Why do some people hate Aikido?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Want a third one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YRxTnAxsg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZm4VrjyB1A (a spaniard mentalist) Depends on what do you want to achieve. PS: another interesting clip http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/...fu_mind_punch/

And what you want to believe

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Not degrading just questioning it..... You still haven't explained your "ki" to me........ So who really has the doubts .... I wonder?? I'm not a "tough" guy as you so wrongly put it but a realist who sees life for what it really is..... I bleed and bruise just like the rest of you and have experienced that in real life. I'm not proud of it .... it was either that or a poor young lady police officer possibly kicked to death, now that would have been irresponsible of me to ignore and think of my "ki"........ Not the only time either...... just been a bit unlucky I suppose..... it has a tendency to come looking for me...... One day the same may happen to you, I hope it doesn't for your sake......

ahh, passive aggressive 101, it just keeps getting better Tony.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Want a third one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YRxTnAxsg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZm4VrjyB1A (a spaniard mentalist) Depends on what do you want to achieve. PS: another interesting clip http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/...fu_mind_punch/

Hi Demetrio -

In the first video it's not what she's doing so much as what's being said to the guy trying to lift her. The suggestion has been planted that this time it will be different ("try to lift her"). The dude has been set up to fail and very nicely obliges. Ditto the second guy and second video (though I don't speak Spanish, the gist was fairly obvious). Let's call the third metaphor suggestion and note it as being psychological.

The third video clearly illustrates what I call faith based action at a distance. Now if the guy can replicate the experiment with the little Italian chemist of the Dillman video...

Best,

Ron

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: nothing to do with freedom..... I feel free because I do not believe in such nonsense, as you would have me believe Mary?

It's a joke, son, a joke...although I guess you had to be there, and now it's not a very funny one. Sigh.

Henry Ellis wrote: I am not sure what you think ` it ` is ? Here is the link to what `it` really is http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/...armony-With-Ki Henry Ellis http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

OH no! It IS what I thought it 'is' . I didnt watch all 8 mins though ... maybe something Aikido-ey happened later?

I used to do something sorta like that, except just with one, not a ribbon but a slightly stretchy cord and a pointed weight (rubber - which later had to be covered with thick foam, "Hey! That rubber thing still HURTS you know!") on one end, the movement was a bit more direct and less fluid

Mark Freeman wrote: Of course there is no magic here. Unraiseable body can be taught to just about anybody. I taught it to my 5 year old daughter shortly after I learnt it myself. It is simply a matter of mind/body co-ordination, relaxation and a correct frame of mind. I agree with the point that correct body mechanics are central to what makes aikido work, by that I mean, posture, connection to the ground through the centre and a relaxed musculature. However, the importance of the mind cannot be left out of the equation. I think this is where there the grey area of what 'ki' is, can and can't do. There are those who pooh pooh the whole idea of 'ki' and those who seem to attribute it to everything that is. I don't know what the truth of the whole matter is. For me it provides something for my mind to work with, so if I am instructed to 'extend ki' I take it as an instruction to extend my mind beyond my body. It works for me, so I will keep doing that until something better comes along. My teacher once asked the class if anyone could explain what 'ki' is and someone put their hand up, so he was invited to share his thoughts with the class. When he had finished, my teacher said "I'm glad you know, because I have no idea what it is...(and he added with a smile and a wink) but I know how to use it!" Ki cannot be disproven and at the moment we have no way of proving it either, so the discussions will continue... As for the visiting 'ki' aikido person who couldn't deliver the goods, maybe he was just not very good. I have had visitors who have come from other styles of aikido that are flummoxed by the fact that they can't throw me when they try (they are not used to non resistant following and someone remaining on balance), and the harder they try the worse it gets for them and the potentials for reversals are obvious. In other words, they are not that good either. Although I am comfortable with the term ki as it provides a frame of reference for my not very bright mind, I have not encountered anything mystical or magical in my aikido practice. Just many things that I have not known how to explain for many years until I could replicate them. regards, Mark

Hmmm ... Thats quiet a good way of looking at it IMO. I see it as a metaphor. My most recent teacher doesnt use the word Ki, he just says "extend' or 'extend your energy'.

Henry Ellis wrote: Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.

So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl? This flummoxes me as I have seen it myself. I cant do the unliftable body mysel but I showed this girl how to do it. I held an Aikido session at a festival I was at. First day about 10 people turn up. I (for some reason still unknown to me) get this girl to do this exercise, she is the slightest in the class, and get 2 guys, the biggest. And now, here is the WIERD thing, they get her feet about an inch of the ground but they cant go more, you can see them stuggling and exerting. The girl opens her eyes, seems shocked and up she goes, lifted by the guys effortlessly.

I have no idea awhat is going on with that and I certainly cant do it ... but I was able to instruct her how to do it.

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: You are just as delusional as the people in the video .... see if they can actually do it you before producing such crap!!!! I had this tried on me and nothing happened .... something about me not being receptive or some such bullshit

Ah, but Tony. you have to learn to attack properly ... like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugI_SBOkh4&NR=1

Michael Wilson wrote: So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl?

Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long...

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiph...nraisable-body

Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain

Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.

Jason Casteel wrote: ahh, passive aggressive 101, it just keeps getting better Tony.

As you wish.....

Ron Ragusa wrote: Hi Demetrio - In the first video it's not what she's doing so much as what's being said to the guy trying to lift her. The suggestion has been planted that this time it will be different ("try to lift her"). The dude has been set up to fail and very nicely obliges. Ditto the second guy and second video (though I don't speak Spanish, the gist was fairly obvious). Let's call the third metaphor suggestion and note it as being psychological. The third video clearly illustrates what I call faith based action at a distance. Now if the guy can replicate the experiment with the little Italian chemist of the Dillman video... Best, Ron

Ha, a fung-fu 'expert' tried that on me. lift my arm ... now try to lift the other. Then spent 7 minutes TRYING to convince me I felt a difference.. When I did the exoeriment with the girl and two guys I said nothing, I nodded and motioned my hands 'up' ie. lift her. They couldnt.

Anthony Loeppert wrote: Some one else on the thread already posted this (which I didn't know until I just read the link today) so I'll repost it since this thread is so long... http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiph...nraisable-body Ah physics... is there anything you can't explain Internalizing this so you feel and know what to do (apparently) takes practice but that is true for any other aikido technique. I've never tried it myself... maybe something to try before/after a class.

Yes, Ive done a printout, its a takeaway for sure!

Michael Wilson wrote: Ah, but Tony. you have to learn to attack properly ... like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugI_SBOkh4&NR=1

Michael Wilson wrote: So what IS going on here??? Why cant two burley guys lift a little light girl? This flummoxes me as I have seen it myself. I cant do the unliftable body mysel but I showed this girl how to do it. I held an Aikido session at a festival I was at. First day about 10 people turn up. I (for some reason still unknown to me) get this girl to do this exercise, she is the slightest in the class, and get 2 guys, the biggest. And now, here is the WIERD thing, they get her feet about an inch of the ground but they cant go more, you can see them stuggling and exerting. The girl opens her eyes, seems shocked and up she goes, lifted by the guys effortlessly. I have no idea awhat is going on with that and I certainly cant do it ... but I was able to instruct her how to do it.

Next time hold the "girl" person below the hips and then lift, using your legs to do the lifting!! they will go up believe it, unless they weigh 300 pounds or so....
Then you might struggle a bit.....

Have done this trick and it only works when one tries to lift from under the armpits, plus all the other tricks that go along with it....

Michael Wilson wrote: Hmmm ... Thats quiet a good way of looking at it IMO. I see it as a metaphor. My most recent teacher doesnt use the word Ki, he just says "extend' or 'extend your energy'.

I would use the expression, follow through..... using your natural body weight to extend an uke....

Mary Malmros wrote: It's a joke, son, a joke...although I guess you had to be there, and now it's not a very funny one. Sigh.

Oh sorry, maybe you should take lessons on how to tell jokes using "ki" .....

Don't you think there is a difference in learning how to have weight underside and tossing around balls of ki?
Mary

Stan Baker wrote: so who is teaching the methodology stan

you

Michael Wilson wrote: OH no! It IS what I thought it 'is' . I didnt watch all 8 mins though ... maybe something Aikido-ey happened later? I used to do something sorta like that, except just with one, not a ribbon but a slightly stretchy cord and a pointed weight (rubber - which later had to be covered with thick foam, "Hey! That rubber thing still HURTS you know!") on one end, the movement was a bit more direct and less fluid

Michael

You disappoint me, I was waiting for someone brave enough to watch the video to the end to see what else could possibly happen ?? At my age it could be considered a health hazzard

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Next time hold the "girl" person below the hips and then lift, using your legs to do the lifting!! they will go up believe it, unless they weigh 300 pounds or so.... Then you might struggle a bit..... Have done this trick and it only works when one tries to lift from under the armpits, plus all the other tricks that go along with it....

Surely the purpose of this exercise is to show that by harmonising with another - practicing aikido - we can prevent them from moving us; and that although in any one exercise we might be gripped in a certain place (the wrist, or the lapel, or from behind), somebody adept at aikido can be grabbed in any place and still not be moved/practice aikido?

Hence the tests of this kind I have heard that o'sensei submitted to: one with a renowned sumo wrestler - where he knelt on the ground, and invited the man to push his head in order to move him; and one with Kenshiro Abbe on a train, where he invited him to break his finger - and threw Kenshiro Abbe to the floor.

Mary Eastland wrote: Don't you think there is a difference in learning how to have weight underside and tossing around balls of ki? Mary

Depends on how much baggage you carry underside kiddo....

Graham Jenkins wrote: Surely the purpose of this exercise is to show that by harmonising with another - practicing aikido - we can prevent them from moving us; and that although in any one exercise we might be gripped in a certain place (the wrist, or the lapel, or from behind), somebody adept at aikido can be grabbed in any place and still not be moved/practice aikido? Hence the tests of this kind I have heard that o'sensei submitted to: one with a renowned sumo wrestler - where he knelt on the ground, and invited the man to push his head in order to move him; and one with Kenshiro Abbe on a train, where he invited him to break his finger - and threw Kenshiro Abbe to the floor.

A simple matter of bodily isometrics and re diverting the pushing through your own body into the ground....
I get my son to do it to me, who weighs 250 lbs is 6' 2" tall to my
5' 7" and 197 lbs .... the finger one is not as difficult as you would think.....
Tricks, that anyone can do if you learn them....

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: A simple matter of bodily isometrics and re diverting the pushing through your own body into the ground.... I get my son to do it to me, who weighs 250 lbs is 6' 2" tall to my 5' 7" and 197 lbs .... the finger one is not as difficult as you would think..... Tricks, that anyone can do if you learn them....

Yeah, I know; but it works, doesn't it? So tricks or not, they are the basis of aikido, and effective.
You might know a counter for an aikido technique - but then there will be an aikido counter, etc.

Graham Jenkins wrote: Yeah, I know; but it works, doesn't it? So tricks or not, they are the basis of aikido, and effective. You might know a counter for an aikido technique - but then there will be an aikido counter, etc.

Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Of course, but think of them as demonstrations to using bodily mechanics as to the woo woo that many allude to on this site.....

Yes, exactly: they are demonstrations of the abstract principles that underlie aikido - and are demonstrated (or: should be) in order to illustrate this.

Obviously there is no evidence for claims of supernatural causes of these 'powers', and I haven't seen anyone claiming to the contrary here (not that I read a lot of what is said...).

I do recall reading an interview with Koichi Tohei, incidentally, in which he said that, when giving a demonstration one day, and after a night of heavy drinking - still suffering the effects - o'sensei said 'The spirits/gods will not enter you in that state.' - meaning that he wouldn't be able to do aikido due to the lack of spiritual aid.
He could, of course...