Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

So..The other day,as I was going to my Aikido class,and I had a texas chainsaw massacre t-shirt.And one of them made a joke about how it's not aikido-ish and some other made a joke about aikido techniques involving disarmament of an attacker with a chainsaw.

I'm not gonna ask about disarmament of chainsaw attackers but something a little similar.

Attackers with baseball bats?machetes?Nightsticks?
Could these be treated the same way as a Bokken/Jo/Knife disarmament?or they could be taught seperatly somewhere in aikido?

I can't really speak much from experience in either Aikido weapon's training, or having really ever be attacked by a bat/machete/chainsaw/etc., but I would imagine the techniques would be handled the same way as any other disarming or weapons-based techniques. Or, if the "non-traditional" weapon resembled something else (in the case of the bat<->jo comparison), similar principles would apply. Obviously, things like "plasma television" would be way out of the realm of fair weapon comparison, but I think that point's made.

The way someone would attack you with a bat or machete would be similar to other strikes that you've presumably learned already. So it seems that you just need to compensate for the extra distance and range of attack that the weapon brings to the equation.

There's something about every "non-traditional" weapon that shares a common element with a "traditional" one. I think the same could be said with unarmed, untrained v. trained attacks. I think maybe try to approach it as a...mmm....not-so-"untraditional" weapon, and that would naturally let your Aikido do its thing (for lack of a better phrase ).

what if you got attack by folks who armed with fruits?

The only way to really answer that question is to try it out. Make sure though that when you set up the scenarios that you use different assumptions about when/how the attacs occur. How much distance between the two, the amount of awareness of the person being attacked, position of the person attacked.

What if you are tieing your shoe and you are attacked?

What if you have enough distance to run? well do you? try it out!

How about clutter and furniture how much do they come into play.

What are the things that you are successful with and what things don't work...evaluate each scenario, retest and try again until you can replicate your "success" with different attackers etc.

Use shinai and/or foam weapons to start, maybe plastic bats...bokken...helmets and pro gear as well if you can get it.

No one IMO can really answer this question for you If you really care, this in the only way to really get a handle on how you will deal with these things in reality.

Could these be treated the same way as a Bokken/Jo/Knife disarmament?

Sir,

Your answer is in your question. Basic fundamentals of ma-ai, taisabaki, and kuzushi are applied. Concepts and body mechanics are basics, techniques emanate from proper implementation of the same.

Experiment, I once taught a class with a broom and it's application in realtime use. We use ActionFlex and improvised weapons in our training, as Mr. Leavitt already stated, and I wholeheartedly agree, get some and give it a go.

Train well,

Mickey

We tried attacks with metal folding chairs a few times, and the techniques that worked against bokken generally worked against the chair attacks. We found that the more basic the technique, the more effective it was on non-traditional weapons. I seem to remember ikkyo and iriminage working best for us with the chairs.. It was fun, anyway, too.

You should look into:

Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, and Rokyo Waza. Also Kotegaeshi, Shihonage, Jujinage, Kaiten nage, Kokyu Nage, Irimi nage, and in the appropriate situation Koshi nage.

Those waza all pertain to weapon disarms, as long as they are holding that weapon in their hand.

I have been very interested in the knife work taught by this guy:
http://fcskali.tripod.com/id9.html

My goal is to learn a lot more aiki and then practice Ray's knife stuff from that aiki-body perspective. I'm not sure I even ever considered dealing with disarming someone with a metal chair. Awesome idea. I'll be thinking about it. Thanks for the inspiring idea.

Rob

Kawaguchi Sensei, Evans Sensei, and Page Sensei, my three primary instructors over my first three years of keiko, taught tanto and bokken takeaways. They did not teach these waza every class, but I feel they covered them sufficiently. That is, I have some confidence against a weapon now as opposed to none. As Kevin addressed briefly, I feel the absolute first thought should be, *Can I get out of here?* This mind's initial thought of evasion and its instantaneous assessment of this option, may contradict one of our most fundamental Aikido learned instincts of irimi.

Therefore I would like for Aikidoka to give some feedback on this idea of quick assessment of flight options versus immediate and full entering. I am super-curious to know how you all feel about this. I have more thoughts on it, but I will first see if some of you comment on this post.

Drew

Drew, my feelings on evasion in knife is you probably are not going to get away by running or backing up. Unfortunately, if distance has been closed on you with a knife and the guy is intent on using it to kill you, well, it sucks and in most cases you have no choice but to turn and fight for your life, entering is the only option you have.

That said, the only way to really understand this or to find out what you "should do" is to put yourself in the scenarios and see what happens. I would not purport to tell anyone what they should do, as it is their life and they need to make up their own mind what they should do based on the situation.

My experiences tell me to enter and fight hard and try and overcome.

By non-traditional I am assuming you mean non-traditional for a Japanese (ken, jo, tanto).

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA 5-angles of a knife attack. We used a real knife. Phong Sensei
of Tenshinkai Aikido had no problem.

I don't know if my Aikido would work as well, but his worked just fine.

As always, IMHO it the person that is effective, not the art.

Firas Msaddi wrote: .... Attackers with baseball bats?machetes?Nightsticks? Could these be treated the same way as a Bokken/Jo/Knife disarmament?or they could be taught seperatly somewhere in aikido?

Theoretically, yes, if you've completely mastered the art. In practice, I'd consider running, especially where the machete is concerned. If you can't run, pick up a chair or something and heave. I've been doing Kali for 12 years, but when I heard of a machete-weilding nut job on the Ithaca commons, I realized at the time I may have crapped in my pants! Don't be a hero.

Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. Just food for thought.

Lynn Seiser wrote: A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA 5-angles of a knife attack. We used a real knife. Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido had no problem.

Nov 2004 issue, pgs 102-108

Quote.."Therefore I would like for Aikidoka to give some feedback on this idea of quick assessment of flight options versus immediate and full entering."

Measure the ma-ai in the first glance......(How close -leads to which response)

Run if you have room. Fight if you must, but entering is the heart of taking control of his attack.
Just as has been said earlier....
"Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. "
Truer words were never spoken

Lan

Kevin Leavitt wrote: the only way to really understand this or to find out what you "should do" is to put yourself in the scenarios and see what happens. My experiences tell me to enter and fight hard and try and overcome.

I like your warrior attitude, Kevin, and that may quite well be the right decision. As far as the scenarios, many years ago I used to do that too much. Now, I think you mean putting yourself through conflict scenarios time and again. This may be perfectly healthy. At times, I found myself going through scenarios too much. Not only should I trust my training more than constant rehearsal as if I'm the choreographer in Seagal's movies, but if I'm *constantly* going through scenarios, I'm not enjoying life. That is like being attacked through imagination at all times. It was no way to live and I got over it. I still find myself thinking of initial moves in scenarios from time to time, but they don't encumber my life anymore. Thank you for the feedback.

Drew

Lynn Seiser wrote: By non-traditional I am assuming you mean non-traditional for a Japanese (ken, jo, tanto). A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA 5-angles of a knife attack. We used a real knife. Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido had no problem. I don't know if my Aikido would work as well, but his worked just fine. As always, IMHO it the person that is effective, not the art.

Hello Lynn
It really means nothing to me that someone used a real knife and a teacher could deal with it. Give the knife to me, or half dozen men I personally know -and theoretically- the teacher wouldn't be here anymore. Weapons are not to be taken lightly. And they are almost 100% lethal in the hands of men who know how to use them.
Pardon me for using your post to illustrate what I believe to be a fundamental flaw that continues to re-occur here in these debates regarding weapons-to include the other recent thread as well. From here on out the "you" is only a general ‘you" --not you personally Lynn.
These conversations continue to progress based on the notion of using one's fellow dojo mates as the attackers in forming a base-line for their research. Using a dojo mate because they are faster or they can scare you or "cause they're big and strong" is not a qualification. So handing them a knife, sword, sticks, chair or what ever you may decide to experiment with "that day" in your dojo does not make them capable, or your research results meaningful in any way. It is rather unfortunate that aikido folks continue to feel compelled to put their research on display, whether it be video or magazine article, in a public arena that usually proves to be part of a more educated and prepared MA audience. The research that is proving to be typical of public weapons take-a-ways -does more damage than any possible good for the community. No one with any real chops will ever take you seriously.

At some point we need to stop repeating the mistakes that led to the dawning of the MMA phenomenon from within traditional arts. That is-limiting yourselves to testing things out in your own protected environment with buddies of questionable skill. Instead take ownership of more pressured testing. It's the only way to arrive at a substantive work worthy of serious consideration. If you really want to see the veracity of your ideas- go find someone who really knows how to use various weapons and try it on them -on their turf. Then find someone who completely disagrees with --their- approach and try it on them too.

As martial artists at least we could have the self-awareness to stop posting videos and advertizing the blatantly obvious flaws in our approach and begging for critiques for weaknesses we should have been aware of before we even began. Check around first privately so as not to "represent." It's due diligence. If we want to be taken more seriously...we need to act accordingly, or be treated accordingly due to our often, rather cavalier approach to weapon work.

Kevin Writes: I would not purport to tell anyone what they should do, as it is their life and they need to make up their own mind what they should do based on the situation.

Might I kindly suggest you would look at it differently if you were sending these people into action next week and they were trained under your watch? What if even one of them mistakenly thinks they were capable? Seeing this stuff and not saying anything when you know better is being part of the problem. It is far less painful to be made aware of these things in this venue than filling people with a false sense of confidence who -God forbid- may one day be in a bad place and think they have what it takes to make it home that night.
Cheers
Dan

P.S. Not that I care much about stools and chairs but with any large object; lead him so he swings and misses. When he is trying to stop its momentum and redirect...enter.

Drew Gardner wrote: I like your warrior attitude, Kevin, and that may quite well be the right decision. As far as the scenarios, many years ago I used to do that too much. Now, I think you mean putting yourself through conflict scenarios time and again. This may be perfectly healthy. At times, I found myself going through scenarios too much. Not only should I trust my training more than constant rehearsal as if I'm the choreographer in Seagal's movies, but if I'm *constantly* going through scenarios, I'm not enjoying life. That is like being attacked through imagination at all times. It was no way to live and I got over it. I still find myself thinking of initial moves in scenarios from time to time, but they don't encumber my life anymore. Thank you for the feedback. Drew

yea, you can't train like this all the time. Also, done right, there is a heck of a chance for injury as well so you really want to make sure they are done right, realistically, and safely. Still emotions run high and if you train like this all the time I think it is not good.

Dan Harden wrote:

Might I kindly suggest you would look at it differently if you were sending these people into action next week and they were trained under your watch? What if even one of them mistakenly thinks they were capable? Seeing this stuff and not saying anything when you know better is being part of the problem. It is far less painful to be made aware of these things in this venue than filling people with a false sense of confidence who -God forbid- may one day be in a bad place and think they have what it takes to make it home that night.

Dan, my comments were for civilians, but even at that, I don't tell military folks what to do. They need to experience it for themselves and determine what they should do. I believe in setting the appropriate conditions for training, teaching them how to handle weapons, show them how to employ them, then work through drills.

Spent last two weeks working with SOF guys and trainers on knife work on some TTPs and lessons learned from downrange.

Not to disparage anyone here as it is not my intent. Personally I don't care to play "filipino patty cake" with knives. There I said it...are you happy?

In fact I can't really find any footage on youtube that I consider to be the proper execution of use of a knife. Most folks seem to be really concerned with knife dueling and complicated trapping etc..which is fine and all that, but not what I like to do.

Do I know everything about knife fighitng? Absolutely not...I know what I have been trained to do, what I have used in scenario training and have listened to alot of soldiers that have employed them.

In civilian life I don't really like to deal with knives because of the whole force continum issues. Personally, if I pull a knife it is like pulling a gun, it becomes a lethal weapon that I intend to use at it's maximum capability. I'll deal with the consequences in court later.

My personal issues in dealing with knifes (as I discovered last week) is that I have developed some grappler affects that I need to correct such as duck under to the rear which really is not a good thing to do with a knife.

I am constantly getting reminded lately how much our training habits carry over into reality.

Thanks Dan

Dan, another thing I do at the end of my week long combatives class is to suit up guys in their kit and then put them through various scenarios and let them work out their weapon employment strategies. i.e how their M4 sling affects things, using their backup side arm and employing their knives.

As I never have enough time to train soldiers for what they need to learn, I hope to at least leave them with the mindset that they need to work through this stuff and develop habits and instincts on where to carry their weapons and when you abandon them and pick up the next one.

Learned along time ago you can't tell anyone anything, you have to lead them down the path to show them what is f-d up about it and let them work through fixing it and discovery themselves. This is the only way they can learn and internalize. I can only serve as a guide and set the conditions for them to learn.

Hope this better explains the words I chose above.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Dan Harden wrote: Dan, my comments were for civilians, but even at that, I don't tell military folks what to do. They need to experience it for themselves and determine what they should do. I believe in setting the appropriate conditions for training, teaching them how to handle weapons, show them how to employ them, then work through drills. Not to disparage anyone here as it is not my intent. Personally I don't care to play "filipino patty cake" with knives. There I said it...are you happy?

Actually yes I deleted a whole section in my post in response to Rob about his guy's vids. I am no fan.
With other people though it is exactlt that-setting parameters that are more realistic and viable that can at least open their eyes to bettter, higher percentage techniques and movement.

In fact I can't really find any footage on youtube that I consider to be the proper execution of use of a knife. Most folks seem to be really concerned with knife dueling and complicated trapping etc..which is fine and all that, but not what I like to do.

Ditto. In fact in direct response to Rob's vid posting I was going to post this:
_________________________
If this is the guy you were telling me about then please invite me to your next gathering. This is not the way to fly in my opinion-not even within flow drills. But, you know me- I'd rather "do" and then "talk" about it after…it tends to unblock peoples ears. In the mean time, lets do some weapons-work this week, you can start with Mat, Andy, DJ. , anyone.
Even assuming he is just showing attack forms with a knife against an unarmed assailant he is risking too much and in fact "doing too much" for little additional gain when he could get the job done with less risk. You need to know that approach is well known and has been learned, dealt with and modified as early as the 70's and 80's with some professionals who looked at it with other Indonesian/ Philippino teachers- way back then. Remember the Colonel -me and Tom were discussing that I had told you about - this is just the sort of thing we were....uhm...discussing that night.
Reverse grip in a short weapon makes more sense in some older indigenous fields of combatives where last minute disarmament or weapon damage could occur at speed and you were already engaged and needed to close the distance against a longer weapon. It is NOT a first choice in weapon work where timing and distance is your friend - particularly if you have the only weapon. Why waste the tme and effort. Tactically, there was a whole lot of unnecessary flash as well which reminded me more of Hollywood than combatives. FWIW, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of guys who already looked at this stuff, some in context with a broader field of knowledge for a professional approach. What I am addressing here-is not even remotely "newsworthy!"
In short this IS the "old news" you have heard me talk about for a few years now.
Last, in going to his web page and seeing "The World Sokeship council Award"- I was surprised. If you know him and like him, you might want to tip him off as to what that says to a more educated audience-if that is who he is pursuing.

_________________________________

Do I know everything about knife fighitng? Absolutely not...I know what I have been trained to do, what I have used in scenario training and have listened to alot of soldiers that have employed them.

Same here. Other than being stabbed and sliced twice and playing with some serious guys from your world - I have yet to meet the guy who gave a shite enough about them to ever call himself "an expert." But I haven't met too many martial artists who are worth shite with one in their hands either.
Personally, I think they are way "overplayed" and yet also poorly trained.

My personal issues in dealing with knives (as I discovered last week) is that I have developed some grappler affects that I need to correct such as duck under to the rear which really is not a good thing to do with a knife. I am constantly getting reminded lately how much our training habits carry over into reality. Thanks Dan

I'm all about distance, timing, positioning and placement. You can usually get the job done with less exposure and risk. As I am sure you know- its not an all or nothing proposition. There's work that is debilitating before you need to move in.
Cheers
Dan

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Dan, another thing I do at the end of my week long combatives class is to suit up guys in their kit and then put them through various scenarios and let them work out their weapon employment strategies. i.e how their M4 sling affects things, using their backup side arm and employing their knives. As I never have enough time to train soldiers for what they need to learn, I hope to at least leave them with the mindset that they need to work through this stuff and develop habits and instincts on where to carry their weapons and when you abandon them and pick up the next one. Learned along time ago you can't tell anyone anything, you have to lead them down the path to show them what is f-d up about it and let them work through fixing it and discovery themselves. This is the only way they can learn and internalize. I can only serve as a guide and set the conditions for them to learn. Hope this better explains the words I chose above.

oops our posts crossed
Yup. It makes more sense to me now. I figured you had to be a good teacher and leader. So many of you that I meet and have trained with, are. Not that you needed to expend the effort to explain-so thanks.
Dan

I do not have the martial arts ability of Dan, or the military experience of Kevin. I do know that an edged weapon commonly ends up being the lethal weapon. Dan is correct is asking people to step outside of the their "comfort zones."

Simply take a practice knife and chalk up the blade area with a colored chalk and go to town practicing what you think might work. People would be amazed to find out how badly they have been wounded in their "testing play." Simply looking at the type of wound does not in itself, do it justice. Many times, the person does not feel the cut of a sharp blade, but the shock to their system quickly (blood loss, nerve trauma, etc.) deprives them of the resources needed to continue on in a fight. Of course, this does not even touch the subject of adrenalin dumping, which can take a trained person and render then helpless in no time flat, unless they have some good training and experience under their belt in controlling high stress situations.

A good knife fighter does not keep the blade out in front of them, but the knife-holding hand is frequently behind the lead hand and the knife holding hand is typically used for both striking and cutting. With that type of fighter, you quickly realize the severity of situation when you are confronted by an edged weapon.

Victorious fighting almost always has to do with the effective use of inequity of force. In that case, if the person has a knife, you should have a gun, machete,....... Facing somebody with a knife without any comparable or superior weapon is like being a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. Kevin's point is well taken in that he has a preferred way of addressing that situation and hopefully surviving. If you cannot effectively escape, then may the God of War be on your side and give it all that you got, because your life is truly on the line.

Unless you are a soldier going into a combat theater or some other leo who has to face lesser, yet still lethal situations, then the training that you do is typically the training that you do (as opposed to expecting what you train in to be used in the near future). Most people never get into a real fight. There has been an increasing trend in the use of lethal weapons in fights and assaults, but stat.'s still show that most occur without their being an edged weapon or firearm.

It is good to play with scenarios while maintaining a realistic perspective on what you are doing. Almost without fail, it instills a greater sense of mortality, rather than immortality. This notion that hand-to-hand training can effectively deal with weapon situations is stretching a scenario to a point where we can engage in a mutual delusion of a superior skill set that can quickly get a person into a world of hurt.

Marc Abrams

Dan Harden wrote: From here on out the "you" is only a general ‘you" --not you personally Lynn.

No problem. You don't know me or my background. I learned a long time ago not to take people, including myself, too seriously or too personally. I have many of the same criticism of the traditional way of working a blade. I look forward to the day we can share space and time.

Marc wrote:

Many times, the person does not feel the cut of a sharp blade, but the shock to their system quickly (blood loss, nerve trauma, etc.) deprives them of the resources needed to continue on in a fight. Of course, this does not even touch the subject of adrenalin dumping, which can take a trained person and render then helpless in no time flat, unless they have some good training and experience under their belt in controlling high stress situations.

Yes, yes, yes! That is what we were talking about last week. In fact, I was watching an MSNBC report of a lady that was robbed and stabbed repeatedly. You see her continuing to fend off the attacker in the vid. She states "I didn't even know I was stabbed, I thought he was hitting me!".

If you are using a knife you have to account for this issue, this is why I believe you have to take out major muscle groups in the arms and legs. Eyes and face do cause a flinch response which is good to buy you some time for the next cut, but kidney stabs, slashes to the forearms and torso do not generate the response that you really want in a knife situation.

Man I don't like talking about this stuff, it is gruesome!

Anyway, you bring up the very issue I have with alot of the stuff you see out there for "knife dueling" Marc.

You also have to account for jackets, armor etc when dealing with the torso and any wounds there will not drop them immediately which is what you want.

Gettting to the outside and back is best I think, which is what I watch for in the you tube videos. Some of the "Spetnaz" vids out there do get to the back, but the vids I saw were too indirect and still did not deal with things the way I think are appropriate to render a guy "down".

Cutting the quads in the front, then cutting the hamstrings in the rear and up through the crotch into the femoral area tend to get the response you want regardless of their ability to recognize the attack in response to adrenal dump etc. They physically cannot fight back once their legs have been taken out.

It is also good, as most of us know from irimi nage to get to the back when dealing with multiple opponents.

Not fun stuff to talk about, but since you guys seem to want to discuss it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2T5DIxLYg

Here is some footage. Couple of things I think that are important.

1. Security Guard does what most untrained folks do, he splays hands and trys to keep distance. As you can see, he gets stabbed over and over.

2. That said, look at the amount of force that is used on the attacker that doesn't really phase him a whole lot.

3. Note that both the Security guard and the attacker walked away with the capacity to fight.

Just observations to make concerning knifes in fights.