or batted her eyelashes, etc.)it was his reposibility as her superior to NOT ACCEPT the "invitation". As it was, the guy was a jerk, my daughter had done nothing to "invite" his attention outside of being female, and she filed a sexual harrassment complaint to his superiors. He was "laterally transferred" to another department where there were no females, also where he would never advance.

Aikido teaches us to keep our calmness in ourselves. My first Sensei, Ace Atkinson, once said that when he was upset, he would go to his One Point. If his upset disappeared and he calmed down, he knew that he wasn't really upset. However, if he went to his One Point and remained angry/upset, then he really was and needed to take action. Being peaceful does not mean allowing the world to run over you.

As to any "Sensei" dating a student. If they are both the same approximate age and meet outside the dojo and are respectful of each other, then "possibly" it is okay. Otherwise the "Sensei" is on an ego trip and their ticket needs to be cancelled.

Sorry, but as someone who made that particular mistake early in my career, I learned a very hard lesson which I care never to repeat, and strongly encourage those "Sensei" out there who think it is "okay" to truly examine their motives. If you even dimmly suspect you may be doing it because of your ego, then stop. You will ultimately lose your student's respect, then you will lose students (and that is your responsibility, not their "lack of loyalty"), and ultimately, if you have a shred of decency, you will lose your self-respect.

Richard: you have hit on exactly the problem. You suggest that if anyone has even the hint that "ego" is involved, to retreat. These people don't believe they are doing anything wrong, so this flash of insight does not occur. So even if they read this thread, they would not see themselves reflected in its details. That is the truly sad part. In private practice I treat physicians who have crossed this boundary. I assure you, some of them never come to understand it, even though it has meant the loss of their license to practice medicine.

Other posters feel strongly about not allowing yourself to be a victim. Good. Don't be a vicitm, if you can tell that you are about to become one. Where, then, does the predator's responsibility lie?

1. In some, the theme was "this is the martial arts and the ma are about 'power', thus students should learn to acquire their own power". Unfortunately, to me this sounds like the rationalization of predators, be they sexual or otherwise. Aikido is about the proper use of your "power" (KI) to defend yourself and keep yourself safe. To do anything else is a misuse of KI.

If you think I am rationalizing predatory behavior, you are severely mistaken. Chasing an unwilling student is obviously inappropriate, but an initial proposition is not predatory behavior.

Power does not equal Ki, but let's argue about that later.

As to any "Sensei" dating a student. If they are both the same approximate age and meet outside the dojo and are respectful of each other, then "possibly" it is okay. Otherwise the "Sensei" is on an ego trip and their ticket needs to be cancelled.

Why is that "possibly okay"? If some crazy student worships their teacher and can't manage to say no inside of the school, why should their attitude change outside of the school? Does the teacher's ability magically depart once he or she leaves the sacred confines of the dojo?

And why are you bringing age into this discussion?

REK,I see by your post that you work with the one group who are perhaps more egotistical than even self-serving politicians.

Yes, I am aware that those who read this thread who are somehow convinced of their infallibility, will not understand it one bit. However, I do not necessarily chalk that up to their being "Sensei". I am more likely to think that such people pursue positions of authority and perceived power because they are already convinced they are infallible.

As to my comment about if both the Sensei and the student being the same age and respectful, etc. I said "possibly" this might be okay simply because the Sensei-Student phenomenon may not be any different from the Summer Camp Romance phenomenon. Sometimes relationships are defined by a particular context. Once that context is changed, the relationship may not survive. Two people have to have other interests in one another besides their love of nikkyo. Thus, even when there are some more commonalties between the people involved beyond Aikido, it still may not be proper for them to have a relationship because their interest in one another is of a limited sort.

Of course, if the Sensei is just another sexual predator, then I doubt they have any inkling what a relationship is.

KI is a particular type of power, just as is electricity, light, wind, breathing, etc. With the development of power, strength, ability comes a concomittant duty to exercise such properly and responsibly.

REK, I do not accept that just because a person may seem to be a "victim personality" that soemhow the predator is absolved of behaving responsibly. I know this is not what you probably meant, however, a predator will automatically read it as a justification for being a predator. I am talking about human beings with some level of rationality, not lions and lambs.

From my perspective, at no point should a Sensei get involved with their students in an intimate manner. I also recognize that we sometimes meet people in Aikido with whom we resonate profoundly. However, such resonance is infrequent and if true will allow for the development of a healthy relationship over a period of time. But this is different from jumping into the sack with a student because the "Sensei" wants to.

REK, I realize that I have addressed both your post and "Unregistered". By no means have I confuse yours with theirs.

REK,I see by your post that you work with the one group who are perhaps more egotistical than even self-serving politicians.

You'll understand if I don't respond directly to that

Yes, I am aware that those who read this thread who are somehow convinced of their infallibility, will not understand it one bit. However, I do not necessarily chalk that up to their being "Sensei".

Agreed. Positions of power/authority, by definition, attract a certain type. (But not just one type....)


REK, I do not accept that just because a person may seem to be a "victim personality" that soemhow the predator is absolved of behaving responsibly. I know this is not what you probably meant, however, a predator will automatically read it as a justification for being a predator. I am talking about human beings with some level of rationality, not lions and lambs.

It is not what I meant. Congruent with your statement, I hold that a victim's possession of a "victim personality" IS used as justification by most predators. This is the nature of psychopathy and antisocial mental templates, be they owned by sensei, physician, police officer, professor, spiritual guide, etc.

Thanks for the feedback, Richard.

Rob

Originally posted by REK [b]REK,I see by your post that you work with the one group who are perhaps more egotistical than even self-serving politicians. You'll understand if I don't respond directly to that

Gee, Rob, why not?

Our Sensei has been dating the same student ( after she joined the dojo) for several years. The problem lies in the fact that she is extremely insecure and is quite certain that people are talking about her all of the time.
Like we don;t have a job, life, kids or any thing else to discuss...... When she has personal issues with other students, she runs to Sensei and the other student finds him(or her)self hauled into his office for a brutal two hour "discussion" about "peer etiquette". This generates conversation
amongst the students, Sensei is confirmed in the fact that we are "gossiping" about her and another witchhunt begins.
Malcontents can leave or be fired. Does dating students flip out
Sensei's that much? He has made it very clear that she outranks all yudansha in the dojo.
Quite frankly, we're not sure what to do. Do we leave or try to discuss this behavior? He has been unwilling to listen to other views up to this point.

Thea, try and get the students to get them to marry. Your troubles will end.
Seriously, watch yourself after posting this on the web. It may not be taken well. On the other hand I might be wrong.
Peace.

I'm quite sure that caution is required. It's too bad because
we all really care about him ( and her, too) but the pressure in the dojo has become quite unbearable. I feel sorry for her -
being Senseis girlfriend must put one in a delicate situation
just by the nature of the thing.

You all pay to be there?

Leave the damn dojo. Everyone. Today.

You're there to train, not to be involved in a soap opera.

Originally posted by Thea Sand Snipped!

There are at least 20 dojos in the East Bay with many different styles of Aikido represented. It shouldn't take long to find a new dojo.

It's not worth it.

I'm sure most here will agree, it's very hard to leave a club once you've been there a while. However, I've had to do it, and it IS relatively painless once you've done it.
Students deserve at least as much respect as Sensei...
Or if you don't want to leave, a few frank words may clear the air. (Or make you have to leave anyway ) This sounds too much like ego influencing the dojo.
Again, good luck. Just don't accept the status quo

When she has personal issues with other students, she runs to Sensei and the other student finds him(or her)self hauled into his office for a brutal two hour "discussion" about "peer etiquette"

During my stint as "teacher's pet" at the dojo I have been discussing, i made the mistake of relating some comment one of the other students had made (about something that happened at a seminar) to the sensei, because i thought he would find it amusing. instead, he said "XX shouldn't say things like that" and dragged XX in for, you guessed it, a one hour lecture on the inappropriateness of gossiping in the dojo. I was horrified. Several months later when I relayed another thing someone else said, sensei got all bent out of shape and told me that he was going to have a word with that student. By this time I was no longer teachers pet and told this student someone might want to have a word with you. This student never did get a talking to, but his attitude was "ha! let him talk to me". It may be possible that the sensei's girlfriend is not seeking this result, on the other hand, she may be enjoying her priviledged position. The effect it had on me, perhaps a deliberate effect, was isolation from the other students. Not cool.

Yes, thankfully we have many wonderful dojos to choose from in our location. It is still painful however much a soap opera
it may be. There are many hours invested in a community ( and Sensei) that we still care deeply about. <sigh>

I understand... it's a damn shame

Originally posted by Thea Sand Our Sensei has been dating the same student ( after she joined the dojo) for several years. ....When she has personal issues with other students, she runs to Sensei and the other student finds him(or her)self hauled into his office for a brutal two hour "discussion" about "peer etiquette". ....He has made it very clear that she outranks all yudansha in the dojo. Quite frankly, we're not sure what to do. Do we leave or try to discuss this behavior? He has been unwilling to listen to other views up to this point.

Thea-
A couple things here.
1. Your Sensei's responsibility is to the whole dojo.
2. Her running to him with her difficulties, while natural enough from one context, is definitely inappropriate in this context. She should be confronting the people in the dojo directly.
3. His bringing people into his office for a discussion on peer etiquette because of her problems is flat out wrong and is obviously "poisoning the well" in the dojo.
4. It is up to all of the yudansha to live up to their rank by confronting Sensei directly. This is never easy and requires that all of the yudansha be in agreement as to what the issues are and how they would like them resolved. Simply blaming the girl friend will not accomplish anything.
5. Does she really out rank everybody, or is this your Sensei's way of indicating she is more precious to him than the rest of you?

This is yet another case where Senseis dating students is not a good idea.

If you have paid for training, stay there until next time to pay, then find another dojo to train in. I've seen this before and it will only get worse before it gets any better. This is pure BS. I suggest you leave AND let the sensei know why you are leaving. Also, don't drag other members into it. Make your actions your own......

Good luck!

Thank you all for your support. We have written a letter stating our issues to Sensei. We were very careful not to be accusitory or negative toward Sensei in any way, but we will not be returning. The atmosphere in the dojo is becoming more an more difficult to deal with. The GF is an Ikkyu and has trained
( at the same dojo) for about three years.

What is the general feeling about Sensei testing the GF (boyfriend or spouse) ? Should they be tested outside of the dojo
by an impartial party? Do former GF's feel that their rank held the same weight when their training situation changed?

It must be a lonely place.

Originally posted by Unregistered ...We have written a letter stating our issues to Sensei. We were very careful not to be accusitory or negative toward Sensei in any way, but we will not be returning. The atmosphere in the dojo is becoming more an more difficult to deal with. The GF is an Ikkyu and has trained at the same dojo) for about three years. What is the general feeling about Sensei testing the GF (boyfriend or spouse) ? Should they be tested outside of the dojo by an impartial party? Do former GF's feel that their rank held the same weight when their training situation changed?

1. Unless you cannot stand it anymore, even then, you "owe" the Sensei your presence. This will be important after he receives the letter as it will take away his knee jerk excuse that your letter represented a "hit and run". Put the onus on him to take responsibility, just as you have taken yours.

2. The fact the girlfriend is an Ikkyu and is perceived to hold "higher rank" than the yudansha, will remain a problem as long as the Sensei refuses to listen to anyone else.

3. Should Senseis promote their loved ones? Yes, up to Ikkyu. For Shodan and above it is always best to have other high ranks from the organization to conduct and supervise the exams. It will become immediately apparent in such a circumstance whether the Sensei's prior promotions of the loved one were deserved. This is only fair to the loved one's long term involvement in Aikido, regardless if they remain with "Sensei" or not.