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06-28-2007, 08:34 AM
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#1
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Controversial but...
Who would be willing to say that Ueshiba`s Aikido was not the best theyd seen?
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06-28-2007, 08:57 AM
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#2
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Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
I don't think that anyone here has any way of knowing directly.
We can look at historical accounts of people being impressed by his aikido, and even taking significant concrete actions (e.g. joining his dojo, supporting him financially, giving him awards, bringing him in as an instructor) as a result. But this is not conclusive proof, because any number of factors (political, personal, etc.) could have motivated those decisions.
There are a smaller number of accounts of him taking and defeating challengers who had proven themselves in other arenas; I don't know them off the top of my head, though, and I'm pretty sure no one has them on tape (leaving us at the mercy of the recollections of, say, some person who now teaches a major style of aikido -- an eminently admirable and respectable individual, but it's hard to show they're free from bias.)
Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-28-2007 at 09:01 AM.
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06-28-2007, 09:02 AM
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#3
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Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
James Wilson wrote:
Controversial but...
Who would be willing to say that Ueshiba`s Aikido was not the best theyd seen?
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By 'Ueshiba' do you mean O'Sensei, Former Doshu, or present?
Domo
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Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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06-28-2007, 09:15 AM
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#4
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Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
didn't they say the same thing about jigoro kano? that his wasn't the best judo either...
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06-28-2007, 09:16 AM
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#5
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Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote:
By 'Ueshiba' do you mean O'Sensei, Former Doshu, or present?
Domo
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I'm guessing he means Morihei Ueshiba, given his iconic status and legends of awesomeness.
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06-28-2007, 09:28 AM
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#6
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
How would we know one way or the other? Why does it matter so much, anyway?
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06-28-2007, 09:38 AM
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#7
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Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
I personally believe some of O-Sensei's students have outstripped him.
Just my opinion.
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06-28-2007, 09:42 AM
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#8
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Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
It is the dream of every teacher to make students better then they are. The same is true of parenthood. If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
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- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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06-28-2007, 09:43 AM
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#9
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Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
How would we know one way or the other? Why does it matter so much, anyway?
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I can think of two reasons why people care so much -- one perhaps sensible, the other silly.
1) We're studying a system created by Ueshiba-sensei. If he was lousy, the system is probably also lousy; if he knew what was up, there's a chance our system has some good methods in it.
2) Some people, when their own ability is questioned, mumble something about how they're "still a beginner" and promptly say, "But O-sensei was unbeatable." I consider this to be essentially a blame-shift.
Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
It is the dream of every teacher to make students better then they are. The same is true of parenthood. If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
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Hear, hear.
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06-28-2007, 09:44 AM
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#10
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Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
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Well said!
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06-28-2007, 09:45 AM
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#11
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 40
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
How would we know one way or the other? Why does it matter so much, anyway?
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errrr...... cos you may have seen Ueshibas aikido and someone elses to compare it to? this being an aikido forum and all??
It matters cos this is an aikido forum to discuss aikido issues and im interested in peoples opinions....
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06-28-2007, 10:09 AM
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#12
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
errrr...... cos you may have seen Ueshibas aikido and someone elses to compare it to?
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I say 'how would we know' because all we seem to have to go on is a very few very short grainy videos that were done as demonstrations, and half of those are when he's pretty elderly. Mostly we have to rely on hearsay.
Last edited by Basia Halliop : 06-28-2007 at 10:16 AM.
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06-28-2007, 10:15 AM
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#13
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Is O-Sensei's aikido the best? It all depends on your perspective. Too many aikidoka join a cult of personality wherein one persons aikido is infinitely better the the next. I've seen aikidoka whose flow was something I admired and even aspired to. Then I've seen others whose external power was something to behold. What of internal power. Can it be truly measured? We all owe O-Sensei a level of gratitude that cannot be measured. The same holds true for Takeda. Without daito-ryu, there would be no aikido. Getting hung up on who is the best and who is the worst keeps us from seeking enlightenment in all corners. We can learn from them all.What we choose to do with those lessons can make our aikido better or worse.
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06-28-2007, 10:20 AM
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#14
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 40
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
I say 'how would we know' because I've never seen a video of him under the age of about seventy, and even those are short and grainy. Perhaps there are earlier videos out there somewhere? But movies were pretty rare before that, and I would have thought people would be showing them off if there was earlier footage. Mostly we can only rely on hearsay.
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hmmmm, fair do`s. I suppose the reason I ask is because many people seem to be intimating that if you dont do "Ueshiba" aikido then youre not doing aikido. I have heard many tales of his prowess but the video footage was less than impressive. Of course all that was, as you say, taken when he was into his 70s. I just wonder if someone did a very different style of aikido to Ueshibas, would anyone be brave enough to say, that is the best aikido theyve seen, including the founders?
Due to the general evolution of aikido as a fighting system, Id feel safe to say that, in this day and age, several people around have better "aikido" than the founders.
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06-28-2007, 10:27 AM
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#15
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 40
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote:
Is O-Sensei's aikido the best? It all depends on your perspective. Too many aikidoka join a cult of personality wherein one persons aikido is infinitely better the the next. I've seen aikidoka whose flow was something I admired and even aspired to. Then I've seen others whose external power was something to behold. What of internal power. Can it be truly measured? We all owe O-Sensei a level of gratitude that cannot be measured. The same holds true for Takeda. Without daito-ryu, there would be no aikido. Getting hung up on who is the best and who is the worst keeps us from seeking enlightenment in all corners. We can learn from them all.What we choose to do with those lessons can make our aikido better or worse.
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please explain what you mean by "flow" and "internal power" in this context.
cheers
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06-28-2007, 10:31 AM
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#16
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
OK, I forgot, there is some footage of him in the 1930s, when he's in his fifties. But it still seems like very little to go on, at least for me.
I say 'why' because I don't understand why some people seem to go almost to the point of religion about O'Sensei. Isn't it enough that he invented and popularized something we very much respect and enjoy without having to believe that he's some kind of demi-god that no mortal human could ever surpass? (That's what I thought you were referring to when you said it was a controversial question.)
To me that isn't even particularly respectful, in a weird kind of way. I respect ordinary humans who have to work hard for what they get and are less than perfect.
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06-28-2007, 10:35 AM
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#17
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 40
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
OK, I forgot, there is some footage of him in the 1930s, when he's in his fifties. But it still seems like very little to go on, at least for me.
I say 'why' because I don't understand why some people seem to go almost to the point of religion about O'Sensei. Isn't it enough that he invented and popularized something we very much respect and enjoy without having to believe that he's some kind of demi-god that no mortal human could ever surpass? (That's what I thought you were referring to when you said it was a controversial question.)
To me that isn't even particularly respectful, in a weird kind of way. I respect ordinary humans who have to work hard for what they get and are less than perfect.
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Right question, wrong guy! Im asking this question precisely because I find the religious hero worship of Ueshiba odd to say the least, a serious hindrance to Aikido to tell the truth.....to many people focus on Aikido that was useful 5o years ago, in my opinion
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06-28-2007, 10:40 AM
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#18
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Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Basia, the earliest video I've seen of O-Sensei was in his 50's also...I can't seem to find it now though, do you know where it is on YouTube?
To be honest, even when he was in his 50's his Aikido wasn't anything radically different. He might have been faster, but he still had the same cooperative ukes, same attacks. It's not like his students hit him harder because he wasn't as old. His challenge matches were also conveniently not taped, so no one will ever know the whole picture.
Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 06-28-2007 at 10:43 AM.
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06-28-2007, 11:01 AM
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#19
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Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
Basia, the earliest video I've seen of O-Sensei was in his 50's also...I can't seem to find it now though, do you know where it is on YouTube?
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http://aikido.magnify.net/item/S5SHCS8VN29SMYJP
Anyway, I continue to believe that a respectful "I don't know" is the best answer to this question.
As for the implicit question of, "OMG DOES AIKIDO WORK?", people should go see if THEIR aikido works, rather than wondering about whether or not they can invent stories about their martial ancestors that might support them thinking they themselves are good.
If someone talks to me about how hardcore Kimura was, and shows me videos of him winning matches, and then they say they do judo too...I'll think, "Okay, this person might be good." If that person then spars with me and throws me a lot, then I'll know they're pretty good. And if someone asks me if judo is good, I can say, "Well, I've met one person who said they did judo, and they were pretty good."
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06-28-2007, 11:06 AM
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#20
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 40
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
http://aikido.magnify.net/item/S5SHCS8VN29SMYJP
Anyway, I continue to believe that a respectful "I don't know" is the best answer to this question.
As for the implicit question of, "OMG DOES AIKIDO WORK?", people should go see if THEIR aikido works, rather than wondering about whether or not they can invent stories about their martial ancestors that might support them thinking they themselves are good.
If someone talks to me about how hardcore Kimura was, and shows me videos of him winning matches, and then they say they do judo too...I'll think, "Okay, this person might be good." If that person then spars with me and throws me a lot, then I'll know they're pretty good. And if someone asks me if judo is good, I can say, "Well, I've met one person who said they did judo, and they were pretty good."
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Who asked, implicitly or explicitly , OMG DOES AIKIDO WORK>? I certainly didnt...
And what does this last paragraph have to do with my question?
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06-28-2007, 11:08 AM
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#21
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Location: swansea wales
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 250
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
It is the dream of every teacher to make students better then they are. The same is true of parenthood. If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
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i like that answer a lot very well put
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06-28-2007, 11:13 AM
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#22
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Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 434
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
James Wilson wrote:
Who asked, implicitly or explicitly , OMG DOES AIKIDO WORK>? I certainly didnt...
And what does this last paragraph have to do with my question?
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Sorry, I may have been mixing threads with the "Ueshiba on YouTube" one. My mind, it is not well-organized.
Although it is somewhat relevant -- for a lot of people, when they think about aikido's effectiveness in the small dark hours of the night, one of the first things that comes to mind is, "Well, O'Sensei was REALLY good, wasn't he?" The search for a hero figure.
The last paragraph was a critique of this method of thinking as needlessly indirect. If judoka everywhere discovered that somehow Kano, Mifune, Kimura, and the like were all frauds and couldn't fight worth a darn (this would require a truly bizarre revolution in what we know about them), they'd probably scratch their heads and think, "Gee, that's funny, because my judo seems to work pretty well."
I don't get the impression that was the question you asked; but it is I think a significant factor to consider when discussing O'sensei with other aikidoka. You're asking our opinion of someone whom most of us have, at one time or another at least, viewed as exemplifying the level of skill we aspire to.
Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-28-2007 at 11:20 AM.
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06-28-2007, 11:46 AM
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#23
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Dojo: Aikibudo Seishinkan
Location: FORT WAYNE, IN
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 106
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Like (probably) most Aikido students today, I never trained with or even met O-Sensei. I only know stories that were passed down and saw some old film clips of him. This is not enough to compare him to others who I have seen.
Even poor Aikido can look good and good Aikido can look fake (especially on video). I've seen some people who look good, but then felt thier technique and it was kind of weak. I've also seen some techniques that looked like they wouldn't work and was surprised when I hit the mat.
In regards to Aikido, I wouldn't want to say that someone was "the best I ever saw". I do know who the best are whose technique I ever felt. But there are also a number of equal reputation that I never have and likely never will get to feel.
I do think that if Ueshiba were not great, not only in technique, but as a teacher, Aikido would have failed and if it still existed would only be a minor school. He never would have been able to produce students like Tohei, Shioda, etc.
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Jim Mc Coy
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06-28-2007, 11:56 AM
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#24
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
I personally believe some of O-Sensei's students have outstripped him.
Just my opinion.
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Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
It is the dream of every teacher to make students better then they are. The same is true of parenthood. If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
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Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
As for the implicit question of, "OMG DOES AIKIDO WORK?", people should go see if THEIR aikido works, rather than wondering about whether or not they can invent stories about their martial ancestors that might support them thinking they themselves are good.
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From what little I understand and have internalized from my study of Aikido, it is that unless I make Aikido "mine"....it's then just some bizarre retro dance style that I'm learning with little practical application or meaning...no matter how much I choose to philosophize or spiritualize about it, or engage in hagiographical obsessions about O'Sensei.
If my Aikido sucks, it's usually because it's my fault (provided I have a qualified & experienced instructor). As such, my understanding of Aikido's modus operandi is to constantly & relentlessly strive for self-improvement...self-mastery. Mastery of: form, technique, application, awareness, patience, etc.
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06-28-2007, 12:08 PM
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#25
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Dojo: Ponca Aikikai
Location: Ponca City, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 131
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best
Theorically the 10th Dan is not given because it belongs only to O Sensei. Tho, not formally, a couple of Uchi Deshi of O Sensei were given the 10th Dan, even tho on the records they remained 8th or 9th.
One of those was Shioda gozo Sensei, which in my opinion is one of the few that developed his Aikido to O Sensei's level. Now saying which one is better is something hard to do.
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