Aikido sparing

Sparring is a form of competition, it has a referee of some sort and a set of rules and inside of those rules and according to them a "winner" is announced. It's a game, no matter how violent, nothing to do with real martial arts that can be non violent, yet pretty deadly. You can't play with that.

I don't think that is an entirely correct definition of sparring.

Sparring is certainly broad enough to include "practice" without referees or winners. It still requires "rules of engagement" to avoid a physical injury. Sparring regularly deals severe injuries to ego and pride. It is a great way to "experiment" and see what works without the other guy knowing what is coming. It can be as simple as "resist" this technique please. The true winner in sparring is knowledge.

Sparring does include competitive fighting with rules (again to prevent serious injury). But that is not the only form of sparring. Once it becomes sportfighting, the training goals change and can lead to ingrained habits that are not necessarily good martial arts. Sportfighting tries to make things "fair" while an applied use of martial arts is unlikely to resemble a competitive match in any way. Sportfighting is highly dangerous because folks put winning ahead of their personal safety and so push themselves to the edge of their capabilities - which often ends with a serious injury.

If your martial training ends in serious injuries - I think you missed the point of self-defense...

So "spar" away but I would avoid the "sportfighting" unless you really lack for a purpose in life and are comfortable with a high chance of debilitating injury.

Slighty off topic, regarding samurai and sports:

https://books.google.es/books?id=lbO...page&q&f=false

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Slighty off topic, regarding samurai and sports: https://books.google.es/books?id=lbO...page&q&f=false

Not at all - wish I could read more of that.

There was regular sparing within different sword and jujutsu schools (populated by samurai I guess) and also between schools that pre-date the Meiji restoration. The debate between kata only and more dynamic interactions (i.e.. sparing) goes way back. I always liked the passages in Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword which describes this.

Peter Rehse wrote: I was referring to different definitions of randori. What Judo/Shodokan aikido call randori is different than what is invariably called randori under the Aikikai umbrella. And yes most of us know all about the variation under that umbrella.

Technically speaking, out of all the "official" styles, only Shodokan has randori. Every other style has Jiyu waza or something resembling it.

The point I was trying to make is that sparring is a very broad term and can be geared to different levels of intensity both with respect to pressure and a dynamic, chaotic environment. Some form of sparing is absolutely necessary to bring ones aikido to any number of stated goals whether that be the 'spontaneous generation of technique', developing the elusive aiki, or (with respect to the previous post) becoming a warrior. I know I should leave the last one alone but ...

Off course but most people don't accept that fact, as we can see. I would understand that if they actually had experience, be it sparring, fighting or military training, and so they have developed a different attitude towards the idea of teaching in that manner but it's usually people who are infatuated by some sort of philosophical "budo code of training", which of course mostly represents their imaginary scenario of training and not actual martial arts application. I find that disturbing on some level.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Slighty off topic, regarding samurai and sports: https://books.google.es/books?id=lbO...page&q&f=false

Good book, thanks for posting. The part about sumo's origin is pretty interesting.

What the US special forces or Army does has nothing to do with the traditional warrior, they are soldiers, not warriors and there is a great difference whether you find it on the dictionary or not. Soldiers and cops rely mostly on their firearms, not traditional weapons or traditional hand to hand combat.
Last time I saw a documentary on the people who protect your...nation they were a group of fanatics in Afghanistan chasing people with tanks while singing "the roof is on fire, we don't need no water let the motherfucker burn. Burn motherfucker, burn!"
Where is the honour and the mentality of the warrior in that? I am talking about traditional martial arts here and you mention soldiers? You don't have a clue, do you?

Maybe some day the time machine becomes a real thing. Sending some people to late Heian or Muromachi era for them to lecture the natives about warriorness will be fun.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Technically speaking, out of all the "official" styles, only Shodokan has randori. Every other style has Jiyu waza or something resembling it.

The definition of randori depends on whether it is related to in a specific martial art.

Markus Rohde wrote: The definition of randori depends on whether it is related to in a specific martial art.

That is true - the term is as loose as well sparing. Randori can be translated as chaos taking with how that is achieved being left open to whatever group - I can't get too worked up about the variation in meaning. My premise is that randori and sparing are equivalent very-broad, terms and (beating a dead horse) essential for aikido development no matter what the specific form a group decides to adapt.

I think we all remember the first time we were tossed into a chaotic non-kata environment. If not panic there was at least a feeling of consternation. Those butterflies need to be controlled and that can only be done through experience.

Yannis Mousoulis wrote: What the US special forces or Army does has nothing to do with the traditional warrior, they are soldiers, not warriors and there is a great difference whether you find it on the dictionary or not. Soldiers and cops rely mostly on their firearms, not traditional weapons or traditional hand to hand combat.

Take that back far enough then you can compare the cave warrior wielding a club with a samurai wielding a a sword, spear or bow and make the very same argument. I don't think the weapons or tactics used defines who and who aren't warriors. Just wondering, has your view on modern warriors been shaped by time spent US Delta Force or Seal teams either in training or on actual missions?

Ron

Ron Ragusa wrote: Take that back far enough then you can compare the cave warrior wielding a club with a samurai wielding a a sword, spear or bow and make the very same argument. I don't think the weapons or tactics used defines who and who aren't warriors. Just wondering, has your view on modern warriors been shaped by time spent US Delta Force or Seal teams either in training or on actual missions?s Ron

I'm pretty sure his views on this are based on television, movies and video games. Because they certainly are not based on any facts or historical knowledge of the samurai or Japanese koryu martial arts.

Markus Rohde wrote: The definition of randori depends on whether it is related to in a specific martial art.

Yes, but the type of randori we are talking about can be found only in Shodokan Aikido. You don't have randori in other styles of Aikido. There are dojo's that do a somewhat higher intensity level of Jiyu waza like the ones done in Tenshin dojo and call it randori but in general the idea of randori can be found only in Kenji Tomiki's approach to Aikido.

Peter Rehse wrote: Those butterflies need to be controlled and that can only be done through experience.

Well this is indeed true for about 95% of us.

A general question for all participants of this thread, have you ever participated in any form of sparing outside of your dojo and what are your impressions?

Igor Vojnović wrote: A general question for all participants of this thread, have you ever participated in any form of sparing outside of your dojo and what are your impressions?

Limited - and usually when I did I tended to do what they did rather than force a square peg into a round hole.

The closest thing to an exception was entering a judo dojo where I used some aikido modified technique (shomen-ate/O-soto gari) to great effect and a killer ushiro-ate as a counter. I did well enough in the Himeji city wide grading (had to stay on the mat for three bouts) to take shodan after 5 months of practice. I really believe that my aikido training helped speed up the process but I did progress because I did judo when it was called for.

Peter Rehse wrote: Limited - and usually when I did I tended to do what they did rather than force a square peg into a round hole. The closest thing to an exception was entering a judo dojo where I used some aikido modified technique (shomen-ate/O-soto gari) to great effect and a killer ushiro-ate as a counter. I did well enough in the Himeji city wide grading (had to stay on the mat for three bouts) to take shodan after 5 months of practice. I really believe that my aikido training helped speed up the process but I did progress because I did judo when it was called for.

The balance breaking in Osoto gari is similar, if not identical in some variations, to those in Techni nage or Shomen ate. As for Ushiro ate, i'am not surprised that it was a killer counter, every time you don't execute a technique in Judo or simply don't position yourself correctly your back is open for a counter. In any case you made quite excellent results if you made it to Shodan so i wouldn't call your experience limited.

Tim Mailloux wrote: I'm pretty sure his views on this are based on television, movies and video games. Because they certainly are not based on any facts or historical knowledge of the samurai or Japanese koryu martial arts.

Wow and now you are psychic or something because you seem to be able to come to a lot of conclusions without knowing me.
Your opinion about me is based on speculation and assumptions but the fact of the matter is that you don't know me or what I am capable or incapable of doing, so please do yourself a favour. Stop looking like an idiot by talking about people and things you don't know every time someone disagrees with your opinion. Trying to be sarcastic by claiming my experience comes through movies or whatever just because you are not training the same way I do is just plain bullshit and you know it.
What I am doing in Martial Arts has been tested and proven effective many times but that is none of your business and I am not the topic of this thread.
I am stating my opinion on the forum as every one is entitled to do. If you don't like it, fine but to think that you know where my experience comes from... Well you are way outta line and your assumptions about me are so far from the truth that are making your claims ridiculous...

Yannis Mousoulis wrote: Wow and now you are psychic or something because you seem to be able to come to a lot of conclusions without knowing me.

Reading your posts suffice, there's no need to know you personally to conclude your views on aikido, martial arts, budo, etc. are founded in 'pop culture'.

Igor Vojnović wrote: A general question for all participants of this thread, have you ever participated in any form of sparing outside of your dojo and what are your impressions?

If you mean using aikido techniques while sparring under, let's say, judo, mma, kickboxing or bjj rulesets, then yes. Sometimes the situation allows them.

However, IMO, the principles are more useful than the techniques themselves.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: If you mean using aikido techniques while sparring under, let's say, judo, mma, kickboxing or bjj rulesets, then yes. Sometimes the situation allows them. However, IMO, the principles are more useful than the techniques themselves.

And now the discussion gets more interesting.

I come from the school of thought that aikido is not a collection of techniques and that the practice of techniques (through kata) are meant to reinforce and learn those principles. The problem with kata, being what it is, is that you can't really test an understanding of those principles, or their application, for the simple reason that the moves are too well defined. Oh yes he moves correctly - but does he truly understand?

Demitrio you mentioned how O-soto gari and Shomen-ate have very similar kuzushi and generally I agree. In fact I would be very hard pressed to find a technique in aikido's closet that I can not find a variation of somewhere else. It's even easier comparing judo and aikido - but as you know they will look different due to the engagement distance. I've always liked the Tomiki quote (paraphrase alert) Aikido is what you do when you close the distance - judo is what you do when you get there.

I was particularly proud of my shomen-ate/O-soto gari hybrid not because of the initial kuzushi but the resultant spinal manipulation caused be the rise and fall of the hips and the downward force of the forearm on the chest. So here I was getting all theoretical, I tried it out with a training partner a few times (sparing) and then in shiai - and it worked. So - and I know you did not mean it that way - but no one is taking that little moment away from me. ;D

Peter Rehse wrote: Demitrio you mentioned how O-soto gari and Shomen-ate have very similar kuzushi

That was Igor, not me.

Anyway, I think we both agree.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: That was Igor, not me. Anyway, I think we both agree.

Whoops so it was - sorry.

For me, "sparring" is a personal evaluation of my ability. It's that question in the back of your head that says, "did I do that?" or, "would that have worked?" Sometimes you know positively; sometimes you don't. Sparring can help you get to a level that gives you that answer. Think that throw works? Give it a try on someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Think you can get away from that sword cut? Give it a try with a shinai. Think leaving your face where it is works during waza? Let a striking girl have a go at you. It either works or it don't.

I think if you are not asking yourself these questions and finding the answers, you are not helping to better understand your skill. You don't need to get crazy and you don't need to get killed. You do need to be honest with yourself...

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: If you mean using aikido techniques while sparring under, let's say, judo, mma, kickboxing or bjj rulesets, then yes. Sometimes the situation allows them.

Well yes, and any of the variations possible:

unarmed with rules (only punching/kicking or both, only grabbing(grappling)/throwing or both, all four but no attacking the eyes or crotch),
without rules (punch, kick, grab(grapple), throw without regard to intensity or target),
armed (wooden/plastic/metal (blunt-edge) training knife, wooden/metal rod with sponge coating on hitting end, staff or sword with rubber coating) all of this with regular weapons,
all of the mentioned with or without protection gear (helmet, gloves, chest and rib guard, shin pads, knee pads, elbow pads, instep pads) and with specific purpose(testing timing, balance, movement, positioning, psychological reactions), even scenario training if somebody has done some of those.

However, IMO, the principles are more useful than the techniques themselves.

Well if there where no principles then the techniques wouldn't function the way they do. Off course if people don't stick with the principles then some techniques are "useless" for the purpose they where intended.

Peter Rehse wrote: And now the discussion gets more interesting.

Yaaay.

I come from the school of thought that aikido is not a collection of techniques and that the practice of techniques (through kata) are meant to reinforce and learn those principles.

Exactly.

The problem with kata, being what it is, is that you can't really test an understanding of those principles, or their application, for the simple reason that the moves are too well defined. Oh yes he moves correctly - but does he truly understand?

I would generally agree 100% on this but in reality there are those few people who are, let's say, more talented then the rest of us and understand certain principles more naturally. For instance a kid from my club, i think he is about 20-21 now, so when he was about 17-18, got jumped by a group of thugs, 4 or 5 them, going home from a store, it was the night before Christmas. One of the thugs came forward and pulled out a knife on him and the kid reacted instantaneously with uraken, kote gashi, the uraken is basically a parry attack on the hand that holds the knife so it would be easier to enter and grab the forearm and apply the rest of the technique, there are a couple of more atemies possible but that's not relevant for now. He managed to even take hold of the knife, and to get away from the assailants. Again this is just one situation that, thankfully, ended good for our kid but again seeing as that i trained with him, uke-nage basic training and kakari geiko, you could still see the difference in his way of understanding the basic principles. That's why, in my opinion, sparring is a must for the rest of the Aikidokas, including me.