MMA and Aiki Expo

Roman Kremianski wrote: Video please? Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.

I have a small clip where some tall guy with blonde (grey) ponytail plays with Mr. MMA.

But i haven't drink enough to release it.

William:

I did my doctorate down in San Diego. After I finished, I left from the land of "terra shake-ah" to the land of terra firma. I realized that if the ground was not shaking, the mud was not sliding, the fires were not being driven by the Santa Ana's, that it was just an empty day in California!

Enjoyed my time in Ca, but too much of a New Yorker in my heart. Although, plan to build a house on a nice piece of property that I own on Grand Cayman Island, when I retire. That is of course, if the island is not submerged as a result of the ice-cap melting from global warming! Love the beach, but hate the shakes and fires!

Lots of Love!

Marc Abrams

William Prusner wrote: I find it humorous that this MMA v. Aikido debate rages on. It makes some sense to me that proponents of Aikido would feel some desire to defend their chosen art (although I personally do not. I think the Aikido tradition can fend for itself,just as it was long before I came along). But what I find truly funny is this: If you love MMA so much, wouldnt you want to spend your time reading all of the exciting stuff that's being posted on the MMA web forums that might help you in your MMA technique? Interesting, insightful stuff, that's applicable to the style you adore so much? But you keep comin back to the AikiWeb, you love it, you just can't stay away!!! Actions speak louder words, and the fact that the MMA guys keep posting is just proof that there is something very worthwhile (and attractive) about aikido.

I think it has more to do with being an internet troll. Sometimes Trollshido just doesn't satisfy them anymore so they post over here to get their kicks. Yes, unfortunately there are such things as MMA trolls. It's more unfortunate that there are a few here. Wish they'd return from whence they came...

Even worse, in my opinion, are the "MMA evangelists" who preach the gospel of MMA and try to convert us. They claim not to care if we believe them or not concerning their opinions and conclusions about Aikido, but yet still keep posting in earnest, still trying to convince us of their viewpoint. Wish they'd also return from whence they came...

Hmmm...I'm trying to imagine who these "trolls" are...

I can think of several people who contribute to this board who are participants in MMA training. None of the ones I'm thinking of remind me of "trolls" in the least. Not even a little bit.

Lessee...Budd, Kevin, Paul, Don, Keith, (and a few other names I can't remember) all make positive contributions to the board, even though their perspectives are often different from the "norm". But I appreciate their perspectives none the less.

They also seem to be very gentlemanly in their behavior online, as well as in person (for the ones I've met).

Best,
Ron

All i'm saying is that if I love auto racing, I would be on the auto racing forum. Not on the canoeing forum, trying to convince those folks that canoeing is not a viable means of transportation.

(unless, I secretly love travelling via canoe, but don't want to admit it for some deep-seated personal reason... (ego, fear, ???))

Again, your description does not match the posters I mentioned...

Perhaps you could be clearer as to whom you are referring...

After all, it could be that they enjoy BOTH aikido AND MMA...right?

Best,
Ron

point taken, and no disrespect implied or intended toward any of the posters or their opinions. I am a huge supporter of diversity and have learned much from the opinions presented throughout the varied threads on this forum. I also enjoy these particular discussions because it inspires me to think through scenarios I might otherwise not. However, out of respect for the prime directive of this forum, it just seems that the discussion ought to be within the art of Aikido. Bringing other arts into the mix could be done ad nauseum and just seems kinda out of left field, and ponderous, to me. What's next? Aikido v. Southern Praying Mantis, Aikido v. Fly Fishing. Where do you draw the line? I mean, if it were a thread about how the principle of "taking the center" or "extension" is beneficial to a practitioner of MMA, then I could understand, but, a comparison for comparison's sake of two completely unrelated endeavors, I find a little tedious. Although, as I stated, I have to admit that on some level I do enjoy reading the positions of knowledgeable folks debating the merits of each style and would most likely be severely disappointed if it ever came to an end. Kinda contradictory, huh?

Kinda contradictory, huh?

The best things in life are often when two opposites attract.

B,
R

Amen to that, my brother.

I would take it as a good sign personally. MMA has had some sort of an impact on almost every martial art on the planet. I'm not saying that every art is looking to become MMA - but it has challenged training paradigms and forced many arts to question some of their assumptions.

Even where people have been through that process and decided there are good reasons for conintuing to do what they do in the way they do it, I believe that "check" is beneficial.

That being the case, if on a forum like this MMA never came up I think it would be a cause for concern. It would indicate a community completely unaware of the evolution of what s happening around them. So the fact it is discussed to me is just an indication that this particular community does not have their head in the sand.

Michael Fooks wrote: MMA has had some sort of an impact on almost every martial art on the planet.

Ah, the proverbial chicken or the egg, huh?

MMA is part of the general martial arts scene, but it is also it's own world, quite separate from the aiki-sphere.

It's popularity should have us focusing on our uniqueness as aikidoka if we want our art to survive the current marketplace.

It's OK if they are better fighters...there's a pro league and the demands placed on top level MMAists is way beyond what most aikidoka will ever encounter.

So let's enjoy the blood and not worry too much.

Lyle Bogin wrote: It's popularity should have us focusing on our uniqueness as aikidoka if we want our art to survive the current marketplace.

exactly. This is the type of discussion it should be generating - because it *is* a marketplace and people are going to start coming into it much more educated on the trends - I"m sure many people are seeing that already...

There are some of us that may have given up on the physical side of Aikido, but are still searching for the spiritual/philosophical side. Hope that answers someone's question as to "why MMA guys are still on aikiweb".

Loads of great MMA guys here, like Don. They usually do a pretty good job at shutting people up when Aikido's physical application gets exaggerated.

You are being more than fair LOL..

I am confused. First you tell me about how an "MMA guy" walked in and got whooped

(By which I think you wanted to say, "MMA FAILS LOL")

Then you flat out agree when George comes in and basically says the guy was a random low beginner off the street.

accidental double post

Roman Kremianski wrote: There are some of us that may have given up on the physical side of Aikido, but are still searching for the spiritual/philosophical side. Hope that answers someone's question as to "why MMA guys are still on aikiweb". Loads of great MMA guys here, like Don. They usually do a pretty good job at shutting people up when Aikido's physical application gets exaggerated. I am confused. First you tell me about how an "MMA guy" walked in and got whooped (By which I think you wanted to say, "MMA FAILS LOL") Then you flat out agree when George comes in and basically says the guy was a random low beginner off the street.

You just don't get it and why should you? My point had nothing to do with MMA. It had to do with the persons conduct. You've "given up" on Aikido which means you're just wasting your time here... Hiding behind Don pointing the finger will not lead you to a spiritual path.

I respect Don however... I have been there and done that... I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it. It has it's strengths and weaknesses and what it comes down to is something you've alluded to in your post and some folks here have tried to point out to you in a very polite manner...

If your Aikido practice is weak That means you're weak...

If it's the Sensei's or Aikido Style that is at "fault" and you feel your Aikido is weak well change Sensei's otherwise if you want to take up a spiritual practice try Tai Chi or some other Internal Art. Aikido is a MARTIAL ART AND>>>> A Spiritual Practice...Some styles of Aikido emphasize one over the over....So the excuse that Aikido does not work comes back to you once again...

MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone. Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations. I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....

I have had many guys like you over the years Roman....When they whine about beginner wrist grabbing or the slow pace of learning Shoji Nishio Shihan's Aikido I usually fix that with a little Randori and ask them to share thier best stuff...If they are still unsatisfied then I ask them to leave and find something that works for them....Perhaps they will come back...Most don't...

I also have allot of folks with Dan Ranks in other Martial Arts in our class....To a person they love what Aikido has to offer...

Good Luck...

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: You just don't get it and why should you? My point had nothing to do with MMA. It had to do with the persons conduct. You've "given up" on Aikido which means you're just wasting your time here...

It's possible that you don't get it perhaps? Roman didn't say he'd given up on Aikido, he said he'd given up on a certain aspect of Aikido. Are you suggesting that people can only be interested in Aikido for exactly the same reasons you are?

I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it. It has it's strengths and weaknesses and what it comes down to is something you've alluded to in your post and some folks here have tried to point out to you in a very polite manner...

Agreed. There's nothing "wrong' with it. It is what it is. Often the debate is over what it is and what it isn't good for rather than whether it's "broken". But often that point is lost on some. I suspect Roman understands this point very well but that you and he have a different idea as to what it's strengths and weaknesses are..

If your Aikido practice is weak That means you're weak...

Do you know something about Romans Aikido practice that we don't?

if you want to take up a spiritual practice try Tai Chi or some other Internal Art.

so Aikido's not an internal art? It's not a valid spiritual practice?

MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone.

Spoken like someone that's never been in an MMA gym for any length of time. Some may argue that there are elements of MMA training that build character very effectively. Maybe even more so than speaking in a foreign language while bowing because sensei says so (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just don't think it necessarily builds character)

Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations.

enlighten us

I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....

Surely you didn't mean to be as insulting as you were by putting sport in scare quotes. Surely?

William Hazen wrote: All I can say is Nature is the ultimate Sensei.

... and one who always offers a fully committed and intense attack. Stay safe.

William Hazen wrote: I respect Don however... I have been there and done that... I know what Aikido is and how it works and the simple fact of the matter is there is nothing "wrong" with it.

I agree, depending on what you are expecting to get out of your training, there is nothing wrong with anything. What I talk about (and I know you were not addressing me) is honesty in training and efficient ways to develop effective training methods. I keep the spirituality out of it. How a person is spiritual is none of my business. Most of my posts are just me exploring how I feel on a subject and understanding how others react to that. This allows me to address my own training and grow in a technical and maybe even spiritual sense.

William Hazen wrote: MMA may survive just fine without a spiritual side by the way....but without a strong ethical foundation it may limit it's appeal to young men with a hard on for beating on someone. Why do you think Professional Boxing is in decline??? Some will it's because of the rise in popularity of MMA The folks I am friends with ( One is a VP in the largest boxing federation) have other observations. I think the UFC is a top notch organization but it has has allot of growing to do and the jury is still out on how it will help promote the "sport" of MMA....

I think any sport like boxing, wrestling, mma, rugby, football (american), etc will always attract kids who initially just want to hurt people. However, the method of practice quickly isolates and breaks down kids like this. It is impossible to be a tough guy in MMA. Unless you are the best, someone will knock you on your butt. Your coaches will push you until you are beaten. You have to learn to lose. Kids who want to hurt people have egos that can't handle losing, they either change, or quit. Boxing is declining not because of MMA or aggression.

It is a business model. First, nobody teaches boxing. Try finding a place to learn to box in northwest indiana, it's very hard. Second try finding a fight, again very hard. The reason? Profit. It is not profitable to run a boxing match, this is the promotions problem. They ruined the sport with fragmented promotions and tons of weight classes and belts. Rarely are champs undisputed and it is very hard to follow the sport. Contrast that to MMA. You have 1 or 2 promotions that are in the public eye, high profile fighters, and easy access. This leads to popularity, which makes it easier for local promoters to run shows, so kids can find fights easier, which makes it profitable to run a gym, so the kids can get trained. All business.

I still can see no reason why MMA would be at odds with any martial art. I see no reason for sparing to be at odds with any martial art. I have still to this date not been given a compelling argument as to why sparing is bad.

And that is the essence of what we are talking about, training methods. MMA is nothing more then a collection of training methods, aikido is the same, no more no less. Most people's problem with different training methods is either the hype of that method, or the fact that their arts founder, their instructor, or some other instructor looks down on that method. Sometimes what they are lacking is a understanding of why this is the case, and if the issues brought up are really real. They also sometimes miss the picture that their founders normally did not just spring fourth with martial knowledge, but rather learned a art then changed the training method! Worse then that, some arts practitioners fail to even realize that the MMA training method was their training method, it has just be corrupted over time for the sake of making money or to hide an instructors lack of skill.

Just is a prime example. If you read tomiki or kano's writings, you see he was working to have a form of randori and competition with strikes as well as throws and ground work. He said that it was impossible at his time to do all that together safely, and that it would be up to future generations to find a way. Tomiki found his randori/competition as the second component to kano's up close grappling randori. Now with modern safety equipment, we have the ability to make kano's true randori a real possibility, but we do not see judo guys trying to implement this kind of practice. Why? Because it's not judo, and it exposes a lack of skill that would need to be filled (striking).

So I guess what I'm saying is that all martial arts are not perfect. And I hope that everyone realizes this and trys to improve their art. Allowing an art to stagnate will only lead to its devolution and will become a watered down dance form. I see this most in my judo practice vs my bjj practice. Bjj guys are always trying to find out how to improve their game, using new ideas from other grappling arts, practicing new strategies that are not common, playing with new types of movements and made up techniques. Judo guys are always saying "That's not judo". And thats the best part about MMA. There is nothing you can train that is not MMA as long as you have the mindset.

Ugh. I see too many people talking at each other, but not enough listening and talking to each other.

Ron - I'm not really an MMA guy I just like to borrow some of the sport's training methodologies (which were borrowed or evolved from other arts' training methodologies) and work out with people that do . . . oh wait, I just remembered the first rule about fight club

Giancarlo - I think what folks are saying is that they don't see where you get the authority to make judgement calls about laying hands on anybody. Some folks get away with it because a number of people have met them behind the scenes (even if they don't talk about it) and can verify their chops. The problem is the kind of claims you're making 1) aren't verifiable 2) don't really give weight to your arguments 3) also don't really cast you in a favorable light . . . so maybe people are puzzled why you're making them?

Roman - I understand where you're coming from, in terms of moving on to other training methodologies. But the way you come across, especially if you recall your stances from before you were training MMA, is that you've traded one belief system for another. I think what "some" of us are trying to caution you against is so readily trading one form of zealotry for another - it's a great big world out there. Keep training, keep asking questions, but don't make the same mistake that lots of us make, or have made, and presume that you're coming from a position of authority because of what you've trained and who you train with . . . even if people try to give it to you. The problem with having authority is that sooner or later people expect you to show that you've earned it .

Others that are now all disparaging about MMA and talking about MMA on an aikido board - one of my big beefs with mainstream aikido is this perceived superiority from moral and, by some, martial fortitude. It becomes this big pose of "O-Sensei said" or "My teacher said" whereby the speaker is passing the buck of responsibility for their own progress to someone else.

I think loving protection is great. I think martial effectiveness is great. I don't think you can honestly have the former, in a martial context, without the latter. The problem then becomes avoiding the pitfalls of honest testing vs. insularity vs. kidding ourselves. Aspects of MMA can provide an excellent venue to train/test some of those skills. Plus, a lot of us think it's fun.

Okay, I'm off for an all day meeting with no Interweb. Will catch up later.

Don - you snuck that in while I was on my soap-box. Can't argue with your thoughts even if they aren't the same as mine

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I have a small clip where some tall guy with blonde (grey) ponytail plays with Mr. MMA.

IMHO, if those are the best deadly jabs the old guy has, then he really sucks. LOL

Roman Kremianski wrote: Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.

It may come back to MMA if all you are interested in is a good athletic competition, but step outside the rules of the contest and the current tactics of MMA are not as attractive. This is not a knock on MMA or it's participants as MMA is a very demanding and tough activity.

Do you understand that the RULES of the athletic contest dictate the strategies and tactics used by the contestants? Change the rules and the strategies and tactics will instantly change. Again this is not a knock on MMA it is merely an acknowledgement of the truth.

In case you are having trouble understanding my meaning let me give an example or two. If we tweak the rules just a little can you see how the contestants would need to change their tactics? Let us say that once a round the ref is allowed to haul off and strike or stop one of the contestants. Just flat out cold cock one of them. Would being in the mount be a desirable position? How about in a three round fight each fighter was allowed one round to hide a small knife on his own body for use during that one round. Would fighters be using the same tactics or would they need to adapt what they do? Or perhaps each fighter was allowed one round with a friend jumping into the ring to help him out for say 30 seconds. Does grappling on the ground look as attractive now?

Keep in mind I greatly enjoy ground grappling but I have no illusions of the dangers of using it outside of an athletic contest. For training purposes ground grappling builds a strong body, solid understanding of body mechanics, body positioning, breathing, flow, etc. Great stuff and well worth the sweaty training.

Rules dictate tactics. This is no different in a violent encounter outside the ring. The problem is a criminal by definition does not accept the same set of rules as a law abiding citizen. Frankly the chap that is least inhibited or constrained by rules has a huge advantage and likelihood of success.

Just some food for thought.

Take care,

Mark J.

Lynn Seiser wrote: IMHO, if those are the best deadly jabs the old guy has, then he really sucks. LOL

First the old guy with the ponytail, then the old fat guy. the boy had a tough day there.

George:

You ruined him for the rest of us! After you allowed him to experience the sensation of trying to lift a man twice his weight, he was reduced to whining about his bad back!

Then again, the rest of his crew of "elite marital artists" did a great job representing him during his class!

Marc Abrams