To bow or not to bow

Joshua Reyer wrote:
If one cannot make the simple adjustment to Japanese culture of bowing in a secular context of etiquette, how can one expect to really get the "spirit of Aikido"? A spirit born of Confucian, Buddhist, and Shinto beliefs?

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: Maybe it's a "simple adjustment" for you. Surely not for others. Maybe it's a "secular context" for you. Surely not for others. Is it that hard to understand that not everybody lives by your standards? And... what is exactly "the spirit of Aikido"? Did you really "got it"? Obviously not, in my opinion. Maybe yes in yours. This is the kind of intolerance that Jun allows in the forum. Oh, because the wording is low tone. Is this the "spirit of Aikido" too? I call BS.

Alejandro, do you truly find there to be no difference between expressing an opinion about aikido or training or humanity, however distasteful an opinion you or I think it may be, and continually putting down and belittling or attacking individual people in such a way that is stifles the expression of opinion? Because I see a huge difference between the two.

Janet Rosen wrote: Joshua Reyer wrote: If one cannot make the simple adjustment to Japanese culture of bowing in a secular context of etiquette, how can one expect to really get the "spirit of Aikido"? A spirit born of Confucian, Buddhist, and Shinto beliefs? Alejandro, do you truly find there to be no difference between expressing an opinion about aikido or training or humanity, however distasteful an opinion you or I think it may be, and continually putting down and belittling or attacking individual people in such a way that is stifles the expression of opinion? Because I see a huge difference between the two.

Well, he's a little rough, but he makes a valid point. That is, the "simple adjustment" is not so simple for many people of faith. I think that's hard to understand for many people.

Best,

Chris

Alejandro, your opinions reflect a very open and accepting human being and your comments are spot-on.

For those who believe in the "my house, my rules," here are a few quotes from O'Sensei:

"As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

"The art of Peace I practice has room for each of the world's eight million gods, and I cooperate with them all. The God of Peace is very great and enjoins all that is divine and enlightened in every land."

For me the key word is "cooperate," not mandate.

Sorry, just one more quote:

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions."

How can Aikido perfect religions if the "rules" alienate the practitioners and instead of completing the religion, it conflicts with it?

Gregory Makuch wrote: Sorry, just one more quote: "The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions."

So Aikido is what, for instance, Roman Catholicism lacks to be a perfect and complete religion?

I'm paging Torquemada.

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: Maybe it's a "simple adjustment" for you. Surely not for others. Maybe it's a "secular context" for you. Surely not for others. Is it that hard to understand that not everybody lives by your standards?

The problem is, they're not my standards. I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist.

And... what is exactly "the spirit of Aikido"? Did you really "got it"? Obviously not, in my opinion. Maybe yes in yours.

I really have no idea, which is why I used quotations marks. I seriously doubt I "get it". Don't much want to, either.

This is the kind of intolerance that Jun allows in the forum. Oh, because the wording is low tone. Is this the "spirit of Aikido" too? I call BS.

Asking a pointed question is hardly intolerance. Sure, I question whether someone who can't make the cultural leap to bowing in the dojo can understand the more esoteric aspects of aikido, or indeed any martial art. That doesn't mean I give a damn what anyone does in their training.

Christopher Li wrote: Well, he's a little rough, but he makes a valid point. That is, the "simple adjustment" is not so simple for many people of faith. I think that's hard to understand for many people.

I stand by my statement. It is an unequivocal fact that bowing in Japan has no inherent religious meaning. That doesn't mean that it can't have that meaning in certain contexts, only that it is so ubiquitous, it has all the inherent religious meaning of clapping one's hands. Which, incidentally, can also have religious meaning in certain contexts here in Japan, and yet Christian people clap all the time.

So it comes to, either one sees bowing in the dojo as not inherently religious, and thus not a sin. Or despite the large number of Japanese atheists and Christians who bow like madmen throughout their daily lives, even in dojo, one believes that the act of bowing is inherently religious, and thus a sin against God/Allah. For the latter, I have my doubts that they'll come to understand the deeper concepts of aikido in specific and Japanese budo in general. But I don't mind being proven wrong; hence my question. I'd like to know how they could do it. Maybe they don't care; maybe for them all they want from aikido is some technical skill and the platitudes common to pretty much all traditional martial arts. More power to them. Heck, there are plenty of people who do bow, but never explore aikido deeper than that, as Mary suggested earlier. I personally think they are missing out on a lot of interesting stuff. But then, my girlfriend deplores my simple, basic tastes in food, and unwillingness to try new dishes. Different strokes.

Edit: Let it not be thought that I'm singling out Christians as the non-bowers here. The same goes for Muslims clapping, bowing in everyday life, etc.

Matthew Story wrote: Ikeda Sensei of the ASU has bad knees and cannot sit in seiza at all. He opens the class at the kamiza with the standing rei. It seems to me (though I am no expert) that having this student do the standing rei would allow him to keep some aikido tradition without comprimising his beliefs.

I'm surprised that we got to post no 236 in this thread before someone said "standing rei". For someone whose main concern is rei towards shomen/kamiza/kamidana, I think standing rei should be a compromise working for most people.

During class standing bows before and after training with someone might work or be an obstacle, depending on the local dojo behaviour.

Carsten Möllering wrote: Sure: This is just the way I myself practice. And for me it is kind of natural because there are a lot of connections with japan through my teacher who lived there for a while and whose wife is japanese. Also through Christian Tissier and Endo sensei. And in our federation My teacher also is shibu cho of TSKSR in Germany, which is also very japanese.

Congratulations! You do look so Japanese now!

Carsten Möllering wrote: This ist the aikido-world, I live in and which shapes the character of my understanding and feeling of aikido. And so this is the way aikido reveals itself to me. We even don't have german graduations. We are graded directly by the hombu.

Congratulations! That makes you so more genuine!

Carsten Möllering wrote: On the other side there are bad experiences of two german federations which have lost the connection with Japan long time ago. This "german aikido" has lost it's character completely, I think.

And I'm sure that's because they lost connection with Japan. There is no other reason German Aikido has lost it.

Carsten Möllering wrote: I didn't start practice until I had at least a little idea of what I am doing when bowing to living people, rooms, kamidana, etc. . Same with meditating, sitting in seiza. I'm a lutheran pastor and it was important for me not to mix up the practice of shinto with my christian beliefs.

So how is your practice of Shinto then? Maybe I didn't understand correctly; sorry about my poor English.

Carsten Möllering wrote: grin: Yes. But this is what you and me think. For my teacher - who is teacher of christian beliefs at school - it is identic. For the aikidoka who do aikido shinik rengo it is identic. Ueshiba Morihei thought it to be identic. ... It's not that simpel. ;-)

Well, it's not about thinking or believing, but about universal laws.

Carsten Möllering wrote: Bowing to the kamidana is much more then just nodding in front of a picture. (... or calligraphie or flowers or ....) And when you train with people who practice shinto it becomes even more complicated.

Sure it is! And that's why it should interfere with your lutheran faith. If it doesn't interfere, then something's laking somewhere. Anyway, for some faiths that interference is unacceptable. Plain as that. If lutheranism accepts it, good for you! Bravo.

Carsten Möllering wrote: Excuse me? When or how did I say that you are not doing aikido? (This is something I sometimes here myself. When stating that I just practice waza and nothing else ... And at least for this reason I would never judge anyone elses practice.)

Well, I don't mean specifically you, you know.

Carsten Möllering wrote: I don't think I am able (or want) to judge anyone or anyones practice. This is not my job and not my authority. You may have got a teacher. He is (in my eyes) the only one who might judge your aikido. (If you let him do so.)

I certainly let him (them, actually) do so.

Carsten Möllering wrote: This I think is more difficult: I think it was Kisshomaru, who openend up aikido. O Sensei was kind of forced, to show aikido to the public and I think there where "two hearst beating in his one breast". (German proverb I can't translate: He wanted aikido to be for everyone, but at the same time wanted to aikido to be japanese. I think if there only had been Ueshiba Morihei we both wouldn't even know aikido. But that's just my thoughts.)

So if he wanted it to be for everyone, what are we discussing here? Also... do I infere that all Japanese are Shintoist? Conficianist? Buddhist? No.

Joshua Reyer wrote: The problem is, they're not my standards. I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist.

Again, I do not mean you like in Joshua Reyer.

Joshua Reyer wrote: Asking a pointed question is hardly intolerance. Sure, I question whether someone who can't make the cultural leap to bowing in the dojo can understand the more esoteric aspects of aikido, or indeed any martial art. That doesn't mean I give a damn what anyone does in their training.

That cultural leap is impossible for 50% of the world population. And I think your reasoning is not that valid. Do I need to make a cultural leap to Ancient Greece to study algebra (an arab word, wtf). Do I need to make a cultural leap to England to play football? Do you follow me?

Joshua Reyer wrote: I stand by my statement. It is an unequivocal fact that bowing in Japan has no inherent religious meaning. That doesn't mean that it can't have that meaning in certain contexts, only that it is so ubiquitous, it has all the inherent religious meaning of clapping one's hands. Which, incidentally, can also have religious meaning in certain contexts here in Japan, and yet Christian people clap all the time.

But it is an unequivocal fact that bowing in Japan has inherent religious meaning if you are a Christian, a Muslim, a... Flawed again.

Joshua Reyer wrote: So it comes to, either one sees bowing in the dojo as not inherently religious, and thus not a sin. Or despite the large number of Japanese atheists and Christians who bow like madmen throughout their daily lives, even in dojo, one believes that the act of bowing is inherently religious, and thus a sin against God/Allah. For the latter, I have my doubts that they'll come to understand the deeper concepts of aikido in specific and Japanese budo in general.

Well, you have your doubts. I have my doubts. That doesn't mean you or I are right about it. But we're not discussing the deeper concepts of koryu, but Aikido. A gendai budo.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: So Aikido is what, for instance, Roman Catholicism lacks to be a perfect and complete religion? I'm paging Torquemada.

Please note that I'm not trying to start a theological debate over which religion is the perfect or complete religion. I think the idea here is that Aikido is not in conflict with organized religion. It preaches peace, love, cooperation, and harmony in line with organized religious doctrine. One does not worship in Aikido, one practices. Practitioners of Aikido are not asked to adopt new religions beliefs and Aikido should not challenge their existing beliefs. If bowing challenges their beliefs, change that so that the practice of Aikido can continue.

For Roman Catholics, Aikido does not challenge God, Jesus, or any other aspects of Catholic belief. It does not ask you to put any god before God. In fact, it puts into practice that which is taught by the religion: turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, those without sin cast the first stone (non-aggression), etc. In addition it reinforces the idea of a universal god for all man kind. Isn't practicing these principles in everyday life, above and beyond church, how one becomes complete in the eyes of God? Hearing the words are not enough, one must practice them.

That is what I believe is meant by perfects and completes religion as this reinforcement applied universally.

Joshua Reyer wrote: I stand by my statement. It is an unequivocal fact that bowing in Japan has no inherent religious meaning. That doesn't mean that it can't have that meaning in certain contexts, only that it is so ubiquitous, it has all the inherent religious meaning of clapping one's hands. Which, incidentally, can also have religious meaning in certain contexts here in Japan, and yet Christian people clap all the time.

It doesn't for you, but my point was that bowing has, for some people, a religious meaning in any context, and that turning that off is not such a simple matter.

Best,

Chris

Gregory Makuch wrote: Please note that I'm not trying to start a theological debate over which religion is the perfect or complete religion.

Not a kind of debate I find interesting, btw.

However, what irks me is the all-purpose "fortune-cookie" decontextualized Ueshiba quoting aikidoka are prone to.

Regards.

This is an old thread I have glanced at before and found fascinating, however, I haven't studied it enough to give everyone's post the proper study and consideration. But what Chris just said is very important to me because I know a bit about other religions, in fact, someone had called when I was no longer teaching but the listing was still in the book or on the internet. The man was Orthodox Jewish and had some questions. Unfortunately I wasn't in a position to give lessons as an intro before recommending the local dojo, but I sort of knew where he was coming from. Another woman from my dojo in NY and I had been guests in an Orthodox Synagogue and had read some books...

I would have called him back to see how the dojo visit went, but the notepaper got lost among the piles of paper in our home office, which I feel bad about ....

So here's my opinion, I agree with Chris in that some people have very strong beliefs about actions, customs and behaviors and I for one would feel obligated to try to work something out with the person that wouldn't go against his or her beliefs. But I haven't had this situation in my own dojo, which was at a Y years ago.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: However, what irks me is the all-purpose "fortune-cookie" decontextualized Ueshiba quoting aikidoka are prone to.

Digression: this is why I could simply not get with "The Art of Peace". An annotated version, perhaps, but as it is..."decontextualized" is the precise term for it.

To be honest, I have to say that at one point I did teach a form of short Shinto chant that went with the breathing exercise and the furutama and funakogi undo that we had learned at a seminar with Hikitsuchi Sensei. The seminar was at a local dojo in New Haven, after a public demo at one of the gyms at Yale. So I can't say I never attempted to pass on anything Shinto in the YMCA class I taught. But the topic didn't come up as far as I was aware, of anyone having a problem with any of the purification exercises, and the chant that goes with them that Hikitsuchi Sensei taught us. For those who don't know him, he was a Shinto priest who had studied with O Sensei since childhood when O Sensei visited the Wakayama area in south Japan . He just taught us a few things and we were grateful for his generosity. Many non-Japanese went to Japan to study with him from various parts of the US.

Christopher Li wrote: Well, he's a little rough, but he makes a valid point. That is, the "simple adjustment" is not so simple for many people of faith. I think that's hard to understand for many people. Best, Chris

Chris, I agree the point is valid. (I see valid points on both sides of the equation, which to some degree is why my own position is: its up to the dojocho to make the rules that work for his/her own dojo).

My question had to do with appearing to equate what one considers a wrong or bull-headed or silly or even intolerant opinion with an actual attack.

Diana Frese wrote: For those who don't know him [Hikitsuchi SenseI], he was a Shinto priest who had studied with O Sensei since childhood when O Sensei visited the Wakayama area in south Japan .

Hi Diana --

I've had occasion to ask a number of individuals who trained with Hikitsuchi S. in Japan about the question of whether or not he was a Shinto priest. Each of them told me essentially the same thing: while he was a devoted Shinto practitioner, he was not a formally ordained priest.

That said, the whole "formal ordination as a Shinto priest" business in its present form is closer to one century old than two, and Shingu is in Wakayama, a part of the country where traditions of folk-practice seem to run comparatively strong in many respects, so you can make of that what you will.

Best,

FL

Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your adding information, it's very interesting and all the more inspirational.

I guess I thought Hikitsuchi Sensei was a Shinto priest because he gave a ceremony at the Japan Society in honor of the tenth anniversary of O-Sensei's passing and invoked the spirit of O Sensei for the hono embu when he and his group gave the exhibition as part of the ceremony.

I guess it's the sincerity which was the most impressive aspect, it was his devotion to O Sensei which prompted him to make the US tour, whether or not he was an official Shinto priest.
I guess there are official regulations, government registrations etc. for that and maybe to be connected with a particular shrine, but I thought at the time he was connected with one of the shrines.

But the exhibition was years ago and I am very happy to learn something new from your post. The "traditions of folk practice" phrase you mentioned is heart-warming, that regular people are involved, it's not just something formal, although I have respect for formalities too. Especially these days, I feel it is important to learn something more about Japan, especially for those of us who have already been interested in the beliefs and customs.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Not a kind of debate I find interesting, btw. However, what irks me is the all-purpose "fortune-cookie" decontextualized Ueshiba quoting aikidoka are prone to. Regards.

The quotes were simply meant to show that these greater problems, and many others were being considered by O Sensei as he delved deeper into his own spirituality. Those who were fortunate enough to study directly under him recalled many a times he never even taught technique, just walked on the mat and talked philosophically about Aikido. His quotes were often difficult to place in context as he was often referring to humanity in general or life as a whole. So my quotes were not to validate one position as right or wrong, they were to demonstrate the compexity and simplicity which coexist within this discussion. On the complex end of the spectrum we have function, form, tradition, habit, ritual, etc. On the simple end we have compassion and understanding. I prefer to stay on the simpler side of things.

So Demetrio, no irking intended sorry if that was the result.

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: Congratulations! You do look so Japanese now! ... Congratulations! That makes you so more genuine!

I feel a bit sad when reading this part of your answer: I just tried to describe my context of practicing aikido:
The persons who teach aikido in my context are strongly connected with Japan or certain dojo or teachers in Japan (mostly Yamaguchi sensei but also Endo, Sugino and some ohter) through their (aikido-)biographie. Or they just are Japanese. Or they practiced with Japanese teachers here in Europe. In my context there just is no aikido without connection to Japan.
The Yamaguchi Line came to us from France.
But also the aikido in Germany has a Japanese center in Asai sensei since 1965.
So in Germany there is nearly no way to experience aikido seperatde from the connection with Japan.
It's just the way it is.
And this is true also for friends in France, Sweden, ...

And I'm sure that's because they lost connection with Japan. There is no other reason German Aikido has lost it.

No, not really: They wanted to be affiliated with the national Olympic committee and so they had to give up the connection to Japan, because an Japanese teacher couldn't lead this federation. The chairman had to be a German.
And for similar reasons (which I don't really understand) they didn't invite teachers from "outside" and just learned from themselves and graded themselves up to 8th dan.
So there was no input, no real teacher, noone who could make this aikido grow.

I don't know whether aikido always looses it's character when cut off Japan. But in my universe this simply is what I experienced.

So how is your practice of Shinto then? Maybe I didn't understand correctly; sorry about my poor English.

I don't practice shinto. ? I learned that bowing or reishiki in general is not practicing shinto.
I learned also that a standing bow in church or kneeling (to which I was used then) on the other hand is not essential part of christian belief.

Well, it's not about thinking or believing, but about universal laws.

Don't you think that universal laws as far as they concern religious questions are about thinking or believing?
For Ueshiba "ki" was sort of connection with the divine.
IFor me ki is something secular.

Sure it is! And that's why it should interfere with your lutheran faith.

After all those years with a lot of praciticing and thinking and academic (theological) research I don't see what element of reishiki would interfere with my christian/lutheran faith?
Bowing truly not.

Anyway, for some faiths that interference is unacceptable. Plain as that. If lutheranism accepts it, good for you!

Hm, there ar some lutheren pastors I know, praciticing aikido. Also some roman-catholic priests. Some friends are muslims. Some are jews.
I never met someone on a tatami, who didn't bow for religious beliefs.

But this is just my experience.
I know that yours seem to be different.

Well, I don't mean specifically you, you know.

Ok, fine. I became angry when I read this, because I wouldn't dare to judge someone and to say something like this.

Carsten Möllering wrote: Hm, there ar some lutheren pastors I know, praciticing aikido. Also some roman-catholic priests. Some friends are muslims. Some are jews. I never met someone on a tatami, who didn't bow for religious beliefs.

I lived and trained in Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and they do not bow due to their faith (of course this is the center of Islamic law.) I did, but I was the only one. When asking someone else to train with them, instead of bowing they touched their heart and extended their arm toward an area of the mat. This was a sign of open heartedness, a request from the heart. Bowing or the lack thereof was not significant and yet the Aikido was spiritual and powerful.

Well heck. This is an old thread and I haven't re-read it. Life's too short.
The bow (rei) in Japan is roughly equivalent to the handshake in Europe and the Americas. Not religious.
I take my hat off when I go indoors, manners in a western context.
I bow when I enter a dojo - manners in a Japanese context.
Sure, I think it's a little silly to do a real low kowtow to the photo of a guy who developed Aikido and died more than 40 years ago, but it's not religious, it's manners - in the dojo context.
Yes, bowing to Mecca, bowing in church, and all that other stuff is an outward and visible show that you've bought into/been indoctrinated to that religious thing. People could have all that spirituality in their hearts/minds without doing all the bowing but they'd be chastised by the rest of the bible/koran bashers who do actually do the bowing, so they join the throng.

In the dojo it's manners.
IMO - and that's what counts for me...
W

Imagine that you are a strapping lad in Australia and you are in a bar and you ask if anybody has a fag. A slight-built, rather effeminate man walks up to you and hands you a cigarette.......

Imagine you are a strapping lad in Chelsea district in New York City and you are in a bar and you ask if anybody has a fag. A slight-built, rather effeminate man walks up to you and hands you a cigarette........

Stories sound the same, but the word in one cultural milieu has one meaning and a very different meaning in another cultural milieu. Successful interactions within a specific cultural milieu tend to be strongly based upon your knowledge of cultural norms, customs, terms, expectations.....

Aikido is a Japanese martial art. Within that cultural milieu, the bow has a certain meaning with a host of attached expectations, perceptions, etc.. In my own opinion, it is rather rude for me to expect others to use my cultural norms, terms, expectations, etc. within the confines of their cultural milieu. In other words, if the dojo-cho requires that bowing is an integral part of the cultural milieu of that dojo, then that person is simply following standard traditions within that milieu. The dojo-cho is not discriminating against anybody, religion, etc. by insisting on bowing as an integral part of the Japanese dojo culture.

Funny that my opinion has not changed throughout the course of this long thread. I guess I still do not have a problem respecting and utilizing the practices of another culture when I am in their milieu. Kind of like when I eat with my hands when I use to eat dinners at my old Saudi friend's house.

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams wrote: Imagine that you are a strapping lad in Australia and you are in a bar and you ask if anybody has a fag. A slight-built, rather effeminate man walks up to you and hands you a cigarette.......

In Australia?

There are not slight-built, rather effeminate men in Australia.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: In Australia? There are not slight-built, rather effeminate men in Australia.

Do tell us more...

Marc Abrams

Oh man, now you've done it...

Hmmm, weren't there a few (???) football players who came "out"? I think they were neither slight, nor effiminate...nor would I call them so to their face!
Best,
Ron