Equitable?

Hi Ian.

Sorry for the confusion. Because the premise was that a high level male and a high level female would be fighting, I only intended to discount the *differential* between male and females in terms of size and strength as being less of a factor with regard to high level aikido principle application. I didn't mean to imply that having any sort of strength at all was optional. No one would be able to consistently get to the right place, at the right time, and do the right thing without strength, fitness, etc. or that of a typical couch potato. I think the amount of strength, fitness, etc. that a female is capable of compared to what a male is capable of is more than adequate for them to take advantage of/exploit that male's committed attacks (real or otherwise) even if he is just as highly trained and regardless of the terrain or what have you.

I hope that clears up the viewpoint I was trying to put forth.

Rob

You and a few others would rather talk about women's issues than nuts and bolts martial arts, as is obvious by your posts.

Newsflash...this just in...YOU ARE IN THE EQUITABLE THREAD. If you don't like the topic of the thread, and want to post about other topics, do them in ANOTHER thread.

It's all BS that has nothing to do with martial arts.

No one, but you, seems to think you are in charge of what's BS and what is not..

Rob Liberti wrote: Newsflash...this just in...YOU ARE IN THE EQUITABLE THREAD. If you don't like the topic of the thread, and want to post about other topics, do them in ANOTHER thread. No one, but you, seems to think you are in charge of what's BS and what is not..

Please, Rob... this is getting tiresome. I used to think you were deliberately misreading things, but I've come to realize that you just misread, all the while thinking you're having brilliant insights.

On AikiWeb as a whole, which is what I was talking about obviously (except to you, of course), you can envision the forum as sort of a virtual dojo. There are a FEW serious threads among the mostly light-weight threads (bearing in mind that there are always some serious posts within the "lightweight" threads). But on the whole, it's pretty easy to spot the serious martial artists who contribute ("workout for real") in the virtual dojo. You can also spot the lightweights, the genuinely curious newbies and which of them are serious, the social types, etc, etc.. If you go back in the archives and look at the "serious" threads, the nuts-and-bolts threads, (i.e., the people who do some serious working out in the virtual dojo), see how many of the few women complaining about "equality" and "women's representation" are there. Want to make a few bets? So what I'm saying is that I have respect for people in the dojo who earn the respect... and that's the serious people. Let's see some of the "Equality" people working out seriously instead of standing in the corner complaining that their names aren't listed as high on the rank board in numbers suitable to their "gender".

And Rob.... stop posting to me personally... post to the issue and debate the points. You've obviously got a grudge that's probably and obviously related to the personality stuff your wife is doing (notice you never comment on the nastinesses in her posts?), so it looks a little absurd for your negative personal posts to keep coming to me. Complain about the substance or the issues, but don't get the idea that the cause-and-effect hasn't occurred to a lot of people already. I.e., get real.

Mike Sigman

Why? Are you or other males like you the experts? This is exactly what I am talking about. What you want and need is not what I want and need. It does not make you right and me wrong.

Mike, your experiences are just that yours. Mine are mine. This does not make my Aikido any less valuable or valid than yours.

Your unwillingness to look at anyones opinion other than your own in really scary.

I really think you have an agenda other than discussion. I think you are promoting yourself and your seminars. You don't care which way you get attention. You will take it either way. Your ideas around ki and kyoku are things anyone can experience yet you imply that you know secret things and have special power. And your ideas about women are really archaic.

Bless you on your path. You could be right......

Mary

Mary Eastland wrote: Why? Are you or other males like you the experts? This is exactly what I am talking about. What you want and need is not what I want and need. It does not make you right and me wrong. [snip another immediate turn to discussing Mike personally]

Mary, why don't I find meaningful and informative posts from you in some of the nuts-and-bolts threads on Aikido? Why not spend a little time showing us your Aikido?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Thank you for you fascinating insight. Unfortunately for you, I see this place as an *online forum* and not a *virtual dojo* regardless of how you like to think about it. There is no rank in a forum, regardless of how you would like things to be. Also, in a forum, we have isolated threads here for people to focus on talking about what they want, regardless of your approval. If you want to write more about your ideas about the nuts and bolts of aikido, by all means please start a new thread, or add something to an old one.

Now, if you see this place as a virtual dojo, then wouldn't it be inconsistent with your ideas about just falling for someone if we were to all read your posts and pretend to agree with you as opposed to responding in kind?

As an aside, there have been times on aikiweb when I corrected something Sunny has written - I just have to disagree with it first.

And Mike... of course you can continue to try to tell me what to do, but I still don't think that you're in charge.

Rob

Mike Sigman wrote: Mary, why don't I find meaningful and informative posts from you in some of the nuts-and-bolts threads on Aikido? Why not spend a little time showing us your Aikido? Regards, Mike Sigman

I can't speak for you but I think the reason you can't find meaningful and informative posts from me is because you dismiss my posts as fluffly or insignificant. I can't be sure because I am not you.

I am not very wordy. I have a hard time reading posts that are really long so I try to keep mine short and to the point.

I also feel that writing about Aikido is very different than feeling it.

Mary

Mary Eastland wrote: I can't speak for you but I think the reason you can't find meaningful and informative posts from me is because you dismiss my posts as fluffly or insignificant.

Mary, you're being passive-aggressive again. If you write significant and interesting posts, trust me I won't dismiss them. I value all good information and gender is meaningless to a data-hound like me. If you write fluffy or insignificant posts, I expect you to be your own critic if you're anything of a person, and improve yourself... I don't expect you to blame me for not being perceptive if the problem is really your own performance. I'm very critical of my own abilities, always trying to improve and always looking for the real-world results. I like to hang with people that do the same, gender notwithstanding.

FWIW

Mike

I didn't read this entire forum but just to get back to the original subject...

The main reason I see for having women role models out there is that it makes a big difference in encouraging other women to join up. It makes it seems like a safe environment that will accept women and treat them "equitably." After joining it doesn't really make a difference whether your role models are male or female as long as the training is good, although since smaller, weaker people, including women, often have to rely more on technical insights than brute force, they're great to practice with. (Although I know plently of brutally forceful little people.)

Organizational discrimination is another thing since it limits opportunities for everyone. We'll never know whether the lack of female senseis at the Expo was due to discrimination or mere clumsy oversight or lack of availability, but we should at least acknowledge that aikido organizations, like any organizations, are not immune to gender politics, unless they're like super unbelievably pure.

Grace Rollins wrote: I didn't read this entire forum but just to get back to the original subject... The main reason I see for having women role models out there is that it makes a big difference in encouraging other women to join up. It makes it seems like a safe environment that will accept women and treat them "equitably." After joining it doesn't really make a difference whether your role models are male or female as long as the training is good, although since smaller, weaker people, including women, often have to rely more on technical insights than brute force, they're great to practice with. (Although I know plently of brutally forceful little people.) Organizational discrimination is another thing since it limits opportunities for everyone. We'll never know whether the lack of female senseis at the Expo was due to discrimination or mere clumsy oversight or lack of availability, but we should at least acknowledge that aikido organizations, like any organizations, are not immune to gender politics, unless they're like super unbelievably pure.

Grace,

I think you really hit the nail on the head and that is pretty much how I feel about the whole "gender issue". Once in the dojo, my gender rarely comes up as it relates to my training on the mat. It did help when I first started aikido to just see another woman on the mat. But all in all, gender is just one small factor that is part of the whole of my training, nor the major factor or the whole factor of my training.

Sunny Liberti wrote: Just curious, are you tempted to say similar things to *anyone* else on a daily basis?I never thought otherwise. I do strongly question his motives for involving himself in this thread, though. He *left* Aikido disgusted with it. And yet here he is. If I had trained in a Chinese MA for example, and left in a huff over the male chauvanist jerks there, I can't imagine bothering to hunt down their forums and spending a second of my time harassing them for their training choices. Guess I'm just being "gratuitous" though... I'm quite comfortable with Jun's judgement on how he wants to run his board...

Hi Sunny,
I am sorry if my post seemed presumptuous or otherwise inappropriate.
Yours,
Brion Toss

Mike Sigman wrote: That's a completely disingenuous statement, since you quoted the one I just mentioned, isn't it? You erred, then, but you're dodging the admission. You "get the impression" about what I feel? Have you ever heard of the use of logic in debate? I wasn't "unfairly treated", I was remarking about something that many people have seen in many Aikido dojo's and dojo's in other martial arts... the study of martial arts is disrupted in many dojo's by the insistent injection of extraneous matters by females and some males who are not really there for the focused study of martial arts. In ANY non-serious dojo, whether females are there are not, the quality of study deteriorates. Introducing off-topic worries into martial arts is analogous to many of the conversations on M.A. lists.... the ones who aren't really serious will do their best to discuss any issue but the one which they aren't very knowledgeable in, i.e., martial arts. It's how people are. You and a few others would rather talk about women's issues than nuts and bolts martial arts, as is obvious by your posts. Don't "give" me anything, Ruth, particularly in regard to your perceptions about equality, the views I should have to pass your criteria, etc. I treat you just like a man... you're insulting and I don't give you a pass "because you're a woman", as you'd like. Go back and read the posts by Sunny Liberti, Mary, and others... if they were men, someone in real martial arts would have taken them outside and knocked them flat. But you're not calling for equal treatment, really, are you? You want "special consideration" for women and their "needs", not "equal treatment". Go back and read the posts in this thread by a select few of the women.... it's a call for "special treatment allowing for women's needs" and it falsely couched in "we want to be treated equally" terms. There are calls for "understanding", but really they are calls for "you better conform to our view of women and their needs". There is an insistence that "these worries about women and their needs is a valid part of "martial arts". It's all BS that has nothing to do with martial arts and all about "look at me, look at me, look at me, I'm a woman". As a valid martial arts topic, it doesn't fly, just as a number of the martial artists have pointed out already. So don't arrogantly "give me the benefit of the doubt"...instead, "show" me that you know something about martial arts and that you're not just one of the parasites that does not-too-hard and not-too-effective "martial arts" as part of their social life. That's when you'll get my respect, not when you try to browbeat me into the mold of how you "get the impression" I should "feel". You're making the exact case of why I think a lot of women and also a lot of men don't belong in martial arts dojos... they're not really there for the martial arts so they lower the practice standards. How's that for equality???.... *anyone* not seriously focused on martial arts should quit pretending that they're interested in effective martial arts, male or female. Mike Sigman

Wow. Where to start? In the interests of keeping on topic, I will treat this as an opportunity to compare and contrast.
Mike said, "You "get the impression" about what I feel? Have you ever heard of the use of logic in debate?"
From this I hope it is fair to conclude that Mike finds "getting an impression" is incompatible with logic in debate. I believe that telling people what impression one is getting can be of great value in a debate, and does not preclude logical discourse. Far from it; relaying those impressions gives the other person the opportunity to correct, amplify, or agree about the accuracy of those impressions. Stating impressions can be valuable in preventing actions based on inaccurate perceptions. In the context of this thread, my first impression, seeing the disparity of gender in the teaching staff at Aiki Expo was that it was a blatantly unbalanced setup. Subsequent posts led me to modify that impression.
Mike wrote, "...the study of martial arts is disrupted in many dojo's by the insistent injection of extraneous matters by females and some males who are not really there for the focused study of martial arts." No doubt this is true in many dojos, but what some consider "extraneous matters", others might consider essential. O-Sensei, from what I've heard, (in writing and from people who knew him), put some importance on the idea of having a good time while practicing Aikido. In a strictly martial sense, this might seem extraneous. But even if we consider Aikido purely as a martial art, it could be argued that being relaxed and happy will lead to more productive classes for everyone. In the current thread, I believe that unfair treatment of anyone detracts from the quality, the actual, technical, as-implemented-in-a-parking-lot quality of any martial art. Now that of course depends on how one defines "quality"; in my view, there's not much point in being competent but unhappy, especially if there's a chance that I can be both competent and happy. Mike might find happiness in different places than I. If so, we will practice in different dojos. By my lights, I would be guilty of an unfocused study of martial arts if I left out some of the things that Mike considers "extraneous."
Mike writes, "...the ones who aren't really serious will do their best to discuss any issue but the one which they aren't very knowledgeable in, i.e., martial arts. It's how people are."
People, serious or not, will tend to write about the things they are knowledgeable in, or interested in, or intrigued by, or curious about. Dilettantes are no different in this regard. Einstein was a professional physicist, and a dilettante sailor. Just because he kept hitting himself in the head with the boom, and didn't formulate a theory about luff tension, doesn't disqualify him on Relativity.
Mike writes, "...Go back and read the posts by Sunny Liberti, Mary, and others... if they were men, someone in real martial arts would have taken them outside and knocked them flat. But you're not calling for equal treatment, really, are you? You want "special consideration" for women and their "needs", not "equal treatment"."
I went back and read those posts. I compared them with some of my own. I anticipate being taken outside and knocked flat. I doubt that I will be able to distinguish the person administering the knocking, who will be "someone in real martial arts", from a vicious thug. So I guess I am calling for equal treatment, i.e. the right to type fairly mild-seeming opinions -- or even antagonizing ones -- on the Internet without fearing that someone might threaten me with physical violence on me because of it.
Nowhere in those posts did I find any call for "special treatment." I may be projecting, but in my own life I have sometimes thought that women were asking for special treatment, when they were really asking that I relinquish an artificial advantage. Yes, some people of both genders, and all races and persuasions will ask for, and sometimes receive, special treatment per se, but I do not think that is what is going on here.
Mike goes on to complain that some women are, "... try[ing] to browbeat me into the mold of how you "get the impression" I should "feel"."
Nicely mixed metaphor there. But I believe "browbeating" (to depress or bear down with haughty, stern looks, or with arrogant speech; to abash or disconcert by impudence or abuse) is not what is going on here, either. More in the nature of principled disagreement in detail, no?
Yours,
Brion Toss

Brion Toss wrote: From this I hope it is fair to conclude that Mike finds "getting an impression" is incompatible with logic in debate. I believe that telling people what impression one is getting can be of great value in a debate, and does not preclude logical discourse.

OK. Using those criteria then... I conclude you are a witling, Brion. Do you now see the fallacy of allowing those sorts of comments into logical debate?

[snip some comments extraneous to martial arts functions] But even if we consider Aikido purely as a martial art, it could be argued that being relaxed and happy will lead to more productive classes for everyone. In the current thread, I believe that unfair treatment of anyone detracts from the quality, the actual, technical, as-implemented-in-a-parking-lot quality of any martial art. Now that of course depends on how one defines "quality"; in my view, there's not much point in being competent but unhappy, especially if there's a chance that I can be both competent and happy. Mike might find happiness in different places than I. If so, we will practice in different dojos. By my lights, I would be guilty of an unfocused study of martial arts if I left out some of the things that Mike considers "extraneous."

Sure, Brion... you first of all miss the point of why O-Sensei did not allow his students to walk on his right side, his sword-hand side, if you think martial arts was not his focus. Secondly, you have interpreted "relaxed" from the English sense and don't seem to understand that it just means "not stiff", not "unconcerned with the world around us".

Mike writes, "...the ones who aren't really serious will do their best to discuss any issue but the one which they aren't very knowledgeable in, i.e., martial arts. It's how people are." People, serious or not, will tend to write about the things they are knowledgeable in, or interested in, or intrigued by, or curious about.

Including Hollywood types commenting on medicine, dieting, politics, how to live a full life, etc. "Intrigued" is indeed the operative word, I think. But it's worthy of debate, Brion. Debate, as long as it's civil, brings out points of discussion.

Brion thinking about any violence on earth wrote: I compared them with some of my own. I anticipate being taken outside and knocked flat. I doubt that I will be able to distinguish the person administering the knocking, who will be "someone in real martial arts", from a vicious thug.

In other words, you don't really understand violence and death, Brion, you equate any talk of violence as being far removed from "reality" as you see it in the upper Northwest? It's a talking point to you, isn't it? In other words, wouldn't you say that actual fighting seems thuggish and foreign to you? Think about O-Sensei and his not letting a student get between him and his sword arm... do you think he was disdainful of thugs or was he prepared to deal with them as a reality?

So I guess I am calling for equal treatment, i.e. the right to type fairly mild-seeming opinions -- or even antagonizing ones -- on the Internet without fearing that someone might threaten me with physical violence on me because of it.

I think it's a GOOD thing that you're willing to debate, argue, or even (if it's important enough) FIGHT for a point you believe in, Brion. I'm encouraging you, not trying to stifle your comments. People who call names like "sexist", "racist", "chauvinist", etc., are the people trying to stifle discussion, don't you think? Do you think that stifling discussion is what martial artists do or what someone defensive is trying to do?" Argue your points civilliy, as you seem to do, and fight when you must... but don't argue civilly and then run because ultimately you will lose all.

Nowhere in those posts did I find any call for "special treatment." I may be projecting, but in my own life I have sometimes thought that women were asking for special treatment, when they were really asking that I relinquish an artificial advantage.

Out of curiosity, what "artificial advantage" are you talking about? I hope that a survival necessity such as splitting of responsibilities is not what you're thinking of as the original artifice. If that's true then you are doom to the species, Brion.

Yes, some people of both genders, and all races and persuasions will ask for, and sometimes receive, special treatment per se, but I do not think that is what is going on here. Mike goes on to complain that some women are, "... try[ing] to browbeat me into the mold of how you "get the impression" I should "feel"." Nicely mixed metaphor there. But I believe "browbeating" (to depress or bear down with haughty, stern looks, or with arrogant speech; to abash or disconcert by impudence or abuse) is not what is going on here, either. More in the nature of principled disagreement in detail, no?

No. Attempting to stifle debate by stigmatizing opposing viewpoints is a well-known debate tactic from far antiquity, Brion. Remember that the next time you attempt to argue by name-calling and not addressing the issues, please.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

roflmao!!!!!

Here´s a joke I heard last night, Í thought I´d post it in an attempt to get some lightness back into this thread (I hope it works in American English, too):

Why can´t men make pancakes?

Because they´re useless tossers!

"make pancakes" may be replaced by "do aikido" if you like and the shoe fits

Kind regards,
Sonja (who likes men, by the way)

Mike Sigman wrote: Go back and read the posts by Sunny Liberti, Mary, and others... if they were men, someone in real martial arts would have taken them outside and knocked them flat.

Oh yeah? Which universe are you living in?

And no, I don't enter into playground "logic".

Get a life!

Ruth

Sonja McGough wrote: Here´s a joke I heard last night, Í thought I´d post it in an attempt to get some lightness back into this thread (I hope it works in American English, too): Why can´t men make pancakes? Because they´re useless tossers! "make pancakes" may be replaced by "do aikido" if you like and the shoe fits Kind regards, Sonja (who likes men, by the way)

Nice one Sonja - and so appropriate!

Ruth

Go back and read the posts by Sunny Liberti, Mary, and others... if they were men, someone in real martial arts would have taken them outside and knocked them flat.

Oooo... I'd better not get a gender change operation!! I guess I would have a line of people waiting to beat me up!!! LOL I better just stay an uppity chick with a big mouth. HaHa! This way I'm beating the system and getting away with it!!

The fact that Mike is still standing disproves his theory, though. So I won't lose any sleep.

Sunny Liberti wrote: Oooo... I'd better not get a gender change operation!! I guess I would have a line of people waiting to beat me up!!! LOL I better just stay an uppity chick with a big mouth. HaHa! This way I'm beating the system and getting away with it!!

Good for you!

The fact that Mike is still standing disproves his theory, though. So I won't lose any sleep.

Fortunately for him, the majority of <ahem> real men (TM) can find better ways to express themselves than assaulting people.

And by the by, there are plenty of <ahem> real men (TM) who really rather like uppity chicks with big mouths.

Sean
x

Sunny, are you being "passive-aggressive" and "gratuitous"? Or am I stifling discussion by name-calling? Well, maybe I'm just one of those "nurturists". I occurs to me that de"nile" ain't just a river in Eqypt, and apparently "projection" ain't just a type of throw in aikido....

In a level-playing field such as an on-line forum or say driving where people have disagreements in their belief systems, it must make people who normally get their way through intimidation, bullying, and various levels of manipulation very upset. My thoughts are that a dojo should be such a level-playing field. Is there something we can do to help these people not be so upset or do we just have to kick them out?

I suppose that we could just constantly bring up women's issues in the dojo in hopes of tricking them into leaving or have manditory 'bring your mom to the dojo and forgive her' day.

Rob

Fortunately for him, the majority of <ahem> real men (TM) can find better ways to express themselves than assaulting people.

And he misunderstands their kindness. Sad.

And by the by, there are plenty of <ahem> real men (TM) who really rather like uppity chicks with big mouths.

Thanks, uppity chicks rather like the real men to which you are referring... The ones who have the confidence to value other people.

Rob, it must be that you have no testosterone...

I'm starting to like the "virtual dojo" idea. I didn't see the value in it before. But we never tolerate bullying and hoise those people out... by their own retard.

And he misunderstands their kindness.

Sunny, do you have someone's opinion paper to use as a citation for that?

About the the nuts and bolts of equitability, when someone is toxic to many members of either gender in the dojo, what is the best way to deal with them? (I know that when it is the teacher, you leave.) But what about when it is some new student? Or what about some senior student? What about a visitor? Any ideas?

Rob

Rob Liberti wrote: Sunny, do you have someone's opinion paper to use as a citation for that? About the the nuts and bolts of equitability, when someone is toxic to many members of either gender in the dojo, what is the best way to deal with them? (I know that when it is the teacher, you leave.) But what about when it is some new student? Or what about some senior student? What about a visitor? Any ideas? Rob

We've had our share of toxic students,some not so, some really poisonous. I have yet to ask anyone to leave, I'm too much of a softee in that regard. I should let Mary take care of that kind of stuff she's a lot tougher than I am. The toxic ones always seem to weed themselves out anyway.

Sunny Liberti wrote: Oooo... I'd better not get a gender change operation!! I guess I would have a line of people waiting to beat me up!!! LOL I better just stay an uppity chick with a big mouth. HaHa! This way I'm beating the system and getting away with it!! The fact that Mike is still standing disproves his theory, though. So I won't lose any sleep.

LOL!! Perhaps Mike's instructor is doing the honours right now

What starts with "come here" and ends with "arrrgggghhh"?



Ruth

Rob Liberti wrote: About the the nuts and bolts of equitability, when someone is toxic to many members of either gender in the dojo, what is the best way to deal with them? (I know that when it is the teacher, you leave.) But what about when it is some new student? Or what about some senior student? What about a visitor? Any ideas?

These days I just make the boundaries of behaviour clear to any junior or visiting student who chooses to break them with "We don't do this here because ...", or if senior, "You're hurting me by doing ... can you go slower / easier?". If they continue to cause a problem, I step back when partnering them and wait for the dialogue to begin. Usually my sensei notices and we discuss the situation later. After that, it's down to sensei what happens, but I sure wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of him!

If I were the instructor, I'd probably tell a persistent offender that I expected better behaviour from them, pointing out what and why if necessary. If it was not apparent that the student was making any efforts in this direction next time I saw them, I'd just tell them to get off my mat

If folk won't respect the system, they miss out on the fun of training.

Ruth