New school, some concerns

So, I'm new to Aikido. Picked one school in my area out of 3 to start in. I have other martial arts training in different styles over the years. I have some concerns with my school. I realize that I will not be Steven Segal anytime soon. But I kind of feel like the school I am at is somewhat limited in its teaching.

As a new student, very little has been explained to me about how to properly do techniques. I get very little one on one time with the sensei. There are many lower belts, varying in level of ability and teaching aptitude. Most are nice, some get irritated with me. Overall its been a good experience so far.
So, I apologize for this next part as I butcher this. But I kind of feel like the Sensei, whom is a 4th Dan, has a very limited curriculum. I am taking Aikido because its cool, and the art is very interesting, and for self-defense. I do have other self-defense stuff under my belt. But I watch the stuff these guys are using on YouTube with high falls and such, and wonder why we are not doing any of this stuff in our class. I do realize it is dangerous, but we are doing stuff like Tenshinage and the like repeatedly. And why this is all well and good, it seems very limited.

I realize it takes years to learn and practice Aikido properly. I guess I'm just worried I picked the wrong dojo. There are 2 other options in my area, which I may explore. The sensei does try to keep it self-defense oriented. However, I do see some things lacking, especially coming straight off a Krav Maga background. While we don't spar, it would be more practical to implement some of these techniques in realistic fight scenarios on the street.

Thoughts anyone, so the white belt who is a little lost.

Joe

Joe Patach wrote: So, I'm new to Aikido. Picked one school in my area out of 3 to start in. I have other martial arts training in different styles over the years. I have some concerns with my school. I realize that I will not be Steven Segal anytime soon. But I kind of feel like the school I am at is somewhat limited in its teaching.

I have to ask: you've been training how long, exactly?

Joe Patach wrote: As a new student, very little has been explained to me about how to properly do techniques.

Like most physical skills, aikido doesn't really lend itself to abstract verbal explanations, nor can it be explained in terms of some other martial art that you may know. It's different and must be learned through experience. It's quite likely that your sensei is capable of giving an abstract verbal explanation of this or that technique, but to someone with no experience and no background in aikido, the explanation wouldn't make any sense. It's like asking a chemistry professor, "Explain heterocyclic compounds to me" when you're two days into your very first intro chem class.

Joe Patach wrote: I get very little one on one time with the sensei.

Most likely, more one on one time would not help you very much at this point. Practice is what you need.

Joe Patach wrote: I am taking Aikido because its cool, and the art is very interesting, and for self-defense.

The second reason is a good one to train: because you find it interesting. The other two, notsomuch. Nobody thinks aikido is "cool"; it's dorky. It will not get you chicks. As for self-defense, being able to use aikido effectively for self-defense takes quite a while. If you are in danger, you should be seeking out more immediate, practical solutions, not starting a new martial art.

Joe Patach wrote: But I watch the stuff these guys are using on YouTube with high falls and such, and wonder why we are not doing any of this stuff in our class. I do realize it is dangerous, but we are doing stuff like Tenshinage and the like repeatedly. And why this is all well and good, it seems very limited.

You're not ready to be doing high falls. Doing simple ushiro ukemi from tenchinage trains you in the fundamental skills that you need to have first.

Joe Patach wrote: I realize it takes years to learn and practice Aikido properly. I guess I'm just worried I picked the wrong dojo. There are 2 other options in my area, which I may explore. The sensei does try to keep it self-defense oriented. However, I do see some things lacking, especially coming straight off a Krav Maga background. While we don't spar, it would be more practical to implement some of these techniques in realistic fight scenarios on the street.

Realistic fight scenarios on the street? When was the last time you were attacked on the street? Who attacked you? How many? Why were they attacking you? Did they have weapons? Did they have any training? Where was it, what time of day was it? Before seeking a solution (or discarding a potential solution as flawed), first define the problem.

To me, it all boils down to this: practicing aikido only makes sense if you enjoy the practice. If you don't, don't do it. Any benefits that you might hope to get out of it, you can probably achieve more directly through some other means. So if you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

Explore. Follow your curious nose.

OK. I hope this makes sense.

a) There is nothing wrong with exploring all the schools and seeing which one appeals to you.

b) This is more of a question. Does your teacher teach his/her advanced students the things you are looking for? If so, I'd say you just haven't done it because you're not ready for it yet. However, there are some places that don't do them at all, and that is a valid thing to investigate.

c) There is nothing wrong with doing tenchinage over and over. I've spent whole classes on it as both a student and as a teacher. I'm entering my 17th year of aikido this year, and I still haven't got it 100% figured out.

d) I teach the beginners classes at my dojo, so here is my perspective on teaching high breakfalls. They take time and you need to work up to them. In addition, some students take to them straight away and others will take years to get there, if they ever do. That's fine, and as a teacher, you have to live with that. Now what I do as a teacher is I get people to start the exercises to build up to that sort of thing from day one. However, those exercises in and of themselves are not at all flashy. Once the students are comfortable with one set of exercises, I move them on to the next set and so on. With a group of students who started about a year ago, I have them falling from hip throws and doing no-handed break falls from jujigarami, although I would not say they are confident. However, they are safe and competent. Having said that, I have a few students who have been training a bit longer, who still struggle to do a smooth forward roll.

e) I also started aikido because it looks cool, and practicing high falls is a lot of fun. I still get a rush of adrenaline every time. It's not what I would consider to be at the heart of what aikido is all about, but I enjoy it.

Thanks for picking apart my post Ibb, that was really helpful by the way.

I have taken different arts that are more self defense based (BJJ - Gracie Combatives and now Krav Maga), but it seems like Aikido does not practice that. I realize there is no competition. But in Krav, we do practical street applications and behaviors with punches, kicks, knives, and guns.

Perhaps it is as you say, that I need many years of experience in order to appreciate the value of these techniques. I just feel like my instructor is focusing on beginning aspects of instruction only. I dont know what I'm going to do at this point. I feel a little lost to be honest. Perhaps I will look at other schools. I tried a Judo class in my area and that scared the crap out of me. Adult Judo randori was brutal. Students were getting injured and the higher belts were beating up on the lower belts.

And 'cool' would be my non-technical reply for how I feel about the art. Perhaps interesting would be a better term.

Joe, PATIENCE, Grasshopper... Rome was not built in a day. Your Aikido won't be, either. Strong Aikido skills cannot be built without a strong foundation. This means seemingly endless practice on the fundamentals. Even the most experienced of us regularly practice the basics. Generally, your teacher(s) will get a feel for your training needs and your grasp of the basics, and bring you along at whatever speed is indicated. Give him time to do this. If it doesn't happen, then explore other options. You will know when you've found the right fit for you, but none of them will become optimum without a healthy dose of patience.

Joe Patach wrote: As a new student, very little has been explained to me about how to properly do techniques. I get very little one on one time with the sensei. There are many lower belts, varying in level of ability and teaching aptitude. Most are nice, some get irritated with me. Overall its been a good experience so far. So, I apologize for this next part as I butcher this. But I kind of feel like the Sensei, whom is a 4th Dan, has a very limited curriculum. I am taking Aikido because its cool, and the art is very interesting, and for self-defense. I do have other self-defense stuff under my belt. But I watch the stuff these guys are using on YouTube with high falls and such, and wonder why we are not doing any of this stuff in our class. I do realize it is dangerous, but we are doing stuff like Tenshinage and the like repeatedly. And why this is all well and good, it seems very limited. e

1. Aikido have a pretty limited curriculum.
2. Doing a lot of basic waza of the majority of the class are rather inexperienced seems like an excellent choice by your teacher.

Joe Patach wrote: Thanks for picking apart my post Ibb, that was really helpful by the way. I have taken different arts that are more self defense based (BJJ - Gracie Combatives and now Krav Maga), but it seems like Aikido does not practice that. I realize there is no competition. But in Krav, we do practical street applications and behaviors with punches, kicks, knives, and guns. Perhaps it is as you say, that I need many years of experience in order to appreciate the value of these techniques. I just feel like my instructor is focusing on beginning aspects of instruction only. I dont know what I'm going to do at this point. I feel a little lost to be honest. Perhaps I will look at other schools. I tried a Judo class in my area and that scared the crap out of me. Adult Judo randori was brutal. Students were getting injured and the higher belts were beating up on the lower belts. And 'cool' would be my non-technical reply for how I feel about the art. Perhaps interesting would be a better term.

I'll echo "patience"... I came to aikido in 1993 after an injury-induced hiatus from judo. While the judo helped with falls, the movement patterns learned in competitive training for judo doesn't really help (well, didn't help me) learn to move well for aikido. It took quite a while to learn to move the way aiki-folks think is "right" - if I ever did... Although it did save my bacon a little while ago in a "feet-snagged-trip-fall-emergency-roll" rather than face-first splat on a concrete factory floor.

Your background in BJJ and K-M will help you in learning, but try as much as you can to start with an empty cup. You're there to learn aikido and compare it to aikido, not to compare it to BJJ or K-M. After you've developed a level of familiarity with aikido that you can "respond" in an aiki-sort of way, then you may find places where the other arts can feed into your aikido and augment it. But to do that you first have to be there with the "I don't know anything" mind and learn aikido. The other training is still part of you and your trained responses to various things may or may not help you learn aikido - try to do the movements as taught.

Having the other activities in your background may help you perceive why certain movements work or may help you better interpret what the sensei is doing than someone without the background.

All that said - have a look at the other schools, too - I've practiced at 6 different dojo in different cities in Canada and New Zealand, and no two instructors are the same. One may have "street" experience (one of mine did) and be able to teach pistol retention, pistol disarming and all the regular aikido stuff. One may not "get" any of that. One might "flow." One might be stiff and wooden. One might have a karate background before starting aikido - which will colour what you're taught, and how. One might do "no touch" aikido by waving fingers and stuff expecting you to fall over because he looked at you funny (guess which one to avoid)...

After you've "guest" practiced and/or observed at a few places you'll be better able to decide.

I can safely say that I have found an alternative school to my liking. After visiting another school in the area, I have found what I am looking for! I was particularly impressed right away with the instructors and the method of instruction. This style is harder than the previous version I was working with. A mixture of high and low falls. And everybody seemed very nice, and a bit cheaper on the price.

It will be a harder version of Aikido, but I think this will benefit me in the long run. I was unable to understand what the technique was that he was doing when I watched a class. But the uke punched with one hand which was blocked, and then the other hand. The sensei blocked the second one and somehow deflected it downward. And with this motion he make the uke flip head over heels onto the floor. Needless to saw I was very impressed, if not a bit scared to try.

Will let you know how it goes, but I think this will work out fine for me. Thanks all for listening.

Congrats on finding a school to your liking. What did they say/do to address your concern that there's no sparring in Aikido (as practiced in most schools)?

I'm also curious as to why you left Krav Maga/BJJ to do Aikido even though you knew there would be less sparring.

I am looking to start Aikido myself and have been visiting dojos as well. Aikido has a type of pressure testing called "randori" - multiple attacker drills. Randori is controlled to various degrees but you still have to deal with opponents that do stuff that may be unpredictable. I have only seen one dojo where randori was done in a beginner-level class - in that scenario, the attackers simply walked towards the "tori" (defender) and the tori had to avoid being trapped by the crowd. At another dojo, the randori was done in an all-black-belt class, with attackers allowed to grab or strike at the tori. For this session, everyone was asked to move at half-speed. The instructor explained that the dojo does not allow anyone below 2nd-kyu level to do randori because they have found inexperienced students tend to get overly competitive, leading to injuries. I noticed that multiple training partners coming at you with attacks, even at half speed, tends to raise the stress level quite a bit in the tori, even if the attackers are trying to help the tori by telegraphing their attacks (eg. obvious windup for a punch) . The tori's breathing is not as relaxed, footwork gets sloppier, etc.

Joe Patach wrote: I realize that I will not be Steven Segal anytime soon.

One Steven Segal is quite enough.

I think by the time you have trained enough to have Sensei demonstrate techniques on/with you...you will understand more as to why this doesn't happen 'out of the gate'

So, for the many responses, I will try to tie this up succinctly. I stopped doing Gracie Combatives because only 1 school in another city taught this course. This was self defense based, not sportive BJJ. Once you got your blue belt in BJJ, then you would proceed to the sportive aspect. Due to cost and travel distance, this was not going to work long term. I did however grasp the basic concepts needed for ground fighting.

As far as Krav Maga is concerned. I did enjoy it when I started, they used real life scenarios. Chokes, knife/gun attacks, sparring, punching and blocking, that sort of thing. But within a few months I had learned all the material, and the school only taught level 2 curriculum, which was limited. So while it was good stuff, there is not growth at some point.

I am interested in this new school due to many factors. First, they do both basic and high falls. I felt that this was lacking from the other school. Second, I was watching in the room with a dozen black belt level students. The main sensei was 6th Dan and the current school sensei was 5th Dan. He was very impressive in his display of techniques. I found them to be very realistic and precise. He explained these scenarios in a real world aspect such as how fights start as far as getting in someone's face, pushing, then punching. The technique went of from there. They discussed alternate techniques that could be used in the moment if they did not get the correct technique. He also has a wide background in other martial arts. So basically I was impressed.

In regards to the randori, I watching some you tube vids on steps to work on your randori. Starting out with basic movements and blocking, working slowly with two uke. Eventually you work up the good stuff. It was very interesting. And yes there is no sparring. But I hope to one day eventually incorporate this into my own practice of some sparring and real world scenarios. But this would have to done very carefully. Full speed Aikido would be super dangerous!

Hi, so I noticed that you evaded the "how long have you been training" question a bit which is a little disconcerting, you are a self-confessed new student and want to jump into high falls right away. First remember that this has to be a gradual progression, most dojos and senseis I have met would not really dream of teaching high falls to anyone below 6 months of training except in a very controlled, slow, basic form with additional protection (extra thick mat on the tatami). Even at your new dojo where they seem to do high falls more often you have to bear in mind that you likely won't be expected nor taught how to receive these in the same way - you will start with a more basic fall until the sensei decides you are ready. You also mentioned the dojo teaching more high falls had dozens of black belts - do you not think this is why there are more high falls? If your first dojo is full of white belts it stands to reason that they would do less high falls due to an overall lower level of skill among the students. Do both schools teach everyone together? Or perhaps the second dojo has beginner classes and mixed/advanced? If you just end up watching the advanced students it is not indicative of what you will be doing.

It sounds like you generally want a more communicative sensei which seems to be more the second sensei than the first so perhaps it will be a better fit. You mention again and again real world scenarios, does this happen often to you to get into fights? Aikido is much more about avoidance of conflict if it is at all possible, so perhaps going out into the world with the enthusiasm to "use it" it not the right approach. The better question to ask as to how well the teaching and lessons are going is to press to yourself - are you learning something? Do you come away from each lesson having gained or practiced something new or something that you need to refine? Is there something you can do better? If you are sure you are performing perfectly and not learning anything a discussion with the sensei is in order. Ask to be used as uke for demos, ask how you can do more or better or when you will move on to move X. However as you say you are "new" I think you are maybe getting ahead of yourself a bit and likely not perfect in the moves you know currently and are perhaps a little overeager.

As for one-on-one training and randori.. Forget about it, if the class is larger than a few aikidoka in either case there will not be much one on one training unless you are chosen as uke. If you want one-on-one try asking the sensei or another student to practice something you are unsure about or something that you saw online after class. In my experience the sensei usually sticks around for a few mins after lesson as he folds his hakama etc. to make sure the remaining students don't hurt themselves and correct mistakes. Randori is advanced, as someone else mentioned 2nd kyu+ is likely when it will start, at this point as you are learning the basic moves to add to your arsenal it is not likely that you will be asked to use them in this manner. Think of it as a sort of test in a sense, you do it when you know what you need to use, not when you are still learning.

As a final word I guess what I'm saying is don't expect to go from doing basic techniques with one sensei to suddenly doing what the black belts are doing with the next sensei. 6th dan or 5th dan is of little importance, at that point they are both very experienced and know aikido and teaching thoroughly. Helpful things to mention to help perspective would be more about what "style" of aikido they both prescribe to if any (Yoshinkan, Ki Society, etc.) and how many students/how large the dojo each of them have and the overall level. I hope that you find what you are looking for though urge caution, do not be so eager to go into too advanced falls and end up injuring yourself and being off the tatami for weeks or months.

My experience is that many beginners actually find high breakfalls easier than rolls to learn. Since I also train in a style where the projections are more "down" than "away" in most waza, rolls are actually not that useful for daily practice (basic backwards and sideways breakfalls (not jumping versions) are what our beginners really need in order to be safe in daily practice)

Joe Patach wrote: So, for the many responses, I will try to tie this up succinctly. I stopped doing Gracie Combatives because only 1 school in another city taught this course. This was self defense based, not sportive BJJ. Once you got your blue belt in BJJ, then you would proceed to the sportive aspect. Due to cost and travel distance, this was not going to work long term. I did however grasp the basic concepts needed for ground fighting. As far as Krav Maga is concerned. I did enjoy it when I started, they used real life scenarios. Chokes, knife/gun attacks, sparring, punching and blocking, that sort of thing. But within a few months I had learned all the material, and the school only taught level 2 curriculum, which was limited. So while it was good stuff, there is not growth at some point.

Thanks for the response.

I also took BJJ before Aikido. My buddy and I signed up after seeing demos by various MA groups at the university, plus we were already UFC fans. This teacher though didn't teach any of the standup self-defense techniques in BJJ, unlike the BJJ school in my neighborhood, which advertises 130 standup techniques (defense against headlocks, bear hugs, punches, etc.). I stopped after a knee injury, caused by an over-enthusiastic, muscular opponent in sparring. He wanted to get out of my guard so bad, he used his brute strength.

After a long layoff from martial arts, I chose Aikido over BJJ. One of the reasons is similar to yours - the only room for growth in BJJ is the skill of defeating opponents in one-on-one grappling matches. Aikido seems to offer more room for personal growth - acquiring and refining a wider variety of skills - than that.

I, of course, have zero experience in Aikido randori. However, I've done multiple attacker drills in other MA. What I got out of them was that this type of stuff is really good for learning how to not panic or freez up when surrounded by people, and enjoy exploring ways to escape or at least get them in each others' way. I can't say for sure that randori has similar aims but that's the impression I got from watching. When I've been attacked unexpectedly (eg. drunk/high guy suddenly grabbing my arm and pulling me into a mosh pit) I've frozen up, so I sure I have a lot of work to do.

About the time I read your thread, I found this documentary. It's about a former K-1 kickboxing competitor and karateka learning about Aikido, after initial skepticism. You might enjoy it too.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDzWCmLd_0&t=2119s

I'm about 4 1/2 years into my own Aikido journey. Prior to training in Aikido, I trained for 2 years in Hung Gar Kung Fu. Comparing the two, Aikido's learning curve is much, much steeper!

Just getting very basic motions down well enough to recognize what your sensei is demonstrating will take some time. There are still times that I think I'm mimicking what sensei just demonstrated, but then he corrects me (as it should be).

As far as what techniques your sensei teaches, it will vary by his whim, who is in class, what the mix is of beginner to advanced students, and which students are coming up for examination.

While the on-paper, exam curriculum seems small, the number of techniques and variations is astounding. Saito-shihan repeatedly stated there were 600 techniques just in his official curriculum. The actual number of possibilities is much, much higher than that, so your sensei has a vast array of different techniques to choose from. Perfecting any particular technique will take you far more than one practice session.

About how much time your sensei spends with you, in-particular: A. He has other students, B. It's actually more important practicing with a variety of different partners with different fluidities of movement and different body types, as your exact movement will not apply equally to all uke's.

...that's enough of my own soapbox for today.

Sorry if I haven't answered everyone's questions so far. I'm not evading any questions. I did Aikido at the other school about a month. And yes they were mostly lower belts. But I felt like the sensei was grasping at straws for curriculum. Whether that makes me bad, I dont know. I just enjoyed the instruction at the new school I will be attending.

I also realize that I will not be doing all that good stuff out of the gate as a new student. I will have to work up to it. But I feel that this dojo will foster that ability for me to achieve that at some point. I will be starting on Monday night. Will let everyone know how it goes. I will keep caution and safety in mind. They were all really nice to me when visited the first time. We shall see how it goes.

Ah, I took my first Aikido class (in a long time) today. So since I'm a month behind you, you're kind of my sempai.

I don't want to hijack your thread too much, but I'll just say I have a much greater appreciation for what this art has to offer than before, especially with an experienced uke not flopping for me and letting me feel where I'm taking his/her balance and/or his/her resistance suddenly drops to zero. It's like a two oiled gears turning together. Neat stuff.

Joe Patach wrote: Sorry if I haven't answered everyone's questions so far. I'm not evading any questions. I did Aikido at the other school about a month. And yes they were mostly lower belts. But I felt like the sensei was grasping at straws for curriculum. Whether that makes me bad, I dont know. I just enjoyed the instruction at the new school I will be attending. .

The main thing is whether you enjoy the practice for its own sake. If you believe that this new school will teach you more, or better, or prepare you for hypothetical fights on the hypothetical "street", then that's a bonus of sorts -- but you could be wrong about all that. The martial arts are full of the ghosts of students who started training with great enthusiasm and a grand vision of what it all meant, and who left as soon as reality contradicted their initial vision. Those of us who stayed, well, we all had initial visions too -- and we were all wrong, every one of us. The training is never what you imagine it will be, doesn't matter what your prior experience. It's those who can discard what they "knew" and accept what really is, who stay in the art. Or who stay with anything, really. It's the ones for whom the practice is enough.

I'll let you in on a secret: aikido has no advanced techniques. Not one. It's not like some other martial arts, where you enter as a white belt and see the higher-ranked students doing jumping spinning kicks or something like that, and you tell yourself that someday you'll learn that too. In your first month of aikido, you've probably seen (and at least tried to do) 75% of the techniques you'll ever see; if you stay for six months, it's probably 90% or more. Everything else is learning to use those techniques: smoother, cleaner, better, to blend them together, to switch from one to another as circumstances dictate. Beginning student observes an advanced class doing something he's never seen before, afterwards asks his sempai, "What was THAT?" Sempai: "That was just iriminage". And indeed it is, but you'll never see that iriminage without first learning the basic iriminage. And if you're bored with the basic iriminage after one month, you won't learn it.