Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Kind of hard to put a lot of stock into a saying that really doesn't apply to most of the world, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, but it's quick, and it's snappy, so what the hell!?!? Have at it!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: Yeah, but it's quick, and it's snappy, so what the hell!?!? Have at it! Best, Ron

Well, what do I know? LOL! I'm saying, so according to the saying, I don't know. Does that mean I'm saying I don't know? Or I don't know what I'm saying?

William Hazen wrote: I understand what you're trying to convey I think. I just suggest you work on your articulation of Aiki. For the record I never wanted to emulate Usihiba's Aikido I much prefer Shoji Nishio Shihan's interpretation of it. It's a much more technically improved version of it grounded in Budo

I know aikido students love to tell tall tales about the exploits of the master they chose. When did Nishio ever win a challenge match against a sumo champion, or a judo champion? Better yet, in his time he should have been able to effortlessly toy with a UFC heavyweight champion! When did he defeat a iaido master with a live blade while he was empty handed or allow a firing squad to shoot live ammo at him? Hell, when did he even tell a group of regular guys to attack him in any way they wanted so he could prove what you call his technically improved version in a context other than having his own students "attack" with something other than a telegraphed shomen uchi? I know, I know, he could have done all that easilly but it would have been against the "aikido spirit" you speak of. Ueshiba was only able to do these things because of superior technique, not speed or strength from "air rowing", deep breathing or prayer!
Your comment is the perfect example of what the other poster was talking about. You never wanted to emulate the founder because you never witnessed these things because nobody was alive who could do them right in front of you so you probably think that they are myths and impossible for your teacher, you, or anybody else to do so you "don't want to do be able to them"! I bet that Nishio himself would disagree (or would have disagreed? I can't keep track of which of the old timers are even still alive) with your statement himself.

Rick Berry wrote: There is a Rosicrucian saying that's almost as old as time. Those who know don't say; those who say don't know.

Oh, the irony... is that saying ever self-invalidating and a clear oxymoron. I do believe that was redundant. So much for Rosicrucian sayings...

.

Mike Balko wrote: Ueshiba was only able to do these things because of superior technique, not speed or strength from "air rowing", deep breathing or prayer!

Yet, many are arguing the exact opposite.

Your comment is the perfect example of what the other poster was talking about.

I think you've misinterpreted both William's and "the other poster's" comments.

Adam

Mike Balko wrote: I know aikido students love to tell tall tales about the exploits of the master they chose. When did Nishio ever win a challenge match against a sumo champion, or a judo champion? Better yet, in his time he should have been able to effortlessly toy with a UFC heavyweight champion! When did he defeat a iaido master with a live blade while he was empty handed or allow a firing squad to shoot live ammo at him? Hell, when did he even tell a group of regular guys to attack him in any way they wanted so he could prove what you call his technically improved version in a context other than having his own students "attack" with something other than a telegraphed shomen uchi? I know, I know, he could have done all that easilly but it would have been against the "aikido spirit" you speak of. Ueshiba was only able to do these things because of superior technique, not speed or strength from "air rowing", deep breathing or prayer! Your comment is the perfect example of what the other poster was talking about. You never wanted to emulate the founder because you never witnessed these things because nobody was alive who could do them right in front of you so you probably think that they are myths and impossible for your teacher, you, or anybody else to do so you "don't want to do be able to them"! I bet that Nishio himself would disagree (or would have disagreed? I can't keep track of which of the old timers are even still alive) with your statement himself.

How I can comment on this post except to say you seem to have absolutely no clue what you're writing about except to illustrate that this post is a text book example of Argumentum Ad Authoritum...

You want the reader to assume you are writing from a position of experiance and expertise... However the only thing your post shows is that you do not have any factual basis in either Aikido History, O'Sensei relationship with Shoji Nishio, or relevent experiance in the subject matter being discussed...

There is plenty of background information out there for you to research in order for you to actually contribute to this discussion

All you need to do is jump out of the box....

William Hazen

Mike Balko wrote: I know aikido students love to tell tall tales about the exploits of the master they chose. When did Nishio ever win a challenge match against a sumo champion, or a judo champion? Better yet, in his time he should have been able to effortlessly toy with a UFC heavyweight champion! When did he defeat a iaido master with a live blade while he was empty handed or allow a firing squad to shoot live ammo at him? Hell, when did he even tell a group of regular guys to attack him in any way they wanted so he could prove what you call his technically improved version in a context other than having his own students "attack" with something other than a telegraphed shomen uchi? I know, I know, he could have done all that easilly but it would have been against the "aikido spirit" you speak of.

Right... right... right... ...and? you maybe perfectly wrong, too. Not that I particularly agree or disagree with your statement, but the conclusion you seem to point to just isn't very logical.

I'm wondering if you ever met Nishio Sensei, yourself. When it came to the physical (read: martial) side of things, Nishio Sensei was, is and will always be very well respected.

Mike Balko wrote: Ueshiba was only able to do these things because of superior technique, not speed or strength from "air rowing", deep breathing or prayer!

Right... right... right... ah, wrong. Sorry, but if you had the opportunity to have asked O-Sensei, he would have said it was these very things you dismiss that made him the man and martial artist he was. Misogi-no-Gyo was the foundation upon which he built and transmitted his art to his close disciples. You can ask them, well any that are left who might respect you enough to tell you.

Mike Balko wrote: Your comment is the perfect example of what the other poster was talking about. You never wanted to emulate the founder because you never witnessed these things because nobody was alive who could do them right in front of you so you probably think that they are myths and impossible for your teacher, you, or anybody else to do so you "don't want to do be able to them"! I bet that Nishio himself would disagree (or would have disagreed? I can't keep track of which of the old timers are even still alive) with your statement himself.

I met Will Hazen when he came to an Aikido class I was teaching back in the mid-nineties. He was respectful enough, and he made the point then he still makes today. That being that he chose to seek and follow his own teacher, Nishio Sensei and the martial arts at which he was the center. While I am known not to agree that Aikido off the main line is the Aikido of the Founder, that is very much the point of starting something (somewhat) different. Sounds like Yoshinkan, Yoseikan, Shodokan, Shin-Shin Toitsu, ...etc. to me, only that from what I remember, Nishio Sensei remained aligned with the Aiki-kai. Let's remember, O-Sensei, himself did the same thing to some degree when he chose to create Aikido as a martial art form separate from and different than Daito-Ryu. Now, that tiny, little aspect of my point may fall on the deaf ears of Rob, Mike, Dan and others who seem to get a lot of attention for their opinions on O-Sensei's Aikido, but you can't simply dismiss Nishio Sensei because he chose to forge his own path, nor Mr. Hazen for following his very capable teacher. Can you? Then again, you are from Canada, aren't you?

...just for the record, who is your Sensei, by the way?

.

Shaun Ravens wrote: Right... right... right... ...and? you maybe perfectly wrong, too. Not that I particularly agree or disagree with your statement, but the conclusion you seem to point to just isn't very logical. I'm wondering if you ever met Nishio Sensei, yourself. When it came to the physical (read: martial) side of things, Nishio Sensei was, is and will always be very well respected. Right... right... right... ah, wrong. Sorry, but if you had the opportunity to have asked O-Sensei, he would have said it was these very things you dismiss that made him the man and martial artist he was. Misogi-no-Gyo was the foundation upon which he built and transmitted his art to his close disciples. You can ask them, well any that are left who might respect you enough to tell you. only that from what I remember, Nishio Sensei remained aligned with the Aiki-kai. Let's remember, O-Sensei, himself did the same thing to some degree when he chose to create Aikido as a martial art form separate from and different than Daito-Ryu. Now, that tiny, little aspect of my point may fall on the deaf ears of Rob, Mike, Dan and others who seem to get a lot of attention for their opinions on O-Sensei's Aikido, but you can't simply dismiss Nishio Sensei because he chose to forge his own path, nor Mr. Hazen for following his very capable teacher. Can you? Then again, you are from Canada, aren't you? ...just for the record, who is your Sensei, by the way? .

Thanks Shaun...FYI Nishio Shihan started his expression of Aikido and Iaido with the "permission/blessing" of O'Sensei which is part of the reason why we are still affiliated with the Aikikai and his form of Iaido has been recognized by the All Japan Iaido Federation. Also of note is the fact the Government of Japan awarded Shoji Nishio one of it highest civilian honors for his development of Budo before he passed away in March of 2005.

William Hazen

Adam, most people who think that they are doing aikido are completely delusional and in denial as the responses to my post prove. That is what I thought, nobody can address any of the points I made.
Will, thanks for letting me know what my post was a classic example of professor. My knowledge of aikido history comes from reading interviews on Aikido Journal, seeing as how none of the shihan or instructors I have trained with ever bothered to mention a single thing about it. Ueshiba's relationship with Nishio is irrelevant to the subject being discussed. Unlike the vast majority of aikido people I have come across, my "experience and expertise" comes in the form of letting anyone attack me in any way they choose and by testing so-called experts by attacking them in any way I chose WITH advanced warning and their consent of course. I'm nobody and nothing much, yet very few instructors and zero shihan accepted even though many claimed that aikido made it possible to deal with any attack without hurting the attacker, so I guess their concern for my safety wasn't the reason for refusing my humble request. Strangely enough by adopting this training method that they refused to I was able to figure out when a pure aikido lock and throw can realistically be applied, when it is impossible for anyone to succesfully complete one, and that it is impossible to deal with unskilled attacks without striking and injuring your attacker. This "aikido pacifism" that so many people talk about is not a choice you make as the defender but something that is only possible when attacked in ways that make landing an effective strike, breaking an arm or slamming your attacker into the ground impossible and easy to counter.This type of attack is recognizable as it occurs.
Where are the stories of Nishio's exploits Will? Provide one link to back up what you said about his technical superiority in comparison to the founder of the art. Give us one example of Nishio proving himself because I have already read an unhealthy amount of aikido books, articles, interviews and forum posts and I have never come across one.
Shaun, respected by who? Where are the martial artists outside of aikido who say that they were powerless against Nishio?
Apparently Ueshiba also said he learned swordsmanship from a little magic tengu goblin that came down from the mountains and that he was posessed by a deity so it must be true! Do you still believe in Santa Claus also, as illogical as that faiy tale is? Ueshiba was really big on telling his disciples that they could acquire skill by doing what he said and not by doing what he did. The examples of not doing "competitive" training with a resisting partner and not engaging in challenge matches come to mind.
It isn't a matter of shihan respecting me enough to tell me, it's a matter of them trying to figure it out themselves, patching it together as best they could and making it up as they go, they just don't know, they all admit they couldn't really understand Ueshiba's unintelligible gibberish, or duplicate anything he was doing so they didn't really have any choice. Should I respect them just because they took lessons from and were given rank from a powerful martial artist based on his personal relationship with and fondness for them, without them ever having really proven their understanding, skill and ability, often doing just the opposite in Ueshiba's presence and frequently receiving his criticism? The story about Tohei v.s. the wrestler comes to mind. Ueshiba still gave Tohei his blessing and permission to teach. In your opinion respecting shihan just for that would be much more logical? The real question is what can they really do that is so impressive that any martial artist should respect them? I didn't dismiss Nishio because he came up with "something new" (although in my opinion he didn't) I didn't dismiss him at all, I dismiss Will's claim that Nishio's "something new" was technically superior to the original. It might be, unfortunately there just isn't any evidence of that and there never will be since he's dead.
Very good, you recognized the canadian flag under my name, you just got a shiny new dan rank in the art of discrimination, whatever dan ranks are worth or proof of.
My sensei was 6th dan under Saotome, last I heard my ex sensei doesn't practice or teach aikido anymore, maybe because the average guy without any matial arts training of any kind could block or counter all of the techniques he attempted. If you didn't follow along and fall down when you were supposed to it degenerated into a clinch and wrestle. When Saotome came to do $eminar$ only our instructors were given the priviledge of "attacking" him. They were awesome at following along and taking dives for him! I never met Nishio but I did get to "attack" Yoshio Kuroiwa once. He was also "very well respected" with his little twig of a stick and attempts to show the nonexistent connection between boxing punches and aikido techniques. The result was the same as when I "attacked" my instructor except I guess Kuroiwa was too tiny, old, feeble and blind from his boxing career to trade punches anymore or to wrestle so he just gave up trying to apply his ikkyo. I guess that was proof of that "aikido spirit" Willy was talking about? It's funny, I keep reading about how effective Ueshiba's technique was when he was the same age which makes one wonder what exactly Kuroiwa was well respected for? Modifying Ueshiba's art to make it less effective?
Wow, "permission and blessing", how p.c., sounds like that legendary japanese passive aggressive diplomacy to me, too bad what the Aikikai teaches is nothing like what Ueshiba was doing as he stated himself in that quote I read when he said something about being on a path, looking back over his shoulder and seeing that nobody was following him. That was from John Steven's "hagiography" of Ueshiba though so I predict that some amateur historian will claim it is not a reliable source and Ueshiba never said that but from what I have seen and experienced it is accurate if all of the stories about Ueshiba's abilities are actually true and not some great publicity stunt.
Oh! I stand corrected! If the weak, civilian, americanized, lacky, puppet government put into power by the west that banned the practice of martial arts after WW2 gave Nishio an award he must have been totally bad azz!

One thing one has to grant to trolls, they rarely run out of breath. I'm sure it helps them a lot during practice.

Wow... That was amazing....LOL

William Hazen

Shaun Ravens wrote: Not that I particularly agree or disagree with your statement, but the conclusion you seem to point to just isn't very logical.

I'm not in this other than as a reader (i.e., I'm not for or against Balko, Nishio, or anyone), but if his statement isn't logical, Shaun, would it be too much for you to explain where his logic is wrong?

I'm wondering if you ever met Nishio Sensei, yourself. When it came to the physical (read: martial) side of things, Nishio Sensei was, is and will always be very well respected.

Why does Balko have to have met Nishio for his questions to be valid? How did the topic get diverted to Balko personally?

Right... right... right... ah, wrong. Sorry, but if you had the opportunity to have asked O-Sensei, he would have said it was these very things you dismiss that made him the man and martial artist he was. Misogi-no-Gyo was the foundation upon which he built and transmitted his art to his close disciples. You can ask them, well any that are left who might respect you enough to tell you.

Shaun, how is it that you know what O-Sensei or any of his "close disciples" would have said in response to a question?

Then again, you are from Canada, aren't you? ...just for the record, who is your Sensei, by the way?

There we go personally after Balko again. Frankly, I think some of Balko's points and questions should be factually rebutted, if possible, but what I'm pointing out is this typical diversion to personal attack that seems to come up pretty often for a "spiritual" sort of forum.

Mike Sigman

You know, I'm not _totally_ in disagreement with Mike B.

I follow his argument about Nishio not having the same reputation and therefor challenging any claim of passing Osensei. Fair point if you ask me. I wouldn't take it SO FAR to call someone who followed Nishio and believed that to be delusional.

But, delusion is a tough thing. If you are deluded you cannot know it (or you wouldn't be deluded!). I personally saw a 5th or 6th dan (don't know and don't care) of Saotome sensei remark that he was giving up aikido because no one but Saotome sensei could deal with his power. I then watched when he paired up with Gleason sensei at the seminar. He did some bizzare inverted shomen with the thumb leading. Gleason sensei bounced him pretty much by the face about three times each "attack". It was never escalated, and Gleason sensei just attacked and took ukemi when it was his turn. Later I heard that person stopped teaching aikido.

To Mike B's points more directly, I'll offer another story. I heard that Saotome sensei was actually a judo champ in Japan. He met Yamaguchi sensei and was apparently so impressed that he became his uchi deshi. At shodan, I believe Saotome sensei was introduced/given (I have no idea how this works) to Osensei to be his uchi deshi. I believe that "judo champ" must qualify as someone from another martial art being impressed with aikido skill - and of someone other than Osensei.

This quote I want to address becuase it just bugs me a bit:

Should I respect them just because they took lessons from and were given rank from a powerful martial artist based on his personal relationship with and fondness for them, without them ever having really proven their understanding, skill and ability, often doing just the opposite in Ueshiba's presence and frequently receiving his criticism?

I understand the message here, but I would nit pick a bit and say that you should just respect them period, right or wrong, delusional or not. As to the intent of that message, I basically agree. (covering up for the on slaught )

In my case, I found people who could do things I couldn't do. I continue to find such people and I work hard. And Mike B, having felt much the same about things myself, I would offer you the advice that just bitching about not finding such people or being unwilling to play their games to learn in their preferred training methodologies isn't going to get you very far either.

If you want to feel aiki power in a no holds barred match, go visit Dan. I believe Aukuzawa is in DC this weekend - it's not too late to catch a flight.

If you want to experience things you probably cannot do in a more structured aikido class then go find Gleason sensei. I'll bet Ron and Mary who have been on this thread a bunch will also fall into that category and I'm sure there are many others.

If you just can't stand the idea of aikido class in any format (I'm sure Larry the shoto-thug would offer you a less structured opportunity if you approach him) - well - I don't want to speak for Mike Sigman but I'm sure he'd be willing to show you a few things you probably can't do outside of aikido class structure. I'm not sure if he'll offer you an out and out fight but he's online you can always ask him.

Rob

Mike Sigman wrote: I'm not in this other than as a reader (i.e., I'm not for or against Balko, Nishio, or anyone), but if his statement isn't logical, Shaun, would it be too much for you to explain where his logic is wrong? Why does Balko have to have met Nishio for his questions to be valid? How did the topic get diverted to Balko personally? Shaun, how is it that you know what O-Sensei or any of his "close disciples" would have said in response to a question? There we go personally after Balko again. Frankly, I think some of Balko's points and questions should be factually rebutted, if possible, but what I'm pointing out is this typical diversion to personal attack that seems to come up pretty often for a "spiritual" sort of forum. Mike Sigman

Wow this thread sure is going south fast but then again Why am I not surprised...

How is it you can parse this into an attack on one poster without applying the same 'observations" to the other?

Although some of Mr B observations of Aikido are legitimate and have been debated a 100 times here how is it you decided rather than addressing his points yourself and thus contributing to the thread you've decided to pick a side? You contradicted yourself Mike

I've met Shaun and I know him to be an insightful and thoughtful guy I have not met you, or Mr Balko so I can't say anything about the effectiveness of your respective arts. All I know is when challenged to back his "observations" with facts Mr Balko got his feelings hurt and decided not to rebut my observations with facts but by insulting both me, Shoji Nishio and the Japanese Government LOL

I am not sure you read Mr Balko's last post so I will stop here....

Oh well...It's another good day above ground...Time to go enjoy it.

William Hazen

To Shaun Raven's points - I have to say I find it completely plausable that his teacher learned some/all of the purification exercises from Osensei and that such training is incredibly valuable on many levels. Having not experienced them myself I cannot say much further on that subject.

Rob

William Hazen wrote: how is it you decided rather than addressing his points yourself and thus contributing to the thread you've decided to pick a side? You contradicted yourself Mike

I didn't contradict myself, in any legitimate usage of the word. If you mean I didn't point out that every side had some personal stuff that was unnecessary, OK.... but that's my point. No one needs to get into personalities. But particularly not in the usual "let's gang up on him" style that gets tiresome.

I've met Shaun and I know him to be an insightful and thoughtful guy I have not met you,

Nor have I met you... but dragging you personally into the conversation is exactly the sort of thing I was just pointing out. You guys can't seem to resist and then immediately end each post with some spiritual throwoff to show you're above the fray.

My fault for even mentioning it.

Mike

Rob Liberti wrote: You know, I'm not _totally_ in disagreement with Mike B. I follow his argument about Nishio not having the same reputation and therefor challenging any claim of passing Osensei. Fair point if you ask me. I wouldn't take it SO FAR to call someone who followed Nishio and believed that to be delusional. But, delusion is a tough thing. If you are deluded you cannot know it (or you wouldn't be deluded!). I personally saw a 5th or 6th dan (don't know and don't care) of Saotome sensei remark that he was giving up aikido because no one but Saotome sensei could deal with his power. I then watched when he paired up with Gleason sensei at the seminar. He did some bizzare inverted shomen with the thumb leading. Gleason sensei bounced him pretty much by the face about three times each "attack". It was never escalated, and Gleason sensei just attacked and took ukemi when it was his turn. Later I head that person stopped teaching aikido. To Mike B's points more directly, I'll offer another story. I heard that Saotome sensei was actually a judo champ in Japan. He met Yamaguchi sensei and was apparently so impressed that he became his uchi deshi. At shodan, I believe Saotome sensei was introduced/given (I have no idea how this works) to Osensei to be his uchi deshi. I believe that "judo champ" must qualify as someone from another martial art being impressed with aikido skill - and of someone other than Osensei. This quote I want to address becuase it just bugs me a bit: I understand the message here, but I would nit pick a bit and say that you should just respect them period, right or wrong, delusional or not. As to the intent of that message, I basically agree. (covering up for the on slaught ) In my case, I found people who could do things I couldn't do. I continue to find such people and I work hard. And Mike B, having felt much the same about things myself, I would offer you the advice that just bitching about not finding such people or being unwilling to play their games to learn in their preferred training methodologies isn't going to get you very far either. If you want to feel aiki power in a no holds barred match, go visit Dan. I believe Aukuzawa is in DC this weekend - it's not too late to catch a flight. If you want to experience things you probably cannot do in a more structured aikido class then go find Gleason sensei. I'll bet Ron and Mary who have been on this thread a bunch will also fall into that category and I'm sure there are many others. If you just can't stand the idea of aikido class in any format (I'm sure Larry the shoto-thug would offer you a less structured opportunity if you approach him) - well - I don't want to speak for Mike Sigman but I'm sure he'd be willing to show you a few things you probably can't do outside of aikido class structure. I'm not sure if he'll offer you an out and out fight but he's online you can always ask him. Rob

Man just as I was about to go surf...LOL Rob I love this post which by the way mirrors my feelings about all Martial Arts and Artists.

As I have said a hundred times before...How did I come to practice Shoji Nishio's Aikido? Simple criteria really I just went to a bunch of Dojo's here in Southern California to see if I could kick the instructors ass... I went to dozens of places and got really frustrated because I did not experiance Aikido as a Martial Art only Aikido the feel good philosophy...What good is Aikido if it's not practiced as a Martial Art???

I called up Susan Perry of the old Aikido Today Magazine directly and asked her if she knew of anyone here I might like to practice with. I explained my background history in Karate,Judo and Combatives...She gave me Masa Tazaki's number and also mentioned Larry Reynosa along Hiru (spelling) Matsouoka both of them Seagal Yudansha's...

I called up Masa and found he was the Senior Student of someone called Shoji Nishio who was (and still is not) not widely known in the US. Masa is old school...He said he did not want to waste his time with me LOL and introduced me to Mike Fowler who is still my current Sensei. To make a long story short I found what I was looking for...That is my personal experiance....

So folks can harp all they want about Aikido's ineffectiveness but anyone who has been to an Aiki-Expo and seen some of the best practicioners knows that there is some really excellent Aikido out there and that it is very effective as a Martial Art and it's not just Nishio Ryu either...

Hopefully Stan Pranin or someone like him will put together another Aiki-Expo and we can all show up and learn from each other and folks like Balko can see Aikidoka who actually walk the walk....

Good Aikido is out there so stop whining and find it...LOL

William Hazen

Mike Sigman wrote: I didn't contradict myself, in any legitimate usage of the word. If you mean I didn't point out that every side had some personal stuff that was unnecessary, OK.... but that's my point. No one needs to get into personalities. But particularly not in the usual "let's gang up on him" style that gets tiresome.

Did you ask yourself why some folks appeared to "gang up" on him??? Instead... How about supporting his arguments with your own point of view?

Nor have I met you... but dragging you personally into the conversation is exactly the sort of thing I was just pointing out. You guys can't seem to resist and then immediately end each post with some spiritual throwoff to show you're above the fray.

"Above the fray" ??? Of course you don't know me Mike LOL Anyone who knows me knows I love to get in there and mix it up LOL Heck I COULD BE SURFING RIGHT NOW!!! LOL I just asked the guy to explain himself with some actual factual information is all... Instead of just assuming we knew he was an "expert" I think he did an excellent job after some prompting. LOL

My fault for even mentioning it. Mike

No apology needed really...

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: Did you ask yourself why some folks appeared to "gang up" on him???

Sure I did. Some were Nishio guys playing "my style".

LOL (but in a spiritual way... I'm above all this earthly stuff)



Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: No one needs to get into personalities.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...43&postcount=2

Mike Sigman wrote: Sure I did. Some were Nishio guys playing "my style". LOL (but in a spiritual way... I'm above all this earthly stuff) Mike

I am honored you wish to emulate me.

William Hazen

Hello. I'm new to the forum, and don't want to ruffle anyone's feather's, but I thought I'd give my 2 cents here. I agree with you about all of the joy and benifits of aikido that don't involve fighting, but you still can't avoid the fact that aikido is a martial art. Since one of the main purposes of a matial art is to provide a way to defend yourself, it seem logical to expect the techniques that you're learning in class to be practical. I feel that an aikido dojo should be able to offer both the practical and the spiritual side of the art. I'm lucky enough to have a school in my area that does just that. I can go to class, get a great workout, enjoy interacting with the other students, leave with a clear calm mind AND feel confident walking down the street.

Mary Eastland wrote: There! I said it out loud for all to hear. I scratch my head over all the talk about fighting and Aikido...it seems like another planet. Have most people who train in Aikido "to not fight" gone underground...Are you still out there???? Are you afraid to write because of the trends of real fighting and active resistance. If people want to fight ...why don't you fight? Come out...come out wherever you are...I know that there are tons of people here who train in Aikido and are not the least bit interested in fighting. Let's talk about how we don't find any fighting in Aikido. Let's talk about how we meet oursleves and become the whole person we are meant to be. Let's talk about the joy of training. How fabulous it is to really connect with uke....how wonderful it feels to take ukemi at 50 years old...how beautiful it looks to see a 64 year old tiny woman throw a really big man even if it wouldn't work on the street. Let's blend and communicate and enjoy the flow. Mary

Sorry, I had to add a thought. I hope that everyone gets what they're looking for out aikido no matter what it is. However, if your teaching aikido geared toward the soft, spiritual side without concern for practicallity, and someone walks into your dojo looking to learn how to physically defend themselves, you have a moral obligation to tell them that you can offer them that. Otherwise you giving these people a false sense of confidence that could get them seriously hurt.

Seems only fair that we drag this thread out too. ;o)

No fight, no resistance, no enemy,

Peace.G.