Making sense of aikido lineage/associations

Morihei ueshiba was under no lineage, and see what happened to him, he never suffered any headache and running around getting approval for what he is and what he does and knows.

now sriously, do aikido not because of the greedy grading system, do it because you love it, and want to share it with others.

Ricky Wood wrote: Peter, I am really curious about this comment; Iwao Yamaguchi was my sensei at Okinawa Aikikai. At the time I was to be tested for shodan I believe he was yondan. As a result, Moriteru Ueshiba came to our dojo in Okinawa to conduct yudansha testing. I tested for shodan before Moriteru Ueshiba. Now, for my questions; Is my 'lineage' with Iwao Yamaguchi or with Moriteru Ueshiba? Would my 'connection' to them need to be clearly broken before another shihan would have anything to do with subsequent dan promotions?

Rick,

Imagine. If, after taking your shodan, you found yourself in Hiroshima for a few years and wanted to train at my dojo, you would be welcome to do so. You could eschew grades and just train, like Mr Golan does. On the other hand, if you wanted to try for your nidan at my dojo, I would need to consult Doshu. He would prpbably say something like, "Well, I graded him to shodan, but he is really Yamaguchi's student. However, it is clear that he has spent a few years training with you, so you can go ahead and examine him. Of course, if, after taking his nidan, he goes back to Okinawa and resumes training with Yamaguchi, you or he should explain what has happened. If he leaves Hiroshima and goes somewhere else, it will be clear from his yudansha passport who he has trained with and so his next shihan will be able to check with you or the Hombu, if he wishes."

Ricky Wood wrote: Iwao Yamaguchi was my sensei at Okinawa Aikikai. At the time I was to be tested for shodan I believe he was yondan. As a result, Moriteru Ueshiba came to our dojo in Okinawa to conduct yudansha testing. I tested for shodan before Moriteru Ueshiba. Now, for my questions; Is my 'lineage' with Iwao Yamaguchi or with Moriteru Ueshiba? Would my 'connection' to them need to be clearly broken before another shihan would have anything to do with subsequent dan promotions?

I think that in some ways Doshu "doesn't count" in the lineage question.

When I did my nidan grading here in the UK, Doshu was present, but it was the names of Fujita Sensei and Kanetsuka Sensei that went in my Yudansha book. Kanetsuka is my teacher, and Fujita was the invited instructor at that Summer School (as well as Kanetsuka's sempai). I gather that this is usually the case. Now if I wanted to grade at Hombu Dojo, I think matters would be very different.

I would think your situation with Yamaguchi Sensei is exactly equivalent.

Alex

In some cases I would say it is an acceptable thing to have done.
For example, I have a very good friend of mine who started his Aikido career in the US and tested for his Shodan under Akira Tohei Sensei as a member of the USAF. He moved around quite a bit as my friend was in the US Air Force (the other USAF), and found himself living for three years in Japan. While there he trained with Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei and tested for his Nidan. He even has one of the wooden tags in Kobayashi Sensei's Dojo with his name on it. When he went back to the US he went back to the USAF, and eventually tested for his Sandan and eventually Yondan under Yamada Sensei. While I don't know all the ins & outs of this example my friend never has had any problems and is quite proud of his own history of training.
Sometimes these types of things happen. I would say that even though I am no longer living in Korea, I'll always be a part of the Korea Aikido Federation. It's where my aikido training really started.

Try this one on...

When Saotome Sensei first started the ASU our ranks came directly from him not from the Aikikai. But I moved to Seattle and was training under Mary Heiny Sensei, who at that time was affiliated under Chiba Sensei in the USAF. When she left to go to Canada, she promoted me to San Dan. But because Saotome Sensei was my real teacher, he also promoted me to San Dan. Chiba Sensei arranged for me to have a Shidoin certificate which arrived signed by Yamada Sensei (I do not think he actually knew who I was).

So I was simultaneously a senior student of Saotome Sensei in the ASU, running a dojo under Chiba Sensei, with San Dans from both the USAF and the ASU and a Shidoin Certificate from Yamada Sensei.

I don't think you get much weirder than that in terms of odd affiliation.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Rick, Imagine. If, after taking your shodan, you found yourself in Hiroshima for a few years and wanted to train at my dojo, you would be welcome to do so. You could eschew grades and just train, like Mr Golan does. On the other hand, if you wanted to try for your nidan at my dojo, I would need to consult Doshu. He would prpbably say something like, "Well, I graded him to shodan, but he is really Yamaguchi's student. However, it is clear that he has spent a few years training with you, so you can go ahead and examine him. Of course, if, after taking his nidan, he goes back to Okinawa and resumes training with Yamaguchi, you or he should explain what has happened. If he leaves Hiroshima and goes somewhere else, it will be clear from his yudansha passport who he has trained with and so his next shihan will be able to check with you or the Hombu, if he wishes."

Thank you Peter. I take it I should refer to Moriteru Ueshiba as Doshu. I appreciate your view on this. It is oftentimes difficult to understand the complexities of Japanese society, let alone the complexities of the budo student/teacher/dojo relationship. A very different environment than that which exists here in America. Even those who attempt to replicate the environment have a difficult time. I have heard Japanese shihan say that any uchideshi program here in America is ill-advised. I have come to appreciate the truthfulness of that. For me the dojo environment/relationship is very different here in America than it is in Japan. I can't say one is preferable to the other but they are certainly different. As a result, I feel somewhat like a social outcast when I have attempted to integrate with various American aikido dojo's. I also consider my 'lineage' to be somewhat special, but of course, everyone feels that way.
Anyway thanks for your time.
Ricky