Aikido and being Christian

Tolerance: 2: a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior
is what I am referring to. Christ is the judge not I Sin must be attended to with regards to the laws of man, if your sin against God and break mans law(rape murder etc) you must be punished accordingly and judged by god. If you sin and the law of man is NOT(lust coveting etc) broken that is between you and God and you will be judged accordingly. The very mandate of god is free choice to accept or not to accept. God is tolerant of all his children to a point, and when judgment comes that tolerance ends.

lots of stuff. My head is really beginning to hurt taking in all this information and trying to organize it.

I would agree with Peter Goldsbury on many of his points of course, especially about aikido and the non-connection to any religion.

I suppose what I am exploring or trying to dissect is this.

What happens when the core princples and values of aikido do not allign with the principles/values/beliefs of an individual?

I am talking way beyond the typical focus we get with religious based discussions of the whole shomen, bowing, philosophy thing...but down to the core of what is important.

The founder had some a very definitive belief about the practice of aikido and what the practice would lead to. It was based largely on his beliefs that stemmed from his life experiences and that from Omoto-Kyo.

Do these underpinnings still carry weight and how much influence to they have on the goals of aikido today? (not sure I am saying that right). Have they become so watered down, that aikido is essentially a secular practice that we do good to feel good about ourselves? If so, what is the importance to that.

I am really interested at a very base level of how some Christians make that connection. I do believe it can be done, but I get very confused about the dogma presented that sometimes seems to be contrary at some level to the goals of budo. (it could be simply my lack of understanding.)

Maybe the questions should be turned, not toward Christianity or any religion, but toward aikido.

What role does tolerance, compassion, humanism and all that play in aikido?

Mathew, I was referring to your approach/delivery not your exact verbiage with my earlier posts. I believe you share a similar feverish devotion to your faith as I do and I admire that in you. May God continue to bless you in all that you do. Unfortunately in my opinion the true message is lost in semantics and this post has become that very example. Until next time God Bless.

BK

I enjoy the background history of O'Sensei and the development of Aikido. I enjoy the romantic idealism and altruistic purpose of Aikido. I enjoy the observation of spirituality and sanctity in training.

Ueshiba Sensei was notorius for deliberate action and vagueness. Aikido is constructed in such a way to accomodate many different religious beliefs without sacrificing that which we hold as central to our religion(s). He was very proactive to put the burden of spiritual resolution on the individual, and challenge students to look introspectively at their beliefs and values. This was his invitation to us to learn aikido, not to mock an old man's exercise routine.

In our world, we do many things to preserve our life. We take vitamins and eat. We excercise. We see the doctor when we are sick. We go to church (or wherever). Aikido is a tool to keep my body, mind and spirit healthy. My first understanding is that Aikido will keep my body healthy. My second understanding is that Aikido will alter my conscious and attitude in respect to many things. My third understanding is that Aikido is not a replacement for my religion, but a supplement to becoming comfortable spiritually. These three understandings help me place Aikido in my life without conflict to my religion, my job, my wife, or those things that are most dear in life.

Thanks for your post Jon!

So it sounds like that aikido enriches your life in many ways, which ultimately makes you a happier person! Which is a good thing!

Mathew,

I appreciate your posts very much. I have never seen fundamental Christianity explained so concisely. (One might ask though, if that's the whole truth, why leave behind such a confusing record as the New Testament, so open to misinterpretation.)

But here's my question...

Matthew Materazzi wrote: The only way to be completely holy, pure, and clean in His sight is to be covered in the robe of righteousness that only Jesus can offer...and it is not by anything we can do. It comes as a free gift, by His sacrifice. Just believe it, and you will be saved.

Those to me are a conflicting statements. Salvation is given, not as a result of something we do. And yet we are asked to do something (believe). So then it is by our own doing that we receive salvation... how does that work?

Hi James,
thanks for your comments. As for your question, I will try to answer it as best I can. I do not claim to know all the answers, nor have the whole truth worked out, because it is impossible for a man to have those things. Remember that God is God, and "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 55:8) If we knew every single detail, every answer, not only would our minds be uncapable of understanding it, but we would be able to control it. God is not something that we can control, and believe me, we would not want to. This brings about worship. With that being said now, we believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and it cannot contradict itself. So, this means that we cannot take every single verse of the Bible and apply it to us in today's age...some texts were concerning the people it was written to (i.e. The Israelites, pharisees, etc...) and some apply to all. Some only apply to believers, and some apply to unbelievers.
To answer your question on Salvation being a gift, freely given, and yet to seem like a "work" of ourselves to do something- "believe" I can only offer my own answer based on Biblical Scriptures...and that is this: Even if someone lives out there life, with no claim to Christ Jesus at all, and they are on their death beds, and before they die, they repent of their life of sin, and truly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died for thier sins, they are not only saved, but throughout their entire life, they were already chosen by God and really believed in His Son, though they did not want to admit it to themselves, or something in their life was holding them back.
Because right now I am on a limited time schedule, I am going to direct the rest of this reply to a well done piece of work based on your question. It is rendered by Steven Shaw, and he sums up the answers pretty well, and his thoughts ARE my thoughts, lol. Hope this helps:

All would agree that there is a distinction between faith and works, but if it is a prerequisite for Grace, then surely it becomes a work? If Grace is dependant on us producing our faith in Christ - turning to God - then Grace is dependant on us doing something, it is then dependant on some form of works, and no longer Grace.
"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Rom 11:6)leads to:
How does it work in relation to our salvation - how are we saved by faith?

Where does our faith come from?
From God:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)
"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." (1Cor 12:7-9)
"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Rom 12:3)
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Heb 12:2)

Why not from us?
"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless" (Rom 3:10-12)
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." (Eph 2:4-5)
We are dead in our sin and unable to choose God, so God in His GREAT mercy chose us, the elect, even while we were dead in our sin and actively opposing God, made us alive in Christ and brought us to salvation.

It is through this faith which God gave us that we are saved. We are given faith to believe in Christ and accept His sacrifice for us, then God's wrath is satisfied and Christ's righteousness is imputed onto us - We are credited as righteous and washed clean.

Praise be to God who in His perfect righteousness saves us despite our sins!

All quotes on this page (except James 2:14 - NASB) are taken from the NIV.

Copyright Steven Shaw 2001

So, not only does the New Testament not conflict with the message of being saved by Grace through faith alone, but it is the only way a man can come to know the Lord. God does it all. He gives us the gift, and then He recieves it through us for His own glory. As hard to fathom as this might be, this is the only message that seperates Christianity from every other religion in the world. God is totally in control. If you are sincere in your askings, and really "hope it could all be true," then that is God working already...calling you.
There are many more things we can discuss about this topic, and also repentance, how that too is God initiated.
Until next time,
Matthew

James,
just a short add on here. The reason that true Christianity must be presented and understood as such a seperate "religion" is because one can take the teachings of Jesus Christ alone, with no regard to his death and resurrection (which if, by the way, did not occur, then we would have nothing to base our faith on), and mix those teachings with many other religious beliefs, philosophies, ideaologies, etc... to create some "truth" which speaks to their feelings and emotions and "works for them." This would give justification to the statement: "All paths lead to God, if they are sincere." This could be true if Jesus did not die and rise again. Without the significant events that took place at Calvary, then there would be no need to argue that Jesus is the only way to heaven. If He just died and there was no resurrection, all paths could lead to God...in theory. Though Judaism would still be the only truth and the world would still be waiting for a messiah.
But Christ is the great stumbling block to mankind. And to pervert the message of the Gospel by watering down the truth that Jesus spoke: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:6-7), is not the gospel at all. This is why for the people who claim to be Christians and do not claim that Jesus is the only way to heaven are either confused or they do not know Him. I was confused also, and believe me, I still get confused, lol. I still have my doubts and fears and troubles, like all Christians...but the more I just leave it in God's hands, the easier life is.
I hope that this makes some sense and clears some clouds for you. Any teaching that says there is many ways to get to God is not Christianity. I don't know what it is.
In Him,
Matthew

Hi folks,

Once again, please stick to the topic of this thread which is about "Aikido and being Christian." If this topic continues to discuss religion in general, I will move the thread to the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Hi Jun,
I whole heartedly believe that these posts by not only myself, but others also, directly reflect the issue of aikido and how it relates to being a Christian. Because ultimately, the two have nothing in common. One is based on a system of self defense, deeply rooted in a Shinto/Omoto religion, the other is a gift freely given by the God of the universe. The importance of talking about a "religion" like Christianity is to show how different it is to everything else, because there are people who believe that what aikido offers is just as good as any religion. I would say "Yes! This is true." Aikido can be looked at with the same eyes as Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christian Science, etc...however, because Christianity is NOT a religion, but a relationship with Jesus Christ and belief in Him alone, it is different from religions of the world. To say that the posts are "getting off track" is not really the case, because anytime someone brings up Christianity and how it relates to something other than Christ Jesus becomes something other than Christianity. You could say "Aikido and the teachings of Jesus Christ, diregarding all of His teachings about Him being the only way to salvation or His death or His resurrection or His ascention into heaven," and then discuss how those two topics relate to each other. But, to post a thread stating, "Aikido and Being a Christian," and then to discuss anything other than how it is possible to be a Christian and learn aikido self defense minus the mysticism...anything about how they relate to each other is "getting off track." They do not relate to each other. Anything that takes the focus off of Jesus Christ is not Christianity, so the real question might be, "Can true Christianity be discussed with regards to an aikido website?"
Sincerely,
Matthew

Matthew Materazzi wrote: But, to post a thread stating, "Aikido and Being a Christian," and then to discuss anything other than how it is possible to be a Christian and learn aikido self defense minus the mysticism...anything about how they relate to each other is "getting off track." They do not relate to each other.

Then, please, discuss how they do not relate -- not on general religion. This is not a website about religion, after all, but on aikido.

My request still stands as is.

-- Jun

I challenge Matt as well to drag the topic back on point:

Granted that faith is expressed in the works we choose or are called to perform. Conflict is a matter in which we are not ncessarily given to choose, but rather it may choose us ( a very different form of vocation, but no less valid, even so) Conflict typically does not consult our particular feelings in the matter. Christianity and Aikido both have useful suggestions about the management of undesired conflict. Neither has much to say about the active instigaiton of conflict, except negatively, the temple scouring being a notable exception.

I am sorry you have personally abandoned the practice of aikido, as you prior posts indicate. And yet your interest and participation continues. Even if your only remaining interest is proselytizing, we should still engage with one another on common ground. The essential purposes of Aikido and Chrisitanity may be, in your view, incompatible, but that does not per se show that their means are not compatible. This still leaves them potentially helpful cooperative partners in a common venture to deal with undesired conflict.

Professor Goldsbury's point is well taken. O-Sensei himself, as shown in his commetns to his uchideshi Andre Nocquet Sensei, certainly saw Aikido as an aid and adjunct to the practice of any religion. He just as clearly did not see it as any substiitute or independent system of belief or basis for faith.

The pen and paper are not the mountain that one may depict with them. Drawing one's own image of the mountain may aid one in understanding it, however. However imperfectly, it may also allow one to transmit an idea or sense of the mountain to others who have not seen it, or at least not this side of it.

Aikido and Christianity have useful things to impart to one another, regardless whether one subscribes to a monolithic, crystalline worldview or one that is more ineffable and organic in sensibility.

To focus on compatibility of means then, rather than ends: Please tell us how Aikido does NOT answer up to the Christian admonition to turn the other cheek, especially as Himself was silent on what to do when the poor fool took the second swing?

Cordially,
Erick Mead

I second Jun's request. There is enough conflict and devisiveness in the world. We should all be trying to figure out how to get along and live together.

If you look at it from a strictly statistical standpoint, Christians only make up 1/3 of the worlds population. That is alot of other people out there that all don't necessarily think alike. You aren't going to convert them all over, and yet, we need to all get along somehow!

So, I find it much more constructive to discuss how aikido and Christianity can interact to help reconcile much of the conflict we have in the world.

If this is not your cup of tea, I don't understand why you would waste your time with an art such as aikido or with aikiweb that pretty much has as one of it's goals to create good/happy people that want to promote peace and harmony in the world.

Erick,
to try and answer your question (some of your wording is a bit confusing though) the teachings of Jesus Christ in my Scriptural opinion are that it is impossible to do what Jesus told us to do. He not only said to turn the other cheek, but He also said to love your nieghbor as yourself. We do not do that...and the example I'll give you is an easy scenario in that you and I own a business together. I am going to make sure that my end is taken care of first, as you would yours. This is not loving your nieghbor as yourself. Jesus was telling the people of Jerusalem these things because He was "stacking the deck" against them. He was bascially adressing the self-righteous problem of Israel, which they were up to their necks in. He told them that not only would it be impossible for a rich man to enter into heaven, but also if they looked lustfully at a woman, they committed adultery. Do you see it? Jesus kept all of these laws perfectly for us. With His death, He said, I will take your place on that cross...EVERYONE. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This is not pre-redemption alone, but post-redemtion as well. "On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17) Who needs God? Someone who can do it on their own (or try to anyways) or someone who knows they can't? The greatest discovery is knowing your own shortcomings, knowing your weakness, your faults...compare yourself to Christ, for your entire life, and see just how "good" you are...and then surrender, knowing that you can never do it. You can't measure up, because in essence, Jesus was proclaiming that unless you were just like Him, you wouldn't get into heaven. And this is how we can- through Him alone. How does someone please God? "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6) "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (Romans 16-17) "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:21-23) "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20). We please God by believing in Jesus Christ as our only means of Salvation, thus Christ now lives in us by power of the Holy Spirit, and we do become just like Him, through faith...not our flesh, for that is dead and full of sin...Morihei Ueshiba believed that it was a matter of the flesh as well as the spirit, baptizing himself daily and performing the aikido ritual to perfect himself, while denying that Jesus was God, and He alone could save. This is actually blasphemy, my friend. It is by faith we believe that Jesus did it all for us, that we do not contribute to our own salvation that makes Christianity and aikido meet at odd ends.
To Kevin,
no one is good, no one can become good...this lie is what sends people out of God's sight. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
There was only one who was perfect and good. He died for you. It is not the goal of Jesus Christ to unite all of mankind. Jesus said:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-36)
What makes you think all of humanity should be united if Jesus Himself said it wouldn't happen?
The reason I am "wasting my time" on here is simple: To tell people what Christianity is, and to stop the perversion of the Gospel as it was being done by people who said they were followers of Christ.

-In Christ,
Matthew

Last warning to take this thread back to the topic before I move it to the Open Discussions forum or close it outright...

Thanks,

-- Jun

Matthew Materazzi wrote: ... in my Scriptural opinion [is] that it is impossible to do what Jesus told us to do.

While the text may be inspired, respectfully, I have no evidence that your opinion of it is. That is the reason for the apostolic tradition and the faithful lineage of teaching, yet another aspect of means that Aikido and traditional Christianity deeply share.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: .... He told them that not only would it be impossible for a rich man to enter into heaven, but also if they looked lustfully at a woman, they committed adultery.

This is a point that the late John Paul II dwelt upon, at tremendously detailed length, in his "Theology of the Body." The problem of intention is at the heart of sin as it is at the heart of Aikido. Violence, like lust, occurs. It our intentions that follow from our lustful nature, our violent natures that determine the value of our actions. Desire, an empty quality, desperately waiting to be filled, underlies all sin, and all violence. It also interferes with good Aikido. "Uke did the attack WRONG!! And now I can't do my spiffy iriminage RIGHT!!" [POUT!] Guess what. Uke gets to play too. Share. Iriminage was no longer the technique. Our desire for what is not blinds us to what is actually in front of us.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: thus Christ now lives in us by power of the Holy Spirit, and we do become just like Him, through faith...not our flesh, for that is dead and full of sin...

On this we part company. You describe a heresy known as Manicheism or Catharism which holds that flesh is irredeemably evil. The flesh is not inherently evil, and for which the first scripture suffices to show. (See Genesis:: "He saw that it was good.") Moreover, the flesh is necessary to God's purpose in ways that are mysterious and difficult to fully comprehend. Else the Incarnation ("enfleshing" "embodiment") would be irrelevant.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: Morihei Ueshiba believed that it was a matter of the flesh as well as the spirit, baptizing himself daily and performing the aikido ritual to perfect himself, while denying that Jesus was God, and He alone could save. This is actually blasphemy, my friend.

O-Sensei said no such thing. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of misogi to believe otherwise. Asceticism simply means adherence to discipline. Whether it be medieval hairshirts, Baptists refraining from strong drink and dancing, or Shinto winter waterfall misogi or chinkon kishin, these are disciplines. They are means, not ends in themselves. The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath. These are tools by which the spirit is used to master and rein the flesh to good purpose, not to destroy or denigrate the flesh as evil. Flesh is innocent, spirit is also, unless we choose otherwise. The mind that directs is guilty as it chooses, not merely as the body does.
Aikido is such a discipline. So is the Rosary for God's sake. Or memorization of the quoted text of the Bible for that matter.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." ... Matthew 10:34-36)

This is the precise paradox in which Christianity and Aikido have so much in common. they share a reverence for the means of a very militant pacifism, at the very least, and the proximate ends they have in mind, if not the ultimate ones.

Turning the other cheek -- wielding not peace but a sword. Christianity and Aikido both serve to deal with either one at need.

Jesus describes the pregnant tension of human existence, waiting expectantly to bear forth either a wonder or a horror.

Let it be a wonder. Your choice.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Jun,
you might as well move this thread, as you seem to be threatening my posts, because they cut to the chase, while letting others' pass because they glorify aikido and hold no threat or consequence...they are meaningless ramblings.
Erick, you said: "Jesus describes the pregnant tension of human existence, waiting expectantly to bear forth either a wonder or a horror." No. Jesus was describing Himself, not a pregnant tension of human existence. Those who believe in Him will be divided from the world who does not believe...this was the case when He walked the earth and it still is the case today, and it will be the case when the end comes, and the christians are put to death for His name, because they will refuse to be apart of a one-world unified "peaceful" mankind. As for your statement on flesh: "Flesh is innocent, spirit is also, unless we choose otherwise. The mind that directs is guilty as it chooses, not merely as the body does." You are describing a heresy by calling flesh innocent when the Bible clearly states that our flesh is dead, because of sin. What in the world do you think that Jesus came here for? The Genesis verse you refer to : "See Genesis:: "He saw that it was good." is talking about God's entire creation, including man, flesh and all...before man disobeyed God and let sin into the creation. "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12) If flesh is innocent and pure, then why was God sad that He had created it? "And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:6-7) You said :"Moreover, the flesh is necessary to God's purpose in ways that are mysterious and difficult to fully comprehend. Else the Incarnation ("enfleshing" "embodiment") would be irrelevant." We agree! Jesus had to take on our "costume" as it were. Then, He was perfect through out His life...something we can't be. He was perfect both in Spirit and in flesh; this is why He had to be born of a Virgin...so that the seed was of imperishable and sin-free seed. Morihei Ueshiba proclaimed that it was the time for training, not the time to put our lives into the hands of Jesus, or any other teacher. This is exactly the opposite of christianity. (Jun, I am showing the differences here...what is the problem, exactly?)
If I am speaking of a heresy, then so was Paul, and for that matter, Jesus Himself: "Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8) and Paul said : "For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:19-21) and "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)
This does not mean that since our flesh is weak, sinful, and ultimately dead, that we can just go around doing whatever we want without consequence...but a true believer does not do that anyways. We want to please God, because we are His. Only by faith we can do that. "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:27-29)
Take care,
Matt....probably our last meeting if Jun does what she will.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: Jun, you might as well move this thread, as you seem to be threatening my posts, because they cut to the chase, while letting others' pass because they glorify aikido and hold no threat or consequence...they are meaningless ramblings.

Ah, Jun ... please let us explore this osae-waza a little more thoroughly before we tap it out. We shall keep him to topic.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: Erick, you said: "Jesus describes the pregnant tension of human existence, waiting expectantly to bear forth either a wonder or a horror." No. Jesus was describing Himself, not a pregnant tension of human existence.

Jesus was a human existence, or had the temptations on the heights and in the Garden meant nothing? Jesus suffered the pains and the joys of existence. He engaged in conflict, and did not shrink from entering directly.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: the Bible clearly states that our flesh is dead, because of sin.

Death is death; life is life. Neither is necessarily evil nor necessarily good. Life is to be preferred, but not for the doing of evil, in which case, choose death. On this point, Christianity and Budo are truly in one accord.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: "Else the Incarnation ("enfleshing" "embodiment") would be irrelevant." We agree! Jesus had to take on our "costume" as it were.

On this we find a further heresy, Monophysitism, or Nestorianism, also common among various stripes of gnosticism: the belief that Jesus was truly divine but not truly human. This is not the orthodox Nicene Creed.
Compare OSensei's Doka No. 19 in Budo Renshu (tr. Bieri& Mabuchi):

Sincerity
More and more with all your heart
Practice and perfect
The essential Unity of the Two Worlds
Come to know its truth

This has much in common with Christian attitudes. It accepts the identity of the Human and Divine (which Christ personifies) without disturbing their proper order, neither debasing the divine nor unduly elevating the human.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: Morihei Ueshiba proclaimed that it was the time for training, not the time to put our lives into the hands of Jesus, or any other teacher. This is exactly the opposite of christianity. (Jun, I am showing the differences here...what is the problem, exactly?)

Ah, but it must be a TRUE difference, and for which the assumption stated is not true. O-Sensei said no such thing. What is temporal existence for if not for training? Why not just speak the magic words and then stand in front of a train, thus assured of immortality? (seventy virgins anyone?). Because that is also a perverted desire. The thing we were put here to learn about and for which we fell from our innocence: the knowledge of good AND evil. "O happy fault of Adam, that gained for us so great a Redeeemer." We are engaged in a far greater purpose than recovering simple, ignorant innocence, and which end is not yet known to anyone.
The body teaches the soul and the soul instructs the body. On this tradition, Christian teaching and AIkido are also in one accord. Salvation does not enter into it on this point.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So... Faith is not enough, a little sprinkling is in order? Waterfall misogi perhaps? The point being that human temporal existence is not superfluous in the divine plan. Training, effort is required, not for our salvation (which, begin given freely even at great cost to our Redeemer, is perhaps not even the most important thing about Christian teaching), but to fulfill our ultimate purpose in being here.

Matthew Materazzi wrote: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8) ...Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:27-29)

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind." What is it to believe in Him? To say magic words? I think not. Teach as he taught. Do as he did. Be not afraid. O-Sensei was hardly perfect. But did O-Sensei, knowingly or not, strive to live in imitation of Christ, trying to fulfill a selfless devotion to the good of his fellow men? I find it difficult not
to believe that.

I beg Jun's continued patience to work through Matt's rhetoric. He has not yet learned to preach the unknown god to the Athenians.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

While this thread is thrashing around in hell, I'd like to tell you all about how I taught the turning the cheek thing in a demonstration. After my face was slapped I turned "all the way around until I was standing in a safe place beside and behind."

In gassho

Ok, so, how is it then, that a new born baby, is sinnful? Does he have an evil heart or is it taught to him (or her)? I do not beleive that a baby is sinnful. I think they are innocent until they are taught cetain aspects of humanity.

I still say Aikido can and does have cleansing like abilities, meaning you can become better through your aikido and religion. I do not think that Aikido takes away anything from religion and my personal interpretation is that it enhances it!!!!!

My thoughts only, take it for what it is!!!

The reason I asked about the baby is to see why someone would say that all humans are sinners!!! Not trying to be off topic, sorry!!!!!!

Brother, Matt...I commend you for writing the things you're writing on this thread. They're totally, 100% true and orthodox. God bless you. Also...I have recently come to the conclusion myself that Christianity and Aikido are 2 very different things and belief systems...well...it's obvious with the religious aspect of it...but you know what I mean, lol. I still like Aikido...I still practice Aikido...but personally...I just don't believe it to be in accordance with orthodox Christianity. It's not a sin or anything...it's far from being bad...but...on the spiritual and theological levels...they're very different and do not compliment each other.

To Kevin, no one is good, no one can become good...this lie is what sends people out of God's sight

Where in the world did I say that? IMHO people exist...they are neither good nor bad they simply "are". Good and bad are relative judgements based on perception and society. What would represent "bad" in my book is that which causes "harm".

People can choose certain actions a responses. Those actions may be judged good, or bad depending on the circumstance. How this relates to aikido is that it is a physical practice that shows us that their are many options to dealing with things/situations that are presented to us in life.

To me, this concept lay outside of religion and any dogma and can be accepted universally by all humans. If you choose not to, then that is your choice. drive on.

The reason I am "wasting my time" on here is simple: To tell people what Christianity is, and to stop the perversion of the Gospel as it was being done by people who said they were followers of Christ.

I beleive we understand your position. and as you stated, unless I misunderstand, you don't see how aikido and christianity can be reconciled, so what else is there to say other than to re-hash the same old thing?

I believe Jun's point (at least mine is this!), that the topic has become "off" since it is dealing with only "I'm right, your wrong", and is not constructive and seeking to understand how the two concepts can work together.

I think in this world we have plenty of people out there that understand the underpinnings of the causes of conflict and differences we all have, what we really need is people that can offer new insight, understanding, and solutions on how we can solve conflict and problems....not to furtther point out the differences.

Do you have anything to contribute to how a Christian might be able reconcile personal beliefs with those of aikido, or is it simply going to be more of "it doesn't work good together"?

Sorry to be so blunt, but that is the long and short of it I believe.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I believe Jun's point (at least mine is this!), that the topic has become "off" since it is dealing with only "I'm right, your wrong", and is not constructive and seeking to understand how the two concepts can work together. ...... Do you have anything to contribute to how a Christian might be able reconcile personal beliefs with those of aikido, or is it simply going to be more of "it doesn't work good together"?

I concur. There is far too much useful correspondence to be had in actually finding common ground in which Aikido and Christianity can each inform the other.
We can move beyond the following pointless paradigm some frame their argument around.
Aikido = WRONG. Christianity=RIGHT
It is like saying Air = Right and Health Insurance = Wrong.
One is more immediate and one much less so. In the proper circumstance each may save your life, and the lack may cost you dearly.
This is particularly so when the versions of each we keep hearing are not necessarily anything but a narrow personal opinion of the faith or of the art, as I keep gently tying to point out.

There is much here to usefully discuss in relating the TWO of them. I hope it can be done. I will try.

Cordially,

Erick Mead

Nick Porter wrote: Russ- no offense is taken. It's best that we first stamp out our own insecurities, before dealing with those of others. God and Satan both dwell within us, and I believe it is part of our faith to try to rid ourselves of Satan to find salvation. And also- no one has answers. That's why we're human. Ask God the questions, and in His time, in His way, He'll answer them. Such is our faith, -Nick

I don't know what has gotten you thinking that God and Satan both dwell inside all of us but you couldn't be more wrong and that is sad. If God is in you then Satan isn't. The Bible makes it pretty clear when it talks about having to bind the strong man to be able to take his house.
Real Godly people are not ever and can never be possessed by demons or satan. Influences maybe, Troubled sometimes yes. But the 2 can't exist in the same place.