There's going to be trouble

Jean de Rochefort wrote: whoops, sorry. Apparently I over-estimated your ability to interpret what I was saying. Being that the topic is about a group of "bullies," I figured everyone would understand that I was talking proverbially. I'll keep you in mind in future posts. Again, sorry.

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Is a proverb.

You were saying that you thought the point of training was to "if you're walking down a street and someone tried to interfere with your progress you could eliminate their presence with the least personal effort."

That would either be walking around them, or asking them to move.

I suggested reporting the situation to an authority figure in case it does happen, it was forewarned and their punishment for such an act will be more severe. This doesn't mean stand there and take your beating, especially if it's in an american school (you get suspened whether you fight or not) however it's important to keep in mind the amount of people and the possibility of weapons being present.

sorry again, I was more refering to "So you're going to drop the hot dog guy?" Apparently, I shouldn't of quoted the entire post.

Regarding "proverb": that's a great example of a proverb. That would fit the first definition of "proverbial" in the Webster's Dictionary. The fourth definition is "having become an object of common mention or reference."

I guess I'd figured the bully had become the common. Thanks for the lesson on "proverbial."

sorry again for the confusion. I'll watch it in the future.

Jean de Rochefort wrote: sorry again, I was more refering to "So you're going to drop the hot dog guy?" Apparently, I shouldn't of quoted the entire post. Regarding "proverb": that's a great example of a proverb. That would fit the first definition of "proverbial" in the Webster's Dictionary. The fourth definition is "having become an object of common mention or reference." I guess I'd figured the bully had become the common. Thanks for the lesson on "proverbial." sorry again for the confusion. I'll watch it in the future.

What you mean is something widely spoken or known of. Example: A turtle's proverbial speed. Also, in your post you referred to the "Bullies" as "someone" indicating one, rather than many. So I naturally assumed you meant only one person, hence my reference to the hot dog guy:

However, I was under the impression that you trained so that if you're walking down a street and someone tried to interfere with your progress you could eliminate their presence with the least personal effort.

It was meant more as a sarcastic joke, than an insult.

one of the instructors at my school had this exact problem.there was a guy that kept picking on him because he was just being a jurk and so the instructor whent to the police several times and they just kept fileing it away and wasnt helping.so what he did was reqwarded every time he had went to the police on a paper.see the thing is you want to tell the police but some time they can make it worse.but enyway one day he attacked another guy right in front of him brakeing a mans fist in front of him.then went to atack the instructor who beat the crap out of him but of course the instructor had a few bruses as well.enyway when they got to court he had to pay only a small fine because he had every account of when he went to the police and they should of stoped it sooner.the funny part thoe is the fine because the other guy wanted to sue for he had fallen off the table and in doing so lost some teeth saying it was the instructors falt when he wasnt even there.so as you can see you can get screwed either way just make sure you stay with your friends because they pick on you individuelly they wont take you all on.But if its a famous gang like well known just try to keep away because it allways becomes a long chain of alies.i can tell you whatever but its really up to you to decide what you think is right just dont get killed.

Humans possess a wide variety of traits, some good some bad.
One of them is to form 'little tribes' (gangs). Usually under one or two people who have a maturity/attitude/ego problem. Its a natural occurrence in nature, these gangs have a 'need' to find conflict to: 1). impose their authority, 2). test their cohesion and limits. 3). reinforce their territory and status. 4). reinforce their 'leaders' control and power - both over the 'gang' and their chosen environment and 'victims. 5). expand their territory and influence to gain even more power and control.
Look at all the world problems, wars and conflicts, all govermnents, regimes etc , they are all 'gangs' of various sizes.
The trick is to use any and all resources available to you to sidetrack, delay, avoid, redirect, (see 'big (life) Aikido' is coming into it ) their attentions. - or - use the much bigger 'gang' you are financing (the police), to sort out the problem.
Lifes too short to let yourself be involved with other peoples 'attitude problems' . Why should you be a victim!
And as mentioned, beware knives - there are some 'nutters' out there who 'want' to stab someone just to know 'what it feels like'. Its all about power - don't play their game if you can avoid it.
Best of luck and stay safe.
Pete

PS: you could always tell (without identifying yourself), another local gang that the gang who are bothering you are better, harder etc. This may get them off your back for a while.
See: The Art of War - Sun Tsu.

Thomas Dixon wrote: It was meant more as a sarcastic joke, than an insult.

I didn't take it that way. If I had, I wouldn't of responded--there's no use in being childish.

Thomas Dixon wrote: This doesn't mean stand there and take your beating, especially if it's in an american school (you get suspened whether you fight or not) however it's important to keep in mind the amount of people and the possibility of weapons being present.

Uh wait a minute...you're telling me that if I'm a high school student, and one or two people catch me in the hall between classes or something, and pound the crap out of me, I'll be suspended if I DON'T fight back?

That's not the way I remember it...if its that way now, I'm glad I don't have any kids...

RT

Yup it's that way around here anyway. If there is an altercation all parties involved, regardless of attacker/defender role, get suspended.

Bronson

Somehow that strikes me as VERY wrong...especially if one doesn't even defend...

Not only is that crazy, surely it is legally actionable.

To expel someone for either defending or not defending?

Now you know they are out to get you.

IMO it comes down to knee-jerk zero tolerance policies. They try to take complicated issues and deal with them in very simple ways. If there is a fight, everyone involved is suspended...period. It doesn't matter if 3 kids jumped 1 kid or 1 kid was threatened with a knife and knocked the assaulter out, if you were involved you are gone.

Bronson

Something I'm wondering about: In Britain are the police charged with the responsiblity to protect people from crime or to investigate and arrest the people who commit a crime? I've known people in the U.S. who have notified police when they were seriously threatened and were told that until something actually happened there was nothing the police could do.

Is assault (the threat of violence with the means to carry out said threat) an arrestable offense by itself?

Bronson

Ron Tisdale wrote: Uh wait a minute...you're telling me that if I'm a high school student, and one or two people catch me in the hall between classes or something, and pound the crap out of me, I'll be suspended if I DON'T fight back? That's not the way I remember it...if its that way now, I'm glad I don't have any kids... RT

Exactly as bronson said.

Straight from the rule book:

"Whoever actively participates in a fight, regardless of 'who threw the first punch' are subject to diciplinary action. (7, 8, 9)"

the numbers are the range of consequences enacted for the offense and they are as follows:

7) Suspension (temporary suspension from school and school related activities)

8) Exclusion (ejection from classes and or school permanently)

9) Referral (student will be reported to the on staff police officer and possible arrest by on staff police officer [most schools have at least 1 on duty police officer in them now] )

But it also states that the person who didnt' start the fight might get a lesser offense (probably a 3 day suspension)

Ron Tisdale wrote: Uh wait a minute...you're telling me that if I'm a high school student, and one or two people catch me in the hall between classes or something, and pound the crap out of me, I'll be suspended if I DON'T fight back? RT

It depends. I am a college student working towards my teaching certificate with some various classroom experience in various schools. In the classroom I have broken up a fight with one clear aggressor, and the other "participant" basically pinned and getting punched.

I sent the aggressor to the office. Both kids got equal suspensions. All the office staff really had time to conclude is "Two kids, fight." It probably didn't help that the office got to hear the aggressor's story first...

In general (not in my particular case), status can also play a role. A kid with the very active, influential, rich, or whatever parents; an honor student; a football star all stand a better chance of getting away with trouble than does a low-achiever with parents who don't care. That is just the sad state of things these days.

But to get my post back on topic, I am a newbie to aikido, and know very little if anything about fighting, conflict avoidence, etc from that perspective. What I will say is inform the police, or whatever authorities are appropriate here. Get a photocopy or whatever police-report, file, receipt, or whatever paperwork they shuffle it away as. If no paperwork, record the date/time and what they told you. Keep that copy in a safe place. Follow the advice of the police, KEEP the paperwork. That way, for better or worse, when in a courtroom, you can prove you acted in good faith.

I also noticed in your profile, that you are 16. I don't know what the age of majority is over in the UK, but you should probably keep your parents appraised of the situation. Authorities may take parents and a young person more seriously than just the young person himself.

Thomas Dixon wrote: Exactly as bronson said. Straight from the rule book: "Whoever actively participates in a fight, regardless of 'who threw the first punch' are subject to diciplinary action. (7, 8, 9)"

This is probably a little off-topic, but "Zero Tolerance" protects the schools, not the students. It's a proven shortcut so that the principal can clear his office of miscreants, quickly. "Zero Tolerance" assumes that if you are involved, you are at fault. Often, no further judgement is made -- no concern (other than medical) is given to the victim or even to figure out which kid is the victim. It's like a manditory sentencing guideline -- once the situation is labeled as a fight, all involved parties are punished; often as an explicit direction in the school board's policies.

If schools are using a "zero-tolerance" policy, it is up to the parents to invoke administrative and/or legal action to protect their children, for (a) assault and battery or (b) redress for suspension (in may cases, student grades and records are negatively impacted by the unfair disciplinary action).

"Zero Tolerance" is like "FAT FREE" foods -- it sounds good, until you realize that they've replaced the fat with something even worse for you. Kids get screwed more often than ever before; I'm not even sure that the deterrance effect of the policy is worth it, because the gangs use it as a way of getting kids out of school (suspended) where they can "take care of them."

I have been a public school teacher in a major urban high school for 11 years. The intent of zero tolerance is to basically say that "It's never ok to result to violence." period. It is a change from the "old school" mentality of sometimes "Boys just need to let off a little steam." I have two things to say about it.
1. School violence is way down from where it is used to be, despite the hyping and sensationalizing that we see on the evening news.
2. I have witnessed many instances of situations where the attackers get much more severe punishment that those on the receiving end. Administrators have a lot of leeway in meeting out the punishments - depending on the circumstances of the fight, number of witnesses, etc. If somebody did not resist they would be very unlikely to receive any punishment. If, on the other hand, they resist by slamming the attackers head into a wall, then they may in fact get the same punishment as the attacker. Administrators have to weigh all these factors - and then make a decision. More serious fights can result in expulsion for up to a year.

Public Schools are becoming more like prisons...with Mandatory Dress Codes, Zero Tolerance, and Police.

Daniel Loughlin wrote: ...they seem to pick on individuals of my friends one at a time ....would this end the recent trouble or amplify it??

My sympathies Daniel. I hope my response doesn't sound flipant, it is not intended in this way, but as a studied reply to a serious problem.

1. conflict situations are always VERY different. No-one now or after the event can judge your response to a situation. Don't ever blame yourself for feeling weak.

2. The psychological aspects of conflict are more difficult to deal with than the physical aspects. Although permanent injury can have very bad psychological consequences, so can feeling that you are 'giving in'.

3. Realise that they are picking on you one at a time because they feel incapable facing you as a group - they are benefiting from your individual fear. This suggests that an aggressive response by yourself towards the 'leader' of the group may stop them (and if you are going to be aggressive you really have to be prepared to go completely and relentlessly crazy).

4. Realise that, within Budo, this is an opportunity - to face your fear and deal with it (whether this is through physical conflict, talking to those threatening you, or circumventing it in some way (I presume they are kids or young men, if they are living at home maybe you can speak to their parents))

They may be carrying knives or other weapons which can be potentially fatal, but remember, fear will destroy your spirit. You have to make your judgements. If you survive it, you will be a stronger person. But whatever you do, don't kick yourself over your decisions. It's all very well training in a dojo, but until you get into a serious conflict it is difficult to understand the meaning of 'embracing death'.

Ian

PS often conflict is about how much energy someone is willing to invest. You have to determine whether they just want to look good (minimum effort) or whether they seriously enjoy fighting (in which case it will probably never resolve).

Move.

Is there any way that the confict could be standardized?
Perhaps in the form of a duel, where you may be able to
resolve the conflict with one, unarmed member of the gang

I don't know if this is the best plan, but if a fight is unavoidable
perhaps there is away to reduce the risk by playing
the "honor" card.

Just an idea to be considered. They want a fight, give them one
that is less likely to get out of hand. You may get beat, but
you are less likely to get killed.

John Hannon wrote: Is there any way that the confict could be standardized? Perhaps in the form of a duel, where you may be able to resolve the conflict with one, unarmed member of the gang I don't know if this is the best plan, but if a fight is unavoidable perhaps there is away to reduce the risk by playing the "honor" card. Just an idea to be considered. They want a fight, give them one that is less likely to get out of hand. You may get beat, but you are less likely to get killed.

They're picking on people they perceive to be weaker than them because they are getting away with it so far.
I don't think they have an "honour card" to play.
This ain't samurai with seconds and rules & stuff.

This would be so much worse: they're prepared and guaranteed to be armed, fired up and they're all going to be there at once so you're way outnumbered when it inevitably goes sour.
So you either get hammered and it won't stop there, you beat the other guy and the rest of them gut you before you can leave (when better than when you're already tired?), or it turns into a full-scale war coz everyone's there, armed and ready for blood?
Or lock in D, Eddie: "All of the above".

Short of them all going to jail or getting nailed themselves by a bigger fish, Tyler suggested the only real solution I've heard so far.

I think your best option would be to simply not "be avaialable" individually. They are picking on you because they get the ego rush for backing down a martial artist, undoubtedly. Never mind it's by outnumbering you. If you "start your own gang" and only become available in force, they will either escalate the situation or back down. Because they refuse to confront you as a group, I think they will back down. They've exhibited that fear already.

After they see you are not trying to take "territory", but just want to go your way in peace, they might find someone else to pick on. If not, at least you got your guys at your back, too.

D

David Peling wrote: "it's never ok to result to violence

Sorry to blunt but that is bunch of bullshit, it is ok to defend yourself when you are being attacked. I think this absurd policy empowers bullies and further scares victims from defending themselves, making them more of a victim and deepening the trauma. Not only are they scared of the bully but now they are also scared of the consequences of defending themsevles, so they now basically helpless and will likely be victims for the rest of their lives or they will eventually lash out.

I will certainly teach my children that violence is perfectly fine in some situations and I will tell them to ignore what school officials tell them.