Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.

Here's the other thing, if you are learning your techniques correctly then when someone throws a punch you have moved either inside or outside and put yourself into a position where you control their centerline.

Then even if you miss the "wrist grab" you are in position for any number of techniques.

We were working on this today actually. Control the centerline first when the attack comes and then do whatever technique works rather than trying to force a particular technique.

Ron Tisdale wrote: I should hate myself for responding to this, but...

Don't be so hard on yourself Ron, we all still think you are a good person

Ok, so you´re at a seminar and you don´t get / enjoy what the instructor is teaching. Maybe it all just seems totally silly to you. You have several options: 1. Stay off the tatami during that session. 2. Stay on and try to practise sincerely . 3. Stay on and mess about, having a laugh. However, you do not have the option of getting frustrated and blaming that instructor for your lack of understanding - that is your problem. Train or don´t train. Whining is pointless. Q

I like option #3.

Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.

Geez, mummy, can i grab the wrist? Huh? can I? can I? Please mummy, please? I wanna GRAB THE WRIST (TM)!

Xu, it's therapy time again...

Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.

Whether the punch is speedy or not, GET OUT OF THE WAY! Instead of trying to grab their wrist, go for the shoulder; once you have your hand on the shoulder, it should be (relatively) easy to find their wrist. Throughout all of your technique, you should be MOVING.

Admittedly, seeing someone slooowly throw a punch and have their wrist grabbed on the second try by someone with poor timing can look pretty sorry...

...but you have to start somewhere. Some of the people that walk through the door of your dojo will be out of shape or klutzy, or have no experience with fighting at all. If you don't work with them, they probably won't get a chance to improve.

Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.

So quit aikido and try something that you find more practical. The people in these forums want to discuss aikido not try to convince skeptics.

Hi Aikidoka
I have been training for forty plus years and have had the privilage of seeing aikido before it was influenced for better or worse by we westerners. Perhaps the best advise I was ever given was. DO NOT CHANGE THE ART TO SUIT YOUR EXPECTATIONS LET THE ART CHANGE YOU. Proper training should leave you with a peaceful compasionate nature that you emanate off the mat and a very pragmatic and effective fighting art when needed. TRAIN HARD FIGHT EASY.

KOYO

I find myself frustrated to no end at aikido seminars these days. They're often overcrowded, many people are trying to quickly determine a pecking order by figuring out what rank you are and there's rarely time to work on much stuff at any kind of indepth level.

I've attended a few seminars of late with names that I really respect and would no doubt more greatly enjoy were there time to actually train stuff with them that wasn't based on just the "Try this combo" or "This is how I'd deal with a tackle/punch/kick" (nevermind training the body skills and delivery system is where it's at to gain those skills).

In many cases, if there were a few of us around to try these things against progressive resistance, especially in an aikido context, once we got past the "rank doesn't equate to skill" nonsense, I think people would really begin to learn something. Sadly, without such training, it's reduced to lots of people going post-seminar "Oh yeah, I've always done it that way" or "Yes, my skill is much better", even when demonstrated next-to-squat when they were on the mat.

So, I think for the time being, I'm done with seminars. I'm going to continue to train with the people that I enjoy in smaller settings. People that will test me, not let me get away with things because of perceived skill or "teacher" status. I'll go visit and play with the rough guys from other styles for periodical reality checks, because unfortunately, I am one of those guys that needs to be able to test my aikido to make sure it will work on SKILLED/TRAINED people from other systems that don't necessarily know the correct/acceptible ukemi.

I'm gradually accepting my own status as an elitist/snob, which is probably not good for my character or "spirit", but I'm getting less inclined in my advancing years to maintain the "training as group hug to support the existing status quo" that I see becoming more and more the norm.

Best to everybody . . .

I find myself frustrated to no end at aikido seminars these days. They're often overcrowded, many people are trying to quickly determine a pecking order by figuring out what rank you are and there's rarely time to work on much stuff at any kind of indepth level. .

IMO seminars are not to learn technical details or deep study. Such things you can do back home with your own instructor.
Seminars, particulary with shihans are to show you in what direction your study must go. For effective training you need some kind of general "structure", and they provide it.

I'll go visit and play with the rough guys from other styles for periodical reality checks, because unfortunately, I am one of those guys that needs to be able to test my aikido to make sure it will work on SKILLED/TRAINED people from other systems that don't necessarily know the correct/acceptible ukemi.

More I train; more I'm convinced it has very limited utility for aikido training. For such tests you need to establish some kind of rules, and such rules will deform transmission from Founder. As you don't really know Founder intentions, which are behind every technique, your own judgment (choice of rules) will overwrite his idea.
If you don't care about Founder, that will be another story, but you'd better not call it aikido.

Hi Strike and Grapple,

I suggest you attend one of Ellis Amdur's seminars. I found that the two I attended cut through the BS you mentioned, and provide the opportunities you are seeking. There is a review of the last of his seminars I attended on this forum.

Best,
Ron

Train or don´t train. Whining is pointless. Q

That's right! We won't listen to your dissenting. Aikido is fixed and we are all your seniors both morally and intellectually because we have dedicated even more time than you to not questioning the art.

I may be a little late with this post but I just joined this website.
I have seen film of Osensei demonstrating the no touch techniques.
My second sensei had a fairly hard style but would occasionally
demonstrate a no touch technique and describe it as leading your uke's
mind. I think it is a matter of timing your movement with your uke's
movement when uke attacks. We practiced this slowly at first to learn
the flow of the movement and when the attack from uke was faster it
is more effective. Nothing mystical or magical about it.

sometimes perception or expectations are all that is needed to influence the actions of others!