Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Grant, glad to hear that you have looked into BJJ. It simply is wonderful for giving you a different perspective on jiujistu based arts!

Yeah from time to time you catch guys in aikido like stuff from the knees, especially the new guys!

Curious once you do it and they experience it how quickly they learn to keep there hand/arms in close?

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Pierre, you certainly didn't offend me in anyway. I was just asking you to clarify the basis for your statement. That is all. Experiences are different and it is hard to generalize across the Arts. Your experiences may be different than mine, and that is okay with me. I only ask that when someone has an opinion about a particular topic that they qualify it with whatever experience base they are coming from, if it is from actual experience, or from watching youtube, or what not.

I did a bit of jujitsu to complement my aikido (mostly testing scenarios out). To be more clear, my experience from bjj is that it is primarily consisting of close quarter grappling and groundwork. It is used to help a smaller guy defeat a much bigger person by getting in close. As far to my knowledge, I have not seen any form of bjj that can take on multiple attackers( BUT I COULD BE WRONG) I am by no means an expert. But I have experienced what it feels like to be in a armbar, arm triangle, kimura lock, and leg lock. Had only one gi choke done on me once.
Honestly, its alot of fun and increases your fitness. However, the only downside is that the energy expenditure can be too great sometimes.

I am also a 'brute force" type of person so me prefering aikido might be seem like a contradiction. I also like being on my feet than on my back on the ground.

Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: BJJ is good for one vs one. But it won't help you in the street where weapons are involved. Nor while you lock up with one guy while his buddies pound the living crap out of you.

There may be some (or even a lot) of truth to that...but this I DO know...

the high level of general fitness and conditioning that you see in the UFC would be a GREAT asset to anyone defending themselves. Add a little out of the cage thinking and poof! You may have adaquate self defence.

Or not...depends on the person, same as always.

Best,
Ron

Yes, the issue is looking at it through a literal or one dimensional filter. Sure literally, you spend a great deal of time dealing with one opponent very close in or on the ground.

The reality of it is that you get much more out of the training than just that.

I kind of equate it to this analogy:

We all form the perception that computers can multi-task, that is, deal with multiple inputs and outputs simutaneously, in reality it deals with them one at a time, it just does it quickly and efficiently by taking advantage of the gaps or space that exist between various actions.

Multiple opponent encounters work the same way. We never deal with them all at once, but one opponent at a time. The trick is to do it efficiently, one opponent at a time, and take advantage of the gaps.

The 2nd order effects of BJJ methodology is that you learn how to deal with opponents VERY efficiently at the critical range of the fight. Once you get proficient, it is much easier to "multi-task" that range and deal with multiple opponents. You will find that guys at the purple belt and above range (4 - 10 years of experience) to be quite proficient and competent at many fighting ranges.

Cursory, one would assume that aikido does a better job at training this, than say BJJ. the reality of it is, that it is not necessarily true.

You have to look past the practice of HOW you are training (methodology, and look at WHAT you are training (endstate). It is enlightening when you start looking at the ARTS as methodologies to achieve a desired endstate rather than the literal endstate.

On the energy expenditure issue I'd offer this perspective.

You are correct, beginning or novice BJJer DO expend a great deal of energy to make the gains that they make. However, experienced ones do not over commit and they are very, very efficient in movement.

I have grappled 30 novice soldiers in a row, gassed many of them, submitted all of them, and I was maintaining an moderate aerobic heart rate!

Also, in Real Fights (TM), you will find that you do expend quite a bit of energy, heck there is alot on the line usually, emotions run high, and someone usually has exploited a significant tactical advantage. So, there is much benefit to training at this levels of oxygen deficit. (Train as you Fight).

I hear you on the Brute Force issue. I tend to be that way as well by nature based on my size and mental conditioning as a soldier. Ironically, I found that BJJ actually help me deal with this better than aikido. Actually it serves as therapy for me to make my aikido much more lighter. I approach BJJ no different than aikido, I use the exact same amount of force or rather I try not to.

BJJ at first is intimidating, especiallly for aikidoka that has grown comfortable with aikido. You feel like you know nothing, things happen quickly, and you use force to prevent bad things from happening.

If you stick with it for say a year....you will start to find you aikido again in it...at least that has been my experiences. After 4 years, I can know sometime talk somewhat competently about how the two arts focus on the same concepts.

Check out Roy Dean's website for a good idea about how well it works!

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/

Kevin Leavitt wrote: If you stick with it for say a year....you will start to find you aikido again in it...at least that has been my experiences.

Absolutely! The more I train BJJ the more I rediscover my Aikido

Thanks for the info Kevin!

Thanks, Kevin

Good imput as always

Can I put in a plea to lay this thread to rest and close it to further comments?

It does span 8 years and 48 pages...

If someone is desperate to resurrect an old thread then let them make a convincing case in a new one?!

For reference on an idea:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...ieswithSo.html

<<<
Q. Your list of topics is sorted wrong. It should put the topic with the most recent reply first, rather than listing them based on the time of the original post.

A. It could do that; that's what many web-based forums do. But when you do that certain topics tend to float near the top forever, because people will be willing to argue about H1B visas, or what's wrong with Computer Science in college, until the end of the universe. Every day 100 new people arrive in the forum for the first time, and they start at the top of the list, and they dive into that topic with gusto.

The way I do it has two advantages. One, topics rapidly go away, so conversation remains relatively interesting. Eventually people have to just stop arguing about a given point.
>>>>

Just an forum-aikido related thought

Robert

I hope this thread never dies but grows to take over the entire internet with Aiki...

William Hazen

Thanks Robert for helping us get one step closer to our goal to hit 2000 post!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Thanks Robert for helping us get one step closer to our goal to hit 2000 post!

LOL! When you put it that way...count me in on this action! Muahahahhahaaaah!

Robert Cowham wrote: Can I put in a plea to lay this thread to rest and close it to further comments?

Seconded. This whole argument is the dumbest thing since dog sweaters. I vote for the creation of an "angels dancing on the head of a pin" arguments, so people who like that sort of thing can have their very own space, and the rest of us won't be plagued with the neverending "yes it is" "no it isn't" "argument a" "argument b" "yes but argument c" "oh yeah well argument q" "hey, argument a" "no, argument b"....on and on forever. All well and good for those who like it, but for those who don't, it's like watching people pick their noses.

Actually just bought my Pitt a "I hate Michael Vick" sweater for camping

On the flip side I am back doing Aikido after being away for a couple of years. I had moved and since then I had been doing Gracie Barra BJJ and SSF (Shamrock Submission Fighting). If anyone is familiar about Mr Shamrock's program you can hear him talk about "Taking one's energy" quite frequently when transitioning from one move to the next ... all very Aiki. Anyway - I found the same in BJJ and it helped me see Aikido in a way I had not before.

Going back to this thread ... I guess I will just say that I do not plan to find out. It is not why I am back doing Aikido. I am back in Aikido because I am of the opinion that apart from the Budo aspect it takes my other martial arts experience to the next level ... including my Aikido. Maybe I am wrong, but I am sure because of the many facets of Aikido we probably all take it for different reasons.

Respectfully,

Chris.

Sorry for commenting. But these recurring themes drive me a little batty. Kevin has replied very well, but what is one more drop to the ocean?

. As far to my knowledge, I have not seen any form of bjj that can take on multiple attackers( BUT I COULD BE WRONG).

Nothing is going to help with multiple attackers short of a weapon or running. People who seem to think BJJ is about falling on the ground and flailing around forget that striking too also takes time, you need to aim and you only have two arms. If you need self-defense, then modern martial arts are not the place to start. Jogging, a nice smile and a good attitude is the best self-defense

I am by no means an expert. But I have experienced what it feels like to be in a armbar, arm triangle, kimura lock, and leg lock. Had only one gi choke done on me once.

Don't forget these techniques are designed to incapacitate people and some of the choke and strangles designed to kill. When in training you don't go full throttle on your partner. The same is true with aikido, you could literally thrown someone on their head causeing serious damage. so just because you had tried some BJJ techniques does not mean you necessarily understand their full potential.

Honestly, its alot of fun and increases your fitness. However, the only downside is that the energy expenditure can be too great sometimes.

Like Kevin said, someone who has trained in BJJ for even a short bit soon learns how to control their breathing and heart rate. On our open mats on saturday I typical roll for an hour non-stop (at least 45minutes)....no break, no water. I go against much stronger and much more skilled guys than me. But you learn, the worst technique in BJJ is not having breath control. Similarly, when I go judo, I gas out very quickly due to nervousness. The same would be true if I did true Aikido randoori. When you are not used to something you panic and breathe heavier. As you learn to relax and adapt you can go longer and longer.

Again, why are we so obsessed with fighting?

All well and good for those who like it, but for those who don't, it's like watching people pick their noses.

Heh, well, personally, I always look away when people do things like that!

B,
R

The same is true with aikido, you could literally thrown someone on their head causeing serious damage.

Whenever I hear something like that, I remember a Karo Paresian (sp) fight, where he threw someone on their head at least 5 times in the fight. He still lost the fight...

B,
R (some of the best darn judo I've ever seen in a MMA event)

PS Still not sure he REALLY lost the fight, I'd have hated to take those falls on concrete...

Mary Malmros wrote: Seconded. This whole argument is the dumbest thing since dog sweaters. I vote for the creation of an "angels dancing on the head of a pin" arguments, so people who like that sort of thing can have their very own space, and the rest of us won't be plagued with the neverending "yes it is" "no it isn't" "argument a" "argument b" "yes but argument c" "oh yeah well argument q" "hey, argument a" "no, argument b"....on and on forever. All well and good for those who like it, but for those who don't, it's like watching people pick their noses.

I dunno...
personally I've found this thread to be pretty usefull. If I get tired of what's going on in it at any given time, I disengage from it. I can understand why so many folks dislike this thread. It's fertile ground for contentious, half-assed remarks (many of which I've contributed). Still, while it may not have been initiated very intelligently, the underlying issues (like whether or not we as practicioners of Aikido want to be mechanically effective in "fighting") are still valid ones.
As for the nose-pickers and their audiences: while I'm not saying this applies to you, my slightly misanthropic opinion is that most people like to watch while complaining...kind of a "love to hate it" kind of thing maybe. They may not like to look at the booger itself, but they sure do seem to love looking at the nose-picker.

Matthew Gano wrote: I dunno... personally I've found this thread to be pretty usefull. If I get tired of what's going on in it at any given time, I disengage from it.

But it's always. At. The Top.

I agree, sort old dopey threads to the bottom. To the bottom!

Mary Malmros wrote: But it's always. At. The Top. I agree, sort old dopey threads to the bottom. To the bottom!

Good point...I guess it is a little like those pesky pop-ups most of us would rather not have to always actively ignore.
I wonder if it would be difficult to make the AikiWeb format more customizable...similar to sites like Yahoo.

Mary Malmros wrote: But it's always. At. The Top. I agree, sort old dopey threads to the bottom. To the bottom!

Now come on Mary, no one forces you to click the link. You can exercise some self control and bypass the link or give into the dark side and click it to see what insight (or lack thereof) the thread holds.

Cheers,

Dan

Mary,
Remember the "good old days" at Jae Kim's, when we didn't have time for this kind of stuff? No deep discussions. No endless analyses of hypothetical situations. We just... trained and found out the hard way what worked or didn't in a fight. And if one thing didn't work, we found something else that did work.

You two used to train together?? Wow...never knew that!
See??!?!?!? Something interesting DID come out of this thread!

Best,
Ron

Small world, huh Ron?

What's that six-times-removed theory? That everyone is somehow connected to each other by no more than six in-between people/connectors. Hm. Or was that supposed to be that we're all somehow connected to Steven Seagal by six people...

Can not ... resist ... temptation ... to big ... must not click ... Submit Reply

But Kevin asked for it.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: No William, I'd rather see the "other" thread rise from the grave!

Shamefully bowing my deepest bow

I deserve to be banned for at least a week.

Dieter,
the first rule of fight club is:

You cannot talk about this thread

the second rule of fight club is:

You cannot resurrect this thread.

Your actions are irreprehensible and very, very low...shameful!