Issues for Women in Aikido

Ahmad,

I really like it when I get a strong grip because it really forces me to do proper technique. Even though I am a large woman, I still don't have the upper body strength to muscle my way out of grips.

However, I have found that sometimes I need to be directed by my more advanced and usually male partners in getting out of the grip. Otherwise, it just becomes a frustrating exchange and no training occurs. This might be the problem. They are getting frustrated. Yes, there is a way to get out but if you can't explain help them then your behaviour gets interpreted as counter-productive.

The degree which this should be done depends on the skill level of your female partners. If they are totally new, give them time to get the form of the technique. As they learn take the resistance up a degree, but don't totally lock out on them. As suggested ask them if they want a little more resistance, then be prepared to help how to do the technique right. If you don't know yourself (I don't know your skill level), then sensei should do the direction.

From experience, I usually appreciate my higher ranking male partners to provide resistance to their grips as long as the attitude is positive and non-ego inflating. Otherwise, I ask them to quit it since I have plenty of partners who are helpful.

Anne Marie

Anne,

Hmm... i agree absolutely that as uke, its not our job to frustrate our nage with superstrong grips. I also subscribe to your thoughts on gradually increasing resistance according to the skills of nage. Beginners won't have much of a problem with me, but only if they perform the technique according to its form. (at their level, form is more important then function). But at 4th kyu and above I put in more resistance to make it harder for them to do techniques wrongly.

However this somewhat arbitrary type of gradual increase in resistance is quite troublesome when training with strangers (ie other dojos) since you can't really tell their skill levels from their belts. I suppose in that atmosphere, your suggestion for uke to ask nage on their difficulty preference would be most applicable. I do however think that whatever the case maybe, nage at 1st kyu and above must be able to handle the extreme most resistance from any uke. Otherwise, his/her belt isn't worth anything and he/she might be an embarrasment to the sensei. What do you think?

I don't feel pressure points much either, and I have pretty big arms, so I think it's just pain tolerance that makes the difference.

and... not another one that doesn't feel pressure point pain. Is it just yonkyo or have you girls tested the other points in your arms and body? I've met some ppl who can virtually shrug nikyo's off because of their flexibility. I guess thats just good training for me not to take for granted that all our techniques would work for an attacker.

Ahmad said: I do however think that whatever the case maybe, nage at 1st kyu and above must be able to handle the extreme most resistance from any uke. Otherwise, his/her belt isn't worth anything and he/she might be an embarrasment to the sensei. What do you think?

I completely agree with you. (However, I would not fault the student for the sensei's embarrasment [if you are not implying this, then forgive my presumption]. I would fault the sensei for not teaching them or for not creating an atmoshpere to teach them appropriately.)

I'm at 4th kyu and I am just now training to really understand how to really make techniques more effective. My sempai, no matter the gender, make sure I do it that way. (And after about two years in aikido the responses and variations to one technique are revealing themselves.) It should be that way. Otherwise it would be dance. What's the point if I can't do the technique against a stronger attacker? That's the whole point for me taking aikido. Yeah, I don't want to be at 1st kyu stuck in a katatetori attack and not being able to do shihonage.

Is your concern is that this is not happening in your dojo?

I guess I just want to let you know there are women out there in this world who appreciate the help (as long as it is not patronizing or ego-inflating).

Anne Marie

yep, I meant it that way. The sensei would be embarrased because he has not produced a quality student yet has given him a grading. A good benchmark of a sensei would be the students he produce, I say.

Yeah, I don't want to be at 1st kyu stuck in a katatetori attack and not being able to do shihonage.

precisely. And unfortunately you will encounter some people like that anywhere. I guess, certain ppl have just not made the effort necessary to improve themselves. The sensei would then be forced to evaluate his priorities (ie to grade to give a sense of progression for the student or to maintain a rigid quality benchmark). For me, the belt doesn't matter cause progress is from within.
But some ppl like wearing colorful belts on their waist.

Lastly, I'm very careful so as not to patronize women. But sometimes, this equality thing has gone to such absurd levels that I find myself (hypothetically speaking of course) in a fix. But I hope going about stuff with honest sincerity would be enough to mitigate any misunderstanding.

on the pressure points, i found a lot of my friends can't feel them also, most of them are women. I don't think it's so rare, maybe it's women's handicap

on gender, i'm a women, but on the mat i'd sincerely ask the guys to grip hard, throw hard. Not because of baggage, but i want to learn this thing the right way.

Abas, if you get chided for being to hard.. i suppose that's the price u get for being right. I think women are suppose to train just the same way as men. No pain, no gain. (*if not, why take martial arts in the first place?*)

Many men and women in the dojo I trained are quite immune tothe yon-kyo pressure point application. Me, I just got used to it, it doesn't bother me that much anymore.

But the point in yon-kyo is not the pressure point, but the whole form of it. Being able to bother somebody else's pressure point is just a bonus.

Most of the women in the dojo I train don't like it when men just "fake" a fall. To them that's worse than not being able to do the technique. They feel like they're being cheated on.

They are also very critical to any Aikidoka that is just staging the technique. I guess this is because of my sensei's upbringing. In the dojo all men and women are equal.

Personally, I treat the women in the dojo with respect by not "faking" that a technique was done properly. As an uke, I have a responsibility to inform the nage if the technique was done correctly or not. This is true for men and women in the dojo.

Like Ran-chan said...
No pain, no gain. (*if not, why take martial arts in the first place?*)

Hey, I'm not the other unregistered, and not a woman. My dojo has quite a few women, and one of our two sensei is a woman as well. Both sensei have different Aikido, but are both IMO really good teachers. From the students side, the only thing i've noticed is that women have different basic lacks than men, senseis tend to work with them more on establishing a presence while they work more on the men on quieting their presence.. don't know how to explain, on ukemi, women can get really aggressive but at the same time their attacks are less violent than aggressive, while some beginnig men can scowl up a storm while offering a really wimpy attack.
that sort of thing.

I do have a question on how to make Aikido more attractive to women. My wife basically refuses to even consider getting on the mat, mostly because of the perceived lack of femininity on the part of the women that practice. I just wish she would try, Aikido really must be experienced, not talked about.

It's interesting that your wife doesn't choose to practice because of the perceived lack of femininity on the part of the women. I find many women in my dojo to be feminine, and these women are high ranking and have been practicing for years. These woman are petite and graceful yet their technique powerful. I guess I would like to know her definition of femininity. Aikido can be rather graceful and I have always viewed it to be a martial art that doesn't take this away from a woman.

I come from a dojo as well that has both male and female sensei, a husband/wife team as a matter of fact. He's 6th dan and she's 5th dan. Penny really prefers to emphasize the larger circular movements found in aikido. But I caution anyone from calling her a "flower" .

Anne Marie

I really don't know. I agree with what you say, yet it doesn't strike a chord with her at all. I don't know if its the fact that its a martial art instead of a "yoga" type class, or that the participants are involved in attack, or that because I'm sometimes over-enthusiastic and come home bruised up from breakfalls or have been roufhed up a little on shihonage, or because of the marks left by beginners trying to see if just squeezing a bit harder will make yonkyo hurt (and end up with finger marks all over my forearm (I don't mind it don't hurt that much) .

as I said I don't know. MA, are not for everyone I guess, and that's just her excuse. However I would really really like her to give it a shot, I'm sure once involved the gracefulness of the art will be apparent to her.

In any case , the women at my dojo are not large musclebound people either, she just finds the activity no in her taste for the reasons I quoted on this rather tricky subject.

Okay, I think I see what you mean. It's just that martial arts are not for her. I'm sure she can benefit from it, but she probably just thinks its too rough for her -- especially if your coming home with bruises. Heck, I wouldn't blame her. I would feel the same way except I grew up with two older brothers and took TKD when I was a kid so I'm just not intimidated. Just let her enjoy watching you do aikido, let her own curiosity build and maybe she'll try it in her own time. But if the whole martial art concept turns her off, there really isn't a point trying to get her to join.

Anne Marie

Well, thanks for understanding. I've been wanting to discuss this with our female partners in Aikido and have not had the guts to imply :confused that they're not feminine. I'm hoping to find a way of presenting the art that doesn't emphasize the martial (its there anyway , what I need is bait)

I can understand the fear of bruises, except its not a fear I happen to have, and I'm female. (I also like other somewhat risky sports, like downhill skiing). Have any of you women aikidoists had the experience of having a date or newish boyfriend become alarmed if they see that you have a bruise or injury, and repeatedly suggest that you quit if you get another or more severe injury? Just happened to me. Or having men not in the martial arts react somewhat uncomfortably when you tell them you do aikido? Or express doubt that women could ever be effective as martial artists? Happens occasionally to me. Not that I really worry about it, of course. Far as I'm concerned, that's their problem, although I can understand why someone who cares would worry about you getting injured.

I am however, QUITE sensitive to yonkyo, as I have skinny arms and people can press right to the bone on me pretty easily (and yes,I get bruises). I thought it was people with fleshy two-by-four wrists that don't notice yonkyo - well, at least when I try it on them...

Sometimes what attracts us and we are so excited to share is not what appeals to our loved ones...I will assume your wife has actually seen some classes, if not, that may be all it takes. If she still does not like it, you might gently ask what specifically she does not like (in a non-argumentative, non-judgmental, good listener kind of way). It may be as easy as assuring her that you find her so incredibly feminine that even without makeup and jewelry she will be a beauty on the mat.

Originally posted by ca If she still does not like it, you might gently ask what specifically she does not like (in a non-argumentative, non-judgmental, good listener kind of way). It may be as easy as assuring her that you find her so incredibly feminine that even without makeup and jewelry she will be a beauty on the mat.

I noticed that this never works.

If a person is not interested, nothing you will say can make them take up Aikido.
Nothing.

My success rate is 0%, with the exception of a friend who actually started for a couple of classes but then college stuff took over etc blah blah blah.

The truth is, if the person was not DRIVEN to it to start with, they will always find excuses and let other circumstances and tasks take priority over Aikido.

Your are right, talking won't 'convince' someone to try, but sometimes it is just a misconception of what Aikido is about. I think especially for women, and perhaps even more so for wives/girlfriends of male Aikidoka...why?

I think a lot of guys get started for a variety of 'macho' (no offense meant) reasons, and come home singing praises of terrifying atemi, bone rattling breakfalls, pounding their uke...just watch me on the street, etc etc. Not the stuff that often appeals to women. And when you start to show your war wounds, they cannot imagine how this is fun.

I had no interest in martial arts, and in fact saw no point in them until I was introduced to Aikido...and the guy who sold me on it obviously used a different approach with me than the other 40 new students, all great big Army guys, who showed up for our first class. As we stood around talking, me wondering why these 240 pound monsters were wanting to do Aikido, they started talking about Steven Segal. 'Oh, no" I assured them, 'I've seen his movies, that CAN'T be Aikido', 'see, Aikido is this peaceful, gentle art...'

Originally posted by ca As we stood around talking, me wondering why these 240 pound monsters were wanting to do Aikido, they started talking about Steven Segal. 'Oh, no" I assured them, 'I've seen his movies, that CAN'T be Aikido', 'see, Aikido is this peaceful, gentle art...'

"All I'm trying to say is that when you are in the street, the reality is that you have to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. And if you think that you can go out into the street and have somebody come up to hit you from behind with a blackjack on your skull or come up and try to cut your throat, if you think that a philosophical view of peace and love is going to help, then you better wake up, because it's not.My answer is also, that the world can be a very ruthless, dirty, violent place, and if you cannot bring yourself to the level to be ready for that to the extent with which you are able, then you are living in a dream land. Become a writer and just stay in your house and read fiction all day." - Steven Seagal.

I think that he did his best to show real-life Aikido in his films (except "Exit Wounds").

It's not "violent Aikido", it's simply "Aikido applied".

You can drag a cow to a lake, but you can't make it drink

Just an odd random saying (paraphrased) I thought I might share with you guys...

Luckly most of the people that I have woked with don't mind working with a woman. But there is one woman who has complained that I am to small and she is afraid she is going to hurt me. It was than suggested to her that she take a youth or mixed class.
The same woman has never let me finish a technique. She stops me every time I move. Or almost move. Saying No where is your center, No you left this behind, or just no start again. Last week we were working on Shomenuchi iriminage ura waza. I did end up pinning her. The whole time she was saying no. Than that was wrong. I noticed how wrinkled her collar was and said that I was sorry. I guess I just had to much foward motion to stop. I felt ashamed. Did I do the technique or did I just pull her down? A few weeks ago I was told (while working with her) when working with higher rank and someone bigger it was okay to be more powerful. After two days of frustration I figured out what I should have done. Relax, stay focused and be ready for the next attack. Any other suggestions of how to deal with her would be great.
Being small also makes shihonage easier if the uke is a huge guy.

I think irimi nage is O Sensei's way of making sure the smaller nages don't get too sure of themselves because of shihonage

Again, this is the reason I prefer partners to be quiet and train. Unrequested help/advice is generally unwanted/ unnecessary help/advice. Unfortunately, no matter how often you tell one of those types, they are too in love with the sound of their own voice to care about what you need or want. My first sensei would tell us that if you wanted your partner to get how to do the technique, you should do it clearly and correctly when you were nage, and be quiet when you were uke. Good luck with her!

Originally posted by ca Unrequested help/advice is generally unwanted/ unnecessary help/advice.

Perhaps, though I hardly ever request help from my partner, but if a sempai (or at least someone that knows what s/he is talking about) offers a little help, I am very open to receiving it, and often welcome it.

Originally posted by ca Unfortunately, no matter how often you tell one of those types, they are too in love with the sound of their own voice to care about what you need or want.

These are the ones that I do not welcome the advice of. Those that like simply to point out how wrong you are and how right they are, who couldn't care less if you learn or not. But if someone is really sincerely trying to help, they would most likely stop giving advice if they knew you didn't want it.

Originally posted by ca My first sensei would tell us that if you wanted your partner to get how to do the technique, you should do it clearly and correctly when you were nage, and be quiet when you were uke.

The problem with this sometimes, though, is that some people when they are uke are focusing completely on their falling. I know that when I am uke, especially for fast throws, I don't often pay attention to everything that nage is doing. I, myself, can't really learn a throw when I am uke; others may be able to. I like someone to sometimes verbally correct me. But that's just me.

Arianah

I've been living in Asia for the last 15 years and I've practice with a number of amazingly talanted female aikidoka. They all had similar traits:

1. They loved practicing aikido.
2. They practiced with a lot of enthusiasm.
3. They were optimistic people.
4. They challenged their fears.
5. They weren't bent on being self concious.
6. They were tenacious and tireless in their practice.
7. They maintained their femininity but were not weak.

Just my tuppence ha' penny worth... i wonder if the men that discroimate against women would do so if i was black rather female??

Hello! I find this thread particularly interesting, due to my own very limited knowledge of Aikido.
Most of my training in the fighting arts comes from the Army, and in my experience, size, speed and strength are critical in either avoiding or winning a fight. When I started Aikido a bit over a month ago, the member who worked with me most was (and still is) Jill, our senior student: a 1st-Kyu of middle years and all of 120 pounds soaking wet. It took me all of 5 seconds to realize how wrong I was about strength, size and speed as I wound up staring at the ceiling time and again. We have a few students at the Dojo; she is the only woman as of this writing, she is also possibly the most highly thought of person at the Dojo - at least, I think so.
Of all the Martial Arts, it seems to me that Aikido is perfect for women in today's day and age - a 'fighting' skill based on relaxation, calmness and efficiency. So much of it seems perfectly adapted to 'domestic' situations and other areas in which a woman may find herself in trouble.
Due to the low number of students at our Dojo, I've offered my skills as a recruiter in order to help bring in students. The hook I'm planning on using is the 100% demographic of Aikido - in other words, that anyone, regardless of age or sex can do it.
Therefore, I personally think that women should be encouraged to join Aikido - not only for the exercize, but for the factors of defence, safety and confidence it can provide. Not just women actively looking for a martial art - any woman at all. (I yap on incessantly about Aikido now; trying to recruit just about everyone I meet. hee hee!) A 50-year-old librarian isn't going to turn in to Stephen Segal, she WILL NOT become any less attractive (quite the opposite; most probably, moreso.) but she will gain benefits too numerous to mention.
I hope this is not just rambling, that it can actually help this thread.
See you!

I am not female and we have only a few female students at the Dojo. Recently, at the Aiki Expo, I paired off with a young lady who was obviously well versed in karate. Her punch was powerful and forced me to execute getting off the line most efficiency. I returned the favor and the respect. The few women I have trained with have all been very good because they had to depend on their technique instead of their size and strength. In that respect, they taught me.

Until again,

Lynn