Internal Power Development Methods

Lorel Latorilla wrote: It is good that you have that awareness. Too many people are caught up with "frame". It makes standing grappling practise much more challenging because you essentially have to weaken your frame (or depend less on your frame) on guys with frame. You"ll get dumped on your ass if you try your premature, soft skills on strong, balanced, agile guys or you will force yourself to depend more on your frame so you can "not lose". Internal arts involves a lot of "investing in loss" I think. So for me, best way to train soft skills is agete, push out, push hands or any other paired exercises like that. That way you familiarize yourself with "soft" motions. Learning it exclusively under heavy pressure right away is simply stupid. You'll never learn soft skills that way. You'd have to do it through paired practise with mild resistance (as you see in agete, push out, etc.). Also learning soft skills without frame as I said before will get you destroyed in a fight I think. Your body has to learn how to be balanced under pressure. Your body needs to be properly aligned/balanced/stable before you can make aiki appear, so when a heavy, strong guy tries to take you down, you won't be able to affect aiki on him because your body integrity will be compromised.

We do an exercise that's a lot like push-hands that's good for this. The rules are you have to go slow, no tempo changes and no strikes or grabs. You can hook, wrap, block the legs and take as many steps in any direction as you like. Very hard for newer folks to abide by the rules, but the rules make the exercise worth doing. It basically is the bastard child of judo randori, push-out and push hands. Anyhoo, I find that I get three very distinct sensations depending on how and how well I'm using the frame. When I first started doing this exercise (way before I met Ark) I felt all the pressure through my muscles and got exhausted very quickly. Around the time I first met Rob and Ark, the pressure moved more into my bones, the muscles themselves didn't feel like they were under load the same way, it was much more efficient, but also created openings because folks had this direct connection back into my skeletal system. Lately (last year or so) the sensation has shifted again and now feels more like it's running under my skin rather than through the muscles or through the bone. Not jumping on the fascia! bandwagon, just talking about proprioception. Regardless, I have a lot more live connection now that gives me good drive when I want it, but seems to absorb and redirect incoming force in a way that I was never able to before. Which is good, again because all the usual suspects have gotten so hard to get kuzushi on, I need all the help I can get.

(Credit where credit is due, it's my understanding this exercise is from Don. Any Ryusters out there want to comment?)

Dan wrote:

I'm not big on all of this talk of proprioception. Every time I leave someone to self-correct and "feel" they usually go back to what they were doing all their martial career. Proprioception will change and get more sophisticated and helpful as time goes on, and you start to teach yourself. It's a process. I was just rolling with the guys, had to push to make a postion change and I felt my shoulder "fire", I shook my head for being an idiot... worked through it on the run, flipped him, and just kept going. Whatcha gonna do?

Well this is the big thing I struggle with, of course on a much more less sophisticated level. I can usually understand what I am doing is wrong and sometimes actually even do it right, however, that moment is very fleeting and I can feel the sense of "habit" over power that and once it happens it takes a while to go back to what I felt was right, especially sense it essentially seemingly caused a point of failure.

Ushiro did a good job working with me at demonstrating how to reset the emotional context/feel necessary to get back to that "state", which was exciting for me...so that is my challenge now, how to I restore myself back to the point/feel that was right...it ain't easy when I guy is trying to choke you or do a knee on belly.

Anyway, I am trying to work through this, but it is very evident to me that I need to invest in failure, but also need to receive constant coaching and adjustment as I proceed.

The good news for me is I look back to where I was a year ago vice now and I can see changes and things are slowing down in my grappling as my opponent has less and less to feed off when we start out.

Mark,
That thread on Mifune on RSF was excellent. Thanks for the reference.

Kevin,
Your post is very intriguing. Is it possible to share any 'queues' that you picked up from Ushiro? It is interesting you talked about resetting the 'emotional' context. Why that shift to the 'emotions'? Is that the 'one point' you try (/return to) to hold to keep it all together?

Lorel,
That was great. Thanks for the ideas...and for sharing your research. I got to think about what you wrote..

Chris,
That was great too!! In my mind (i.e. despite my writing) I was trying to point at a similar idea ...but one you managed to put into words much better than I did. I've learned so much by reading all the different ways people think and write about all this.

Cheers gents,
Josh

Well Ushiro talked/coached me on the issue of intent/focus a fair amount...it is difficult but for him it had alot to do with the eyes. Nothing I had not been told before for sure. your intent must move prior to your body moving as a unit/core. There is alot more to it than that though...lol.

I think the whole one point thing is way over simplistic and not very helpful for me....there are "feelings", proprioceptions etc in the body that need to be developed...that is one thing...then having the ability through myofascial structure to be able to take command of your body and move.

I think alot of us, myself included figured that you can think your way through this..that is focus on one point or think about not firing or relaxing certain parts of your body that you don't wan to move. It ain't that easy I am finding.

Ushiro could coach me to get everything right through a series of "set ups" and conditions and then coach me to move correctly. It was cool, but remembering how to do this on my own is a challenge now.

this place has been busy! i had to step away from the conversation for a bit as duty called...

Josh Phillipson wrote: is this right?: When using your body in practice: Yang path is the strong alignment path when pushing away from the body, on that alignment and the limb is getting further from the body. Yin path is the strong path when pushing out but limb is returning to the body (such as to brace the body on impact when you 'zip-up') I found there are many ways they label what a yin and what a yang path are? but mostly because i have no clue. anyone care to volunteer the secret of the universe?

i'm not sure what you're asking... could you rephrase?

David Orange wrote: I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.

my experience and training (thus far) differs (if i understand you correctly).

just in part, using tai chi (principles, not the art) is to recognize (and harmonize with ) the limits. your comment seems to imply otherwise to me...

and

in ILC training we discuss the point of contact a lot, trying to recognize what "energy" is present there, recognizing yin and yang, etc. point of contact IS the relationship between tori/uke. now granted, it's always related back to what we call "the mechanism of the body" (lik hok in hakka), but the point is that sometimes you can get away with making the changes IN your body, and sometimes you have to change the point.

just two examples.

Hi Ashe,
Well... I was wondering what Yin and Yang are. In the body...and in terms of those paths. Be warned though; this may be a stupid question..
In your post you detailed major spirals/paths of the body and I did not understand the significance of calling them yin (returning to dantien) and yang (emanating from dantien). I thought it had to do with, when in use, referring to the direction of travel of the limb (from the body's core) and when they are strong. An example: the yang path is engaged (and strong) when, say, the leg is pushing away from the body. Vice versa for the yin path.
Gees...it's pretty clear I can't really explain this very well.

By the 'secret of the universe' comment...i was referring to the special secret decoder ring that... I'm sure exists... that.. kind of makes the yin/yang references all make sense.
..but that's probably asking for a bit much..
Cheers,
Josh

David Orange wrote:
I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.

Ashe Higgs wrote: my experience and training (thus far) differs (if i understand you correctly). just in part, using tai chi (principles, not the art) is to recognize (and harmonize with ) the limits. your comment seems to imply otherwise to me....

Well, your experience is undoubtedly deeper than mine, but I'm going by what Ark said: all the energy remains within your own body. And unless I'm remembering very poorly, Dan Harden said the same thing. Ark went further, I think, by saying that you "choke off" the techniques within yourself, i.e., you do the technique within yourself.

This was such a startling concept to me that it really stuck in my mind and became part of my understanding of the difference between internal and external: the internal relies on the center and manipulation of one's own center to generate power and that the power and techniques are retained entirely in one's own body. And internals use the fascia/connective tissue (suit) far more than muscle. And that became my way of understanding whether someone is talking about internals or externals in MA methods.

Is what I was saying.

Thanks for the response.

David

David Orange wrote: Well, your experience is undoubtedly deeper than mine, but I'm going by what Ark said: all the energy remains within your own body. And unless I'm remembering very poorly, Dan Harden said the same thing. Ark went further, I think, by saying that you "choke off" the techniques within yourself, i.e., you do the technique within yourself.

I was just talking about this tonight teaching class. Rob described the concept as "kaeshi" returning.

The best analogy I can think of is the old 'ki' trick of the unbendable arm. Most dojos describe it as an 'arm like fire hose'. And that's exactly what they get, a stiff arm incapable of bending and basically uncontrollable, just like a fire hose being held about 6 feet back from the open end. Now imagine a fire hose folded over on itself to form a loop with a kink and close off the end of the hose (you can actually experience this with just a garden hose). Now you have created a stable structure out of something that's made of fabric and water. Hmm, kinda like people...

When you do push out, you don't just blast into the other person, it's more like you expand, but you never bleed out that energy/intent/bioprasma/midiclorians/whatevah *into* them, they are simply displaced by your biggification.

All usual disclaimers apply: I probably said it wrong, probably doing level 1 version, or it's different now, or I misunderstood or something... But this is what I've been working with, and it's helped.

David Orange wrote: I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.

Well, your experience is undoubtedly deeper than mine, but I'm going by what Ark said: all the energy remains within your own body. And unless I'm remembering very poorly, Dan Harden said the same thing. Ark went further, I think, by saying that you "choke off" the techniques within yourself, i.e., you do the technique within yourself. This was such a startling concept to me that it really stuck in my mind and became part of my understanding of the difference between internal and external: the internal relies on the center and manipulation of one's own center to generate power and that the power and techniques are retained entirely in one's own body.

Hi David, it looks like the thread might just head back on track... Returning to the OP, what in your opinion is the best/suggested way to develop these internal abilities/strength/power that you refer to?

Without having the option/opportunity to 'touch' or get coaching from an expert at the moment, what would be something practical/simple that a person could potential do to train/develop until that opportunity arises? [Ideas from anyone else would be more than welcome of course!]

Thanks.

Not sure if you are addressing David or me, the OP...

The whole point of this thread is to point out that there are differences between approaches, some at distinct variance to others.... unless someone mentioned similarities somewhere and I've missed it?

What is "best" is defined by you (IOW, what's "best" for you - only you know) and is somewhat limited by where you are, how far you are willing to go find it. See Dan's various posts regarding this. As for suggestions... ditto.

For a practical "foot-in-the-door" approach, see Mike Sigman's suggestions in the Baseline Skillset thread.

Ignatius Teo wrote: Not sure if you are addressing David or me, the OP...

oops my bad, I thought OP meant original "post", not "poster". thanks for replying nonetheless.

What is "best" is defined by you (IOW, what's "best" for you - only you know) and is somewhat limited by where you are, how far you are willing to go find it. See Dan's various posts regarding this. As for suggestions... ditto. For a practical "foot-in-the-door" approach, see Mike Sigman's suggestions in the Baseline Skillset thread.

thanks for pointing it out mate, I'll go have a look there. cheers.

Christian Moses wrote: We do an exercise that's a lot like push-hands that's good for this. The rules are you have to go slow, no tempo changes and no strikes or grabs. You can hook, wrap, block the legs and take as many steps in any direction as you like. Very hard for newer folks to abide by the rules, but the rules make the exercise worth doing. It basically is the bastard child of judo randori, push-out and push hands. Anyhoo, I find that I get three very distinct sensations depending on how and how well I'm using the frame. When I first started doing this exercise (way before I met Ark) I felt all the pressure through my muscles and got exhausted very quickly. Around the time I first met Rob and Ark, the pressure moved more into my bones, the muscles themselves didn't feel like they were under load the same way, it was much more efficient, but also created openings because folks had this direct connection back into my skeletal system. Lately (last year or so) the sensation has shifted again and now feels more like it's running under my skin rather than through the muscles or through the bone. Not jumping on the fascia! bandwagon, just talking about proprioception. Regardless, I have a lot more live connection now that gives me good drive when I want it, but seems to absorb and redirect incoming force in a way that I was never able to before. Which is good, again because all the usual suspects have gotten so hard to get kuzushi on, I need all the help I can get. (Credit where credit is due, it's my understanding this exercise is from Don. Any Ryusters out there want to comment?)

It's been 4 months since I've sparred/grappled so I don't know how i would feel against hard resistance. All I know is, that I have a strong ass back, and this might sound good, but it's not. Intent gets stuck there. Especially in the cross/scapula area. So at this stage of my training, I've been focused mostly on relaxing my shoulders. For instance, Rob showed me this one exercise where you do lifts with the spear. This is a good exercise because you can gauge how much shoulder kicks in and you start to be aware of parts of your body that you can use to initiate movement in the arms. Once you gain awareness, you use your intent to move fro there. Lately, I''ve been focusing on tilting the pelvis and expanding lower back to initiate movement.

Ignatius Teo wrote: The whole point of this thread is to point out that there are differences between approaches, some at distinct variance to others.... unless someone mentioned similarities somewhere and I've missed it?

thinking out loud through the boot-in-mouth. methink the differences between hard and soft approaches come down to starting point. using the water hose analogy, hard approach builds the strength of the hose first (the suit idea) then builds the water pressure after; whereas, soft approach builds the water pressure first, then builds the strength of the hose. hard - outside in; soft - inside out. both approaches build the lower body strength first, i.e. all the connective tissue strengthening works from L1 of your spine down. so when we talk about frame/structure, we are talking about building the water hose. once we got the water hose and built enough water pressure, then you can ignore the hose, i.e. throw away the structure, because the water pressure can provide structure integrity. of course, once you get to that point, you can start to eat rum-soaked banana and do drunken monkey kungfu.

before you blokes asked where i am in the process, i would have you know that i stole the banana, ate the thing, and threw the peels for you internal folks to step on.

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: Hi David, it looks like the thread might just head back on track... Returning to the OP, what in your opinion is the best/suggested way to develop these internal abilities/strength/power that you refer to?

Get with someone who can really do it and have them show you how they do it. And then work, work, work on what they show you and go back to see them and get corrections and keep working really hard on it. Make it the most important thing in your life after your family and occupation. And really think about what your skilled teacher is showing you and wonder about it all the time and work hard on it.

Other than that...lots of hard work.

Also, effort.

Sorry, but that's the only thing I can think of since I can't really do much of this stuff at all. I'm pretty good with Ark's push-out (if the other guy is weak). My purpose in posting here is to try to get someone to correct my misconceptions!

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: Without having the option/opportunity to 'touch' or get coaching from an expert at the moment, what would be something practical/simple that a person could potential do to train/develop until that opportunity arises?

Order Aunkai's solo exercises tape and work like a monster on them. Rewatch it many times and really listen to the explanations and think about them and try to do the exercises as well as you can and keep coming back to the explanations and thinking about them.

I specify Ark's tapes because they're the only ones I know about! However, they are excellent tapes, very well done, organized, photographed and explained. A very worthwile purchase for anyone interested in this subject.

But think about this: I once had a friend who connected with this Philipine woman through a dating service. He wrote to her and sent her gifts and things for several years but could never scrape up the bucks to go to the Philipines and meet her. He finally came up with the idea that he would go to Nicaragua and work for the government there at the time because he had heard (somewhere) that if you would work for the Nicaraguan government for one full year, you could get a free flight anywhere in the world on Aeroflot--the Soviet airline. I told him he could just work in the US for a year and save up a few bucks a month and he could pay for a flight to the Philipines and back, but he must not have really wanted to go because he never did. Finally, after they had been corresponding for eight or nine years, she wrote that she had made some kind of arrangements to immigrate to Canada and would soon be moving there. He told her he would do whatever it took to visit her in Canada. She told him "never mind." So he never met her.

The point being, "MAKE it happen." Do what it takes to meet the best you can find. I see on your blog it looks like you attended Endo Sensei's seminar in DC? From Tasmania, you might as well go to Dan's in Massachusetts. Or Aunkai in Tokyo--an easy flight.

Just decide to get out there and meet the top guys.

Best to you.

David

Christian Moses wrote: When you do push out, you don't just blast into the other person, it's more like you expand, but you never bleed out that energy/intent/bioprasma/midiclorians/whatevah *into* them, they are simply displaced by your biggification.

Yes. I have found biggification to be very helpful!

It was really a shocking idea to me that you don't put your energy out there into the other guy. In all my reading and training, I thought that "internal" arts meant that you develop some kind of concentrated power inside yourself, then transmit that power in pulses or bursts, of course into the other guy. Same with techniques. But Ark and Dan both showed me that they keep the power inside themselves.

It made me dizzy: not the power, but the very idea.

Thanks.

David

Christian Moses wrote: I was just talking about this tonight teaching class. Rob described the concept as "kaeshi" returning. The best analogy I can think of is the old 'ki' trick of the unbendable arm. Most dojos describe it as an 'arm like fire hose'. And that's exactly what they get, a stiff arm incapable of bending and basically uncontrollable, just like a fire hose being held about 6 feet back from the open end. Now imagine a fire hose folded over on itself to form a loop with a kink and close off the end of the hose (you can actually experience this with just a garden hose). Now you have created a stable structure out of something that's made of fabric and water. Hmm, kinda like people... When you do push out, you don't just blast into the other person, it's more like you expand, but you never bleed out that energy/intent/bioprasma/midiclorians/whatevah *into* them, they are simply displaced by your biggification. All usual disclaimers apply: I probably said it wrong, probably doing level 1 version, or it's different now, or I misunderstood or something... But this is what I've been working with, and it's helped.

Hmmm ... not getting the hose analogy. Not that it isn't good, but, personally, I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around that idea.

Typically, I think of a water hose-type situation, but instead of one direction of water flow, there are two simultaneous ones. Water going outwards and water coming inwards in the same hose. So, the typical ki trick of unbendable arm only has 1/2 of the full intent. For us, anyway.

Sure, water going out can be strong, especially if you have good grounding skills. I think you can be mobile, too. But, it isn't yin/yang. Or heaven/earth as Ueshiba noted. It's just half of that equation.

Getting both directions to work simultaneously, I find that it doesn't matter whether my arm is extended, bent, or somewhere in between.

I'm horrible at the push out exercise we do. Both people have arms extended out and try to walk forward. No bending of elbows allowed. It's tough. I played around with two different variations,though. On my part, when done correctly, I can walk forward. On uke's part, it has two different "feels". One, I send intent out my arms and imagine reaching out way behind uke to a wall and placing my hands on the wall, then I walk forward. The other, I imagine my "center" is a black hole and everything that I get from uke, goes into the black hole, and then I walk forward. As I recently learned another variation on how to do the push out exercise, I'm sure there's quite a few more I don't know.

But, I suck at all of them, so far.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: ...All I know is, that I have a strong ass back, and this might sound good, but it's not.

Of course not. You want "dragon back." Not "ass back."

Lorel Latorilla wrote: ...Intent gets stuck there. Especially in the cross/scapula area. So at this stage of my training, I've been focused mostly on relaxing my shoulders.

I know the feeling. I was watching the Aunkai solo exercises tape last night and one thing I could just feel by watching was how much more relaxed Ark looked than either Rob or Manabu--particularly in the shoulders. He really looks incrediby soft and relaxed, though Rob and Manabu both perform the exercises very well and I know through experience that Rob has tremendous power. But Ark is like a reactor and yet he's so relaxed and soft. Yet he still has trouble from habits built up in gymnastics (according to Rob's earlier post).

Lorel Latorilla wrote: ...For instance, Rob showed me this one exercise where you do lifts with the spear. This is a good exercise because you can gauge how much shoulder kicks in and you start to be aware of parts of your body that you can use to initiate movement in the arms. Once you gain awareness, you use your intent to move fro there. Lately, I''ve been focusing on tilting the pelvis and expanding lower back to initiate movement.

Must look at that more closely....

Thanks.

David

Hi Lorel,
Man, you got to stop with the interesting posts.. too much stuff to do. Not that anything I write here will be directly useful…but maybe it's interesting…

Lorel Latorilla wrote: AlI know is, that I have a strong ass back, and this might sound good, but it's not.

Have you considered having your torso surgically removed? Perhaps a shot of novocane in the back before the training session. Okay..ok..i'm just kidding. ^ ^

Lorel Latorilla wrote: Intent gets stuck there. Especially in the cross/scapula area.

Did you see this post by Upyu: here< . He points to this< book. Oooh… I like some of the teasers on that site. I have not yet bought or read it though. Although I do plan to. I'm going to quote some of the stuff she wrote (which i cannot do!), okay:

Kinthissa wrote: The movement, so hard to initiate correctly, becomes perfectly easy once the correct internal connections are found. They are to be sought in a very delicate manner. The error lies in trying to move deliberately. One too easily does too much, too coarsely, and thereby misses the connections. As the arms moving further rightwards turn to go leftwards, there needs to be a kind of slipping into place, a soft and silky sensation along the torso on both sides. Interior linkings create a surface to travel on, a winding path to follow, and once the corner is turned, the way onwards is open.

And I liked this one too

Kinthissa wrote: The four positions of double hand Chansigong are found gradually over some years of practice. When one can guide the qi into place at the side of the waist; when one knows its arrival at dantian and how it spirals up the back; when one is able to conduct its passage through the shoulder and along the arm until qi fills the fingers; when one can adjust oneself at any given moment to nudge the flow along these routes - then one may become free from the positions of Chansigong. The inner flowing, linking, and passing through the four stations interiorly is the true enactment of the taiji. The way, marked on a map, takes on life.

When you say that your intent gets stuck there..it reminds me of the bolded portions. About ‘nudging the flow along'. Is that part of the hard/soft conditioning process? Removing these blockages? If you are sensitive enough to identify a blockage….is there…well….a systematic process for unblocking it? I am assuming that soft-tissue bodywork and/or myofascial release just ain't gonna cut it. Idea: For instance, I assume you can feel where your conscious control of the ‘intent' ends…where the ‘blockage' starts and where, loosely, you can feel the ‘intent' resume on the other side? If that is wrong; let me know. Well…is a ‘hard' method something like; creating that intention (with blockage and all) and having someone beat you with a sock full of rocks on the blockage..to trigger the body to increase blood flow, etc…until it comes around? Is the soft method just to say there irradiating your body with intention until the blockage is removed? I don't know.
I wonder about what is the essence of the blockage/'intent getting stuck'.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: Lately, I''ve been focusing on tilting the pelvis and expanding lower back to initiate movement.

Is it tilting the pelvis ‘backwards'? Did you see the previous references to back-tipping of the sacrum (i.e. counter-nutation)? Is that what you are talking about? Mind saying a bit more on how you feel that helps you do agete? Is it about ‘loading' uke onto your own body?

Cheers man,
Josh

How is a dragon different from a snake, characteristically? Is a dragon a flying snake? naah. I wonder what all that imagery means..

Josh Phillipson wrote: How is a dragon different from a snake, characteristically? Is a dragon a flying snake? naah. I wonder what all that imagery means..

flying snake/lizard. both taste like chicken.

Josh Phillipson wrote: How is a dragon different from a snake, characteristically? Is a dragon a flying snake? naah. I wonder what all that imagery means..

A good pointer is to look at the Aun statues . . (someone remind me, please - is that the root of the Aunkai name?) . .

David Orange wrote: My purpose in posting here is to try to get someone to correct my misconceptions!

Me too! Seriously.
Well, I can't correct you ... so either I can conclude either you are ahead of me or we are both wrong. Sorry...what you write makes sense (!?). And is interesting, to boot.

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: Hi David, it looks like the thread might just head back on track... Returning to the OP, what in your opinion is the best/suggested way to develop these internal abilities/strength/power that you refer to? Without having the option/opportunity to 'touch' or get coaching from an expert at the moment, what would be something practical/simple that a person could potential do to train/develop until that opportunity arises? [Ideas from anyone else would be more than welcome of course!] Thanks.

I'll point to my post in another thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=17

It's a start. I'm not saying it's easy to do, especially reading off of a computer screen with no one around to help. If you have questions about it, let me know.

David Orange wrote: Of course not. You want "dragon back." Not "ass back." I know the feeling. I was watching the Aunkai solo exercises tape last night and one thing I could just feel by watching was how much more relaxed Ark looked than either Rob or Manabu--particularly in the shoulders. He really looks incrediby soft and relaxed, though Rob and Manabu both perform the exercises very well and I know through experience that Rob has tremendous power. But Ark is like a reactor and yet he's so relaxed and soft. Yet he still has trouble from habits built up in gymnastics (according to Rob's earlier post). Must look at that more closely.... Thanks. David

Definitely. Gotta take the power out in the shoulders and in the back. That's the most important thing. Otherwise, you're not doing 'bodyskill' training. I won't call it 'neijia' or 'internal', don't want to get into the 'pure neijia' or 'full banana internal' debate. In any case, the reason why you see Ark so relaxed is because he has destroyed what he would call the 'parasitic elements' in the shoulders and back that impede efficient movement.

"Must look at that more closely...."

Yeah. Take a 6 foot spear, and get into the position of a spear-thrust. But instead of thrusting it forward, you just 'lift' it in an upwards direction. Very simple exercise. Here you learn when to recognize when the shoulder kicks, and to adjust your body to stop your shoulders from firing. At first I would lean back when I feel the shoulder kick in, and continue lifting. As for intent, perhaps you can try to feel the pressure of the spear's weight on the outer hand (because the pressure should be falling the most on that hand) and make the pressure 'fall' to the opposite foot..this should 'lift' the outer hand up and lift the spear. When you raise it to a higher level, the pressure increases (gravity and all that), so your shoulders will react even if you have the intent to lift using jin, so when that happens, readjust again so that your lifting with jin. I did that for about 7 months. Then I started discussing the lower back and expanding it and the back 'suit', so I moved from intent in putting the pressure in the foot, and now I use intent in the lower back (tilt the pelvis) and use the stretch in the back to lift the spear.

Mark Murray wrote: I'll point to my post in another thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=17 It's a start. I'm not saying it's easy to do, especially reading off of a computer screen with no one around to help. If you have questions about it, let me know.

Always good input, Mark, and thanks for making these posts.

David