Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Jon Reading wrote: From my perspective, aikido is aiki-do, the study of aiki. The point I am trying to make is that I don't want to do jujutsu - I want to train aikido. So what is the point of doing techniques that lack aiki? Do it 10,000 times and all you have practiced is 10,000 techniques that don't have aiki. Now you're an expert in techniques without aiki. This makes no sense.

Morihei Ueshiba originally taught aikijujutsu, and was handing out Daito Ryu aikijujutsu scrolls in his earliest days of teaching. Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them.
He became more esoteric, and it seems his students were unable to understand and learn the aiki aspect. When Kisshomaru took over the post-war dojo, the mechanics of aikido were completely changed to function on a different power driver (i.e. overt movement) instead of the original internal/aiki one. The strategy and tactics of contemporary aikido thus changed as well, to something nearly polar-opposite to that of aikijujutsu. Different drivers led to different arts altogether.

Now, some aikidoka are learning the old aiki method and reverse engineering it into their aikido. I suspect that they are finding that it changes the dynamic of their waza. Before long, it will lead to a change in the dynamic of martial strategy and tactical movement, too.

No...

Cady Goldfield wrote: .....Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them. He became more esoteric, .... o.

Where is there evidence? Is there?

Best,
Bernd

Bernd Lehnen wrote: Where is there evidence? Is there? Best, Bernd

Depends on where your perspective and experiences are. Then, there are observations, combined with the known history of aikido, including interviews with deshi.

Bernd Lehnen wrote: Where is there evidence? Is there? Best, Bernd

Hello Bernd,

There is loads of evidence, but you need to read Onisaburo Deguchi's material and it is all in Japanese, some of it handwritten. However, I think the changes Cady mentioned will be relatively slow to appear in mainstream aikido.

Best wishes,

PAG

Peter,
Yes, I am sure that any change will be slow, and certainly not in all quarters of the aikido world. Rather, small groups or individuals will adapt their aikido and there will be those unique dojo with something different than the mainstream. But mainstream contemporary aikido is its own thing, an art in its own right, and will likely continue on as it is.

Ikeda and Ledyard are trying to get Aikidoka to use this kind of power by teaching on Aikido seminar tours. That is how I met Ledyard - it was during lunch break during a seminar weekend.

Ikeda ended up spending the entire seminar trying to get people to achieve instant kuzushi off of a wrist grab - with no visible movement of the hips or just about any other body part of the nage. He was trying to get us to do it with "aiki" or force vector manipulation or whatever you want to call it. But we weren't able to demonstrate that skill to his satisfaction, so he never did move us on to more "fun shit to do with aiki" type material. It's like Greg Maddux wanting to teach us his trademark changeup pitch, but not being able to do it because we can't even get the basic leg kick right, let alone throw a basic fastball without breaking our shoulders.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Nice description of the sensation and feel, Paolo. You were feeling the effects of what George Ledyard was organizing and moving within his body and directing through your structural alignment to your center of mass. Not waza, but if applied to waza, the waza would be infused with aiki and have a different kind of effect than just a straight jujutsu application. And yes, it "doesn't look like anything" when you are just letting someone feel the process. Without applying it with a technique, it's just quietly affecting your structure from within. If he isn't applying enough force to collapse or move your structure -- but to just let you feel it -- than to someone watching, it will look like you are just standing there holding hands.

Yes, when he took hold of my wrist, and asked "Feel that?", it was a WTF moment.

The problem with Ikeda was that he'd tell the whole room his intention before he did whatever to his uke, thus adding the question of "Is he really doing it, or is it the power of suggestion?". Of course Ikeda has a real skill, based on feeling him, but I think it would help his teaching if he did X to the uke, then told the room what he did instead of the other way around. Whereas, George sent his force to my shoulder or my front hip or whatever, THEN asked me "Where am I now?".

I forgot how I got George to even spend this extra time with me during lunch break. Good luck, I guess. Whenever he said "You're stuck at my shoulder" or that I'm stuck at some other area while trying to connect to his center, it was when I lost the connection to the ground force via my back foot - usually a shoulder tensing up, or maybe an elbow. Later on in the seminar, Ikeda scolded us for not being able to do what he does, because "you don't believe". To me, he's referring to the fact that this stuff is driven by intent - just like I can drink my beer by intending to reach for the mug and raise it to my lips. If you don't believe that your intent can drive something, nothing works. Of course, none of this stuff will work anyway without the required level of relaxation and active ground force.

I feel bad for the aikidoka who thought this seminar was a waste of time and money, but I found it worthwhile and inspirational. That's one of the reasons I keep practicing zhan zhuang (pole standing) regularly - it really is one of the best ways to force the upper body to relax while also training the use of the two basic force vectors. I could also see why not too many people are going to get this aiki thing or 6H or whatever one wants to call it, because who's going to carve out 15-20 min. of their day to just stand? Plus the other solo training that may be required? There's a video in which Chen Xiaowang says he practices standing for as much as 1 hr a day. Ok, he's a Taiji guy, not Daito Ryu, but still people adore his explosive power.

With all due respect to Ikeda Sensei, there must be much more explicit "instruction" than "you have to believe." It is a process, and must be taught as a set of conditions that create an effect.

In the Chinese internal arts, the saying is "I (or "Yi") - Qi - Li" -- in other words, Mind/Intent sparks Energy, which sparks Power. Some extend the saying to "Desire moves Intent; Intent moves Energy; Energy moves Power. Either way, it is a neuromuscular firing that turns the non-verbal drive of desire/intent to action. This is something that any athlete or dancer uses to do what they do. Even when you simply reach for a glass of beer to take a sip, that is the process you are going through. The desire you feel for a sip of beer sparks the mental intent to reach for the glass. The intent sparks the nerve synapses and the muscles, which respond and reach for the beer, bring it back to your mouth, etc. We do these things without conscious thought... we just "do."

With internal martial arts, we have to begin by consciously being deliberate and aware. Then we use that volition, or intent, to recognize and then deliberately isolate and activate very specific muscles, fascia and tendons to achieve the effects we want.

But first, the teacher has to tell you what those muscles and tissues are, and what to feel for. I think that many people do not know how to articulate this.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: Yes, when he took hold of my wrist, and asked "Feel that?", it was a WTF moment. The problem with Ikeda was that he'd tell the whole room his intention before he did whatever to his uke, thus adding the question of "Is he really doing it, or is it the power of suggestion?". Of course Ikeda has a real skill, based on feeling him, but I think it would help his teaching if he did X to the uke, then told the room what he did instead of the other way around. Whereas, George sent his force to my shoulder or my front hip or whatever, THEN asked me "Where am I now?". I forgot how I got George to even spend this extra time with me during lunch break. Good luck, I guess. Whenever he said "You're stuck at my shoulder" or that I'm stuck at some other area while trying to connect to his center, it was when I lost the connection to the ground force via my back foot - usually a shoulder tensing up, or maybe an elbow. Later on in the seminar, Ikeda scolded us for not being able to do what he does, because "you don't believe". To me, he's referring to the fact that this stuff is driven by intent - just like I can drink my beer by intending to reach for the mug and raise it to my lips. If you don't believe that your intent can drive something, nothing works. Of course, none of this stuff will work anyway without the required level of relaxation and active ground force. I feel bad for the aikidoka who thought this seminar was a waste of time and money, but I found it worthwhile and inspirational. That's one of the reasons I keep practicing zhan zhuang (pole standing) regularly - it really is one of the best ways to force the upper body to relax while also training the use of the two basic force vectors. I could also see why not too many people are going to get this aiki thing or 6H or whatever one wants to call it, because who's going to carve out 15-20 min. of their day to just stand? Plus the other solo training that may be required? There's a video in which Chen Xiaowang says he practices standing for as much as 1 hr a day. Ok, he's a Taiji guy, not Daito Ryu, but still people adore his explosive power.

Cady Goldfield wrote: With all due respect to Ikeda Sensei, there must be much more explicit "instruction" than "you have to believe." It is a process, and must be taught as a set of conditions that create an effect. In the Chinese internal arts, the saying is "I (or "Yi") - Qi - Li" -- in other words, Mind/Intent sparks Energy, which sparks Power. Some extend the saying to "Desire moves Intent; Intent moves Energy; Energy moves Power. Either way, it is a neuromuscular firing that turns the non-verbal drive of desire/intent to action. This is something that any athlete or dancer uses to do what they do. Even when you simply reach for a glass of beer to take a sip, that is the process you are going through. The desire you feel for a sip of beer sparks the mental intent to reach for the glass. The intent sparks the nerve synapses and the muscles, which respond and reach for the beer, bring it back to your mouth, etc. We do these things without conscious thought... we just "do." With internal martial arts, we have to begin by consciously being deliberate and aware. Then we use that volition, or intent, to recognize and then deliberately isolate and activate very specific muscles, fascia and tendons to achieve the effects we want. But first, the teacher has to tell you what those muscles and tissues are, and what to feel for. I think that many people do not know how to articulate this.

After the seminar, I was able to ask around a bit and what I gathered was that Ikeda taught some solo and partner training stuff at seminars in past years; including but obviously not limited to, "sitting zhan zhuang" and force vectoring between partners sharing a jo. He reportedly also spoke of dantien rotation exercise and exerting jin against a wall, counter tops, etc. Nobody though mentioned him explaining the 3 Internal Harmonies (of the Six Harmonies) which you mention above. In any case, Ikeda expected those who attended his seminars in past years to remember what he taught in the past and be actively practicing the stuff. I don't see though how this can work without a review of the basics. All the good workshops I've attended (in music as well as MA) always started with a review of the basics before proceeding to the funner, more advanced stuff.

Of the two basic force vectors, I found gravity trickier to use, even under the guidance of a teacher with good communication skills, in the most obvious scenario to use it: The single-leg takedown. I had trouble understanding that it requires intent to work. Again, this is with a good teacher actually supervising. I can only imagine just how much harder it is for random guy to learn to use it when the teacher is presenting it as "make line to partner tailbone", then walks around a crowded dojo in which random dude has only a 50% chance of the teacher coming to his side of the mat. "Make line" is a clear reference to intent ("Yi") but it was difficult for the teacher to communicate that the upper body must be relaxed, and there must be an active ground force.

I have heard and read about the same concerns from seminar attendees of other teachers of internal methods. One of the problems I see for teachers who do many seminars and have a lot of repeat attendees, is how to present material that will take the more experienced people to the next level, while also being able to address the needs of the first-timers and less-experienced attendees.

This is a relatively new "industry," and I suspect that most of these instructors are learning by trial and error. Those with seminar participants who have been to six or more sessions over the years, might be seeing these people more as students, and may want to work with them further and let assistants help the newbies. Maybe they should have beginner, intermediate and advanced seminars to address the different skill levels. My sense, though, is that this option is not so viable for instructors who are traveling long distances and need to ensure that there will be enough students enrolled in a seminar to make the trip viable. Hence, they may continue to offer just one seminar in a particular location, then dedicate part of one day to introductory basics/review, and the rest to introducing new material to the old-timers.

Whatever the issues are regarding the content of the seminars themselves, I do believe that the teaching language -- the ability to articulate principles and concepts -- is the biggest problem, and seems to be what is most confusing to seminar attendees. Unless a teacher is deliberately withholding some information or guidance , the chief obstacle to transmission of knowledge is usually in the way it's communicated. Some seem to still be struggling with being able to explain in detail exactly what each tanren/drill is supposed to accomplish, what specific body tissues and mechanics you must recognize and activate to do it, and how to test whether you are activating the correct things.

Remedy to this can be as simple as coming up with very basic pre-tanren mini-exercises that simply help you find a particular muscle or fascia sheet and make it move. Analogies and metaphors can also help. For instance, the "beer sip" one that I described earlier, can help you parse out the process of making an action that we do without deliberation, and take for granted. Now, apply that to consciously activating one specific muscle that you know is part of the "rotate dantian/tanden" process. If you know where and what that muscle is, you should be able to deliberately make it move... that's the same intent that makes you reach out with your hand to pick up a cup. See what I mean?

Another thing to consider: Each teacher has different jargon, terminology, and training drills, so cross-training at different teachers' events can add to the confusion. My recommendation to people wanting to learn these skills, is to choose one teacher and his/her method, and stick to it.

Don't expect to be an expert even after a lot of seminars. As I'm sure you know, the only way to get a complete education in this, as in any skill, is through direct transmission/jikiden from the teacher, over the course of years. But, it is reasonable to expect to learn some things about structure, energy use and force, that will improve and enhance your aikido or other art IF you take good notes, practice constantly and consistently, and correspond with others who are training the same way, to compare notes and help each other with understanding.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: After the seminar, I was able to ask around a bit and what I gathered was that Ikeda taught some solo and partner training stuff at seminars in past years; including but obviously not limited to, "sitting zhan zhuang" and force vectoring between partners sharing a jo. He reportedly also spoke of dantien rotation exercise and exerting jin against a wall, counter tops, etc. Nobody though mentioned him explaining the 3 Internal Harmonies (of the Six Harmonies) which you mention above. In any case, Ikeda expected those who attended his seminars in past years to remember what he taught in the past and be actively practicing the stuff. I don't see though how this can work without a review of the basics. All the good workshops I've attended (in music as well as MA) always started with a review of the basics before proceeding to the funner, more advanced stuff. Of the two basic force vectors, I found gravity trickier to use, even under the guidance of a teacher with good communication skills, in the most obvious scenario to use it: The single-leg takedown. I had trouble understanding that it requires intent to work. Again, this is with a good teacher actually supervising. I can only imagine just how much harder it is for random guy to learn to use it when the teacher is presenting it as "make line to partner tailbone", then walks around a crowded dojo in which random dude has only a 50% chance of the teacher coming to his side of the mat. "Make line" is a clear reference to intent ("Yi") but it was difficult for the teacher to communicate that the upper body must be relaxed, and there must be an active ground force.

I had the time and some extra money, so I took advantage of the opportunity to attend the Ikeda-Ledyard seminar. No regrets on my part. I was just lucky that Budd's workshop was right before the seminar.

I'm not ready to focus on becoming invincible or an expert. If I can just get my MA seniors to stop nagging me to relax, that would be good enough for the foreseeable future. I understand they nag me because they have been able to see the tension in my body. But lately, they say I'm getting better - progress!

Like I said, anything you gain from this training will enhance your aikido and can take you to amazing places. Great that you are getting positive feedback from people who know what they are seeing/feeling in you. Good luck, keep up the good work, and enjoy your training.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: I had the time and some extra money, so I took advantage of the opportunity to attend the Ikeda-Ledyard seminar. No regrets on my part. I was just lucky that Budd's workshop was right before the seminar. I'm not ready to focus on becoming invincible or an expert. If I can just get my MA seniors to stop nagging me to relax, that would be good enough for the foreseeable future. I understand they nag me because they have been able to see the tension in my body. But lately, they say I'm getting better - progress!

Cady Goldfield wrote: It takes very little aiki to affect an opponent's structure. When the opponent attacks with force, it just increases the amount of energy that nage has available to work with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

I like what I see here - have seen these vids before - but I have to say, that a lot of my Aikikai experience in the UK and Japan was just like that. And ... it does NOT lead to the students being able to do aiki at all. Self-flying/falling uke syndrome is predominant everywhere.

If the aiki training does not target real aggressive resistance it can have no validity. Aikidoka are just too passive. Likewise in Jujutsu schools.

We must be passive to get the concept, of course, but then we must seek resistance to test it. If your uke falls over - you need a new uke because he is of no more use to you. You need to find someone you can't do it on to improve. BUT, if you go too far in the other direction, you just end up with what I call Aiki-Judo. Also, nagare training is not aiki training either. it is just compliance training. It is useful, but it does not lead to aiki.

But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.

Rupert Atkinson wrote: But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.

But, but... uke is going to get killed!!!

Remember the tale of Ueshiba being asked by Admiral Takeshita to demo in front of a member of the Imperial family...

These are not self-flying uke, Rupert. They are mechanically impelled to move. Their structure is being controlled.

Many of these things can be done by pain compliance, but aikijujutsu waza driven by internals/aiki actually make uke go whether he "wants" to or not. That's why Ueshiba said "Aiki is making people do what I want them to."

What Salahuddin Muhammad is doing is these videos is -nothing- like Aikikai. Aikikai lacks the internal drivers employed here, and relies instead on overt movement and psychological tactics.

Rupert Atkinson wrote: I like what I see here - have seen these vids before - but I have to say, that a lot of my Aikikai experience in the UK and Japan was just like that. And ... it does NOT lead to the students being able to do aiki at all. Self-flying/falling uke syndrome is predominant everywhere. If the aiki training does not target real aggressive resistance it can have no validity. Aikidoka are just too passive. Likewise in Jujutsu schools. We must be passive to get the concept, of course, but then we must seek resistance to test it. If your uke falls over - you need a new uke because he is of no more use to you. You need to find someone you can't do it on to improve. BUT, if you go too far in the other direction, you just end up with what I call Aiki-Judo. Also, nagare training is not aiki training either. it is just compliance training. It is useful, but it does not lead to aiki. But going back to the start ... those vids are excellent ... just ... go try it on an uncooperative uke. If you can do that .. then yes ... I will be impressed.

Wanna hear about another metric to determine if you are doing aiki (or having aiki done to you)?Compulsion. Seriously. Often, we think of pain as a compliance mechanic, but aiki does not necessarily require it. Aiki feels more like you are compelled to move without a concrete understanding of why. This feeling has been described by several of O Sensei's students, as well as others practicing in the aiki arts.

So here is where I say to think back on everyone you work with and critically evaluate whether the exchange between you was compelled. Did you move only because it hurt? Did you move because you were told to move? Did you move as a act of charity? Did you move because it was the form? If that little voice in the back of your head said "yes," to any of these questions... Then you were probably not experiencing aiki (or moving with aiki). Simply put, if you were uke and you moved because you chose to move... If you were nage and you ever commanded your partner to move because otherwise she was not moving... There is usually a long silence here as the disbelief sets in. I'll wait...

Most of our aikido experience lacks aiki - we work out with students who don't possess aiki - we don't possess aiki - and our instructors often don't possess aiki. Sometimes, we go to a seminar or gets hands on someone and the difference is so great, we often say something like, "She feels like nothing I've felt!" Or, "He's softer than anyone I have touched!" Then there's the deshi favorite, "I didn't know what was happening to me." or go totally Eastern mystical, "In a flash I was unable to move." These are all concrete descriptions of the unique feeling of aiki and different from how we usually feel.

So after dropping that bomb... Demetrio's comment about O Sensei's demo makes sense. Most of us are used to training in a way that hearing an aikido person say, "with that move I could kill you," is pretty difficult to take seriously. We sometimes even giggle or chuckle as we say it. Here's how backwards we are though. O Sensei making a comment like that is something to chuckle at, yet I can't count the number of times on the mat someone told me to move because a devastating blow was coming my way if I didn't. And since it seems like I am insulting the world in this post, let me just continue on my streak... O Sensei could deliver devastating blows; many of us can't.

The honest truth is most of us are not familiar with that kind of movement or the feeling associated with it. Looking at a video without the experience to sympathize with what is happening makes for a difficult time to comprehend the reality of what we see. This is the core of it has to be felt, and the the problem with Internet-based conversations. Moving to a disadvantaged position is counter-intuitive to most fight science. In no practical way should we willfully move to a position that weakens our advantage. Why practice a system that asks you to disadvantage yourself? You shouldn't and you could look at this issue as yet another indicator that maybe we are not correctly moving.

Cady Goldfield wrote: These are not self-flying uke, Rupert. They are mechanically impelled to move. Their structure is being controlled. .

I have experienced the above in a few places - and in a few Aikikai instructors. Yes - I agree with you - it is very good - it is what we should be after - and all their students try to do it. But ... none of them can do it. Add my assertion is that when they are doing it, it is because they are just being too compliant. They become overly trained to react in that way. And .. I say .. that is why it becomes so elusive. I am guilty of it myself. Once infected - hard to get rid of - the compliance, I mean. Catch 22.

Rupert Atkinson wrote: I have experienced the above in a few places - and in a few Aikikai instructors. Yes - I agree with you - it is very good - it is what we should be after - and all their students try to do it. But ... none of them can do it. Add my assertion is that when they are doing it, it is because they are just being too compliant. They become overly trained to react in that way. And .. I say .. that is why it becomes so elusive. I am guilty of it myself. Once infected - hard to get rid of - the compliance, I mean. Catch 22.

Test it on newcomers, people with no martial training. Preferably, big, huge guys. I have.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Jujutsu is waza. Aiki is body method -- the power-driver. When aiki and jujutsu waza are combined, you get aikijujutsu. Aiki allows you to manipulate your own internal muscle, fascia and tendon in ways that reinforce your structure and generate power that can penetrate an opponent's structure without making much overt movement. Without the aiki, it is jujutsu... which is dependent on externally-applied leverage, vectors, and overt movement of mass to work.

Yes, that's what i get from the writings and explanations. Aiki is what made Daito ryu different then all the other arts of the time and still today.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Test it on newcomers, people with no martial training. Preferably, big, huge guys. I have.

I test my stuff on whoever I can. My favourite guys are the ones it doesn't work on.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Morihei Ueshiba originally taught aikijujutsu, and was handing out Daito Ryu aikijujutsu scrolls in his earliest days of teaching. Later, he formulated aikido by retaining just the bare-bones jujutsu waza necessary to serve as a vehicle for different ways of applying aiki body method to power them.

He also practiced and developed weapons techniques at the time, probably because he wanted to teach Aiki through them to soldiers in the army.

He became more esoteric, and it seems his students were unable to understand and learn the aiki aspect. When Kisshomaru took over the post-war dojo, the mechanics of aikido were completely changed to function on a different power driver (i.e. overt movement) instead of the original internal/aiki one. The strategy and tactics of contemporary aikido thus changed as well, to something nearly polar-opposite to that of aikijujutsu. Different drivers led to different arts altogether.

I wound't say completely changed, and definitely not with all deshi in the Aikikai. Even now there can be seen techniques identical to those of O'Sensei from some of the books he published, within the instructors from the Aikikai. The main difference is that there are so many variations that certain groups only do certain variations of techniques. Morihiro Saito, by all accounts, preserved all of the techniques just as he learned them directly from O'Sensei, also by many accounts Yoshinkan and Iwama are very similar in the execution in their techniques. What is in fact the main difference is the lack of Aiki exercises in all styles.

While we are on the subject. Does anybody know about practitioners from Yoshinkan, Iwama or Shodokan who have dabbled in the world of Aiki and if they had more success in developing Aiki? I mean if the waza was mean't to be a vessel for Aiki, the practitioners from those styles, which are officially more authentic in the waza to that of O'Sensei, should have had it easier to develop Aiki.

Jon Reading wrote: Most of us are used to training in a way that hearing an aikido person say, "with that move I could kill you," is pretty difficult to take seriously.

Depends on whom you are talking to. For the most part i agree that it's an outlandish claim, but only for the person making the claim. Not for certain techniques themselves.

Jon Reading wrote: Why are we ignoring "instant"? Why are we ignoring multiple references to kuzushi on contact, a trait described by almost ever deshi who was ever interviewed when asked about attacking O Sensei. Because we can't do it, so it must be wrong. Or, better yet, a metaphor.

I wouldn't say people are ignoring rather "instant kuzushi" is thought of being a part of regular waza training dependent on timing and reaction not of Aiki for which most doesn't even know exist as a separate training activity. So in a sense it is a metaphor. Instead of being "Aiki kuzushi", controlling Uke with power gained from internal training regimes, it is "waza kuzushi", pure physical control of Uke based on external practices.