Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Mike, my comment was to that specific phrase of Dan's . . . I think it is a pithy summation of the tenor of this and related threads. The fact that he made the remark in the context of replying to you is beside the point of my observation.

I dunno, on the other hand it may be more hopeful than ever. And yet again many will say they're happy just as they are.
I think allot of folks enjoy the energy exchange and that "ride." And really don't give a hoot that its not martailly sound. They're any number of folks who aren't interested in real power.
I say good on them....let em have fun.
Its the ones who are interested in fluid power and the foundations of Japanese bujutsu that might be looking at the beginings of change-and the sharing of some good informaton if they go looking.
They first had to know it was real. That part may be mostly over. Now they just have to go find someone who will share.
Now if ya meant the Aikido make believe dream...I think most people never really bought into it anyway. Most guys I know saw right through it.
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Now if ya meant the Aikido make believe dream...I think most people never really bought into it anyway. Most guys I know saw right through it. Dan

Dan,
Most guys you know may have seen right through it, but the overwhelming majority of aikidoka still buy it lock stock and barrel.

Tim

Well you won't believe what it does for cutting. Not that you ever really need that much power to cut with a sword anyway. Its just that there really isn't much effort exerted to get that power in use. After a while its just your body doing its thing with little dedication. Its the same for all weapons-particulalry large weapons like Naginata and spear-or taijutsu. Its all the same. Just you being you, and them encountering -you.
This training is tailor made for bujutsu. And just might have been more prevelant than we know. In Bujutsu you didn't want to be on a battlefield all day carrying loads, like armor and weapons and hikiing cutting, stabbing and what not using 100% of external muscular effort. Fundementally at any point in time, you'd want to be using small percentages of your power to do any given task. That is the essence of bujutsu. Whether with Kogusoku, Sword, spear etc. The ideal was for maximum efficiency in the body for minimum effort in the field.
This type of training- albeit a killer in practice- gives you much greater inherent martial strength and in other ways more usable strength, without exerting yourself so much. Its yet another critisism I have with so many in Aiki-do. All that hopping around and "energy exchanging" is martially stupid. Also others claiming their style is "based on weapons" while being fundementally clueless about how to use them with any degree of efficiency.
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: You had a plethora of men surrounding Ueshiba, sitting there under his direct tutelage and many lectures. Yet oddly enough, probably his two best; Tohei and Shioda, went elsewhere for their own enlightenment. With those that remained clearly stating they did not understand him. What remains of Ueshiba is his pointed to two places. Daito ryu and esoteric Shinto practices.

Interesting thread going, Dan. A lot has been happening on Aikiweb since I was able to log in.

I am convinced that you have something very worthwhile and I'm trying to work out a way to come and see you.

Meanwhile...

You left out one big fellow who was close to Ueshiba for many, many years. I speak, of course, of Mochizuki Sensei, whom the daito ryu regards as a daito ryu master--one of only two men, including Tomiki, to get a scroll from Ueshiba.

Of course, Mochizuki did go elsewhere and he did start his own style--but to the very end, he had pictures of two men on his dojo wall: Kano and Ueshiba. And like all the others, he did call his art aikido.

These discussions go back and forth on the matter of technique and fighting. And I understand that fighting is not the end-all, be-all for any kind of training, but usefulness is the ultimate purpose.

I can say that Mochizuki Sensei had plenty of choku fudo, but he never made a big deal out of being "immoveable". He never demonstrated the unbendable arm, the jo trick, standing and being pushed, sitting cross-legged and having people push against his head--none of that. The fact is, while Ueshiba agreed to "show the lie" to the Emperor, Mochizuki Sensei preferred not to show it. And while the things mentioned above are not lies, he did consider them, more or less parlor tricks in that context. In other words, if he wanted to show an ability, he showed it in his technique--his sword work, his aikido, his judo, jujutsu, karate or whatever else he was doing. I never saw him give any kind of demonstration of anything like Tohei did.

The point being that, as everyone has agreed, the skills you describe do have limits--when they run up against someone else with the same kinds of skills, developed to a similar or slightly higher level. And I think that those powers were relatively common when Mochizuki was young, but relatively uncommon the older he got. Many of those with the abilities died well before the war. Many were killed in the war. Japanese society, moving fruther from the samurai times, lost the mindset and deadened the ability of the Japanese youth to learn them. And the Japanese budo, having come through the SCAP restrictions, either lost the necessary elements or hid them where few have found them since.

But if they are core elements of budo, largely based on skills trained through sumo methods, then we get to a point where they are, indeed, baseline skills and not unique to any art. However, there is a reason that the arts have different names. They take very different approaches to using the human resources of mind, two arms, two legs and a head. There is a big difference between karate and aikido, between karate and ken-jutsu and between ken-jutsu and ju-jutsu.

And I do believe that, as Ushiro Sensei said, the traditional training methods contain all that is necessary to develop the skills he has--which have been repeatedly presented as representative of the "baseline skills" of so much recent discussion. Ushiro Sensei said that he got his skills by practicing the kata of Okinawan karate.

And I believe that the traditional training methods of judo will develop similar power and immoveability. And if you can find someone who goes deep enough to the really traditional training methods of aikido, those will develop it, too.

In my opinion, the problem is that those methods are not known by many people and they are not dilligently followed enough to produce the results. In modern judo, for instance, there is a big emphasis on sport and training specialized techniques, emphasizing the right or the left side of the body, while in traditional training, the emphasis was to develop all the techniques and to be able to do them with both right and left and without weight classes.

Deemphasizing equal right and left-side training could, alone, be what takes modern training away from teaching what you do.

Anyway, Mochizuki Sensei taught in the very traditional way. He didn't like to see anyone develop too much of a "tokui" specialty waza. I remember one guy at the dojo who had a beautiful technique that he could do almost at will on almost anyone. I remarked on that to Sensei and he seemed to disdain it. He said, "Yeah, but that's the only technique he has." The guy had developed that one thing so far. He could probably do all the other techniques in the judo repertoire but apparently none of his other techniques approached the level of naturalness he had with that one technique. And the original intent of the judo method was that a high-level man would reach that level of naturalness throughout a broad range of hand techniques, hip techniques, leg techniques and sutemi waza. And when he had that, he would have the kind of thing you're talking about.

And so, since "the skills" alone were beatable by someone else with "the skills," his approach was to develop those skills by a broad development of the full range of technique--and in his case, not just judo techniques, but judo, aikido, karate, ju-jutsu, etc., all informed by ken-jutsu and backed up by koppo.

Now, it's rare to find anyone with that kind of breadth and depth because society now does not much allow it and it provides so many distractions and undermines all serious self-development. So we find judo people who are good with particular techniques on their right side only, with other techniques on their left side only, and not very good at many other aspects of judo. We find aikido people who have trained for twenty or more years who would be in big trouble if a really dangerous kind of person attacked them.

So I think it's a good thing you're doing and it's good to see that so many people are making that accessible. But I guess I'm saying "Don't throw the master out with the baby and the bath water." Aikido has something real and deep and powerful. But it may not be in the techniques you can find at a local dojo. You might have to go to Japan to find techniques that even contain that essence anymore. So when I say you have to look deeply, that may mean that you have to look somewhere else. But these days, even if you go to Japan, there aren't many left who ever saw those old times and the people that came from those times.

So I'm certainly not against you. It has always been the duty of a budoka to develop himself as deeply as he could. And that has always meant to "find out for yourself" what is real and develop yourself in truth. Those who are guardians of hierarchy won't like it, but KFC doesn't like it when you go to Arby's for lunch. Who cares?

Best to you.

David

Thomas Campbell wrote: Mike, my comment was to that specific phrase of Dan's . . . I think it is a pithy summation of the tenor of this and related threads. The fact that he made the remark in the context of replying to you is beside the point of my observation.

Fair enough.

Mike

Dan Harden wrote: That's simply not true. Cite______________________________________

I'm at work so I don't have the references to hand, they are at home. But, there is the account of Ueshiba's friend from back home who said that he wasn't so special when it was just Daito Ryu, it was the Oomoto Kyo that changed him. Also Ueshiba's former judo teacher once told Tohei that it was after Oomoto Kyo that he became powerful. This doesn't necessarliy mean however that the essesnce of his skill did NOT come from Takeda, only that it was the Oomoto Kyo that (for want of a better word) awakened it.

Like I said there isn't great evidence either way. I think your giulty of choosing to interpret it in a way that suits you best rather than interpreting it fairly. I am quite willing to explore either (or both) possibility, which is the answer to this question:

Dan Harden wrote: If I may, why are talking to me? Have you decided that I -do- have something to say or contribute about Aikido after all? Or did my natural charm and wit win you over?

Exploring these things with you, despite your choice to behave in an abrasive and haughty manner is of interest.

Dan Harden wrote: In the end the Daito ryu method, once you get past, and dump the wrist grabs, works rather well.

Dumping the wrist grabs may suit what you wish to achieve but not me. I suspect that your definitition of 'effective' (could you please supply us with it as it seems crucial to your arguments?) is not the same as mine. I personally find these of great interest. I would however not be stupid enough to offer my wrist to an attacker in a UFC style situation unless I was planning something rather sneaky.

Mike

Mark Chiappetta wrote: To bring this back around I heard Dan say (I'm going to paraphrase because my memory sucks) "Don't mistake this internal stuff for fighting. The body training can definitely improve your martial skill but if that's all you have, you're going to be immovable/unthrowable/etc. right until you get your ass knocked out. You need more."

I think that's a valid point. I know that my own physical fitness levels and body conditioning would need to be much better to enter such a competition. They aren't at present because I'm not training to enter competitions seeing as I have no interest in them. Which is also a valid point.

Mike
Yest another wonderful communication from your keyboard.
ILets see, you talked to me with phrases like I'm petty, ego-driven, rude. Now your back with prhases like, abbrassive, haughty and now "guilty of having a position?"
And you think I'm the one with the problem?

Lighten up.
I hardly see where you're "exploring" anything "with" me. Examine your approach, Is this the way you handle yourself in a conflict? You're not coming off looking very well here. We all can understand it if you're furstrated son, even angry, but set a game plan or gioal for a debate. One where you can move a conversation forward. Otherwise you look like your ill-prepared and shooting from the hip. Never a good sign for a Budo guy.
But thanks for your attempts at expressing yourself. Its nice to see how young budo men interact nowadays.
Dan

Gentlemen,

Please take your personal disputes offline.

-- Jun

Dan Harden wrote: We all can understand it if you're furstrated son,

I am not your son, please don't patronize me.

Dan Harden wrote: even angry, but set a game plan or gioal for a debate. One where you can move a conversation forward. Otherwise you look like your ill-prepared and shooting from the hip. Never a good sign for a Budo guy. But thanks for your attempts at expressing yourself. Its nice to see how young budo men interact nowadays. Dan

You seem to be saying that being young (by which I take it you mean younger than you rather than young) means I cannot have a point of view or intelligent questions to ask. Quite an arrogant view. I call you rude and abrasive because you are. You respond by telling me I am young. A cheap debate tactic enabling you not to answer questions I ask. I have asked questions that I believe are valid. I also believe that amongst the hubris you do actually have some interesting things to say, which is why I am here.

I'll move the conversation forward when you do. Let me ask you this. You claim that what you do is aiki, and also therefore aiki-do, the implication being that most aikido people do not actually do aikido:

If you had to pay for an advertisement for your dojo would you advertise it as Dan Harden's Aikido Dojo or Dan Harden's MMA school and why?

Please don't try something so cheap as saying that 'I don't advertise my dojo, I don't need to'. I believe the answer to this question will be quite illuminating as to your view point and motivation for holding it, both of which are related to the title of this thread, questions of 'does Dan do aikido?', if so is what we (the majority of the aikido, or, as you like it Ueshiba-ha Daito Ryu world) do aikido? Are these things the same? If they are different how are they different? Why are they different? Is this difference something that needs to be 'fixed'? Or is it fine as it is? How do we judge the criteria for assessing the need to 'fix'?

Please answer the question without resorting to cheap debating tactics and patronizing comments. I, and I suspect others would appreciate it. Nor do I think we need a round of replies and PMs from your friends and supporters telling us that you're a really great guy and really talented. I have never questioned your skill. Only your motivation.

Sorry Jun, I didn't see your post before my reply. feel free to delete my relpy if you think you need to.

Mike

Hey now, since you posted your note to Jun just one minute after that prior post, you could simply have gone back and deleted or altered it on your own. We get 15 minutes to edit posts, and the "Edit" box remains in the lower right corner of the posted comment for the duration of that time. Play nice!

Gotta return to a couple of posts back. Mike H. referred to Ueshiba's skill jumping after Omotokyo - and not having the reference at hand. That was me, in Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm in the process of extensively revising that essay, btw - my perspective has somewhat changed - is amplified, actually.
The essential question is if Ueshiba's skill jumped due to some kind of training in Omotokyo, OR whether it jumped because things happened to come together for him at that time (the training in DR took root), the experience at Omoto provoked something that enabled Ueshiba to put things together that he'd learned, OR it was after Takeda lived with him for six months at the Omoto headquarters. (My current perspective is that it is one of the latter two alternatives - not the former. The proof is that anyone that we know of who did get internal strength who did Misogi exercises was a student of Ueshiba - those who were not are not recorded as possessing such power. Therefore, I believe that Ueshiba either used the exercises to pour old wine - DR - into new bottles - Misogi - , or that these exercises offered him some variant training methods which might have taken him in some different directions - nonetheless, still fueled by DR.
Bad metaphor, but - one buys a new car, but still uses gasoline. The Sagawa model gets 20 miles a gallon, goes 0 - 60 in 4.6 seconds, and tops out at 150 mph. The Horikawa model is quiet, nondescript, gets 50 miles a gallon, is good in city traffic and urban traffic jams, and surprises at 110 mph. The Ueshiba model gets 40 miles a gallon, can switch to biodiesel, and is especially good, off-road - and occasionally stuns by being possessed by the spirit of departed Masaratis and acting like a sports car when you least expect it.
More recently, the Harden model is seen at Monster Truck rallies, runs at 150 decibels, where it recently crushed "Grave Digger" on the ramp jump. The Haft model is, by report, a good little road model, able to take one from Portsmouth to Cornwall on a single tank of gas, but the driver tends to lay on the horn just a bit too much.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Hey now, since you posted your note to Jun just one minute after that prior post, you could simply have gone back and deleted or altered it on your own. We get 15 minutes to edit posts, and the "Edit" box remains in the lower right corner of the posted comment for the duration of that time. Play nice!

I didn't know that, thanks for the tip.

Mike

Ellis Amdur wrote: The Haft model is, by report, a good little road model, able to take one from Portsmouth to Cornwall on a single tank of gas, but the driver tends to lay on the horn just a bit too much.

Such kind words Ellis When I can afford it I'll upgrade, until then I'm content to muddle along just fine. I suspect that many younger people tend to drive such cars

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: I didn't know that, thanks for the tip. Mike

You've been on AikiWeb since 2002 and you don't know about the "Edit" function?!
Do you guys in Scotland still use an abacus to count your sheep, too?!


Ellis, that was...just...fabulous. The rest of us weigh in as mopeds and motorized tricycles!

Hmmm....very interesting indeed. You and I have talked this to death up close and personal, so I'm not addressing this to you-rather to the general audience.
And just what sort of precedents are there from within Daito ryu that would corroborate Ellis's hypothesis?
For me it isn't a theory, it isn't guess work. I've seen video footage of Daito ryu Shihan training and then seen their breakthroughs ten years later. I've felt it happen, I've spoken with men who've experienced it, and last It's happened in my own body three times. You can look at CMA internal training and talk to fellas who have had the same things happen to them.
It's not about technique and getting a deeper understanding of movement per se.
It's about internal skills. There is a gradual learning curve and realization. You can't really tell someone to "Just do this." And they say "Oh, great, Thanks that's all I needed. You train things for years (not techniques) then you see windows and things come together in your body (not techniques) then you are ready and start to feel other things happening so when you connect with force you can all of a sudden do other things (not techniques) after doing things for years and still doing your own training you jump and can do something, then you "lose it", then you can do it again, then you fail. This goes on and on. Then in the middle of really doing things you yourself can't believe…you lose it again. This goes on for years till of a sudden you "see" what you were missing. Then you have more to work on.
That Shioda jumped ship and went to the Kodokai to learn is hypothesis for one and fact for another. I find it comical that by his own students admission he "made these leaps" and I sit there and watch him doing straight out of the box kodokai expressions of internal skills verbatim. Gee, how'd that happen.
That Takeda went to the Deguchi compound and trained intensively with Ueshiba, when Ueshiba was ready to receive and Deguchi was so impressed with the results that he asked Takeda to change the name to Aiki-jujutsu ….is a surprise…… to just who? Why was it after this that Ueshiba received permission to teach.
The only folks who keep trying to find "other" influences are folks who don't know and can't see its Takeda's Aiki-no-jutsu all the way. And just how good is good? How good did Ueshiba really get comparatively? Just how much did Ueshiba really "have it" compared to his contemporaries? The other masters of Daito ryu? Why did two of the schools not look so favorably on his later efforts? How many students of Kodo and Sagawa felt his stuff and felt their own teachers, and characteristic of Koryu of that day just didn't write about it. Who felt Ueshiba's skills later in life and judged them as still needing work? Sagawa stopped a 68 year old Ueshiba… dead in his tracks.
Does it reduce the veracity of these skills. Not in the least. The skills speak for themselves. It just means Sagawa was better at them then Ueshiba, So was Takeda so was Kodo. Something that many folks in DR have always known.
It's easy for new folks to write-off these discussions. Its equally hard for most to even consider that among his contemporaries in internal skills (O)sensei had his betters --in the art he got it from. Daito ryu. Most folks have never encountered the real internal masters of the art or what they can do in a modern contemporary venue. The "mystery" of Ueshiba is best addressed in his own words.
"Takeda opened my eyes to true Budo" and then we see the following ….all his students who met Takeda considered him Ueshiba's superior…all the later folks are looking to a mixed bag for Ueshiba's skills.
Suffice to say the internal arts are what is Aiki. And endless repetition of waza ain't gonna do it.
Dan

Cady Goldfield wrote: You've been on AikiWeb since 2002 and you don't know about the "Edit" function?! Do you guys in Scotland still use an abacus to count your sheep, too?!

Yeah, I actually feel quite embarrased. I usually just preview my posts and edit them that way before pressing send, that's why I've never paid attention to the edit button

Mike

David Orange wrote: You left out one big fellow who was close to Ueshiba for many, many years. I speak, of course, of Mochizuki Sensei, whom the daito ryu regards as a daito ryu master--one of only two men, including Tomiki, to get a scroll from Ueshiba.

Not to get all picky or anything, but many students received such a scroll -- Tomiki, Mochizuki, Yonekawa, Shirata, Shioda, Kunigoshi, Yukawa and I'm sure plenty of others. Many of them remarked later that they didn't think they were important or didn't understand what they were at the time. Ms. Kunigoshi said that at the time she thought that hers was just some kind of notes.

Doug Walker wrote: Not to get all picky or anything, but many students received such a scroll -- Tomiki, Mochizuki, Yonekawa, Shirata, Shioda, Kunigoshi, Yukawa and I'm sure plenty of others. Many of them remarked later that they didn't think they were important or didn't understand what they were at the time. Ms. Kunigoshi said that at the time she thought that hers was just some kind of notes.

True.Also true is that there is a great deal of information in that paragraph. More than many will ever realize.
Dan

Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but while checking my facts I came across this little gem from Akazawa -- "O-Sensei never taught exactly how to become strong or things such as that. This was not because he was worried that the students were trying to become stronger than him, however. There is simply no way around it, if you want to be strong you have to single-mindedly push yourself into that state known as muga no kyochi, that is, the realm of no-self."
Very "if we become blond, we will rule the world."

I have had to go to outside seminars/reading/viewing to see what my Sensei was already showing me. It was "hidden in plain sight".

We can debate where its there or not, or whether I have the ability to perceive it. The further down the path I go, the more I see.

Doug Walker wrote: 1. Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but while checking my facts I came across this little gem from Akazawa -- "O-Sensei never taught exactly how to become strong or things such as that. This was not because he was worried that the students were trying to become stronger than him, however. 2. There is simply no way around it, if you want to be strong you have to single-mindedly push yourself into that state known as muga no kyochi, that is, the realm of no-self." Very "if we become blond, we will rule the world."

Well I think the first part is pretty much been the point of most of these discussion-the fact that he didn't teach it. We're postulating that -while not much ourselves- we might be able to help here or there by sharing. Something which I've not previously ever been willing to do before.

The second part. To all those who have chosen that long "do more kata" road, I'd say in my best Doctor Phil voice: "How's that workin out for ya?"

The idea that you have to work harder at something to suddenly get them is baloney. They are teachable on their own and always were. My guys learn these skills day one, week one, and it builds from these. They are the foundation of all budo. Period.
For Budo they make you stronger, tougher to throw and lockup and they are great for power generaton and weapons.
For MMA they make you stronger and tougher to throw and lock up and they are great for power generaton and weapons.
They're just a great body training for fighting
They work and are viable in any art
And the Asians knew that.
How come for the most part, so few non-Asian students knew or know them in any depth- with all these tens of thousands of Foreigners learning?
There's another interesting question.
So where is it in Aikido?
Can it be trained seperately and used in Aikido?
Is it in fact, the core of Aiki-do?
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: And endless repetition of waza ain't gonna do it.

Neither will endless static drills and parlor tricks.